Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[traybong111]

Just now, --C--Nehra said:

Neither do I give 3 bovine fecal cakes about how you play. You called me childish, when you exhibited the childish behaviour yourself and now you are the one who introduced the first intellectual cuss words in your subsequent reply. Carry on... 

"waahhhh you used a bad word i win" 

"waahhhh you're just jealous i win"

Truly a mark of fellow intellect. 

I don't really care whether Saryn gets nerfed or not. Much like I had no strong opinion over several major Trinity nerfs, Banshee nerfs, Equinox nerfs, Nyx nerfs, Ember nerfs, and many more over the years. But I'm just telling you, every single time there was a pre-whine thread like this (because players, to their credit, know when certain gears are overtuned compared to rest of available tools in the game, but naturally want to keep them) and every single time DE seemed to overnerf half for the lulz and spite. 

[Cubewano]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

So can any frame at some point. I haven't run into more than a handful in my whole roughly 3,000 hours played since the rework. That's again your opinion about it being bad Design. If you're competing in a PvE game I think you're doing something wrong. 

I simply don't want to hear your opinions on things presented as if they're fact. Saying a fodder frame specifically picked because she neither CC'd nor killed past level 20 is more balanced than currently simply because now she can 3 tick kill level 20's with the optimal build minmaxed with corrupted mods and designed to kill level 200's is simply not a fair assessment.

   But hey let's forget about the multitude of other issues of random group play and just focus on the 5% of the time where you have to see a Saryn.

How? There is an inherent lack of ranged aoe dps that most frames have that you can't really alter to have the kind of aoe dominance necessary to fully remove a party from play, especially not to the extent and level of ease frames like Saryn can. 

And I'd say it's more an objective fact that if a co-op game has game elements that make co-op not functional (the group cannot fully participate) it's a bad co-op design. It has nothing to do with competing, it's about the game design and experience. If you have a four man party and only person gets to experience play that's clearly not working right.

I've also not tried to pass anything as fact, I've offered my perspective with supporting evidence, to which you seem to just be misinterpreting. You saying I picked a frame because she couldn't kill past level twenty is more an example of presenting something as fact when it really isn't. Now I can't say I recall what levels were the high point back then, but I'm fairly confident sorties were around at the time, and I operated just fine in them with her, so its safe to say level 20 wasn't my baseline for balance which is great because that would truly be a terrible baseline for it. 

And what are you basing this 5% Saryn encounter rate off of? Seems it'd be higher since Saryn seems one of the notably more popular frames in the game. 

[Chicken-Biryani]

2 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

every single time DE seemed to overnerf half for the lulz and spite. 

Then they are a bad company if they do it out of spite. (You said it, not me.)

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

I've seen lots of people say the same about Chroma, or Octavia, or even Wisp. The community needs to calm down and get off the nerf train. They're not doing themselves any favors in the long run because in the end they'll just brick her as they've done so many times before and there'll be one more mastery rank fodder prime.

Ask for better content rather than spending time likely destroying a frame that they'll have to come back to later. They won't spend the time required to make any nerf truly balanced. Much easier to decrease range by 56% and fall off by 83% and call it good. They'll sell you a slot later to fix 40% of one of those 2 nerfs.

I am sure you know better what community needs and what's better for them. The thing is, you can't force them to do things your way.

[Cubewano]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

What is other people's deal with Saryn and other nuke frames out damaging them in ESO?? I don't bring my Saryn to an Eidolon hunt or Profit taker and then complain on the forums that a Chroma is much more useful and should be nerfed.

Different frames work better for different situations. ESO, exterminate, defence are not the entire game.

Who are these other people, I'll ask them? Just provide links to where they mentioned being upset a nuke frame out damage them in ESO specifically. 

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

Just now, Xaero said:

I am sure you know better what community needs and what's better for them. The thing is, you can't force them to do things your way.

I never claimed to know better. I'm just saying nerfs rarely fix anything when you go with the nuclear option. You just have a lot of pissed off players during a time where there's little to no content and that's not good for anyone.

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

I never claimed to know better. I'm just saying nerfs rarely fix anything when you go with the nuclear option. You just have a lot of pissed off players during a time where there's little to no content and that's not good for anyone.

nerfing a single frame to a unspecified amount (but leaning towards lighter changes) is the nuclear option to you?

[Xaero]

4 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

nerfing a single frame to a unspecified amount (but leaning towards lighter changes) is the nuclear option to you?

Saryn is the toxic theme frame, so she makes people toxic. And her toxic spores spread too far.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xaero

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, SastusBulbas said:

DE may want to bear in mind that when people spend real money for an item they expect what they pay for.

 

The more DE abuse paying customers, the more they rot their foundations.

 

I bought Saryn Prime/Valkyr Prime vault pack in xbox.

Thats £50 spent based on my PC experience of those frames. 

 

Basically its akin to buying a car/bread/bicycle/phone and once having it, the retailer turning up whenever they want, saying #*!% you, laughing, taking the goods you paid for and leaving you something different and worth less.

 

Not exactly good business practise. 

 

 

So from here on out you want DE to stop balancing the game, updating content, adding new modes, weapons, frames, mechanics, systems, and the like and just leaving everything completely the same until it shuts down, out of respect for your purchase at the time of purchase, is that correct? Because anything short of that sort of breaks this entire chain of logic. 

Warframe is a live service game, which means changing qualities, and it is what you decided to buy into. If you don't want that why are you here? What are you expecting? Because clearly whatever it is isn't reasonable or realistic given this games entire history and model revolves around change and not fixed content that never evolves.   

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, Diangelius said:

There are lots of ways to improve the mode but I will just state one example (because human's imagination is pretty diverse): remove the skill spamming Restriction and make skills usage also generate Efficiency % ? Simaris keeps saying "It is you I study" after all.

Can I maintain 100% efficiency by spamming 4 on Excalibur? I mean, will it work if I just activate and deactivate Exalted Blade non-stop?

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xaero

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

17 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

How? There is an inherent lack of ranged aoe dps that most frames have that you can't really alter to have the kind of aoe dominance necessary to fully remove a party from play, especially not to the extent and level of ease frames like Saryn can. 

And I'd say it's more an objective fact that if a co-op game has game elements that make co-op not functional (the group cannot fully participate) it's a bad co-op design. It has nothing to do with competing, it's about the game design and experience. If you have a four man party and only person gets to experience play that's clearly not working right.

I've also not tried to pass anything as fact, I've offered my perspective with supporting evidence, to which you seem to just be misinterpreting. You saying I picked a frame because she couldn't kill past level twenty is more an example of presenting something as fact when it really isn't. Now I can't say I recall what levels were the high point back then, but I'm fairly confident sorties were around at the time, and I operated just fine in them with her, so its safe to say level 20 wasn't my baseline for balance which is great because that would truly be a terrible baseline for it. 

And what are you basing this 5% Saryn encounter rate off of? Seems it'd be higher since Saryn seems one of the notably more popular frames in the game. 

You keep saying Saryn can but from my experience she simply can't unless you're going to really low level content. 

It's funny you keep claiming that she removes the co-op element when I asked several of my clanmates and alliance mates a half hour ago about this. Most just aren't seeing what you're seeing. That's 17 others so far chiming in to 3 that said she was a tad too strong. None stated that she flat out broke anything.

   You're claiming, however that this is objective fact, when the majority I asked so far haven't agreed. The evidence that she runs fast with molt isn't nuking. The evidence that she has range isn't itself evidence of anything but her having range. But hey, let's take your word over the fact that they gave her a rework because she was one of the least used frames in the game. Fairly balanced, but by that metric so was vauban.

Saryn is one of the most popular frames among MR24+. The real question is where is she being used exactly? I doubt your average 27 is using a nuke to ruin your larva farming in Cassini.

Edited December 3, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[Cubewano]

24 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

The problem is, when they nerf her, she is in danger of becoming unviable for solo ESO play, which is all I am concerned about. I really wish they don't do anything stupid to her. 

Then bring it up if it happens and I'll march with you, ESO is a trashcan to begin with and needs to be adjusted anywho. 

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

15 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

nerfing a single frame to a unspecified amount (but leaning towards lighter changes) is the nuclear option to you?

Let's look at their last nerf. 56% range reduction, 83% reduction to damage fall-off. One would hardly objectively call those "leaning towards lighter changes". Looking at Warframe nerfs they're typically a bit worse than "lighter changes" when they remove whole functions or cap modifiers. Funny when a meta frame like Ash turns into fodder overnight simply due to a "lighter side" nerf.

What you've just stated is either intellectually lazy or dishonest.

Edited December 3, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

You keep saying Saryn can but from my experience she simply can't unless you're going to really low level content. 

It's funny you keep claiming that she removes the co-op element when I asked several of my clanmates and alliance mates a half hour ago about this. Moststat3 just aren't seeing what you're seeing. That's 17 others so far chiming in to 3 that said she was a tad too strong. No one stated that she flat out broke anything.

   You're claiming, however that this is objective fact, when the majority I asked so far haven't agreed. The evidence that she runs fast with molt isn't nuking. The evidence that she has range isn't itself evidence of anything but her having range. But hey, let's take your word over the fact that they gave her a rework because she was one of the least used frames in the game. Fairly balanced, but by that metric so was vauban.

Saryn is one of the most popular frames among MR24+. The real question is where is she being used exactly? I doubt your average 27 is using a nuke to ruin your larva farming in Cassini.

I mean I did not long ago cite me doing basically what I'm mentioning in sortie levels, which isn't low level content so far as general play goes. And you can again see youtube videos of how easily Saryn can invalidate enemies across and assortment of level ranges. It's there to see if you want to. 

And I'm not sure how people agreeing with you actually makes my point any less true, I've explained pretty clearly how she achieves it, and unless you objectively explain how that isn't a reality no amount of yes men changes my point. 

I'm also still waiting for where this 5% estimate came from, and now want to know as well where you got that Saryn was reworked because she was one of the least used frames. Or was that last two lines of response supposed to somehow explain that random number pull away? 

[Melanholic7]

1) sureeee they wont rework it =/ “yet”.  (ofcource they will, they just wanted to chill players right now)

2) im glad I didnt bought tennogen stuff for saryn, and i wanted 😞 

3) poor guys who used Umbralformas or bought expensive skins for her, cause im sure that DEs nerfs are hardhits to frames..

[JackHargreav]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"I decided the pizza you bought wasnt healthy for you so I turned it into a salad. No refunds."- this is essentially what happens every time they break something people invest their time and money in. 

And I know, (I already see someone typing) "but sometimes nerfs are needed!" But DE has a track record of going overboard with nerfs and breaking things completely. 

 

Except nerfs happen every year. And you know nerfs happen every year. And it is well known that weapons and frames that are either used too much or not at all will get a rework.

That's how warframe has been since it's release.

[Chicken-Biryani]

7 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Then bring it up if it happens and I'll march with you, ESO is a trashcan to begin with and needs to be adjusted anywho. 

Glad to hear that. Fingers crossed. Hopefully it will never happen, since Pablo said he isn't working at it. 

[Diangelius]

10 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Can I maintain 100% efficiency by spamming 4 on Excalibur? I mean, will it work if I just activate and deactivate Exalted Blade non-stop?

You can use his exalted blade to kill and also able to cast other skills too no ? His Dash, Blind and Javelin are all useful !

Anyway, it's just an example. My only point is Saryn not deserving any nerf. She's fine as she is now !

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

Let's look at their last nerf. 56% range reduction, 83% reduction to damage fall-off. One would hardly objectively call those "leaning towards lighter changes". Looking at Warframe nerfs they're typically a bit worse than "lighter changes" when they remove whole functions or cap modifiers. Funny when a meta frame like Ash turns into fodder overnight simply due to a "lighter side" nerf.

What you've just stated is either intellectually lazy or dishonest.

You mean the slap on the wrist catchmoon got that left it still the most used secondary in the game by a large margin and was mostly reversable with a new mod slot? You don't think that is anything but mild? 

And what's this about Ash? He was nerfed ages ago, and entirely by community demand because they though his previous ult cumbersome and more of a burden than anything in general combat, and he came out the other side pretty standard, which he's always been. 

You have to stretch back years to find an example, and Ash is what you landed on as a the next best example? Really? Both these rebalances were super mild. 

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

Just now, Cubewano said:

I mean I did not long ago cite me doing basically what I'm mentioning in sortie levels, which isn't low level content so far as general play goes. And you can again see youtube videos of how easily Saryn can invalidate enemies across and assortment of level ranges. It's there to see if you want to. 

And I'm not sure how people agreeing with you actually makes my point any less true, I've explained pretty clearly how she achieves it, and unless you objectively explain how that isn't a reality no amount of yes men changes my point. 

I'm also still waiting for where this 5% estimate came from, and now want to know as well where you got that Saryn was reworked because she was one of the least used frames. Or was that last two lines of response supposed to somehow explain that random number pull away? 

You seem to love that word "invalidate". I wouldn't call a 10 second kill invalidation when a rifle can kill a group in 2. 

I'm merely asking others if they know what you're talking about, and so far none have. Don't pretend to speak beyond your personal beliefs. I'm afraid you've just explained to me how she can run really fast in high heels and put 2-3 statuses on targets to kill in 10-30 seconds depending on faction, level, and other conditions such as enemy buffs. There's no need to objectively explain how ramp up in co-op isn't the worst aspect of running with randoms because the math simply doesn't equal "nukes the map and my fun".

As for you getting bent out of shape over the 5% hyperbole rather than moving past it, it seems you're more wanting to grab at straws than think of solutions here. This isn't productive so I think I'm going to call it here and simply enjoy my time rather than ranting about Saryn on the forums. 

 

Farewell!

[Cubewano]

7 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

Glad to hear that. Fingers crossed. Hopefully it will never happen, since Pablo said he isn't working at it. 

at the moment. c;

but no, hopefully it does happen. saryn's a hot mess. eso is just also a mess that she's been covering up as a partial bandaid. both deserve to actually be addressed. 

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Holy WOW! It's almost like it's a self correcting "problem" where in which you naturally gravitate towards frames that have a play style you enjoy. At least if you have anything remotely resembling something approximating self control. 

And you end up with a frame that's just gathering dust in your inventory.

Why not rework it so that it becomes engaging to play and you can pick it back up and enjoy it? They did it with Vauban.

[mraz641]

2 hours ago, SastusBulbas said:

DE may want to bear in mind that when people spend real money for an item they expect what they pay for.

 

The more DE abuse paying customers, the more they rot their foundations.

 

I bought Saryn Prime/Valkyr Prime vault pack in xbox.

Thats £50 spent based on my PC experience of those frames. 

 

Basically its akin to buying a car/bread/bicycle/phone and once having it, the retailer turning up whenever they want, saying #*!% you, laughing, taking the goods you paid for and leaving you something different and worth less.

 

Not exactly good business practise. 

 

 

you know game is still in beta,meaning things will change as they have changed since the beginning of the game

[Xaero]

2 minutes ago, Diangelius said:

You can use his exalted blade to kill and also able to cast other skills too no ? His Dash, Blind and Javelin are all useful !

EB is inferior to regular melee now (but ok, let's skip that), blind doesn't do any damage on itself, slash dash locks you in animation where you travel from enemy to enemy to make a single melee hit, and Javelin damage is laughable even on lower levels. So basically I'll just be wasting my time spamming these abilities. That's why I'm asking if I'll be able to maintain 100% efficiency just by spamming ability casts without actual killing.

8 minutes ago, Diangelius said:

Anyway, it's just an example. My only point is Saryn not deserving any nerf. She's fine as she is now !

Would be nice to hear once why is it fine to keep such an insane range and no LoS which allows you to kill stuff you don't even see.

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

You seem to love that word "invalidate". I wouldn't call a 10 second kill invalidation when a rifle can kill a group in 2. 

I'm merely asking others if they know what you're talking about, and so far none have. Don't pretend to speak beyond your personal beliefs. I'm afraid you've just explained to me how she can run really fast in high heels and put 2-3 statuses on targets to kill in 10-30 seconds depending on faction, level, and other conditions such as enemy buffs. There's no need to objectively explain how ramp up in co-op isn't the worst aspect of running with randoms because the math simply doesn't equal "nukes the map and my fun".

As for you getting bent out of shape over the 5% hyperbole rather than moving past it, it seems you're more wanting to grab at straws than think of solutions here. This isn't productive so I think I'm going to call it here and simply enjoy my time rather than ranting about Saryn on the forums. 

 

Farewell!

If it fits for the conversation it fits. You also know that isn't the kind of invalidation she does, or you've been ignoring this conversation thus far, and also really need to work on your own Saryn.

In regards to what I've explained to you, I'm actually not sure where any of what you just listed came from because it certainly wasn't me. Where did you get any of those numbers from actually? 

And I thought I was just doing my due diligence on fact checking since you seemed to pushing so heavily earlier the importance of that. Sorry you now don't I guess side with that sentiment, or want it to pertain to you. Shame to see that is somehow the dealer breaker, but I guess I can't do much about that. 

Have a good one, this was certainly a sort of conversation that was had.