Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Cubewano]

11 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

   She will still be powerful but the change to her spores will crush her. You'll just see the community rotate to another warframe. Nerfing saryn isn't the answer here. Simply put, saryn isn't all too powerful. It's the content that's too easy. As I said before she needs harder content to shine and show where her weaknesses lie. If your problem is with removing entire rooms then Volt and Mirage should be something you have issues with too being capable of deleting a room faster than saryn in some cases.

   The only range nerf I'd say is ok on her is a large radius around saryn where spores can survive and deal damage. Outside this radius spores cannot spread but this would still need to be a large LARGE radius. I'm still going to stick to saying she doesn't need a rework but the game does

So you would rather ask DE to redesign the entire game to nerf Saryn, a monumentally bigger ask that can lead to a massive amount of balance problems for others frames, rather than just directly nerfing Saryn all because of semantics? Do you really think that is reasonable? 

Saryn being made less overwhelming would hardly ruin her as a viable frame, you could literally removal all damage from her spores and just leave them as a armor strip and she'd still be one of the most potent frames in the game, just as an extremely deadly debuffer. And no being made more reasonable wouldn't just have her die off otherwise you'd have to believe only one or two frames are ever in rotation a time to begin with, since there's always a best pick, even if its only marginally better. Reality is the only real thing that prompts large usage changes is when there are massive gaps between the effectiveness of tools, and unless DE completely broke her and left her to rot which isn't something they've ever truly done, even in the earlier days of very harsh nerfing, that just isn't a realistic outlook. And as for other nuke frames, if they pose the same problem as Saryn then yes they should be addressed as well, but that doesn't change that Saryn is worth being addressed as well, and putting her off until the rest are done isn't realistic, helpful, or practical. 

As for what can be nerfed, plenty of people have posed ideas, from removing damage on her spores, to changing their element type, I did really like the idea in the stream about making spores not self tick and instead charge damage that Saryn must then burst with other abilities to cause damage which could work. I don't think just slightly limiting her spore range would work on its own, especially if the range is still a massive aoe that goes through walls, but range restrictions could be a direction as well, though not the area I'm leaning to. But I do think rebalancing Saryn is more warranted than redesigning the full game to avoid doing such directly. Just get over word play, the word nerf isn't some almighty evil, and its not inherently bad contrary to what outrage people on the internet may tell you. 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

what? ive seen so many people 1-3 shot shaper with more power creep than seen in warframe. dont praise how broken PoE is please. they added korean lvl grinding mechanics and tedious end game. and are now trying to reduce item grinding by removing one of the notorious item grinding items. Links. all its going to do is drive the price of jewelers orb up because links job was pushed onto jewelers orb.

Edit: PoE has 2 of the things games need to stop having. Sponge, and OHKO

 

Uber Shaper / Elder are gone as end-bosses. Unlike DE; They notice when Power Creep gets too high and buff their content. They don't leave crap like The Sergent in the game for 5 years too long. Not to mention most the time it's the league mechanics that drive difficulty. Legion Bosses hit and took way more damage. Same with Blight. There were Blight enemies who had 10x the HP of Uber Elder. Those fights were about knowing the mechanics anyways. Not DPS / HP.

Your having trouble with sponges; you're build isn't good. You get one-shot. You screwed up or your build isn't good. Simple as that. Yea games should def stop requiring a brain to build and define characters or play styles. Be more like Warframe where we can do everything wrong and still win.

If anything that statement just brings me closer to Path's design over Warframe. I don't have those problems so there's obviously a difference here. Something that doesn't matter anymore in Warframe as it doesn't reward you for anymore more than basic competence. Links are a notorious grind. What like first week of a league?

Path is easy to praise over Warframe. Their developers are better and far more quick not to mention their Support staff.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

 

Uber Shaper / Elder are gone as end-bosses. Unlike DE; They notice when Power Creep gets too high and buff their content. They don't leave crap like The Sergent in the game for 5 years too long. Not to mention most the time it's the league mechanics that drive difficulty. Legion Bosses hit and took way more damage. Same with Blight. There were Blight enemies who had 10x the HP of Uber Elder. Those fights were about knowing the mechanics anyways. Not DPS / HP.

Your having trouble with sponges; you're build isn't good. You get one-shot. You screwed up or your build isn't good. Simple as that. Yea games should def stop requiring a brain to build and define characters or play styles. Be more like Warframe where we can do everything wrong and still win.

If anything that statement just brings me closer to Path's design over Warframe. I don't have those problems so there's obviously a difference here. Something that doesn't matter anymore in Warframe as it doesn't reward you for anymore more than basic competence. Links are a notorious grind. What like first week of a league?

Path is easy to praise over Warframe. Their developers are better and far more quick not to mention their Support staff.

are you kidding me? i have a frost blade raider with over 15k HP 1 press of frost blade and area is dead and im sitting with max frenzy and under the effects of elusive. 3 delve enemies will stand through your damage no matter what because they were designed to be sponges. get ohko which can happen to even the tankiest build and you lose 5-7 hours worth of xp depending on lvl.

we will not agree on this. sponge and ohko =/= challenge. thats all PoE is . use very specific build to delete enemies, do not take damage. that game is pretty brain dead to me.

[AegisSiege]

It seems to me that the problem is bigger than just Saryn, or the other Nukers. So here are some of my thoughts.
ESO should be reworked, so that more then a few Frames are able to solo 8 rounds.
Adjust Enemy scaling.
Give Nuke Frames a slight boop with the nerf hammer.
Create/rework game modes that aren't so reliant on killing everything forever.

Buff/Rework more Frames, a lot of Warframes could be made great with just some slight increasing of numbers.
Lessen the number of Enemies who are immune to CC, making CC powers better.

[ILOHARTA]

1 hour ago, Foefaller said:

What build does this?

Genuinely curious, because I don't often see Mirage in ESO, and it's usually a HoM build, which while powerful, isn't usually "beats Saryn to killing enemies noone can see" powerful. Does it use Explosive Legerdemain?

me and clan mates are still trying to figure that out, personally I have no clue...

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

are you kidding me? i have a frost blade raider with over 15k HP 1 press of frost blade and area is dead and im sitting with max frenzy and under the effects of elusive. 3 delve enemies will stand through your damage no matter what because they were designed to be sponges. get ohko which can happen to even the tankiest build and you lose 5-7 hours worth of xp depending on lvl.

we will not agree on this. sponge and ohko =/= challenge. thats all PoE is . use very specific build to delete enemies, do not take damage. that game is pretty brain dead to me.

 

Who said anything about Challenge? First off HP / Damage are Difficulty. Challenge is something you have to overcome. Neither is absent from Path because they do exactly what you claim is so horrible. They increase HP / Damage numbers because without those increases Challenge turns into Chores which is Warframe in a nutshell.

You can't get both sides of this. Either HP / Damage increases over time or there will never be challenge.

[Violet_Xe]

Just now, Cubewano said:

So you would rather ask DE to redesign the entire game to nerf Saryn, a monumentally bigger ask that can lead to a massive amount of balance problems for others frames, rather than just directly nerfing Saryn all because of semantics? Do you really think that is reasonable? 

Saryn being made less overwhelming would hardly ruin her as a viable frame, you could literally removal all damage from her spores and just leave them as a armor strip and she'd still be one of the most potent frames in the game, just as an extremely deadly debuffer. And no being made more reasonable wouldn't just have her die off otherwise you'd have to believe only one or two frames are ever in rotation a time to begin with, since there's always a best pick, even if its only marginally better. Reality is the only real thing that prompts large usage changes is when there are massive gaps between the effectiveness of tools, and unless DE completely broke her and left her to rot which isn't something they've ever truly done, even in the earlier days of very harsh nerfing, that just isn't a realistic outlook. And as for other nuke frames, if they pose the same problem as Saryn then yes they should be addressed as well, but that doesn't change that Saryn is worth being addressed as well, and putting her off until the rest are done isn't realistic, helpful, or practical. 

As for what can be nerfed, plenty of people have posed ideas, from removing damage on her spores, to changing their element type, I did really like the idea in the stream about making spores not self tick and instead charge damage that Saryn must then burst with other abilities to cause damage which could work. I don't think just slightly limiting her spore range would work on its own, especially if the range is still a massive aoe that goes through walls, but range restrictions could be a direction as well, though not the area I'm leaning to. But I do think rebalancing Saryn is more warranted than redesigning the full game to avoid doing such directly. Just get over word play, the word nerf isn't some almighty evil, and its not inherently bad contrary to what outrage people on the internet may tell you. 

   I'd be crazy to ask for that instantly, especially with DE as our dev. I'm also not saying to get to it instantly, but this doesn't mean DE didn't screw up here. This is years of issues and wrong development built towards what made saryn so popular. Simple nerfs will just throw us back into the cycle of warframe. I would greatly prefer ADDITIONS and TWEAKS to the game to put more focus on warframes than nerfing saryn. So yes I do think it's reasonable, but you and DE may not and that's fine.

   No, she would lose the fantastic position she's currently at within the game. What's a DPS frame who can't deal damage? Not a DPS... then what is she? She loses her position in the game making her a decent warframe without a purpose. She can tank, but she isn't as tanky as ember who is another status DPS but can tank. She can't support her team either and lacks any half decent CC. As a damage dealer she MUST deal damage, it's why saryn's been so powerful since her release.
   If you're under the impression that she is too popular because she's good you're wrong. She's popular because she excels at the parts of warframe people care about. She's popular because she's durable yet not fragile. She's popular because of her reputation as the ESO Queen. She's popular because of her model, fan art, and skin ariety. She's popular because she's a flexible and adaptable warframe with build variety for every ability. Saryn is the ONLY warframe I can think of to check every box of warframe and it's 100% DE's fault she's got this toxic reputation. They don't need to leave her to rot because she's not rotting, she's flourishing because ESo and Defense have such a heavy biased for her and were pushing her further with countless videos and posts of her strength even though she has rivals for her ESO title. You compare her to current content but she needs higher lvl content to fight.

   I am not saying to put her off, simply deal with her in a different way which is more beneficial. What you want helps in the short term, not long term. I also think you're over exaggerating how powerful she is. As a nezha player I've constantly been competitive against many  mindless saryn players and in the past, WoF embers. They were playing casually and I can be on par with their damage and kills so they aren't that bad. If I can do that then 

   I'm also accustomed and open to nerfs as I've even said before in this thread that I'm waiting for nezha to get hit even though I've got 2 umbral forma on him. But I've stated many times of ways to introduce ways to impact the meta without altering our weapons and frames directly. Using indirect methods to shift how players approach battles. I'm suggesting changes that should already be part of the game which makes more warframe viable lowering saryn's usage but retaining her power. I've also posted in past concepts about new health types or eximus effects which can cripple saryn, critical, and CO builds under the right circumstances and bring other frames in line and force players to think differently. Not only would this be nerfing saryn indirectly but it would add content to the game as a whole and apparently now play into eximus drops if they continue down this eximus drop path.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Well, you seem like you have a beef, especially considering the passive aggressiveness. Whether it's your intention or not, you're being rude.

The solution I preach is one that I *did* take myself, which is why I recommend it. I still play in PUGs occasionally and I leave the games where there is a problem. In other words I fix my own issue rather than going to the forum to whine about what others do.

No Tenno...You think I have a beef because you ran into an argument you have no objective counter for and have chosen to imply projected feelings to dismiss it instead.

You think I am being rude because you don't like the opinion you have received but haven't a counter for. If you are insulted, it isn't because I have insulted you.

I'm really not sure where you come up with passive aggressive though—I don't find your argument worth being either passive enough to spare your feelings for or aggressive enough to hurt your feelings about for so far— so my response is matched to suit.

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

In that case your argument is for the tyranny of the majority (or rather the loud minority posing as the majority).
To explain it as briefly as I can, there are other values than just appeasing the majority, such as integrity or artistry. While both of us can agree this isn't about art, there is an argument to be made that DE does not have stellar integrity and they are absolutely not consistent, which means some of their decisions are blatantly made to appease whiners.

Like you said above, you're not surprised and neither am I. Doesn't mean it's right, beneficial or good.

No. My argument is for math...

If customers have to interact, you have more happy ones when you have less crappy ones. That's why companies that want both don't let them interact and provide guidance when they do.

If integrity or artistry were meaningful issues to account for then the conversation wouldn't be being had in the first place...

A player with integrity would never stoop to such pathetic tactics and the Artist wouldn't care less for efficiency to begin with.

Right, beneficial, or good?  Umm sure, let's spout about integrity and argue that things that don't specifically benefit you aren't actually right, beneficial, or good for the whole in the same breath, why don't we?

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

A fellow warhammer player I assume?

More like fellow former Kindergartener... That's where kids can be counted to formally learn to be considerate and respect others for the first time.

Are Kindergarteners in Warhammer?

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Whether you like it or not, that guy is part of the community. You have to live side by side with him and the sooner you learn to ignore him the sooner you'll be happier in general. Railing against him is utterly counterproductive.

Luckily for you the solution I proposed fixes all your issues. If you can't handle other people, don't PUG. It's as simple as that and that should be DE's proposed solution whenever these things come up, for the sake of everyone.

More like That Guy has to live side by side around the rest of us given that their choices keeps getting their toys broken.

If you fit the description, the best thing you could do is take your own advice in regard to soloing...History suggests you'll keep your stuff longer that way.

[Cubewano]

7 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

   I'd be crazy to ask for that instantly, especially with DE as our dev. I'm also not saying to get to it instantly, but this doesn't mean DE didn't screw up here. This is years of issues and wrong development built towards what made saryn so popular. Simple nerfs will just throw us back into the cycle of warframe. I would greatly prefer ADDITIONS and TWEAKS to the game to put more focus on warframes than nerfing saryn. So yes I do think it's reasonable, but you and DE may not and that's fine.

   No, she would lose the fantastic position she's currently at within the game. What's a DPS frame who can't deal damage? Not a DPS... then what is she? She loses her position in the game making her a decent warframe without a purpose. She can tank, but she isn't as tanky as ember who is another status DPS but can tank. She can't support her team either and lacks any half decent CC. As a damage dealer she MUST deal damage, it's why saryn's been so powerful since her release.
   If you're under the impression that she is too popular because she's good you're wrong. She's popular because she excels at the parts of warframe people care about. She's popular because she's durable yet not fragile. She's popular because of her reputation as the ESO Queen. She's popular because of her model, fan art, and skin ariety. She's popular because she's a flexible and adaptable warframe with build variety for every ability. Saryn is the ONLY warframe I can think of to check every box of warframe and it's 100% DE's fault she's got this toxic reputation. They don't need to leave her to rot because she's not rotting, she's flourishing because ESo and Defense have such a heavy biased for her and were pushing her further with countless videos and posts of her strength even though she has rivals for her ESO title. You compare her to current content but she needs higher lvl content to fight.

   I am not saying to put her off, simply deal with her in a different way which is more beneficial. What you want helps in the short term, not long term. I also think you're over exaggerating how powerful she is. As a nezha player I've constantly been competitive against many  mindless saryn players and in the past, WoF embers. They were playing casually and I can be on par with their damage and kills so they aren't that bad. If I can do that then 

   I'm also accustomed and open to nerfs as I've even said before in this thread that I'm waiting for nezha to get hit even though I've got 2 umbral forma on him. But I've stated many times of ways to introduce ways to impact the meta without altering our weapons and frames directly. Using indirect methods to shift how players approach battles. I'm suggesting changes that should already be part of the game which makes more warframe viable lowering saryn's usage but retaining her power. I've also posted in past concepts about new health types or eximus effects which can cripple saryn, critical, and CO builds under the right circumstances and bring other frames in line and force players to think differently. Not only would this be nerfing saryn indirectly but it would add content to the game as a whole and apparently now play into eximus drops if they continue down this eximus drop path.

You truly are saying right now you would rather DE redesign the entire game to doll out a nerf, that just doing an explicit one to a single frame, just so you can play ignorant about it being a nerf. How do you not realize how ludicrous that sounds? Ten times the work just for the comfort of you not having to say it was direct, but still getting the same end result.   

And she isn't in a fantastic position, she's over powered, problematic to co-op, and a general balancing hazard seeded from power creep and a failure to keep to a consistent power scale, she's flashy for a hot minute but emblematic of so many issues in this game, which is suffice to say, not fantastic. And a DPS frame withou DPS isn't a DPS frame, which is why I then said she'd be a potent debuffer. Other roles exist outside dps, though frames like Saryn have certainly made that seem not the case up to now, which is further why she is a problem. But no that hardly makes her unable to have value, but I already noted that, she's already effectively the most potent debuffer in the game, she doesn't need damage to matter. 

I also could care less how popular she is when it comes to game balance, being popular doesn't give you a green card to wreck the game, it especially doesn't if part of that popularity is due to wrecking the game. See the CC category for that. You can make up whatever reasons you want to believe she is popular, but one way or the other she is over powered, and that's warrants addressing. If that makes her less popular, well she was being leant to for the wrong purposes, and people will hopefully then extend their limbs a bit and find something they enjoy for the actual experience of the frame and their style which may extend their time with the game overall. 

As for what you've been saying, sure you haven't been saying put her off, you've been saying worse, you've been saying to revolve the game around her. If a small part of the game is out of tune with the rest of it, you adjust that part of the game, you do not ask the entire game to be rehauled and redesigned to fit that small deviant part, Saryn has strayed from acceptable balance for the game, she should be pulled into line with the game, not the reverse. Because if you want to talk long term, the least viable long term solution to minor mistakes is to do the biggest job possible to fix each one, that will drain resources real fast, and to a pace that isn't remotely possible to keep up with. DE cannot, and I stress this, cannot redesign the whole game everytime a frame gets over tuned.  If you want to talk about long term, think about that for a moment at least. 

 

[Smilomaniac]

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

You think I am being rude

 

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

i.e. 1>3

Whether you realize it or not...That says alot about you.

Either your math is horrendous or you think others exist merely for your benefit imo.

That's you insinuating something negative about me, being condescending and assuming I'm egotistical if I don't agree, aka rude.

We fundamentally don't agree and we're talking about two different things that we have problems with.
For yours I've already stated the very simple solution and hopefully you'll realize one day that it's not worth worrying about how others behave and that improving yourself is the only worthwhile endeavor.

Before you entered the thread and for some reason responded to me, literally no one was talking about players being 'that guy'. You inserted your viewpoints as a response to mine even though there's no overlap or relevance. This has nothing to do with me being 'unable' to counter you, it's that I don't understand why you even responded to me as your arguments are largely irrelevant to what I wrote.

I think the simple truth is that you want people to change on your behalf and probably can't accept that it won't happen. Ever. Nor should it.

*shrug* do with the information what you will, I'm done with you.

[HexxyTheGrouch]

My 0.02...

Ember: Yep. Got tired of getting a walking tour of a map full of dead bodies. One day got enough items to do it myself every once in a while solo. Was pretty fun. I haven't messed with her kit since the first nerf/rework.

Catchmoon: Yep. It was crazy powerful and I was running it a lot in my loadouts. Mostly as a "Oh S--!" weapon. I understand the nerf, but would like to see it buffed a smidge in terms of range. Like +10-20m before dissipating completely. Not gonna hold my breath on that, just my opinion.

Itzal: I never cared for it. It got leveled and ignored. My darn near unkillable Amesha loadout keeps me happy and it hasn't changed in a lot of whiles.

Saryn: Needs something. The room delete just makes ESO boring. My personal solution to fight back is play Mag. Sometimes I can outdamage a poorly built Saryn. I like playing Saryn though; when I started out, she was the prime frame I bought. Instead of tryharding post reworks, I made up a contagion cloud based build and It's pretty fun, because I get to shoot and stab things. So, working as intended? Protip: energy color has to be tweaked to keep the clouds easy to see through.

<sets aside a rain barrel to collect tears if they ever decide to nerf Chroma> Oh, I will enjoy that.

[Azrael_V]

 

4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

any place with high densly packed groups saryn will keep that area clean and adjacent areas to it not just ESO.

it is irrelevant to bring up khora as she cannot kill and entire area as strangledome doesnt deal alot of damage, has an enemy limit, and low range and ensnare stops pulling in enemies after it stops propagating and can only start pulling again when whipclaw is used on a living ensnared enemy.

khora cannot do what saryn does and does not cause a problem in a team like saryn does. the best solution to saryn is a range cap and LoS

You mean low level maps I'm guessing? Hydron etc. Also how does LOS translate to abilities that are spread through the air? Unless you redefine Saryn and her abilities it makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Azrael_V

[Taell]

@Cubewano I think the real issue is that you're only asking for a nerf of one frame in one game mode. I get your point, I do. I sometimes find it annoying to play with Mesa because as Saryn I can't do anything to compete with her in terms of speed and nuking. But that doesn't mean Mesa deserves a nerf. If you want to avoid playing with Saryn in ESO, form a group and say "No Saryn", it shouldn't be up to people who enjoy playing Saryn to avoid you.

As many veteran players have said: Right now the game is about how fast you can do something, not coming up with a strategy to do the best you can. You can deny this fact all you want, that's your opinion. You talk as if you only play one warframe at all; I know for me I love finding the best frame for different situations, Saryn's playstyle just fits with ESO.

Don't get me wrong, nerfs aren't inherently bad, but you seem to be looking at the problem from the position of a frog in a well. You see the problem, want to fix it but you don't see the bigger issue. Have you asked yourself why people feel that speed/efficiency is what people believe they need in the endgame? Because that's exactly what it requires; the second you put timers of any kind into a game mode, and killing is how you combat it, it leads to this kind of situation.

Personally I love the game, but I believe DE has fallen behind in terms of complexity of content, which requires you to think about what frames you'll bring to it. Rather than "We need to kill stuff fast?" "Let me pick one of several frames that does that."

We honestly just need to address the bigger picture here which is there is no strategy required at the moment, because that kind of content is virtually non existent (as far as I know). I don't think you're wrong about balance issues, but I do not believe you see the bigger picture. It's something every dev has to deal with, and DE just needs to find something that works for them.

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Taell

[Skaleek]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

They don't leave crap like The Sergent in the game for 5 years too long.

You know, now that you mention it... Weren't they supposedly working on a nef anyo fight? I wonder what happened there.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Skaleek

[EinheriarJudith]

28 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

 

You mean low level maps I'm guessing? Hydron etc. Also how does LOS translate to abilities that are spread through the air? Unless you redefine Saryn and her abilities it makes no sense whatsoever.

traveling through the air does not equate to traveling through walls and doors. it makes perfect sense.

[Hellmaker2004]

4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

low range

10m range base pull is not that small, surely it is smaller than 16m but in exchange it also crowd controls both the target that is being pulled, but also 

• In addition, captured enemies have a raised Threat Level, become susceptible to friendly fire, and taunt their former allies into attacking them.
   

Now you are correct that the strangledome itself does not deal a lot of damage or to be more precise base 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 per second and we can all agree that is not high, but you must have forgotten that.
 

• and receive 200% damage from weapons and abilities.
• Ability Synergy: If at least one enemy captured by Strangledome is hit by  Whipclaw, all other enemies in the same dome will each receive 50% total damage.

And trust me, Whipclaw still deal a S#&amp;&#036;load of damage.

Now you are correct that the strangledome itself does not deal a lot of damage or to be more precise base 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 per second and we can all agree that is not high, but you must have forgotten that. Whipclaw deal a S#&amp;&#036;load of damage.

[Violet_Xe]

17 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

You truly are saying right now you would rather DE redesign the entire game to doll out a nerf, that just doing an explicit one to a single frame, just so you can play ignorant about it being a nerf. How do you not realize how ludicrous that sounds? Ten times the work just for the comfort of you not having to say it was direct, but still getting the same end result.   

And she isn't in a fantastic position, she's over powered, problematic to co-op, and a general balancing hazard seeded from power creep and a failure to keep to a consistent power scale, she's flashy for a hot minute but emblematic of so many issues in this game, which is suffice to say, not fantastic. And a DPS frame withou DPS isn't a DPS frame, which is why I then said she'd be a potent debuffer. Other roles exist outside dps, though frames like Saryn have certainly made that seem not the case up to now, which is further why she is a problem. But no that hardly makes her unable to have value, but I already noted that, she's already effectively the most potent debuffer in the game, she doesn't need damage to matter. 

I also could care less how popular she is when it comes to game balance, being popular doesn't give you a green card to wreck the game, it especially doesn't if part of that popularity is due to wrecking the game. See the CC category for that. You can make up whatever reasons you want to believe she is popular, but one way or the other she is over powered, and that's warrants addressing. If that makes her less popular, well she was being leant to for the wrong purposes, and people will hopefully then extend their limbs a bit and find something they enjoy for the actual experience of the frame and their style which may extend their time with the game overall. 

As for what you've been saying, sure you haven't been saying put her off, you've been saying worse, you've been saying to revolve the game around her. If a small part of the game is out of tune with the rest of it, you adjust that part of the game, you do not ask the entire game to be rehauled and redesigned to fit that small deviant part, Saryn has strayed from acceptable balance for the game, she should be pulled into line with the game, not the reverse. Because if you want to talk long term, the least viable long term solution to minor mistakes is to do the biggest job possible to fix each one, that will drain resources real fast, and to a pace that isn't remotely possible to keep up with. DE cannot, and I stress this, cannot redesign the whole game every time a frame gets over tuned.  If you want to talk about long term, think about that for a moment at least. 

 What I'm asking for is De to remake the game over time to better fit more warframes and playstyles. Incorporating indirect nerfs to saryn by tying them into gameplay is a different way to go about nerfing saryn. It will take longer and it makes DE readdress things that need to be readdress. I'm simply stating my preferred way to go about it. If DE ends up nerfing her directly then so be it but I'd see it as a missed opportunity. But don't make it sound like I just want to avoid direct nerfs and that its some word. You may see it as keeping her powerful, but I see it as changing how valuable she is in specific missions that utilize different mechanics putting saryn at a disadvantage.

   She can wreck the game yes, and so can EVERY OTHER WARFRAME. Without higher difficulty content all our frames are capable of eating everything. Saryn in specific destroys content because she excels at killing in mass, a trait rarely found in many other warframes. That was her design from the beginning. One stat DE uses for deciding nerfs is apparently usage and popularity and because she's one of the top 4 used warframes she's popular and powerful but that's probably mistaking a lot of why other people play her.
   She is not overpowered she's just more useful in day to day activities and more important and relevant content. Because of that her power is seemingly off the charts when I, and others have said before, can wipe entire tiles instantly just like her. If she were truly overpowered she would crush everyone in damage yet that's not what I've experienced. It may be just that I'm really good and efficient at killing so it's unfair to compare me to others *that's if I actually am that good which I don't think I am* but I and others have experienced warframes that rival her damage with both proper and improper warframes. That doesn't mean she's overpowered.

   Is there something wrong with making content with biased and warframe kits in mind? I have constantly used that method in creating raid concepts and high difficulty content where certain missions favor certain frames and look down on others. I did not ever say to revolve around saryn. I simply used saryn as an example and catalyst because she serves as a prime example and she's the subject of the topic. In my post I said Saryn, CO, and critical builds, not just saryn. Saryn being the representative for powerful warframes and CO being the representative for status builds.
   Saryn is not out of tune with the rest of the game, rather she's so harmonious with it's core that you can't get better. She excels at what warframe is so good at. This means De needs to change it so she isn't as good at everything. The changes I'm suggesting aren't for saryn's benefit alone and I don't think you're grasping that. This would assist in making many other warframes and builds viable over others. I'm also asking for it to be remade over a long period of time which i'm fine taking years if necessary. 
   I agree that DE cannot do this every time a warframe needs to be refreshed and they wont need to. If they do it properly, and handle game creation with care, they wouldn't need to do this in the first place.  But they need to get around to major game systems and missions eventually. There's no reason for DE to continue ignoring problems that stare them right in the face. I am no asking for them to do something crazy revolutionary either, I'm asking for fixes and revamps over the course of years which literally any other game could do. Warframe, which is known for it's ambition should be able to pull it off once it's plate is clean of most of its larger projects like Railjack and the D-Paradox are done freeing up those resources for other projects and fixes.

   You say taking away her damage would do nothing but make her a debuff warframe but that serves no purpose. She will have no purpose in warframe except being a glorified status application. She can apply corrosiverrsive and viral sure but she has no other redeeming qualities besides that. That's not even a quarter of what makes a good debuff warframe. Losing her damage means she loses her spot in mass killing which means her use vanishes and her playrate will experience a fallout and she'll become a wandering warframe with no purpose. She wont be good at any mission type.

[XaoGarrent]

5 hours ago, Xaero said:

What about absurd range?

That's literally the point of Saryn, she's supposed to be the plague queen, and thanks to the way her rework is done without that range her damage scaling is going to be in the toilet. Without being able to infect a large area, her spore scaling would be completely and utterly non-functional. You'll never be able to maintain it long enough that it's worth using over just shooting your gun. 

Nerf her 1 and she'll become a bad Rhino or Chroma (except without the medium to high level of durability these types of frames have), because there's going to be no point in using your 1 when your 3 with an appropriate weapon is going to kill everything that your spores will ever reach anyway. Her 4 is dependent on her 1, and her 2 is mediocre, even with the augment. So you're basically axing everything good in her kit but the damage buff. This is the problem with synergistic kits, nerfing any one part of it unravels the whole kit.

Nobody at DE seems to really understand how their game works, or know when to leave well enough alone. Saryn IS going to get butchered. And then a year later she's going to be buffed to the same sort of state she's in now.  And all it will accomplish is even more people being unhappy with their "balance" changes.

It would be better to just delete ESO. That game mode has brought nothing but problems and bad decisions to the game.

[Cubewano]

47 minutes ago, Taell said:

@Cubewano I think the real issue is that you're only asking for a nerf of one frame in one game mode. I get your point, I do. I sometimes find it annoying to play with Mesa because as Saryn I can't do anything to compete with her in terms of speed and nuking. But that doesn't mean Mesa deserves a nerf. If you want to avoid playing with Saryn in ESO, form a group and say "No Saryn", it shouldn't be up to people who enjoy playing Saryn to avoid you.

As many veteran players have said: Right now the game is about how fast you can do something, not coming up with a strategy to do the best you can. You can deny this fact all you want, that's your opinion. You talk as if you only play one warframe at all; I know for me I love finding the best frame for different situations, Saryn's playstyle just fits with ESO.

Don't get me wrong, nerfs aren't inherently bad, but you seem to be looking at the problem from the position of a frog in a well. You see the problem, want to fix it but you don't see the bigger issue. Have you asked yourself why people feel that speed/efficiency is what people believe they need in the endgame? Because that's exactly what it requires; the second you put timers of any kind into a game mode, and killing is how you combat it, it leads to this kind of situation.

Personally I love the game, but I believe DE has fallen behind in terms of complexity of content, which requires you to think about what frames you'll bring to it. Rather than "We need to kill stuff fast?" "Let me pick one of several frames that does that."

We honestly just need to address the bigger picture here which is there is no strategy required at the moment, because that kind of content is virtually non existent (as far as I know). I don't think you're wrong about balance issues, but I do not believe you see the bigger picture. It's something every dev has to deal with, and DE just needs to find something that works for them.

 

I am not and you might want to read the full conversation before deciding to assert my stance for me, and you also probably shouldn't be struggling as a Saryn against a Mesa, though both are problem frames in kind. If a frame can lead to you having nothing to do they should be rebalanced to not have such an effect, short and simple. This is still a largely co-op game, and in a co-op mode being casually dismissed from even the option of play for being in a group is just poor design. Similarly, telling people to just deal with the problem a harshly limit their ability to play to avoid it also is not a genuine solution and is a poor design. Having the option to play without any single player turning off the game for you shouldn't be a thing player have to jump through hoops to achieve or face burdens for.

And many veterans have said many things on many sides, that doesn't make it right, or ideal. This veterans says gameplay > arbitrary kill counts, if you can explain why the reverse is more important do share, and likewise why you think a situation in a co-op game where a single player can casually disengage all other players from game on the regular is a good thing, that'd be interesting, but outside that I've no reason to just side with your position because you decided to have it. In kind maybe put a stopper on the assumption train you are starting about my stances that you seem to have no grasp on from this five second dive into a conversation you don't seem familiar with. 

Also where do you actually need the kind of power range Saryn has honestly? Like outside ESO for solo play, where?For loot farming she's not optimal, you want loot frames. Survival/Interception/MD/Defection have timed progression so she doesn't make those go by faster or more efficiently. Defense she can maybe hasten, but its not a meta farm mode to begin with so far as I'm aware because its inherently inefficient no matter what and there's no implication fast times couldn't be achieved without her. Exterminate you generally encounter enough close proximity enemies between spawn and extraction to finish the mission so she's not relevant there efficiency wise. So like truly where is this power actually all that essential/hastening and not just popularized overkill? And when you find those bits, explain why its better to leave them flawed and shoehorn people into a less diverse/optional frame roster than to just fix them and expand player choice. 

Frames like Saryn are the antithesis of complex play, power crept giga tools that verge on having it all. remember when cc died because of them

Do share this bigger picture though you have of balancing Warframe without getting rid of such oppressive high damage high range high utility frames like Saryn, for gameplay complexity and healthy co-op and whatever else. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Cubewano

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

~snip~

oh i didnt forget that it has damage amp for the team and whip claws synergy. it has a 26 enemy limit which i have never seen get filled. strangle dome still leaves enemies to kill so others have something to do.

khora is the perfect example of a frame that has high damage potential that isnt detrimental/overwhelming to the team.

[Xolgys]

the only issue with saryn is that it is too easy to spread spores FOR miasma and then basically cause a cascade of burst dmg in a huge AoE with miasma too.

personally i have 0 issues with saryn ruling ESO as it provides a perfect environment for her, but turning misama into an aura that deals viral damage per second that ramps up the longer an enemy is in it would reduce her room nuking capabilities since it would not kill enemies that fast anymore and it would have to ramp up individually for every enemy.

what that means is she basically loses her "bursty" nature and turns into more what her theme implies: dot.

viral dmg/proccs from an AoE aura on her 4 +toxin from toxic lash/contagion cloud +spore corr dot.

enemies who die from miasma could still spread spores and toxic lash could also still do that since miasma is THE one reason why she can AoE nuke so effectively without really ramping and managing spore properly. the moment spore ramped up to considerable damage she already nuked 5 rooms with 5 miasmas and it doesnt really matter if someone manages spores since the 4x damage + corr proccs are most important for miasma in conjunction with the viral procc.

 

i still wonder which of the alternatives will dominate ESO next because its not like there arent others besides saryn who can effectively nuke it. some frames will ever "rule" it, by design...so i wonder why frames should be balanced around 1 game mode thats so very linear in terms of the task that has to be fulfilled there.

how about revisiting really needy frames instead and revisiting ESO ? its a game mode introduced and barely improved on. i understand empyrean is highly focussed now but still...

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xydeth

[Azrael_V]

8 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

traveling through the air does not equate to traveling through walls and doors. it makes perfect sense.

There are no closed isolated rooms in the game. There are doorways and multiple ducts for air to travel through. Think again. 

[EinheriarJudith]

actually if there wasnt all of the rooms on eris would be decompressed. try again.

[EinheriarJudith]

5 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

There are no closed isolated rooms in the game. There are doorways and multiple ducts for air to travel through. Think again. 

 

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

actually if there wasnt all of the rooms on eris would be decompressed. try again.

there is also shooting out windows on corpus tiles that initiate lockdown that isolates the area from the rest.

[Azrael_V]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

actually if there wasnt all of the rooms on eris would be decompressed. try again.

Not getting you. If there was no air on Eris why are we allowed to breathe there without Life Support. Outside of Survival missions I think its safe to assume that air is in abundance. Otherwise Saryns abilities would not be able to work in the first place.