Liches will still kill you no matter what.

[JHarlequin]

 They definitely need better voice lines and a better reason for the death, but otherwise, the death has no importance.  It isn't really much of a loss, so the death does not matter.

 They are still looking at it, but it seems likely that the death will stay in.  Hopefully they make other improvements so that people stop worrying about the meaningless death.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, JHarlequin said:

Hopefully they make other improvements so that people stop worrying about the meaningless death.

If the death is meaningless then why is it even there in the first place?

[MirageKnight]

Just now, Aldain said:

If the death is meaningless then why is it even there in the first place?

Because Steve wants to kick our butts?

[Aldain]

Just now, MirageKnight said:

Because Steve wants to kick our butts?

If he wanted to do that he could have just asked, I'd be glad to throw down in a Boxing Ring.

[MirageKnight]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'd be glad to throw down in a Boxing Ring.

I get the feeling he'd rather do it vicariously through digital entities. You know, because reasons.

[ixidron92]

hace 18 minutos, Steel_Rook dijo:

it seems like they're sticking to it either out of sheer contrarian stubbornness or rather due to some kind of technical limitation that they don't want to admit.

I'm inclined to say the later. I think they screwed up making the code and they don't want to say they screwed up. That's why Pablo paused for several seconds before answering. 

[Aldain]

Just now, MirageKnight said:

I get the feeling he'd rather do it vicariously through digital entities. You know, because reasons.

Whatever those reasons are they wouldn't be out of fear of me...I'm a standard issue nerd build who has never thrown a serious punch in his life.

Hek, I'd gladly throw the match if it would get everyone else listened to.

[Azvalk]

The important thing is not the fact that it's a death.
The problem is that it's imposed.
It's like a bad and unfair game master dictating what's going on.
It does not belong here.
Not only that, but the worst part is that the basic idea was good.
Ideas change during the development, yes, perfect, we see it with the railjack, the interface had changes, simplification I think, and it's very good.
But to bring an unfair change, to an idea that was going very well, why ?!
Not only that, but in addition, it brings problems.
As players no longer want to attack their lich, DE had to improvise a way to get it leave.
And I tell you, there is a real problem ahead.
With empyrean, the lich will have access to their own ship, isn't it ?
What will happen if we fail our finisher there ?
If I see the lich leave its own ship, dying from a light of kuva because it laughed too hard killing us, I really don't know how I'm going to react ..

Edited December 7, 2019 by Azvalk

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

8 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

I get the feeling he'd rather do it vicariously through digital entities. You know, because reasons.

But we kick his butt he just dosent lose in the end:( that dosent seem fair and good game design 

[MirageKnight]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

that dosent seem fair and good game design 

Of course it isn't. Myself and a lot of other players would and do agree with you.

Try telling that to Steve though.

*sigh*

[Yunjuwo]

I keep saying changes need to happen. Then again I'm just one voice so I'll just be swept away by the rest. Still:

• Have us perform QTEs during the mercy cinematic in the case of a failed attempt. Successful execution will allow us to avoid death. Best solution imo since warframe is such an action focused game so QTEs should fit well here, and it's skill based, which I'm sure everyone will appreciate
• When attempting a mercy, add another cinematic before the mercy cinematic where the player and lich clash and struggle for dominance. In this brief, 3-ish seconds long cinematic (maybe add short lich dialogue, e.g. "I won't go down that easy, Friend!"), the player can choose whether or not to tribute a percentage of their maximum energy as insurance against death, similar to the "wager system" from Injustice 2. If enough, the energy sacrificed as tribute will guarantee that the player survives the lich's finisher, in the case of a failed mercy.
  • First health bar requires a tribute of 40% maximum energy. Second health bar requires 60%. Third requires 80%. If you don't have enough energy to meet the tribute, choose to tribute all remaining energy anyway, and then fail the mercy, your insufficient tribute can still act as a gamble; essentially, the percentage of maximum energy you gave up as tribute at that time will now act as the probability of you surviving the lich's finisher.
• If the above suggestion of an additional 3s cinematic still seems too long(slow) then remove the option to tribute energy, and make it so that energy is automatically given up as tribute for every attempt. The mechanics can stay the same but since now energy is given up automatically, tribute percentages can be reduced per health bar. Maybe now 25%, 50%, and 75%.

I don't think a simple "lose a lot of health when you fail the mercy" solution would work that well, since there's a lot of ways to go around that (Rhino, Hildryn, Inaros, instant heal with arcanes, etc.), not to mention everyone will cry about their favorite frame not being good for liches as other frames. However, the fact remains that there are indeed so many ways to fix this issue, but apparently no issue exists in the eyes of DE because with players leveling up survivability and recovery so high to the point where only huge, sudden bursts of damage that catch us off-guard can kill us, inescapable instadeath is an equal-for-all punishment that finally nerfs us demigods (and I gotta say, it's really lazy game design in a game like Warframe).

But hey, at least the lich's finishers look cool. Can't wait to get spanked by a lich named Thik Snu Snu..

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Of course it isn't. Myself and a lot of other players would and do agree with you.

Try telling that to Steve though.

*sigh*

Eh. More a reason to empty my wallet to eso then to warframe. At least with eso they put lube on before they shaft me 

[Azvalk]

il y a 3 minutes, Yun_Woo-Seok a dit :

apparently no issue exists in the eyes of DE because with players leveling up survivability and recovery so high to the point where only huge, sudden bursts of damage that catch us off-guard can kill us, inescapable instadeath is an equal-for-all punishment that finally nerfs us demigods (and I gotta say, it's really lazy game design in a game like Warframe).

*sigh* u.u

 

il y a 3 minutes, Yun_Woo-Seok a dit :

But hey, at least the lich's finishers look cool

50% bugged, 25% in walls.. for me at least..

[Urlan]

29 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Actually, I really like that idea...enemies using mods and all. Thanks for the civil and nicely thought-out response btw.

Agreed. Little more than lip-service and a condescending hand-wave.

No prob, hopefully this coming year will be a good one for Warframe and the community as a whole.

[Hyohakusha]

I could care less about losing one of 4-6 lives either way. It's completely arbitrary, and neither adds nor removes anything to gameplay. The truly annoying part is that they're just not going to bother doing anything about the murmur grind, they aren't going to add a way to boost stats, and all they said is that Palladino might be able to banish one lich you don't want per week. Whoop de doo. What even is the point of the feedback section existing. Either they flat out ignored the dozens of threads with 50+ posts suggesting ways to improve the system, or whoever goes through the feedback is blind. 

[MirageKnight]

25 minutes ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Can't wait to get spanked by a lich named Thik Snu Snu..

The mind is willing...but the flesh is bruised and spongy.

20 minutes ago, Urlan said:

hopefully this coming year will be a good one for Warframe and the community as a whole.

Well said. I hope so as well.

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

I keep saying changes need to happen. Then again I'm just one voice so I'll just be swept away by the rest. Still:

• Have us perform QTEs during the mercy cinematic in the case of a failed attempt. Successful execution will allow us to avoid death. Best solution imo since warframe is such an action focused game so QTEs should fit well here, and it's skill based, which I'm sure everyone will appreciate

Something i rambled so many times as a way to act as a skill check, which truly decides of the lich levels up or not. They can just have the act of `doing the mercy`, trigger another planet they will cover. But the leveling part should honestly either be allowed to both raise AND LOWER the lich`s rank. That is one of the useful things the Shadows of Mordor or whatever you call it series did right, by being able to manipulate the `target`s` rank, you could get them into certain positions for various means. Seriously do not get why D.E. cant let us have a small QTE so it feels like we put an active effort to turn things around even if we did not get the right kill word on them.

Cause anyone else forgot those other `kill moves` the Liches were going to do such as doing the drill like thing the queens tried to do on us?

Quote

• When attempting a mercy, add another cinematic before the mercy cinematic where the player and lich clash and struggle for dominance. In this brief, 3-ish seconds long cinematic (maybe add short lich dialogue, e.g. "I won't go down that easy, Friend!"), the player can choose whether or not to tribute a percentage of their maximum energy as insurance against death, similar to the "wager system" from Injustice 2. If enough, the energy sacrificed as tribute will guarantee that the player survives the lich's finisher, in the case of a failed mercy.

I always enjoy a good fun system, But sadly i do not think D.E. would let us get to enjoy such a mechanic, where people will likely cheese it by running in with max energy to just full dunk the lich every time. Rather they do something neat where we pick between our secondary or melee to show down them and decide if they level or not. Likely using particular ques or something the murmurs could of teased at to one-up them on the showdown moment. Granted that might just be the FF13-2 nostalgia speaking to me for interesting one vs one kinda moments.

Course considering how many animations they would have to code for each weapon type, likely do some sfx linking that could be between dozens of various for the guns and melee weapons on top of that and different showdown animations using each of them. Sadly i think that would be just as unlikely. 😞

Quote

I don't think a simple "lose a lot of health when you fail the mercy" solution would work that well, since there's a lot of ways to go around that (Rhino, Hildryn, Inaros, instant heal with arcanes, etc.), not to mention everyone will cry about their favorite frame not being good for liches as other frames. However, the fact remains that there are indeed so many ways to fix this issue, but apparently no issue exists in the eyes of DE because with players leveling up survivability and recovery so high to the point where only huge, sudden bursts of damage that catch us off-guard can kill us, inescapable instadeath is an equal-for-all punishment that finally nerfs us demigods (and I gotta say, it's really lazy game design in a game like Warframe).

But hey, at least the lich's finishers look cool. Can't wait to get spanked by a lich named Thik Snu Snu..

Considering the lich ONLY does the bane spine break every time, unless they snuck it onto PC in the rising tide update for other finishers, I still rather they get rid of the instant kills and change it with something that feels more like a nemesis show down, where the lich leaves since your overpowering them but you cant kill them and they rather not have you brute force your way to kill them, especially after you attempt to kill them with multiple shanks, but they still feel the pain of it.

With the `kill` and level only occurring if you botch the `showdown` qte or you do it so many times without getting the right word in multiple missions, he just straight up punk slams you into the ground, which could just act as a nice anti-cheating measure to prevent people from running it without mods or purposely using the wrong ones to cheese out those 3 symbols then trying to guess work it.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Avienas

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

I'm inclined to say the later. I think they screwed up making the code and they don't want to say they screwed up. That's why Pablo paused for several seconds before answering. 

And I'm inclined to believe this. Everything since the Old Blood has had this air of Mass Effect Andromeda / Anthem, reeking of a development sliding sideways, creating and scrapping a lot of work, then eventually desperately struggling against unreasonable release deadlines, slapping together whatever they have that's working and promising a "road map" stretching months down the line. I'm absolutely willing to believe that in the rush to kick The Old Blood out the door and buy themselves a couple of weeks, the Assassin system couldn't be properly adapted. The whole Kuva Lich system itself feels like a placeholder.

But if that's the case, then I'd frankly respect them far more if they'd just admit it. Admit that you're behind schedule, admit that your big reveal didn't pan out, announce a delay. Sure, people would complain but you'd retain your integrity. This doubling down and INSISTING that what's fairly obviously a technical limitation is EXACTLY as they designed it, no seriously it's good... That rubs me the wrong way. It reminds me of then Paragon Studios lead developer Matt Miller having to beclown himself on the forums defending a certain content gate with weak arguments, only for it to much later emerge that... Yeah, that was the publisher's decision that he basically HAD to defend and that's the best he could come up with.

DE don't have a publisher, though - not that I'm aware of. I do believe a Chinese company of some sort owns majority stake, but I don't really think that's influencing their decisions. Frankly, this smells like petty pride and a refusal to admit mistake. Maybe I'm reading too much into this particular issue, but that's a pattern of behaviour at this point. Opening the Dev Stream with a list of patches delivered and doing a sarcastic "But what have you done for me lately?" bit was exactly the kind of petty, catty, tone-deaf back-hand diss I would expect out of wounded pride.

  

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I don't think it ever was humiliating, it was just more...insulting that they had to stoop to "Rocks fall, everyone dies" levels of BS to make Lichs seem "threatening".

I agree - it isn't humiliating but DE are trying to spin it this way with the whole "role reversal" meaninglessness. They couldn't implement a proper Lich guessing game, so they're now shipping this as a feature, seemingly to try and save face. But that was kind of my point, though - it doesn't work. What negative emotions it creates are directed towards the game and what theme it was trying to push doesn't work. A "role reversal" only works if the roles are actually reversed, when they really aren't. Breathtakingly little about the Kuva Lich system is different from Vanilla Warframe. We're still unstoppable monsters slaughtering our way to victory, except now occasionally we have to die through no fault of our own. For me, even my anger at the game subsided after the first few attempts. At this time, throwing myself on my Lich's sword just comes across like the cost of doing business.

Ah, my Lich is here. Let's try my sequence. Good, good, nope! OK, I guess I lose a revive but hey - 10 Murmurs, cool. I'm not afraid of my Lich because there's nothing it can do to me. It can't beat me in a fight, it won't run away unless I let it and at worst it'll cost me 10% affinity, which is realistically not that different from said Lich stealing 10% of my Credits at the end of the mission. You can't do "power reversal" unless you commit to it. The War Within was proper power reversal, because it had the balls kick me out of my Warframe and off my Orbiter and then lock me out of the rest of the game until I was done. And during that time, I controlled a crippled wounded child who could barely waddle much less dominate. Even though I knew everything would be fine by the end, that experience was still FAR more disempowering than getting kneed in the nuts by my Lich once every few missions. One is an actual experience, the other a minor annoyance which has no reason to exist.

[DoomFruit]

10 hours ago, Aldain said:

Look at the bright side.

We no longer need to bother with the system at all, since DE doesn't want to bother with it either, just kill your current Lich and never make one again, make the system deader than Archwing ever was and we'll see how they feel in a few months, or when they add Corpus or Infested equivalents.

 

8 hours ago, Sunder said:

I'm just going to avoid the Lich portion of the game entirely. If they're not changing it? I'm not playing it.I know my personal opinion is not something DE cares about but I've been playing the game for years and I'd like to see it continue to grow and expand. That being said, I don't want newer players to come across this and feel the same as I do and simply quit the game out of frustration. I'll be warning people against getting into this aspect of Warframe. 

This. In a way, it's almost refreshing to know that the current state is final and that I can now completely and utterly forget about the whole "lich" mess (as opposed to waiting on it and hoping that it's going to improve). It's a shame that they've wasted however many weeks/months/years(?) of development time on a pile of crap, but what can you do.

And yeah, it's a pretty good idea to spread the word that this red icon thingy hovering above some enemies is a trap laid by the devs and that you should avoid triggering it wherever possible (thank god it's on the use button and not the melee button). Not only will it lock you in place in a game that's all about constant movement, but doing it past a certain point will indeed get you buried neck deep in bullS#&$.

 

9 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

The Tenno aren't worried about the death of their Warframes, but they are essentially the peacekeeping force of the origin system...now working towards stopping an oppressive tyrant that they, themselves, created. It makes perfect sense that they wouldn't hesitate to throw themselves into harms way...as they regularly do just that. The fact that the liches go from a downed state to suddenly murdering you could be explained by the incorrect sequence of requiem mods being what imbues them with greater power, rather than their murder of you...so they get a rush of strength and break you before departing through their further ascension.

If you're going that route, why can't we just stand there with our ignis/plasmor/amprex/whatever and just pour fire into them until there's nothing larger than a glucose molecule remaining? There is no overkill, there is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

Edited December 7, 2019 by DoomFruit

[TenebraeAeterna]

19 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

If you're going that route, why can't we just stand there with our ignis/plasmor/amprex/whatever and just pour fire into them until there's nothing larger than a glucose molecule remaining? There is no overkill, there is only "open fire" and "I need to reload".

From a lore standpoint, they appear to have Lobo immortality.

So, that wouldn't finish them off...as the requiem mods seem to be the only thing that can strip them of such. It's also possible that the Tenno are immortal too...and that all of those who believed they could be killed in their true form are actually wrong. When we die in Operator form within story-quests, the devs added a weird scene of us floating within the Void until we're spawned where we previously died. This could just be a pretty loading scene...or it may be an indication that when Tenno are killed, they simply manifest unconscious within the Void until they regain enough strength to return to the Origin System...unbeknownst to them.

...or we could have been mortal, unless we chose to drink the Kuva.

Not that any of this matters... The Liches seem to have Lobo immortality, when taking lore into consideration............it's just not really shown in game very well.

[Paradoxity]

16 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Confirmed in the devstream. No plans to change it. If you stab it, you'll die. 

Of course, they wasted so much time mo-capping those kill scenes and you're gonna enjoy them whether you want it or not, Damnit! They read the feedback, like they said. They noticed several people complaining about that, and... no f*cks given.

So, voice your opinion people: Do enjoy Liches killing you no matter what? Yes? No? Is the fact that liches will always kill you something that discourages you from playing the lich system?

I said it in another thread, but way I see it, this is good news. It means 1) My decision to avoid the entire lich mess was well-founded and 2) I don't need to spend money on plat for a long while. 

If this whole attitude of "It's an interesting power reversal" or W/E is their excuse as a whole, it's probably safe to say they're not gonna be going anywhere fun in the future, either. Making us play Russian roulette every single time we go to kill the lich isn't 'kicking our butts', it's GM Fiat- and a bad one at that. 

[Azvalk]

I just watched the stream again, just to analyze everything, and I finally found some hope in Scott's words, about eventual future change for the liches.
I have concluded that the unfair death that worries us will probably be part of what will be changed. It's just not their priority right now, they're busy on far too much stuff to do, so they'll come back in the year.
Personally, I don't care if it's going to be fixed now or later, I don't even want a date, I just want concrete and confirmed hope, that it will be fixed someday.
I listened to Steve in his answer, and I still do not understand..

"One of the thing that we discovered when we did the finishers for the liches, was it was very interesting or unique for the game that there is someone to kick your butt, for a change, cause you kill everyone, and so that's why we did that inversion" - Steve

So .. can someone accept that ?
Me, there, I see a bad idea.
I mean this idea, this implementation, is not worthy of DE talent, not worthy of Warframe standard quality.
Of course we want an enemy able to kick our butt, for a change.
We gladly accept that.
But this way is not good, sorry to be a little difficult in our taste for game design.
We want a legit fight !
This is not the case right now, the lich, cheats, purely and simply.
And this cheating, brings in addition, a problem of coherence in the initial concept.
I'm sorry, I'll never see a death of the lich in this little red light animation. And even if it is a death why? Why does the lich die ? We didn't manage to hurt it. It laughed too hard ?

So, I can understand that it takes time to make the necessary changes to the gameplay sequence, and that, therefore, everything is postponed for when they have time to deal with it, ok, but I really hope for a confirmation.

[MirageKnight]

4 minutes ago, Azvalk said:

I just watched the stream again, just to analyze everything, and I finally found some hope in Scott's words, about eventual future change for the liches.

I wouldn't hold your breath.

They've made promises and "we'll look into it" statements before and then some of us are strangely surprised when, 6 months later, they haven't done squat or are still "talking about it".

Just saying.

7 minutes ago, Azvalk said:

This is not the case right now, the lich, cheats, purely and simply.
And this cheating, brings in addition, a problem of coherence in the initial concept.

Agreed. The real problem is the fact that enemies have to cheat to be any sort of challenge to "vet" players and their power-creeped meta builds these days.

Gee...you think maybe our tools are a bit too powerful? Nah... /s

I did like the suggestion that someone offered in another thread that enemies have base health and damage (like us unmodded) but that they could use health and damage mods to boost power at higher difficulty levels.

[Azvalk]

il y a 15 minutes, MirageKnight a dit :

I wouldn't hold your breath.

They've made promises and "we'll look into it" statements before and then some of us are strangely surprised when, 6 months later, they haven't done squat or are still "talking about it".

Just saying.

yeah I know..
We must not let our attention go.
If we talk about it again, at the right time regularly, they can't forget it ^^

il y a 16 minutes, MirageKnight a dit :

Agreed. The real problem is the fact that enemies have to cheat to be any sort of challenge to "vet" players and their power-creeped meta builds these days.

There are lots of little cheats that I could accept from the liches if they need help to be at our level.
I mean, if you show up with 90% damage resistance, it's effective against all enemies, ok, but against the lich, it's only 50% efficient, or less.
This kind of cheating on their part, I could accept it, because there is always a "legit fight" to be done.
Personally, I face my lich with Revenant ..
As soon as it touches me, it goes to sleep xD
I could accept that this effect only works for a very short time, or once in two for example..

[H0B0Z]

17 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And I'm inclined to believe this. Everything since the Old Blood has had this air of Mass Effect Andromeda / Anthem, reeking of a development sliding sideways, creating and scrapping a lot of work, then eventually desperately struggling against unreasonable release deadlines, slapping together whatever they have that's working and promising a "road map" stretching months down the line. I'm absolutely willing to believe that in the rush to kick The Old Blood out the door and buy themselves a couple of weeks, the Assassin system couldn't be properly adapted. The whole Kuva Lich system itself feels like a placeholder.

Everything after TennoCon 2018 reeks of feature creep. 

Railjack has morphed into this fundamental transformation of "what Warframe is".

Just Listen to Steve at TennoCon 2019. They want to "tie everything together."

They showed us a scripted version of what this would look like if they could snap their fingers and implement it all perfectly and now they are drowning in a sea unrealistic expectations.

Edited December 7, 2019 by H0B0Z