wf energy HAS to change

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

7 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Scroll above and you will see one. Come on, at least read what people posted in a thread.

Yeah, and people would hate your system and quit the game affecting DE's bottom line.  Wouldn't be balanced with trinity or harrow in the mix either or any frame that can supply energy.  It would be better to simply nerf the powerful nuke abilities currently in the game, but people would *@##$ about that too.  

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

What needs to go are the people constantly crying for player nerfs.

[Proffebolter]

I'm afraid, here the mechanics of energy fail a lot. But also to forget one thing, and that is if a skill is being very powerful, what would have to be done in these cases, to avoid spamming the skills themselves. It is: Or place a CD (Cooldown) to the ability itself, to avoid its abuse of the ability of great power, or that each time the skill is used without waiting for a certain time, the next cost of the skill is 50% to 200% more energy. The more you use, the higher the cost of the skill.

 

And that could prevent the use of spam skills that are supposedly powerful, as in these cases Saryn.

[-QUILL_PETER-]

My solution would be that since Warframes technically according to the Lore get their power from the Tenno, the frames should be getting a passive allowance of energy over time. I would suggest:

1) Remove most forms of energy generation, particularly the cheesiest most egregious forms such as pads and zenurik bubble. Rage and such can stay since they're valid risk/reward.

2) Tie energy generation to Focus school progress, perhaps granting a passive .5 energy for each universal unbound, or something along those lines. Essentially, the more in touch you get your Void nature, the more power you can feed to your frame.

[ShortCat]

1 minute ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Yeah, and people would hate your system and quit the game affecting DE's bottom line.

And you base this conclusion on...your opinion compressed in one line? Also what is "DE's bottom line" exactly?

4 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Wouldn't be balanced with trinity or harrow in the mix either or any frame that can supply energy.

So, because I did not specifically mentioned Trin and Harrow you assumed their functionality should remain untouched, and it did not cross your mind that point 1 or 3 concern them? Even in case those Frames will become more desireable, won't it improve position of support Frames and tilt Warframe more towards a teamplay or a multiplayer experience?

12 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

It would be better to simply nerf the powerful nuke abilities currently in the game, but people would *@##$ about that too.  

There is nothing wrong with nuke powers on their own. What completely breaks Frames with nuke powers is ability spam, which should be regulated with energy. But we have infinite energy, so there are no controll mechanics.

 

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

5 hours ago, mraz641 said:

spamming pizzas and having infinite energy is basicly cheating. if warframe energy is rechargable like operator energy then saryn couldn't spam that fast her abilities and power creep overall would lessen in the game.

Saryn is not the problem. Energy is not the problem. Don't like the game? No one's forcing you to play.

[Troposphere6]

41 minutes ago, Proffebolter said:

I'm afraid, here the mechanics of energy fail a lot. But also to forget one thing, and that is if a skill is being very powerful, what would have to be done in these cases, to avoid spamming the skills themselves. It is: Or place a CD (Cooldown) to the ability itself, to avoid its abuse of the ability of great power, or that each time the skill is used without waiting for a certain time, the next cost of the skill is 50% to 200% more energy. The more you use, the higher the cost of the skill.

 

And that could prevent the use of spam skills that are supposedly powerful, as in these cases Saryn.

This would predicate a need to change how some abilities worked. Guass's mach rush and Valkyrs rip line for instance abilities that can be spammed to increase movement options sticking a cool down on those abilities would break those abilities.  

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, ant99999 said:

Pizzas need to go, I agree. No, I'll say better, they shouldn't be there from the beginning. They don't bring anything that can even remotely be considered positive into the game. They convert your acumulated pile of resources that you farmed elsewhere into raw power here and now. I don't know how something like this can be suitable for a game like Warframe.

I fail to see how this is anything but the exact thing the system was designed for. Warframe is a grindy dragon's hoard game. Collecting more and more resources with no ceiling is by design. And you'll have countless excess resources with nothing to spend them on if this game didn't have some form of one-use consumable

This is also why we need to keep spending Void Traces on radiant relics and have Baro to suck up excess prime parts

[ant99999]

34 минуты назад, TARINunit9 сказал:

I fail to see how this is anything but the exact thing the system was designed for. Warframe is a grindy dragon's hoard game. Collecting more and more resources with no ceiling is by design. And you'll have countless excess resources with nothing to spend them on if this game didn't have some form of one-use consumable

This is also why we need to keep spending Void Traces on radiant relics and have Baro to suck up excess prime parts

There is a lot that's wrong with it.

Gameplay resources shouldn't mix together with crafting materials that you can accumulate elsewhere. This makes it really hard, almost impossible to balance when you can fuel your energy meter directly with Polymer Bundles making lots of the challenges this game throws at you irrelevant.

Making the enemies harder to account for that would create another problem, when doing another mission for resources is required to gain a power relevant for some other mission.

Even now Restores offer you more power for your time spent on resource farming instead of actual gameplay. In pther words no game should ever make you more powerfull proportionally to the time spent on grind. Grind should be a mean of extending ypur playtime, but not of obtaining flat power.

Restores having a timer to build doesn't help either. It creates timegates that can only be mitigated by spending platinum. The only reason I can't call it pay to win is trading.

If you want good examples of resource sinks - Warframe has it (which bothers me a lot tbh). Riven rolls and mod levelling are both good examples.

They both have diminishing returns to slow down your progress and never scale with ammount of resources deposited endlessly.

Another rezource sink from a different game is weapon crafting in Path of Exile. By coincidence this game also has a great example of health/mana consumables using ingame resource - kills instead of crafting resources.

[IIDMOII]

I don't get the desire to nerf energy/abilities.

While I don't have any energy issues with my builds, I still tend to agree with the op. 

If I wanted to sit on energy or cooldowns and rely on pew pew in between, I could just as easily be playing destiny. 

I like that abilities aren't gimmicks that I can press every 2 minutes when pew pew gets boring. I like that there are alternative ways to build and play. 

Lol @ pizzas. Consumables are lame in any game or genre. I havnt ever crafted a single one. If enemies become so strong that you need pizzas, you've already surpassed the efficiency threshold that makes leaving more desirable anyways.

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

In pther words no game should ever make you more powerfull proportionally to the time spent on grind. Grind should be a mean of extending ypur playtime, but not of obtaining flat power.

I'm kind of surprised you play Warframe at all, because that's EXACTLY what Warframe rewards you for. Skill in Warframe barely matters at all, your success -- hell, your progression is determined ENTIRELY by how much you grind. The game teaches you VERY early that if you don't have Serration + elemental damage, or the Endo to upgrade them, you can't kill the enemies fast enough to both keep yourself alive and to complete mission objectives. Even Spy missions (one of the very few sorta skill-based challenges in the game) can be negated entirely by grinding out Limbo, Loki, and Ivara. Hacking terminals would be skill-based, but you can craft ciphers to ignore them. The list goes on

And we apparently don't care. The playerbase has by and large declared this successful game design

10 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Gameplay resources shouldn't mix together with crafting materials that you can accumulate elsewhere. This makes it really hard, almost impossible to balance when you can fuel your energy meter directly with Polymer Bundles making lots of the challenges this game throws at you irrelevant.

Again, I don't agree with you on principle because crafting consumables to take into hard missions is a staple of MMO games for decades (at least in the co-op instances, they try and keep it out of the PvP ones). What I can agree with you on is this one specific example -- Warframe -- being skewed too far in the player's favor

[ant99999]

37 минут назад, TARINunit9 сказал:

I'm kind of surprised you play Warframe at all, because that's EXACTLY what Warframe rewards you for. Skill in Warframe barely matters at all, your success -- hell, your progression is determined ENTIRELY by how much you grind. The game teaches you VERY early that if you don't have Serration + elemental damage, or the Endo to upgrade them, you can't kill the enemies fast enough to both keep yourself alive and to complete mission objectives. Even Spy missions (one of the very few sorta skill-based challenges in the game) can be negated entirely by grinding out Limbo, Loki, and Ivara. Hacking terminals would be skill-based, but you can craft ciphers to ignore them. The list goes on

You misunderstood. Progression can and in case of Warframe, probably should be powered by grind, but raw power should not. There is a difference between a gun using serration and a gun firing bullets that you craft from Endo.

In first case grind for endo is your mean of achieving the power, in second the grind is your power, you power is directly proportional to how much you have grinded. Restores as you can tell belong to the second case right now.

Again, grind by itself doesn't mean anything, it can be good, or bad, grind is just the idea of repeating an action multiple times to gain profit. It is the implementation that matters.

37 минут назад, TARINunit9 сказал:

Again, I don't agree with you on principle because crafting consumables to take into hard missions is a staple of MMO games for decades (at least in the co-op instances, they try and keep it out of the PvP ones). What I can agree with you on is this one specific example -- Warframe -- being skewed too far in the player's favor

I guess everything is relative after all. You can try and make anything into something good and you will succeed eventually. For example if Pizzas had their number limited to 10 per run I would be fine with it, but instead the limit is 200 (practically equals infinity) which is totally a bad implementation. My point however is that if they didn't give you such a massive power boost fuelled solely by crafting materials, there wouldn't be a need to implement any limitations to begin with.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

You misunderstood. Progression can and in case of Warframe, probably should be powered by grind, but raw power should not. There is a difference between a gun using serration and a gun firing bullets that you craft from Endo.

In first case grind for endo is your mean of achieving the power, in second the grind is your power, you power is directly proportional to how much you have grinded. Restores as you can tell belong to the second case right now.

Again, grind by itself doesn't mean anything, it can be good, or bad, grind is just the idea of repeating an action multiple times to gain profit. It is the implementation that matters.

From my perspective this is dangerously close to "distinction without a difference". I guess on principle I see very little difference between "grinding the resources to have a permanent energy boost" (Zenurik) and "grinding the resources to have more temporary energy boosts than I could use in one lifetime" (energy pizzas). But my principles are not universal, you have your principles, and I can at least see what the logic behind your principles is and why it lead to our original debate

[ILOHARTA]

6 hours ago, ant99999 said:

That is another topic, frames complexity, not related to energy system.

nope, at best it's the opposite: "energy management" is a sub-topic of "gameplay", and since I prefer to operate at systemic level I'd say that takes priority over smaller details.

Octavia is more on the funny side. Her mechanics seem so complex that they frighten the players away, but in reality, they are as simple as 'make 3 circles in Mandachord, then press crouch button 3-4 times every half a minute'.

ahah, nice try. If you only crouch, you are losing 4 other buffs, and the keep them on maximized you have to really know what you are doing and do it at the correct rhythm.

[ILOHARTA]

3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

There is nothing wrong with nuke powers on their own. What completely breaks Frames with nuke powers is ability spam, which should be regulated with energy. But we have infinite energy, so there are no controll mechanics.

 

again, that's not the real problem. The real problem is "how easy is to spam overpowered abilities".
I'm totally okay with having overpowered stuff in the game, as long as competence and skill are required to deliver them.

(I also know WF is not the right type of game for that, but just my 2 cents)

[IntheCoconut]

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Good question.

My solution would be a heavy regulated energy economy, so that you can can create clearly predictable controll rooms. For this it would require to:

1. Remove or rebalance most external Energy sources (random Orbs, Energyze, Zenurik, Pizzas, Rage, syndicate wepon effects and abilities).
2. Give every Frame innate Energy regen, it can vary from Frame to Frame; e.g. active casters require more resources.
3. Adjust ability costs and Energy pools; if an ability is intended to be spamed a lot make it cost 1% of base Energy pool, if it should be really powerfull make it 70%.
4. Remove efficiency; replace it with other not abuseable options to gain extra energy, kinda like https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sharpshooter
5. If necessary use other resources to fuel skills, as some designs require this approach.

If you can predict how much energy player will get in 1 minute, you can adjust abilities to their intended skill usage or power.

Yes, "no BFG" was bad wording on my part. I would not deepen the discussion on what is and what is not a BFG, as it is not the main topic here. What I tried to explain is, that new/reworked Frames' abilities are instantly compared to other abilities - can its CC lock down the whole map like Limbo? No, then it has trash CC. Can it outdps Saryn or Mesa? No, then its trash DD. People expect that new additions are at least as strong as already existing ones. If every CC is a BFG, non of them is; if every damage skill is a BFG, non of them is.

 I like your proposed idea because on paper it sounds more balanced than what we have now and might actually require some strategy. It actually reminds me of Elder Scrolls Online, where they also don't have cooldowns, but you must manage your mana/stamina to fuel your abilities. And I really find that system enjoyable. I think Warframe was intended to work that way but it doesn't in its current state. 

My concern is that having such a strict system, like the one you are proposing, would discourage build diversity and further pigeonhole frames into a set role. Let me use Frost to make my concerns clear. Many players bring him just to use his Globe to safeguard a defense point. This is understandable because his Globe is quite successful at protecting a point with minimal negative impact on the rest of team, and it is a relatively cheap ability to use. He can, however, be built differently to serve purposes other than a defense point. With a different build he can provide better overall support for his team through the Icy Avalanche augment, or a cc build that utilizes range and duration to freeze enemies longer and further away, or maximize power to strip armor off enemies to make them more vulnerable. Most of these builds will revolve around the use of Avalanche, a very energy hungry ability. He can do a lot of damage with this ability, but its power is arguably not best used for DPS at higher levels, but makes up for it in CC and utility. My concern is that your proposed changes would make other builds for Frost less viable because of he wont be able to utilize his strengths as often. I worry that he'd only be used for his Globe on a system like the one you are proposing. I could see this happening with many frames, where diverse builds become less viable and are reduced to one-trick-ponies.

My question to you is what are you trying to achieve with this new system? If it is simply to balance the game, I would ask what you would lose in the process. Is build diversity worth losing in exchange for frames that have a more defined role and balance? Or do you think both could still be achieved within your proposed energy rework?

[Liam]

I guess, by you saying this you dont know how to play Saryn? 

Edited October 25, 2019 by anadius

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

And you base this conclusion on...your opinion compressed in one line? Also what is "DE's bottom line" exactly?

So, because I did not specifically mentioned Trin and Harrow you assumed their functionality should remain untouched, and it did not cross your mind that point 1 or 3 concern them? Even in case those Frames will become more desireable, won't it improve position of support Frames and tilt Warframe more towards a teamplay or a multiplayer experience?

There is nothing wrong with nuke powers on their own. What completely breaks Frames with nuke powers is ability spam, which should be regulated with energy. But we have infinite energy, so there are no controll mechanics.

 

Flip sides of the same coin, either you make nuke powers worse so you have to spam them for them to be any good or you make them cost so much energy you can't spam them but they must kill everything.  

DE's bottom line is their profits they make off selling plat and prime access/prime accessories.  If they sell less as a result of a change, that is bad for them business wise and I shouldn't have to tell you why.  

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, IntheCoconut said:

My question to you is what are you trying to achieve with this new system? If it is simply to balance the game, I would ask what you would lose in the process. Is build diversity worth losing in exchange for frames that have a more defined role and balance? Or do you think both could still be achieved within your proposed energy rework?

First of all, thanks for profound reply with valid criticism.
The idea was to improve both, build diversity as well as balance. As we stick strictly to energy economy, nothing would change in regards to range, duration or PS, so that those values should be just as adjustable as they are right now. The most difficult part would be to set the appropraite energy cost for skills, and at this point I cannot give an end value (especailly since I am not a Frost player myself). E.g Frost could have 100 energy and regenerate 5e/second while Avalanche costs 30e. In this case Frost can use Avalanche 3 times with full e-pool or every 6 seconds with an empty e-pool, if energy is not spent on other abilities. Freeze is a cheap spammy skill that could cost 2-3e. It would never drain Frosts e-pool, but prolong the time it takes to collect enouhg energy for more expansive skills.
Build diversity should remain untouched or do I miss an important connection?

[Oreades]

Alternatively, no it doesn't. 

Literally no one is forcing anyone to use energy pizzas, or zenurik, if you don't like them don't use them simple as that and if you don't like them and still use them.... well then you simply have no self control. Which seems to be like 90% of the communities problem.

[ShortCat]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Flip sides of the same coin, either you make nuke powers worse so you have to spam them for them to be any good or you make them cost so much energy you can't spam them but they must kill everything.  

No, it is not the same. Because you simply make skills worse, increase execution time and energy consumption for the same effect, not to mention you doube down on power spam. You also ignore that ability spam is not only integral to nuke abilities and you do not adress those issues at all.

13 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

DE's bottom line is their profits they make off selling plat and prime access/prime accessories.  If they sell less as a result of a change, that is bad for them business wise and I shouldn't have to tell you why.  

So bad changes are bad. And they are bad because you say so.

[ant99999]

5 часов назад, ILOHARTA сказал:

nope, at best it's the opposite: "energy management" is a sub-topic of "gameplay", and since I prefer to operate at systemic level I'd say that takes priority over smaller details.

Yeah, but energy management is not a sub-topic of complexity. Just the example you made in your first reply wasn't the best. There are frames with different levels of energy efficiency. For example Inaros practically doesn't need it at all, while Ash is constantly having problems even with 175% efficiency. And I'll agree here.

But the main point of the OP is that even the least efficient frame can be trivialized using something like pizzas. Whether it is a Chroma or Octavia is not so important.

What you say is a more general subject which is probably better be discussed in another thread.

5 часов назад, ILOHARTA сказал:

ahah, nice try. If you only crouch, you are losing 4 other buffs, and the keep them on maximized you have to really know what you are doing and do it at the correct rhythm.

Ok, I guess crouching while shooting would be a lot harder then.

First of all you practically would only need Nocturne and sometimes damage buffs, no need to keep all 4 up, you just unnecessary spreading your attention from actually shooting things. And you don't even need to follow a rhythm if you have a maximum notes capacity spread evenly through the Mandachord disc. I for example don't even have any volume for the music, it's not needed. You just crouch/shoot/hit/jump a couple times and automatically refresh the buff. (And in addition you are keeping the background music which is by definition better than infinitely repeating Mandachord ringtone)

[SenorClipClop]

I think that while DE is going to continue to rein in significant outliers of power, I doubt they're going to heavily nerf any existing frames because a lot players really like them. (Here I mean that if Saryn were trivializing every mission and was played like 8x more than any other frame, she'd get a balance pass.)

In future frame designs, DE is getting smarter about managing player ability to game the system while still making the frame fun. Gara's damage is effortless and scales high, but it has a short range. Baruuk and Gauss have nice buffs, but you have to work for them. Garuda's ult melts a room, but you still have to hit the enemies with attacks. More than an easily-minmaxed Energy system, our power on those frames is limited by skill and attention to detail. Some frames may get updates toward this end (like Ember) but for now I imagine frames like Mesa are going to keep being Mesa.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

15 hours ago, mraz641 said:

spamming pizzas and having infinite energy is basicly cheating. if warframe energy is rechargable like operator energy then saryn couldn't spam that fast her abilities and power creep overall would lessen in the game.

No, it doesnt "have to change". Get over it.

 

Also, feel free to not use pizzas/zenurik.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

10 hours ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

The usual comment from the scared kid.

It's a fact. You're basically going to a restaurant (developer) and demanding that they turn their cheeseburgers (warframe) into salads (a different game) because YOU think it would be "better".