Warframe isn't pay to win, but...

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

Warframe isn't pay 2 win period.

[Hexsing]

I feel like pay to win is reserved for PVP games or games with PVE elements thar require money to progress.  

Yes.  I have put money down. I love this game.  But what I have doesnt make me better than someone investing in a specific weapon.

Sure with the plat that I got from the Ivara prime pack opened up a lot of doors.  But I figure that I'm playing with others to support a team.  I'm not really winning. I'm not better than the Excalibur who is still using the Braton.  Heck.  

Sure you can buy top tier weapons.  Sure you can buy frames and omit the grind.  

But trust me.  I bought forma. And weapons.  I bought weapons for friends for tennobaum.  And I have a lot of options.

But.  The people who have mastered their weapons are outshining me in content.  

Sure I have a ton of stuff.  But it doesn't mean I can use it.  

[Jangong]

For me, as long as warframe's core gameplay(TPS&A) is still there, I will continue playing it.

 I do an solo for 99%+ missions and dont realy care about the outside changes. I have't start railjack a single bit since I am not interested in this content individually.

 

 

[(PSN)hades297youthful]

Play to win only applies if u need to pay to progress I.e. u hit a block u can't surpass without opening ur wallet. U really don't have that in warframe 

 

[Itsmez]

5 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

You can obtain platinum via trading yes. But that is still pay 2 skip. Coz all that plat was payed by someone else.

No.

[Mints]

I've said this so many times I feel like I've been screaming it through a megaphone from the rooftops: I soloed the Sentient Outpost mission in the Veil within a couple weeks. I didn't spend ANY platinum to do it. You don't even need guns since you can boost drift fighters to death by ramming them to death and crewship reactors pop like a balloon when you empty a Tigris into them. If I can do this then anyone can do this. If you felt the need to pay for a Rush Repair Drone to win at Railjack then you're not a very fast learner.

[SastusBulbas]

Fact.

 

There are items in this game that cannot be bought with plat or in game credits, they may be cosmetics, but regardless, pay to win.

[HolySeraphin]

1 hour ago, SastusBulbas said:

Fact.

 

There are items in this game that cannot be bought with plat or in game credits, they may be cosmetics, but regardless, pay to win.

Wow I can kill SO MUCH FASTER with that cool syandanna and tennogen skin, do you guys even understand the concept of pay to win? This is pathetic. 

A free player can get the same primes (except Excal Prime, but that's why they made Umbra) , same prime weapons and same mods which the guy who paid over U$300 has. It is just a matter of time, that's why it is called "Pay to skip". If Primes were exclusive to prime access then it would be pay to win, but they're not, and anyone can farm them, and any mission and content is available to everyone

Edited December 26, 2019 by HolySeraphin

[Itsmez]

10 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

Yes. Every plat you own was bought by someone else. Who used that plat to buy something. So every time you are using platinum to buy something to skip the grind it's pay 2 skip. DE allows trading but their intention is for you to put that platinum out of system by buying forma bundles, skipping annoying grinds and most obvious with new update wreckage repair drones.

When you say a game is labeled P2W or P2S, you would expect that you would have to spend money yourself for the win or skip. Because thats what the label says, but you dont need to spend any money. You can get aal that for free.

Yes someone spends money on it but you dont yourself. You cant label a game P2S if you dont actually have to pay for it

[Kaotyke]

Every game with monetization is P2W.

Even Single player games like God of War 4.

Those people pay to play that game. So its a win for them.

Only hopscotch is true F2P.

... wait, someone had to BUY the chalk to draw it.

OH !

[Itsmez]

2 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

I give you 10$ for a trade of some item. You spend that 10$ somewhere to buy something. Oh no that was totally free. I didn't buy it with money I owned.

Just for once in your life think outside of the safe box you are in

[Itsmez]

17 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Pretty sure that applies to you. Coz no matter how you spin it Warframe has a lot of Pay 2 Skip mechanics.

Yeah but the thing is you dont have to pay for it. You cannot label something P2S if you dont even have to pay for it

Yes it has P2S option, but its an option not requirement. You cant label something PAY 2 skip if youre not requiret to pay for it

Edited December 27, 2019 by Itsmez

[SilvaDreams]

3 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Ok if people stopped paying platinum in the game and all of it was used up. Only way for you to get more would be to pay for it with your own money.

You didn't pay that plat directly by using YOUR money but someone ELSE did. They just payed you virtual currency to skip their grind and buy the item from you. And if you spend that plat on something other than cosmetics or slots that is Pay 2 Skip. Money was exchanged in first place for that to happen.

Well you are doing that IRL too whenever you buy something. You are paying for someone else to do all the work and just getting a finished product.

[Itsmez]

6 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Ok if people stopped paying platinum in the game and all of it was used up. Only way for you to get more would be to pay for it with your own money.

You didn't pay that plat directly by using YOUR money but someone ELSE did. They just payed you virtual currency to skip their grind and buy the item from you. And if you spend that plat on something other than cosmetics or slots that is Pay 2 Skip. Money was exchanged in first place for that to happen.

You still cannot label it as P2W, because you dont have to pay. If you label something P2W you would expect that you have to pay for something instead of getting it by playing it. If you label somethin P2S you would excpect that youre required to pay something to skip and not get it through in game.

When people ask is the game P2W in means theyre asking are they required to pay something to get the good stuff.

As i said yes warframe has P2S option, you can pay for stuff if you want, but because the trading economy devs have allowed it so those who doesnt have the money or want to support the devs, you can still get those benefits. You cannot label warframe P2S but it has an option for it.

Im quitting here because at this point its pointless to argue about it. you either understand it or not, up to you.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Itsmez

[Itsmez]

11 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Well here is the thing. Technically while you can get plat by "free" you still need to invest time and resources for chances to get those items you are able to trade to begin with.

Starting players won't have access to those options and with how limited your starting inventory limit is a lot of new players will still feel like they need to buy platinum to get more gear ( specially not knowing you can sell weapons you no longer use to free up space ) and yes while you can grind for anything tedious grinds are made that way to encourage P2S options. DE wants you to buy platinum and spend in the market. While they allow you to trade that plat you bought for a new prime set their first intention is to spend those plat resources in market.

Again remember every single amount of platinum you have someone bought and used to pay 2 skip some kind of grind coz they got a mod or riven or prime parts or syndicate stuff from you.

As I said before there is absolutely nothing stopping a MR2 from just buying plat, buying a max rank serration and wiping the star chart with a overpowered weapon you were not supposed to have at start or just skip the grind and buy the most op frame that is in the game atm.

[MacKerris]

Is so funny how people are redefining what PTW is just to fit their narrative. Pay to win was never that you had to pay. It is when you can pay to advance beyond others. Pay to get items that give you the advantage. Pay to get the tools to beat the "boss". Pay to skip ahead.

In PvE people generally didn't /don't care about PTW except in raids. Where the idea that someone could just buy the gear that others worked hard for just doesn't sit right with many.

Having to pay to be able to finish content is a whole other thing. Often it's an extreme version of pay to win.

 

[Itsmez]

52 minutes ago, MacKerris said:

Is so funny how people are redefining what PTW is just to fit their narrative. Pay to win was never that you had to pay. It is when you can pay to advance beyond others. Pay to get items that give you the advantage. Pay to get the tools to beat the "boss". Pay to skip ahead.

In PvE people generally didn't /don't care about PTW except in raids. Where the idea that someone could just buy the gear that others worked hard for just doesn't sit right with many.

Having to pay to be able to finish content is a whole other thing. Often it's an extreme version of pay to win.

 

Yes but nowdays people cry about everything. Even if you can get that "P2S" currency completely free, giving you the same advantage for completely free

[Itsmez]

1 hour ago, ChaosSabre said:

I got no argument against this. Quick let me drop a meme.

Pay 2 Skip. Using currency that can only be obtained via real money transfers to buy ingame items that reduce or skip the grind.

Checkmate.

Hell just show someone the forge waiting timers and ability to skip those with plat and they'll think you are showing them a mobile game.

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, M3tallius said:

This game is not pay to win.

But it is. Can you pay real money to get something gameplay-related without having to earn it in-game? Yes? Then you have just paid to win, simple as that.

Edited December 27, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Itsmez]

51 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

I see you fail to understand that someone already payed real world moniz to have that 50p in game? That 50p didn't magically appear in the game out of nowhere.

You didn't pay for it. But someone else did. You are still using platinum that someone payed for. Any platinum usage no matter where you got it from was created from real world money.

Therefore any usage of platinum on P2S mechanics is P2S that was payed for.

You can white knight all you want here but it'll never change that all platinum in game that exists is payed with real money and you are trading virtual money that way.

[-Kittens-]

On 2019-12-23 at 11:06 AM, continue said:

Warframe is not pay to win.

It entirely is pay to win: don't have a riven for that gun you like? The only way to guarantee you get it is buy it.

Buying a frame or weapon invalidates MR, buying a potato doubles your drain capacity, no gameplay needed

Don't have that mod that'll  let you ignore damage or inflict 300% damage yourself? buy it.

"But you can get those mods yourself"

Talk to the people that still don't have all of stalker's gear after seven years, talk to the people that ground out 100 missions for gradivus to get a weapon nerfed into obsolescence within two weeks. Talk to people still waiting for that one riven out of 300+ to drop their way.

Let's not kid ourselves; the people whom don't pay with money pay with time, a crap ton of it.

[Itsmez]

11 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

It entirely is pay to win: don't have a riven for that gun you like? The only way to guarantee you get it is buy it.

Buying a frame or weapon invalidates MR, buying a potato doubles your drain capacity, no gameplay needed

Don't have that mod that'll  let you ignore damage or inflict 300% damage yourself? buy it.

"But you can get those mods yourself"

Talk to the people that still don't have all of stalker's gear after seven years, talk to the people that ground out 100 missions for gradivus to get a weapon nerfed into obsolescence within two weeks. Talk to people still waiting for that one riven out of 300+ to drop their way.

Let's not kid ourselves; the people whom don't pay with money pay with time, a crap ton of it.

Or just sell of your prime junk and buy them 

[Itsmez]

12 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

Someone gave me 20$ steam gift card. I bought a game with it. That means neither steam nor the game developers did earn any money from it and it was a free game that magically appeared in my library because I didn't use my money for it coz someone else gave it to me. Therefore nobody payed for the game.

Do you now realize how stupid it sounds when you say a Pay 2 Skip mechanic is not a Pay 2 Skip mechanic just coz you used someone else's money to pay for it?

But it was a free game for you

[SordidDreams]

13 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Let's not kid ourselves; the people whom don't pay with money pay with time, a crap ton of it.

That's the true genius of WF's business model. You know how a lot of online games prohibit real money trading? And despite that every popular online game has a population of Chinese item farmers toiling away and selling stuff to other players? DE has turned that around, instead of trying to stamp it out, they implemented that officially. That's what plat trading is, by trading items for plat, you turn yourself into one of those item farmers. Except it's DE that gets paid for it instead of you.

[Zebiko]

Definitely pay to win. Pay wall and p2w are two different things, and understanding the difference is key. Most people have different definitions of p2w because they cannot see what the winning condition is. Many disregard the winning condition because of their personal values, but that shouldn't devalue it as a monetary source. Many think skipping is a luxury, but fail to realize time is money irl. It's valuable and can be monetize. 

Companies also like to cloud the truth from you so that you cannot make an informed decision or takes effort to find out what is the most valuable option, aka most bang for your buck. Layers of real money currency is an example of this, as they are not normally 1:1 ratios. They could technically display all Plat values as money values, but that would  make the p2w too obvious looking. Imagine trading items in game for money, dollar value, instead of Plat? Would that look weird to you? 

Also people forget the old saying "if it's too good to be true, then it is." How is a high quality game, despite the current flaws, a free game? In reality, it's not, and it's a business like any other. And they will use any tactic to convince you to buy their product, even lie to you about what the product is. Catch phrases can do this, such as 'ninjas play free.' 

Ask yourself, did you spend money on this game? The reason behind it does not matter, just say yes or no. I don't need to know either. If you said yes, then the game was technically not free to you. They successfully convinced you to spend money on it, for whatever the irrelevant reason was. (although not so irrelevant to the business, because knowing what you spend on can and will influence future monetary additions to the game). 

Knowing the business model and understanding how they make money helps understand why certain things are in the game. Inventory space is an oversight for most people. It's an inconvenience created by the devs and monetized. Even if you don't spend your money for Plat, but trade for Plat in game, you are helping DE make money. How? You are removing Plat from the system when spending traded Plat for items, such as inventory space. Removing Plat removes supply, creating more demand. Any economics book or resource will have a supply and demand graph and an explanation how that works. The longevity of the business depends on the flow of Plat.

Grind is also an inconvenience created for the purpose of monetization. Don't want to grind for a new warframe or a new prime weapon? Don't want to spend too much time playing the game? You can buy to skip the grind, lessen it. 

An extreme example of a game offering an item for free and options to buy to skip the grind is Wargamming's world of warships current event with the USS Puerto Rico, colloquially named pay-to-rico. It's blatantly impossible to grind the ship for free in the time allocated by the devs. So extreme, that it's basically a pay wall if you want that ship for your collection. That dumpster fire is currently raging on their forums and reddit.