Melee Crit Chance Rivens and why they now suck.

[Koed]

I will talk about prior to update 26: Old Blood, and before and after update 26.0.7. Riven data is pulled from https://semlar.com/rivencalc/ohma/21 , where we look at the Ohma, Amphis and Venka (I don't have a riven for either, it's just examples). Ohma existed before update 26, has a neutral disposition of 1.00, so imo that gives the most balanced look at why Crit Chance rivens now suck!

 

Old Blood Rush: BR used to scale with CC mods. The Ohma has 15% CC. Add OLD true steel of 60% CC = 24% CC. 24% CC is now what would scale with BR meaning CC mods and rivens were quite good.

New Blood Rush: BR now doesn't scale with CC mods. So if I use a CC mod, that will just add a flat bonus, and BR will ONLY SCALE with the base CC of the weapon. Example - Ohma with 3x Combo with BR will be at 33% CC. An increase of 18%. Adding CC mods won't change that increase. With the old True Steel it would simply add a flat 9% to that (15*0,6) + 33% = 42% CC.

 

Just looking at the Blood Rush change, it's quite clear immediately that CC mods and rivens took a hit from update 26. But then comes update 26.07...
This update buffed "Steel mods" significantly - True Steel: 60% -> 120%. Sacrificial Steel 88% -> 220%.

 

Now here's the problem - no changes were made to CC for rivens!
Going back to Ohma. Having 3 buffs and a curse (+3-1) on your riven could grant you an absolute max of 92,8% CC. If you had that stat on your riven before update 26 and 26.0.7 - that was quite good! It scaled with BR and the bonus of 92,8% was still about the same as you could get from a stand alone mod.
Having that riven stat now would honestly be terrrible! Why?
It no longer scales with BR but also Sacrificial Steel now grants a bonus of 220% CC! When we are modding our Crit Melee Weapons there's practically no wiggle room with mods - there are 6/7/8 stable mods depending on how you look at it, so when we get a riven for a Crit Melee Weapon? Usually we kinda have to replace a stable mod for it. So to have a CC riven now is like replacing a mod with a weaker version of it, which just blows my mind how this was not thought through. You would be much better of with Melee Damage bonus of max 169,8%, Crit Damage of 92,8%, Elemental Damage of 92,8%, Status Chance of 92,8%, Attack Speed of 56,6% etc, because these all rival of even outshine their stand alone mods!

 

The Fix: Sacrificial Steel was buffed by 2,5 (88*2,5=220) - buff the numbers on rivens by that too. 92,8% highest possible CC on Ohma? 92,8*2,5=232 CC. Seems fair to me. That the HIGHEST possible number for a neutral disposition riven. 

Lets do other examples: 
Lowest disposition melee weapon - Venka: Highest possible CC? 46,4%! (Honestly, it was bad before but looking at "Steel Buffs" and lack of BR scaling this is now a joke!) Apply 2,5 buff: 46,4*2,5=116,25 CC. It still doesn't even compete with True Steel with the highest possible roll!
Highest Disposition Melee Weapon - Amphis: 139,2%. Apply buff. 139,2*2,5=348 CC. Is that a lot? Relativly, but keep in mind - no longer scales with BR, so it's a flat increase, so it's not even great.

One last thing to put things into perspective: Gladiator Might grants 60% Crit Damage and 10% CC per combo multiplier. 12X Combo Multiplier is now super easy to maintain and honestly 99% of players don't use heavy attacks - they keep the 12X multiplier. So in reality Gladiator Might grants 60% CD and 120% CC (10% x 12X combo multiplier). This now competes over the Riven Slot on your Crit Melee Weapon with Neutral Disposition and actually outshines weak disposition weapons! Look at the Venka again: Max of 46,4% CC, 46,4% CD and 84,9% Melee Damage. These are again the HIGHEST POSSIBLE numbers. A riven like that would have been very valuable before update 26 and 26.0.7. Now? It is actually on par with a Gladiator mod that cost maybe 5p in trade chat. 

Imagine you have some rifle rivens that give 160% Damage increase. Those are good in relation to Serration's 165% bonus. Then one day DE decides to buff Serration. It now grants 800% damage increase. How do you feel about your damage rivens now? You think you would rather have another bonus now?

We are no strangers to changes and nerfs in WF. The changes to BR were terrible for CC rivens, but the "Steel Mod" changes is honestly insulting. I hope it's a case of a really bad oversight, because look at Amalgam Ripkas True Steel. It didn't get changed. Still sits at 75% CC....

I hope DE will look at this promptly.

Edit: Update 26.1 just released with this change: Doubled the amount of Critical Chance on Melee Rivens and gave the Critical Chance 2x for Heavy Melee. I still think 2,5x would have been the way to go but atleast we got something. 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Koed

[Xardis]

Nope, not 2.5, take into account the numbers are based on normal mods, not primed/umbra, normal true steel was buffed x2, so stay with that, also buff all other cc mods in melee x2 excluding BR.

[Uhkretor]

"oh noes, my build sucks now" I did tell people to avoid gimmicking their builds, but no one believed me...

 

... Anyway, Did you see the Catchmoon usage %% on the Devstream 132? (I believe its that's the one... or maybe it was 133... can't remember..)

... Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot. And "across the board" includes both old and Mk1 weaponry.

 

I think your only problem, and the only problem for many, is that Critical Chance bonus was increased for Sacrifical Steel and True Steel mods only.

Considering that you're MR22, I'm pretty sure you can adapt to the changes, so I'll say it again, Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot.

[Koed]

3 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

"oh noes, my build sucks now" I did tell people to avoid gimmicking their builds, but no one believed me...

 

... Anyway, Did you see the Catchmoon usage %% on the Devstream 132? (I believe its that's the one... or maybe it was 133... can't remember..)

... Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot. And "across the board" includes both old and Mk1 weaponry.

 

I think your only problem, and the only problem for many, is that Critical Chance bonus was increased for Sacrifical Steel and True Steel mods only.

Considering that you're MR22, I'm pretty sure you can adapt to the changes, so I'll say it again, Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot.

I thought I was pretty elaborate, but apparently I need to make my point even clearer to you.

You have a riven that grants 70% Toxin damage. DE decides, hey, toxin mods are too weak. We will buff them. Now toxin mods grant 10000% Toxin damage. Meanwhile your Riven, still only grants 70% Toxin damage. Now what do you think happens to everyone in Warframe who has a Riven with toxin damage? It becomes underpowered and worthless and now everyone don't want toxin rivens anymore, because they are so weak compared to regular mods. They look for different stats. It doesn't make people look to other weapons or different builds, it simply make them look for different riven stats, because DE decided out of the blue, to change the value for the whole riven economy. Just because. All your work for your riven down the drain. Not because the weapon you used was OP or because the disposition for your weapon was too high. No, just because. 

So no, you cannot compare this to Catchmoon in any way or form. Anyone could see that was a problem from looking at that graph. 

[Koed]

21 minutes ago, Xardis said:

Nope, not 2.5, take into account the numbers are based on normal mods, not primed/umbra, normal true steel was buffed x2, so stay with that, also buff all other cc mods in melee x2 excluding BR.

Look at the bigger picture - doesn't scale with BR anymore. In all honesty, if we were to get the same value out of crit mods it should be multiplied by A LOT more. Like 5x. So no. Not 2x. The bare minimum is to compare to Sacrificial Steel. 

[vaarnaaarne]

BR scaling off modified crit was and would be a complete balance catastrophe, and shouldn't be re-instated.

[Uhkretor]

14 minutes ago, Koed said:

So no, you cannot compare this to Catchmoon in any way or form.

... Since Riven mods adjustment is currently based on a weapon's popularity and that they're tied to individual weapons...

... Yes, I can. And I will, as many times as I see fit.

 

15 minutes ago, Koed said:

You have a riven that grants 70% Toxin damage. DE decides, hey, toxin mods are too weak. We will buff them. Now toxin mods grant 10000% Toxin damage. Meanwhile your Riven, still only grants 70% Toxin damage. Now what do you think happens to everyone in Warframe who has a Riven with toxin damage? It becomes underpowered and worthless and now everyone don't want toxin rivens anymore, because they are so weak compared to regular mods.

I would stay with that 70% Toxin Damage riven if the weapon itself has enough performance to deal with the lvl100 maximum intended that everything is adjusted to, and admitted by Steve that the game is completely broken beyond lvl100 and I can fit something else to complement the weapon build, since using anything else that would deal such an amount of Toxin bonus (10000% pfft, you wouldn't even know what to do with it, might as well make it 120 Mod Capacity requirement while you're giving off stupid %% numbers just to bloat your argument even more) would specifically state that you would need a broken build to actually play the game.

 

The previous way that Blood Rush worked was broken by nature. Condition Overload, although an off-topic mod, was also broken, as was Dunging Strike. So, for a MR22 with almost 2.3k total time played, admitting that you need to be broken and have broken stuff in order to play Warframe... Doesn't fit.

... Besides, the buff to those mods include things they didn't have before.... You know, that x2 bonus for Heavy Attacks?

No, seriously... Adapt. I wouldn't change your build, but I'm pretty sure you can adapt your build.

[Xardis]

39 minutes ago, Koed said:

Look at the bigger picture - doesn't scale with BR anymore. In all honesty, if we were to get the same value out of crit mods it should be multiplied by A LOT more. Like 5x. So no. Not 2x. The bare minimum is to compare to Sacrificial Steel. 

Ok, so you want normal True Steel to have +300% cc? To quadruple base cc? With one mod?

As sad the state of new math (and complete collapse of build diversity) is for me, I wouldnt come close to what you want. The only thing "needed" is to buff normal +cc effect in melee overall x2. That would bring up the value of cc in rivens, and Im almost certain that buffing only those 2 mods was rushed decision and they forgot about all other mods, so I can expect that to happen, but x5? Never. Demending it will not help either.

If you want to talk about other aspects of new melee, sure, I would like to have old infinite combo counter back, with combo steps not requireing exponentialy more hits, but linearly (10xcombo level for next level for example) and heavy attacks to not cost whole combo, but a set ammount, like 2 combo levels. That would actualy be fun. I would also want the 1st draft of CO changes implemented, not what we have right now.

All in all, I am forced to admit it, DE did balance things to work better at lower levels and for them to work decently up to reasonably high levels (1h into arbie). But at the cost of going longer in said endurence, the worst part now, are stance changes. Some specific changes made a lot of stances objectively worse, and thats not even taking into account the uselessness of lifted status proc.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Xardis

[Koed]

2 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... Since Riven mods adjustment is currently based on a weapon's popularity and that they're tied to individual weapons...

... Yes, I can. And I will, as many times as I see fit.

 

I would stay with that 70% Toxin Damage riven if the weapon itself has enough performance to deal with the lvl100 maximum intended that everything is adjusted to, and admitted by Steve that the game is completely broken beyond lvl100 and I can fit something else to complement the weapon build, since using anything else that would deal such an amount of Toxin bonus (10000% pfft, you wouldn't even know what to do with it, might as well make it 120 Mod Capacity requirement while you're giving off stupid %% numbers just to bloat your argument even more) would specifically state that you would need a broken build to actually play the game.

 

The previous way that Blood Rush worked was broken by nature. Condition Overload, although an off-topic mod, was also broken, as was Dunging Strike. So, for a MR22 with almost 2.3k total time played, admitting that you need to be broken and have broken stuff in order to play Warframe... Doesn't fit.

... Besides, the buff to those mods include things they didn't have before.... You know, that x2 bonus for Heavy Attacks?

No, seriously... Adapt. I wouldn't change your build, but I'm pretty sure you can adapt your build.

I could counter that argument simply by saying enemies also got their health buffed by 10x in line with toxin mod buffs or the overall enemy levels got increased across the starchart. What then? Still gonna use use your underpowered toxin riven? Regardless of my counter argument you are completely oblivious to the point. When I say 10000%, I obviously don't consider that a real possibility - I thought that would be fairly obvious. Was simply painting the picture more clear to you, but again, you failed to see the point. 

Im not arguing against Catchmoon, Condition Overload, Blood Rush or anything being or not being OP. Haven't said a single word in that regard.

Anyway, my last reply to you - I don't have a problem with people disagreeing, but you are just trying to sound smart, but you are just talking out your rear unfortunately.

[Koed]

5 minutes ago, Xardis said:

Ok, so you want normal True Steel to have +300% cc? To quadruple base cc? With one mod?

As sad the state of new math (and complete collapse of build diversity) is for me, I wouldnt come close to what you want. The only thing "needed" is to buff normal +cc effect in melee overall x2. That would bring up the value of cc in rivens, and Im almost certain that buffing only those 2 mods was rushed decision and they forgot about all other mods, so I can expect that to happen, but x5? Never. Demending it will not help either.

If you want to talk about other aspects of new melee, sure, I would like to have old infinite combo counter back, with combo steps not requireing exponentialy more hits, but linearly (10xcombo level for next level for example) and heavy attacks to not cost whole combo, but a set ammount, like 2 combo levels. That would actualy be fun. I would also want the 1st draft of CO changes implemented, not what we have right now.

You say 300% like it's some crazy number. Mate, BR grants 720% CC... So yes, for Crit Chance mods outside of Blood Rush to have any real use, I don't see a problem with True Steel granting 300%. You think you would have room for it in your build? I sure won't in 99% of my melee crit weapon builds. Not gonna replace BR's 720% CC with 300% True Steel just because I need to hit some enemies to reach it. Literally takes 2 minutes.

Crit weapon: Primed Pressure Point, Berzerker, Drifting Contact, Blood Rush, Organ Shatter, Primed Reach, Toxin mod, Electric Mod. Where exactly do you want to place Crit Chance mods?

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

5 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

"oh noes, my build sucks now" I did tell people to avoid gimmicking their builds, but no one believed me...

 

... Anyway, Did you see the Catchmoon usage %% on the Devstream 132? (I believe its that's the one... or maybe it was 133... can't remember..)

... Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot. And "across the board" includes both old and Mk1 weaponry.

 

I think your only problem, and the only problem for many, is that Critical Chance bonus was increased for Sacrifical Steel and True Steel mods only.

Considering that you're MR22, I'm pretty sure you can adapt to the changes, so I'll say it again, Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot.

You must be in the wrong thread or you just can't process the amount of information he posted, or, worse, the simple premise of this thread, so i'll make it look like a recipe so you can understand:

EVERY critical chance source was irrelevant compared to blood rush.

We asked them to make the other critical chance sources, rivens included, a viable alternative.

Some critical chance sources were forgotten, one of them being rivens.

Rivens have enough useless stats as is, we don't need another one.

It makes absolutley no sense to have a riven stat be vastly inferior to the non riven counterpart; such isn't the case with ANY of the other stats, why should it be here? 

This is not a riven thread, you can take your grief and envy elsewhere, it's a balance thread.

Riven stats are ALL. A.L.L. based on a non riven counterpart. 

That isn't the case with critical chance anymore, which is the ONLY stat know to be significantly inferior to the other sources.

Lastly, no one knows you, you didn't tell anything to anyone, and that's good, because you don't seem to understand the game much, nor the meaning of the word gimmick.

There's no adaptation to go through, it's an obvious oversight they'll fix.

Edited November 16, 2019 by (PS4)cdzbrbr

[Xardis]

9 hours ago, Koed said:

You say 300% like it's some crazy number. Mate, BR grants 720% CC... So yes, for Crit Chance mods outside of Blood Rush to have any real use, I don't see a problem with True Steel granting 300%. You think you would have room for it in your build? I sure won't in 99% of my melee crit weapon builds. Not gonna replace BR's 720% CC with 300% True Steel just because I need to hit some enemies to reach it. Literally takes 2 minutes.

Crit weapon: Primed Pressure Point, Berzerker, Drifting Contact, Blood Rush, Organ Shatter, Primed Reach, Toxin mod, Electric Mod. Where exactly do you want to place Crit Chance mods?

You do realise that right now, if you dont go into endurence, you dont need BR? And that was before True Steel buff, yes, its sad that BR got hit, but the fact that BR in itself requires a dedicated playstyle is costly. For anything in the starchart I dont use BR, I have +CC +CD Riven, I dont use Drifting Contact, I use CO there. And that is sufficient power, even for 5th level Lich missions. So yes, in most cases I would take +120% CC, and 300% would be overkill to say the least. On weapons that dont cost you ammo or reload speed, and are as fast as melee, crit has no place to be buffed that much.

[Andele3025]

Rivens are not balanced based on base game balance. DE stated so themselves.

Not that it matters because DE will revert True Steel and Sac Steel. They have to if they have any sense of what the problem is (BR isnt multiplicative to total). Especially as current version of the mods still doesnt do anything slot efficient with BR and only buffs heavy attack initial combo spam setups.

[Koed]

2 hours ago, Xardis said:

You do realise that right now, if you dont go into endurence, you dont need BR? And that was before True Steel buff, yes, its sad that BR got hit, but the fact that BR in itself requires a dedicated playstyle is costly. For anything in the starchart I dont use BR, I have +CC +CD Riven, I dont use Drifting Contact, I use CO there. And that is sufficient power, even for 5th level Lich missions. So yes, in most cases I would take +120% CC, and 300% would be overkill to say the least. On weapons that dont cost you ammo or reload speed, and are as fast as melee, crit has no place to be buffed that much.

If you wanna play with an inferior build like that - more power to you. But I don't think that should exclude balancing mods, so we can make more viable builds. Typically people will choose the stronger mods - it's not like it's "more fun" to use True Steel over BR, so I'm confident the vast majority of the player base are gonna use builds more akin to what I described with BR. Hammer weapons i.e grant 4 "combo points" pr. hit meaning, with True Steel at 120%, you hit an enemy 10 times, and you are at 3XCombo Multiplier. Now BR is just as strong as True Steel and will only get stronger. Again, if you think 10 hits is too big a hurdle for you to overcome, because True Steel is good enough or you don't do "endurance" missions, more power to you, but you are objectivly giving yourself a handicap for no apparent reason. 

Anyway, this is besides my OP, as I merely want CC mods, including rivens, to be viable. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Koed

[Raikh]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Xardis:

Nope, not 2.5, take into account the numbers are based on normal mods, not primed/umbra, normal true steel was buffed x2, so stay with that, also buff all other cc mods in melee x2 excluding BR.

The numbers are based partially on primed mods. Melee damage on a riven is absed on PPP, rnage is based on P Reach (although they screwed up the conversion a little with U26).
Crit stats on secondaries also take the primed mods as base.

CC for melee doesn't even use True Steel, it uses a 90% base, not a 60% base.

Elements don't have primed vlaues as there is only one primed mod for an element for each weapon type.

It can also be the case that a mod wasn't released when the rivens were initially released and they simply didn't update riven roll values, like is the case now.

CC on rivens should totally be based on Sacrifical Steel, not necessarily with the setbonus, but surely without. Because thats what a riven stat competes with. There is virtually no reason to ever use True Steel for a player that uses Rivens. RIvens are one of the least accessible things out there and should comepte with the best version of the mods, not the outdated ones that get replaced before the player hits the MR to be able to use all the rivens.

It also should include the double heavy attack mechanic as thats what gives these mods a place. For just normal melee gameplay crit mods are still not really viable unless you can't utilize Blood Rush for whatever reason, which will only apply to a select few weapons and exlated melees.

 

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

4 hours ago, Raikh said:

The numbers are based partially on primed mods. Melee damage on a riven is absed on PPP, rnage is based on P Reach (although they screwed up the conversion a little with U26).
Crit stats on secondaries also take the primed mods as base.

CC for melee doesn't even use True Steel, it uses a 90% base, not a 60% base.

Elements don't have primed vlaues as there is only one primed mod for an element for each weapon type.

It can also be the case that a mod wasn't released when the rivens were initially released and they simply didn't update riven roll values, like is the case now.

CC on rivens should totally be based on Sacrifical Steel, not necessarily with the setbonus, but surely without. Because thats what a riven stat competes with. There is virtually no reason to ever use True Steel for a player that uses Rivens. RIvens are one of the least accessible things out there and should comepte with the best version of the mods, not the outdated ones that get replaced before the player hits the MR to be able to use all the rivens.

It also should include the double heavy attack mechanic as thats what gives these mods a place. For just normal melee gameplay crit mods are still not really viable unless you can't utilize Blood Rush for whatever reason, which will only apply to a select few weapons and exlated melees.

 

Couldn't agree more.

You're the first to comment on these threads with actual accurate knowledge.

I refrained from saying crit stat on rivens were based on a hypothetical primed true steel (90%) as not to confuse people that didn't know much to begin with.

So much so that critical chance shares the same value range as critical damage. (and status chance)

Anyways, excellent suggestion.

I'd just add another suggestion that would keep the critical chance stat at the same exact spot as before:

* Make it based on a value that's 50% stronger than true steel, 180% and retain the heavy attack double thing.

And if anyone feels that any of that OP, then all sources of critical chance should be looked at as a whole, not just one.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by (PS4)cdzbrbr

[ArcKnight9202]

If they changed Rivens to where they rolled the same way as the revised critical chance mods, plus included the double bonus for heavy attacks, wouldn't that give some weapons 800+% critical chance on heavy attacks? Not to mention a base of 400+% critical chance on regular attacks?

Fragor Prime with a hypothetical +400% critical bonus would give it 200% critical chance, and 400% for heavy attacks at 0 combo counter.

Maybe I'm just extremely tired and don't understand correctly, but that seems a little excessive to me. I wouldn't even need to consider heavy attacks at all in most situations which is surely not what DE is aiming for. It seems more like Poor/Lazy Tenno's Blood Rush.

Edited November 17, 2019 by ArcKnight9202

[Arkandae]

il y a 55 minutes, ArcKnight9202 a dit :

If they changed Rivens to where they rolled the same way as the revised critical chance mods, plus included the double bonus for heavy attacks, wouldn't that give some weapons 800+% critical chance on heavy attacks? Not to mention a base of 400+% critical chance on regular attacks?

Fragor Prime with a hypothetical +400% critical bonus would give it 200% critical chance, and 400% for heavy attacks at 0 combo counter.

Maybe I'm just extremely tired and don't understand correctly, but that seems a little excessive to me. I wouldn't even need to consider heavy attacks at all in most situations which is surely not what DE is aiming for. It seems more like Poor/Lazy Tenno's Blood Rush.

For regular attacks on a weapon like fragor prime it wouldn't be an issue. A +500% cc mod would give it 200% more crit, this + blood rush would increase damage by ~60%. There are better/equivalent options. For the ohma (OP exemple), the damage increase would be closer to 100%.

And for fragor prime heavy attacks it would be ~122%. Killing blow is 120% more damage and I still don't see many people using heavy attacks. Heavy attacks damage isn't the problem, it's the mobility, the price to pay, the attack speed, the attack not hitting the target because it hits the side or because you got knockdowned when using it, etc

Edited November 17, 2019 by Arkandae

[Raikh]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ArcKnight9202:

If they changed Rivens to where they rolled the same way as the revised critical chance mods, plus included the double bonus for heavy attacks, wouldn't that give some weapons 800+% critical chance on heavy attacks? Not to mention a base of 400+% critical chance on regular attacks?

Fragor Prime with a hypothetical +400% critical bonus would give it 200% critical chance, and 400% for heavy attacks at 0 combo counter.

Maybe I'm just extremely tired and don't understand correctly, but that seems a little excessive to me. I wouldn't even need to consider heavy attacks at all in most situations which is surely not what DE is aiming for. It seems more like Poor/Lazy Tenno's Blood Rush.

Assuming the crit crit chance base for a riven would be icnreased from 90% to 220%. Then you would need a riven with a ~1.4+ disposition running only two stats with a negative. Fragor in particular has 0.96 so can't even get close to 400% from that.

And then again whats the issue? RIght now Fragor P. can get 660% from Blood Rush and the combo counter is still incredibly easy to build and maintain. 400% woiuldn't be optimal. Maybe in some niche cases for specific weapons or maybe some people would just run it so they can ignore the combo counter and take the loss. Maybe some people will finally see a reason to stack crit again as it is right now not worth the slot on a riven, even the 220% are not really looking good over other options when Blood Rush is already there.

Blood Rush is also a much larger heavy attack deterrent than being able to ignore the combo counter with a 400% CC chance mod, because you don't want to lose the combo counter if you run blood rush. Heavies in general are rather questionable. The damage is there but they play jsut terrible and aren't very practical. The combo coutner and heavies are the flawed part here. If it wasn't for Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds people wouldn't be running Drifting Contact anymore and without that maintaing a combo is a lot more difficult and would put heavies out of business even more. You pretty much have to build for heavies if you want to use them and that cripples normal melee damage. There is a "trick" with Focus energy and Zenurik to get to max combo efficency in a normal build but that build still wants Blood Rush.

 

Almost seems to me like some people are just freaking out when they see a higher number on a mod than Point Strike and just don't register Blood Rush as the 660% it provides because it isn't literally printed on the mod card. Suddenly 200-300% melee crit chance is crazy stuff when people before U26 could get like a 1000% crit chance on a melee if they wanted to,

Melee mods are vastly different from primary and secondary weapon mods. You can't compare them directly. You can't put them to the same standards. If you want to do that you would have to do another complete overhaul on melee weapon stats.

[C4Mingus]

The problem in my opinion is how DE deliver the "new" things in the game. Old Blood introduces new relics that gives, besides the new parazon mods and exilus adapter, kuva and rivens basic speaking. Cool? Lets farm some rivens????

And after 2 years playing this a lot to build my rivens colection they made a change that destroyed all my work in all melee weapons at the same time. After a 5 minutes download: boom!!! .... 1.000 hours of gameplay became garbaje.

There is a lot of things they could done ... a lot of ways to balance the spin to win ...

And now what i supose to do? Farm more rivens? Reroll all? Dont use them at all?

I like this game a lot ... Only play this for 4 years already, but infortunatly if they dont fix this i will give up playing warframe. Its disrespectful to the community nerf all this weapons and mods to the ground.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2019-11-15 at 6:31 PM, Uhkretor said:

"oh noes, my build sucks now" I did tell people to avoid gimmicking their builds, but no one believed me...

 

... Anyway, Did you see the Catchmoon usage %% on the Devstream 132? (I believe its that's the one... or maybe it was 133... can't remember..)

... Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot. And "across the board" includes both old and Mk1 weaponry.

 

I think your only problem, and the only problem for many, is that Critical Chance bonus was increased for Sacrifical Steel and True Steel mods only.

Considering that you're MR22, I'm pretty sure you can adapt to the changes, so I'll say it again, Rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage across the board, by offering an alternative of combining two mod effects, that a player wants to use, into a single mod slot.

They don't level out weapon usage though, because weapons with bad stats will still have bad stats even with a great riven, because riven stats are multiplicative.  5% CC will never end up as a usable CC% regardless of riven roll.  Weapons with no CC/CD no status and low base damage like the Hind are never going to level out due to a riven, even a perfectly rolled riven.  The only thing rivens ACTUALLY accomplish is pushing the limits of already good weapons.  With few exceptions, if it's usable in sortie 3 with a riven, it's usable without.  If it's not, it never will be.  Rivens do NOT do what they intended, so arguing from the point that rivens are supposed to level out weapon usage holds no water.

[SenorClipClop]

I don't know if anyone's posted this, but the Devs are planning to change crit chances on Melee Rivens in a future update (read the 0.8 patch notes). I think they'd rather roll out buffs slowly than buff too much too fast and have to reign it back in.

But yeah, changes are coming.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

Am 17.11.2019 um 10:44 schrieb Arkandae:

 Killing blow is 120% more damage and I still don't see many people using heavy attacks

Because it's just base damage. If you compare killing blow with amalgam organ shatter you get more out of amalgam organ shatter the moment you have a 54 or more cc on a heavy attack.

Am 16.11.2019 um 01:34 schrieb Koed:

 BR grants 720% CC.

BR grants up to 660% CC at 12x combo, BR stacks are combo counter-1

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

On 2019-11-17 at 5:48 AM, ArcKnight9202 said:

If they changed Rivens to where they rolled the same way as the revised critical chance mods, plus included the double bonus for heavy attacks, wouldn't that give some weapons 800+% critical chance on heavy attacks? Not to mention a base of 400+% critical chance on regular attacks?

Fragor Prime with a hypothetical +400% critical bonus would give it 200% critical chance, and 400% for heavy attacks at 0 combo counter.

Maybe I'm just extremely tired and don't understand correctly, but that seems a little excessive to me. I wouldn't even need to consider heavy attacks at all in most situations which is surely not what DE is aiming for. It seems more like Poor/Lazy Tenno's Blood Rush.

You'd be sacrificing 2 slots for critical chance which is suboptimal, replacing either the crit riven or the steel mod for another would yield better results.

So, to answer your question, no, 800% crut chance is not excessive, not if you're comparing damage anyways. At that point adding another source of damage would yield better results, such as a primed fever strike, another crit damage mod, etc.

While we're at it, maximum blood rush bonus is attainable in less than 10 seconds, so I'm not quite sure how you can say that the situational bonus on bloodrush is any less strong than the lower upfront critical chance

Lastly, heavy attacks are slow, unspammable, inaccurate, etc, etc.

And actually lastly for real, it makes absolutely no sense to single out one stat to be vastly inferior on rivens when compared to the non riven counterpart.

There are enough useless stats you can roll for currently, if you want them, there's a lot of them for you.

 

[BR31]

They need change, either something extra for using slides or 
delete this stat from riven pool completely