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As a long term vet, the RNG stats on new content is having the opposite of its intended effect, for me.


RedDirtTrooper
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Endless grind while hoping for a random RNG maxed roll is not incentivising me to continue replaying content. It's making me want to disengage from said content all together. I have a ton of Kuva weapons to farm, and as someone who actively pursues mastery ranks, the fact that I haven't even interacted with my current Kuva Lich in I don't know how long says a lot. I'm getting the same feelings about Railjacks as well. I understand that you want folks to have long term goals to get them to keep playing content, but chasing better RNG stats feels awful. Is this what we have to look forward to from here on out? Because this is the opposite of what made Warframe's loot grind so fresh and better feeling that almost any of its competitors. I could take a totally new player, show them something super cool, and if they worked hard and put in the time, they could acquire the exact same thing. Riven's were already a huge break in this system, but at least we could mostly ignore them without impacting the game much, but these last two updates have just pushed it even further away from that. I had my fill of chasing better rolls on RNG stats back in Diablo 2, endlessly farming the same uniques and runewords, over and over again hoping for those fabled max rolls. As someone who enjoys optimizing builds, these systems are bad for me psychologically, so I avoid them. I know I'll never be satisfied with a non optimal roll, nothing less than the max ever feels "good enough" and I'll throw myself at that wall until I hate what I'm chasing, hate the game it's in, and hate the people who made it. As much as tiny .01% drop chances are aggravating, I'd rather see that all day everyday than chase RNG stat rolls. So is this all we have to look forward to DE? Is this your preferred solution for extending content life and just how it's going to be going forward? I'd really like to know.

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1 minute ago, Sitchrea said:

It's only three parts, though. Only the Shield Arrays, Engines, and Reactors are RNG. Everything else is static. I don't see why everyone is in such a tizzy over them.

Well some of it is because at the moment different people are getting different stats even when in the same team and the fact there is even rng on them in the first place doesn't appeal to all players (I'm not a fan of rng like this either)....

The ships should be about picking your preferred combination of parts for 'your ship', it shouldn't be about what you luck into. 

 

Now I'll admit I pretty much agree with the OP, I'm not a fan of the lich system and I'm not a fan of railjack either in all honesty (too much micromanagement and essentially 2 people are stuck on the ship).... they've both made me pretty much log out after I logged in, as much as I wanted to play the game at that moment, as soon as I logged in and had the same 'welcome' from a lich that I'd already heard more times than I can remember I just couldn't be bothered to play...

Their current state is just not 'fun' for me and they feel more like completing a list of chores, especially in the case of the lich, than engaging game play.  And before someone says it, it's not burnout, it's the new game modes being 'poorly' designed. 

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10 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

It's only three parts, though. Only the Shield Arrays, Engines, and Reactors are RNG. Everything else is static. I don't see why everyone is in such a tizzy over them.

Because it’s not rewarding to get another version of the same part only for it to be a worse version. I’d honestly just take a part that I know right out is worse from it’s name.

Also, could’ve sworn I saw that there are gun drops having RNG stats too

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9 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

It's only three parts, though. Only the Shield Arrays, Engines, and Reactors are RNG. Everything else is static. I don't see why everyone is in such a tizzy over them.

For one thing, because it's a naked attempt to paper over lack of content with RNG grind which has no respect for players' time. For another, because it may or may not be just those things. I've heard numerous players report different stats for Turrets, including directly to me. I don't know how much of that is UI bugs and how much is actual mechanics, but Railjack being this broken makes it hard to tell either way. DE have been trying to come up with ways to introduce more grind, when they should be looking for ways to introduce more playable content that isn't broken in every conceivable way.

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I actually like the RNG concept of it.  But I also like games like Diablo.  As long as MK3 is always better than MK2, slowly grinding out that max drop is fine with me.  

However, just because of the resource grind, I'd like it if you could choose to "Upgrade" the component, and reduce the resource cost by half or something.

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Well I wouldn't mind that much if mk1, mk2 and mk3 all had no overlap.

But it feels like a waste of time when I do veil missions and all my mk3 reactors don't exceed +25 avionics. While mk2 gear from the dojo that is cheap to build actually gives me +30 and others have gotten mk2 gear dropped that is +40. 

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44 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

For one thing, because it's a naked attempt to paper over lack of content with RNG grind which has no respect for players' time. For another, because it may or may not be just those things. I've heard numerous players report different stats for Turrets, including directly to me. I don't know how much of that is UI bugs and how much is actual mechanics, but Railjack being this broken makes it hard to tell either way. DE have been trying to come up with ways to introduce more grind, when they should be looking for ways to introduce more playable content that isn't broken in every conceivable way.

Personally I think DE have fallen firmly into the trap of trying to do things that other games already do better. I'll use Destiny as an example because that's what I'm playing right now; others familiar with different games may want to chime in here. 

In my opinion, Destiny does a better job with randomness in equipment stats. Weapon perks and stat differences offer enough difference beyond merely "better or worse." Even with armor that has objectively fewer stat points, you often find a better allocation of those points to suit your preferred build.

DE had plenty of examples to pull from when it came to implementing random stats with pathways into the "fun and interesting" zone. I don't know why they didn't do more to take good ideas from the competition, because right now it looks like DE is adding randomness to the game that is just less fun than what you can find elsewhere.

Edited by notlamprey
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50 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

I actually like the RNG concept of it.  But I also like games like Diablo.  As long as MK3 is always better than MK2, slowly grinding out that max drop is fine with me.  

However, just because of the resource grind, I'd like it if you could choose to "Upgrade" the component, and reduce the resource cost by half or something.

All they'd have to do to satisfy me is open up an alternative pathway allowing slow but steady progression without relying on randomly finding a god roll. If I could use components of the same type to incrementally improve my main one, eventually maxing it out at the highest possible stat I'd be okay with it. The Kuva Weapon fusing patch went half way towards fixing them. If they'd just gone one step further, and allowed you to burn inferior weapons to increase the elemental bonus by 1% I wouldn't hate it nearly as much. Just give me some way to actually have an impact on progressing towards the maxed version that doesn't involve simply haling Lootcifer harder.

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19 minutes ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

All they'd have to do to satisfy me is open up an alternative pathway allowing slow but steady progression without relying on randomly finding a god roll. If I could use components of the same type to incrementally improve my main one, eventually maxing it out at the highest possible stat I'd be okay with it. The Kuva Weapon fusing patch went half way towards fixing them. If they'd just gone one step further, and allowed you to burn inferior weapons to increase the elemental bonus by 1% I wouldn't hate it nearly as much. Just give me some way to actually have an impact on progressing towards the maxed version that doesn't involve simply haling Lootcifer harder.

I'd be okay with this too.

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1 hour ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

Endless grind while hoping for a random RNG maxed roll is not incentivising me to continue replaying content. It's making me want to disengage from said content all together.

Then don't replay it. I'm not actively working to hunt down the best gear. I'm just playing through the content and grabbing what I grab. If, months down the line, I happen to grab something with better stats when replaying through the lower level maps, maybe with a clan buddy late to the Railjack party (assuming I ever get clan buddies), or just because I felt like it... cool!

Nobody and nothing is forcing you to get the highest level of stats possible.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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1 hour ago, Sitchrea said:

It's only three parts, though. Only the Shield Arrays, Engines, and Reactors are RNG. Everything else is static. I don't see why everyone is in such a tizzy over them.

I did a mission with a clanmate and we got a reactor, my reactor was +12, his was +18, we've for the most part been using my ship since I have better guns and other stuff so this reactor was barely better than the dojo research one and a lot more expensive to craft.  I have no problem with the RNG aspect of the parts but they need to be the same for every squad member, having a better item drop for the guy with the worst ship and no resources to craft it is extremely aggravating.  To top it all off the guy who got the better item has pretty bad net and since the only way to use his ship is for him to host it's even more annoying.

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30 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Then don't replay it. I'm not actively working to hunt down the best gear. I'm just playing through the content and grabbing what I grab. If, months down the line, I happen to grab something with better stats when replaying through the lower level maps, maybe with a clan buddy late to the Railjack party (assuming I ever get clan buddies), or just because I felt like it... cool!

Nobody and nothing is forcing you to get the highest level of stats possible.

I explained in my post that this type of content compels me psychologically to flail away at it until I achieve the best possible roll. If this isn't an issue for you, congratulations. I wish it weren't for me, but recognizing the problem and how I respond to it doesn't actually do anything to alter my reaction. It's a completely subjective thing, rooted in how these systems make me feel. As I said, I try to avoid games with this kind of RNG treadmill because I know how I react if I let myself get invested in it, and it's not pleasant. So, nobody and nothing, except my own brain. That's fair, missing the point, but fair.

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3 hours ago, Klaleara said:

I actually like the RNG concept of it.  But I also like games like Diablo.  As long as MK3 is always better than MK2, slowly grinding out that max drop is fine with me. However, just because of the resource grind, I'd like it if you could choose to "Upgrade" the component, and reduce the resource cost by half or something.

The problem here is two-fold. Well... Three-fold if you could "we're still not sure if Wreckage parts are SUPPOSED to be RNG," but assuming that they are... Warframe has historically not been a game of randomly-rolled loot. Getting the item you want might be RNG, but that item always drops with the same stats. Rivens are the one major exception, and I thought we all agreed that those are a TERRIBLE idea which DE keeps around because it generates a lot of money, as all gambling systems do. Now it seems like DE want to turn EVERYTHING into Rivens, from Kuva Weapons to Railjack parts to I wouldn't be surprised most weapons eventually. As someone who absolutely despises Rivens and would love for nothing more than to take them completely out the game, this kind of system is really upsetting to me.

Secondly, there's the issue you brought up - there's no deterministic fallback to bad RNG. There's no way to "upgrade" components to their higher-roll versions and that wouldn't solve the issue even if it existed. I maintain that The Division's "Optimisation Station" is easily the best approach to randomly-rolled items to date. Pay resources to slightly increase the value of the rolls, do it multiple times to reach their maximum roll. Most of these games also have re-roll systems, with The Division famously allowing Classified Gear Sets to reroll two of their traits. Frankly, games like The Division and Diablo - the "looter" games - tend to be very exploitative with their drops for no reason other than to keep people grinding away even after we're bored of the game. I personally stuck with Warframe because despite its grind, at least it didn't have THAT aspect. Now it does.

MMO mechanics seriously feel like infectious diseases at times. No matter how bad it might be, a terrible monetisation/retention mechanic will spread from game to game as long as it generates perceived revenue.

 

2 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

All they'd have to do to satisfy me is open up an alternative pathway allowing slow but steady progression without relying on randomly finding a god roll. If I could use components of the same type to incrementally improve my main one, eventually maxing it out at the highest possible stat I'd be okay with it. The Kuva Weapon fusing patch went half way towards fixing them. If they'd just gone one step further, and allowed you to burn inferior weapons to increase the elemental bonus by 1% I wouldn't hate it nearly as much. Just give me some way to actually have an impact on progressing towards the maxed version that doesn't involve simply haling Lootcifer harder.

I.E. a deterministic out of bad RNG. I don't think you'll find much pushback on the subject because most people are fine with having a fallback. The problem is that developers generally don't like doing that. It puts a maximum grind cost on items where the whole point of RNG grind is to be a Skinner box. You give the player a few treats randomly as they ring a bell, then slowly reduce the treats and eventually take them away altogether, but the player keeps ringing that bell. Obfuscating the intended cost is why lootboxes are so successful, and why developers trying to sell items directly are met with such shock at the exuberant prices. Players will scoff at paying $30 for a Mercy Skin, but they'll buy $30's worth of loot boxes trying to get it, stocking up on voice lines and sprays and other things nobody wants. If you give players a fallback, you give them an end point and either give them too much hope that they stop being affected by the gamble, or too little hope that they start complaining.

Long story short, though - I agree.

 

2 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Nobody and nothing is forcing you to get the highest level of stats possible.

AKA the "gun to head" excuse. Nobody's putting a gun to your head to make you do X. That's what publishers use to claim developers aren't being overworked during crunch because "nobody put a gun to their head to force them work," it's the same excuse often used to justify predatory monetisation. After all, nobody put a gun to my head forcing me to buy Platinum or buy loot boxes or grind for hours and so fundamentally undermine my experience of the game. Hell, nobody put a gun to my head and made me play in the first place. If I'm not happy, I should just leave. Because whatever the issue is, it's MY fault. It can't possibly be predatory monetisation which makes the grind deliberately painful, the rewards deliberately RNG and yet still peppered paid shortcuts the whole way through. It can't possibly be a development team abusing standard incentive mechanics to push players into gameplay which ultimately goes against their own self-interest.

"Nobody is forcing you," "nobody's putting a gun to your head," "you chose to grind" - none of these are valid excuses. We go to games because we enjoy playing them. When malicious design masquerades as the things we like doing as a means of subverting our habits, that's not on US as players. Do you know what happens when a player actually approaches their status with responsibility? You end up with the disgustingly cynical view of video games that I have. I fully recognise that modern games are not made to be fun. They're made to extract as much money out of me as possible while giving me as little content as the developers can get away with, all ideally without me realising it. I recognise that the only way to enjoy modern video games is to give into the P2W, give into the scam and let yourself be exploited to some extent. But that only works if you're always aware of the ways developers use to try and extract money out of you for nothing in return. The modern-day player HAS to be able to play developers at their own game and get as much content as they can access while paying developers as little as possible.

And if you think I'm exaggerating for the sake of hyperbole, I'm really not. This is literally the mentality I NEED to employ in order to enjoy modern video games without massively over-spending on them, and I say this after having spent ~€450 on Warframe in less than two years. If developers are going to put in deliberately exploitative monetisations in our games but hide behind the "gun to head" fallacy, then it's only natural that players respond in kind.

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Next step, random stats frame. from 100 to 400 as possible roll. Be happy to farm parts then forge it and see the results health 240, energy 150, armor 50, shield 75. Your friend's one health 350, energy 300, armor 200, shield 175.

Will you accept it ? No, you will farm every parts one more time to have something near BiS as much as possible. BiS that will be available only on the market with platinum.

Warframe is trying to mix the worst of all F2P monetisation. Sad.

Edited by (PS4)Herrwann69
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11 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

I have a ton of Kuva weapons to farm, and as someone who actively pursues mastery ranks, the fact that I haven't even interacted with my current Kuva Lich in I don't know how long says a lot.

For me it's kind of worse; I'm far more interested in getting moar weapons than in the MR. And I'm particularly fond of the Grineer aesthetic.

But I can't get excited about getting a weapon which is inferior to another example of the same weapon.

I actually really enjoy doing the missions in Lich territory, 'cos the enemy levels are just right for my skills and equipment. But it puts a real downer on my enthusiasm when I get another Lich with a low-roll duplicate. Psychologically, I'd rather run the missions and get no weapon drop, than get one which could have been great, but instead is worthless to me.

It irks me that I have all these Kuva weapons in my Arsenal which I won't invest in and use. I'm not glad to have them, and if I ever do get them maxed out, I won't be excited about them anymore. And the Warframe I know and love never felt like that.

I have to accept quite a few things IRL which are sub-optimal. I'm not pleased that Warframe has started to make me feel the same way.

9 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

All they'd have to do to satisfy me is open up an alternative pathway allowing slow but steady progression without relying on randomly finding a god roll. If I could use components of the same type to incrementally improve my main one, eventually maxing it out at the highest possible stat I'd be okay with it.

^ This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This.

10 hours ago, LSG501 said:

The ships should be about picking your preferred combination of parts for 'your ship', it shouldn't be about what you luck into. 

I haven't experienced Railjack yet (too busy with Liches), but I agree with this on principle.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Next step, random stats frame. from 100 to 400 as possible roll. Be happy to farm parts then forge it and see the results health 240, energy 150, armor 50, shield 75. Your friend's one health 350, energy 300, armor 200, shield 175.

Will you accept it ? No

Damn right I wouldn't accept that.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

No, you will farm every parts one more time to have something near BiS as much as possible. BiS that will be available only on the market with platinum.

No I wont. I'll stop playing the game. 'Cos that's nothing like fun anymore.

Edited by OmegaVoid
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I hate RNG stats on items. Its why i hate games like Division 2 and assasins creed odyssey. Just let me pick the stats from a points system or give me a single weapon.

The worst design in modern games is giving you piles of loot that has absolutely no value. While eating up time having to filter all the junk out. Its what killed my desire to play mobile games like brave frontier, final fantasy record keeper, final fantasy mobius and many more.

These types of systems are'nt rewarding they're just repulsive as you eventually end up spending more time trying to figure out whats worth keeping than you do actually playing the game.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Next step, random stats frame. from 100 to 400 as possible roll. Be happy to farm parts then forge it and see the results health 240, energy 150, armor 50, shield 75. Your friend's one health 350, energy 300, armor 200, shield 175.

Read your comment and it generally frightened me away from buying ivaras prime access... God DE dont do this please.

Edited by CarrotSalad
Felt outrage!
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12 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

It's only three parts, though. Only the Shield Arrays, Engines, and Reactors are RNG. Everything else is static. I don't see why everyone is in such a tizzy over them.

wrong. weapons have rng variance as well. so far i have only noticed different fire rate values but i only have repaired 7 mk3 guns so far so there might be more.

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Just now, grindbert said:

wrong. weapons have rng variance as well. so far i have only noticed different fire rate values but i only have repaired 7 mk3 guns so far so there might be more.

Pretty sure that is your intrinsics or House variant, not an RNG roll.

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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

AKA the "gun to head" excuse. Nobody's putting a gun to your head to make you do X. That's what publishers use to claim developers aren't being overworked during crunch because "nobody put a gun to their head to force them work," it's the same excuse often used to justify predatory monetisation. After all, nobody put a gun to my head forcing me to buy Platinum or buy loot boxes or grind for hours and so fundamentally undermine my experience of the game. Hell, nobody put a gun to my head and made me play in the first place. If I'm not happy, I should just leave. Because whatever the issue is, it's MY fault. It can't possibly be predatory monetisation which makes the grind deliberately painful, the rewards deliberately RNG and yet still peppered paid shortcuts the whole way through. It can't possibly be a development team abusing standard incentive mechanics to push players into gameplay which ultimately goes against their own self-interest.

"Nobody is forcing you," "nobody's putting a gun to your head," "you chose to grind" - none of these are valid excuses. We go to games because we enjoy playing them. When malicious design masquerades as the things we like doing as a means of subverting our habits, that's not on US as players. Do you know what happens when a player actually approaches their status with responsibility? You end up with the disgustingly cynical view of video games that I have. I fully recognise that modern games are not made to be fun. They're made to extract as much money out of me as possible while giving me as little content as the developers can get away with, all ideally without me realising it. I recognise that the only way to enjoy modern video games is to give into the P2W, give into the scam and let yourself be exploited to some extent. But that only works if you're always aware of the ways developers use to try and extract money out of you for nothing in return. The modern-day player HAS to be able to play developers at their own game and get as much content as they can access while paying developers as little as possible.

And if you think I'm exaggerating for the sake of hyperbole, I'm really not. This is literally the mentality I NEED to employ in order to enjoy modern video games without massively over-spending on them, and I say this after having spent ~€450 on Warframe in less than two years. If developers are going to put in deliberately exploitative monetisations in our games but hide behind the "gun to head" fallacy, then it's only natural that players respond in kind.

seeing this made my day. just gonna copy and paste this to every "no one is forcing you" response.

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On the plus side, by the time I manage to get a MK3 component with stats anywhere near worth investing resources in, if I ever do, I may actually have enough resources to build it instead of just spending 50 plat to skip the resource grind. Maybe. Of course, I'll never actually USE my Glassjack for any of this, just join other peoples games, or solo by running my taxi way out past aggro range and using archwing and crew ships to finish the objectives. After building that single component I'll still be doing the same thing waiting for more RNG components to be worth upgrading, just so hypothetically at some point in the future I may actually have a Railjack that's actually worth using.

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It's having a similar effect on me. I repaired one item and promptly decided not to repair anything else until the community decides which MK III stats are "acceptable". Until then I'm sticking to clan researched components. I could care less about "god roles".

Lets say this whole "random roll" thing is the route DE is going to take and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Would you rather have the current random percentage ranges, which result in items being "good" or "bad"?

Or would you rather have a pool of random perks, whose values are set, which results in some items being "ok" and some items being "better" depending on your play style?

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