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Empyrean: it should not be possible to refine resources mid mission.


(XBOX)KayAitch
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I just came across this in public matchmaking - it might be trolling, but might also just be stupid.

The captain whose squad I joined had an underpowered railjack, so was relying on a teammate to keep patching breaches - I saw this and went down to make more revolite, and at the same time the patching teammate arrives.

Great, I think, we can get 4 batches of revolite going, bit instead they refined resources.

Er... ok?

Next breach we didn't have enough revolite and the ship died. 

That was the worst example, but you get dumb teammates doing this all the time, most commonly just after a mission - we had enough to recharge everything, but they refine and now I have to take us all back to dry dock to resupply (or start a mission with no revolite and no munitions).

I'm not sure what the use of refining resources is - we get a little glut of them, sure, but mid mission that's useless if we don't complete the mission, and if we do complete the mission we should just get them anyway.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

God forbid making a mission idiot or troll-proof.

Sure, but this only seems useful for trolling. Sure players can build Dome Charges when you need revolite and so on. I don't think we need to fix all bad teamwork.

But Refine is like a big red STOP ALL FORGE ACTIVITY button you can hit in the middle of a mission.

What's the non-troll use case?

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Still doesn't understand why refine exists in the first place. There should be no annoying 200 cap and all the resources should be auto-refined at the end of a mission. It's as if they added refine just to justify the engineer role and give him something to do when there's nothing to repair, to which I answer "just use the turrets or take care of the annoying crewships".

It's annoying because as a pilot, nobody ever builds any ammunition or repair mats, meaning I have to warp back there every now and then to craft crap myself,leaving the ship unatended. I also have to refine because nobody checks the cap and every time I go down there it's capped at 200 in multiple categories. Probably wasted thousands of ressources because of that cap, and because the engineer is too scared to refined in case we need revolition (which we don't since my ship is tanky enough not to get that many breaches) . And when the mission finally ends and I want to start a new one immediately, some dude always refines before I have time to replenishes stocks, meaning I have to go to dojo and endure multiple loading or start with depleted ammunition.

All of these issues could be avoided by removing the cap and making refine automatic at the end of the mission.

 

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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39 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Probably wasted thousands of ressources because of that cap

If you grab a resource and it goes over the cap, it just goes to your inventory as if it was refined anyways.

It just means you can't use it in the Forge.

The Forge capacity, plus refining, was really ALL put in just to justify an "engineering" role, after they scrapped so many ideas from the original Tennocon for the sake of making the game mode faster. I remember they originally had the idea of "power management" and being able to just load out your ship with "everything" but only be able to have certain things active. Which sounds WAY more interesting than having limited ammunition that costs resources.

I'm still annoyed we can't use the Tunguska cannon to blow up capital ships like in that original demo, where a Tenno inside had to disable the reactor's shielding for us first.
Not to mention how heavily botched the whole "dropping into the ship at high speed from space" thing was.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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Or, you could make sure the engineer is not a doofus.

Top off all resources and only refine when you hit cap and are topped off.

Also upgrade your ship.  If you run out of revolite mid mission with a full tank it means you aren't geared properly for the mission you are doing, could be not enough health, armor, dps or a combination.  

You can be a suck pilot and get hit by every rambled and sit in the middle of 2 crewships and a dozen fighters in the veil for long enough for the pilot to go clear the cs by hand (ie boarding not dome charges) as long as your engineer isn't stupid you'll be fine.  I know because I've done this.

 

If you can't do this you need to farm or buy better mods/gear.

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As far as i know it already does auto refine as well. So all that needs to be done is to have the button removed and the problem goes away. Anything that you pick up above the forge capacity does after all already go into the players inventory.

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2 hours ago, Vahenir said:

As far as i know it already does auto refine as well.

I'd thought that, too, but then everybody started yelling at me when I didn't give them time to do it as host. All I know is, when I go back to Dry Dock, I would see a bunch of those Forge resources suddenly dropped into my inventory, so I thought it was automatic.

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19 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The Forge capacity, plus refining, was really ALL put in just to justify an "engineering" role, after they scrapped so many ideas from the original Tennocon for the sake of making the game mode faster. I remember they originally had the idea of "power management" and being able to just load out your ship with "everything" but only be able to have certain things active. Which sounds WAY more interesting than having limited ammunition that costs resources.

I'm still annoyed we can't use the Tunguska cannon to blow up capital ships like in that original demo, where a Tenno inside had to disable the reactor's shielding for us first.
Not to mention how heavily botched the whole "dropping into the ship at high speed from space" thing was.

Which tbh is just another letdown of 2019,  
liches + empyrean were so promising at tennocon, but then nerfed into the ground for the sake of "fast".

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9 hours ago, Teliko_Freedman said:

This sure explains why my resources suddenly flatlined to zero when I already wiped out half the enemies, and new players finally showed up

Yeah, that happens to me all the time too. Dunno why, as they'll get those resources if they wait, and get nothing if we run out of revolite or get it slower because there's no flux/munitions/cannon shots.

3 hours ago, HowDenKing said:

Which tbh is just another letdown of 2019,  
liches + empyrean were so promising at tennocon, but then nerfed into the ground for the sake of "fast".

To be fair: what was shown at Tennocon was crazy ambitious. I'm happier with getting 60% of what was promised now and seeing where this goes next.

I love that the Galleon and Asteroid tilesets are railjack objectives - you can see how this all joins up and where it's going.

But yeah, engineering is a bit half baked right now.

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On 2019-12-28 at 6:03 AM, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Still doesn't understand why refine exists in the first place. There should be no annoying 200 cap and all the resources should be auto-refined at the end of a mission. It's as if they added refine just to justify the engineer role and give him something to do when there's nothing to repair, to which I answer "just use the turrets or take care of the annoying crewships".

It's annoying because as a pilot, nobody ever builds any ammunition or repair mats, meaning I have to warp back there every now and then to craft crap myself,leaving the ship unatended. I also have to refine because nobody checks the cap and every time I go down there it's capped at 200 in multiple categories. Probably wasted thousands of ressources because of that cap, and because the engineer is too scared to refined in case we need revolition (which we don't since my ship is tanky enough not to get that many breaches) . And when the mission finally ends and I want to start a new one immediately, some dude always refines before I have time to replenishes stocks, meaning I have to go to dojo and endure multiple loading or start with depleted ammunition.

All of these issues could be avoided by removing the cap and making refine automatic at the end of the mission.

 

I am usually an engineer. I have noticed most other players that are not the pilot, leave the ship and do archwing stuff.
I make sure the revolite etc levels are topped up.
If there is a quiet moment (and crew isnt full), i will use slingshot on crewship and use omni to return to railjack to keep up with repairs/forge/boarders.
At end of mission i make sure forge is full then i hit refine, as there is no guarantee next mission won't glitch, and can collect more resources during mission.
And those that don't stay for the next mission should get resources from refine at end of a mission.

Downside to being an engineer is staying with the ship most of the time and not having fun with the murderous Tenno rampage outside the railjack.
Upside of being an engineer and healing the ship is the greater number of intrinsics granted for participation than happens for endeavours done by other players outside the railjack.

Having said that, my warframe engineering life would be made better if i didnt have to stay with the ship so much.
Would be nice to pilot, slingshot crewships more often. There is a balance in there somewhere.

Would be great when Refine is hit, that everything in the forge was topped up first.
And when we get the command intrinsic (which will allow easier solo railjack missions), if the forge capacity isnt changed to something a lot larger, lvl 10 engineering wont be all that good. Each auto-repair will use 100 revolite.

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On 2019-12-27 at 9:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

Or, you could make sure the engineer is not a doofus

How do you do that in a PuG?

On 2019-12-27 at 9:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

Also upgrade your ship.  If you run out of revolite mid mission with a full tank it means you aren't geared properly for the mission you are doing, could be not enough health, armor, dps or a combination.  

Yes, I need level 3 gear that only drops in level 3 missions, but my ship isn't level 3 everything yet. It takes ages to get everything maxed (even if you spend a lot of plat).

I don't think "don't fly tough missions until you have the gear that drops in those missions" is a solution.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

How do you do that in a PuG?

Yes, I need level 3 gear that only drops in level 3 missions, but my ship isn't level 3 everything yet. It takes ages to get everything maxed (even if you spend a lot of plat).

I don't think "don't fly tough missions until you have the gear that drops in those missions" is a solution.

for me, I don't pug anything above saturn.

saturn I can solo blindfolded, so, pug doesn't matter.

i can also technically solo veil, but the difference is 3-5 min per mission or 20 min if I have to do it all myself.

I recruit, starting with clan, moving to alliance and then to general, and I fill all my roles before I go.

once I have my roles filled, i explain the features and expectations politely and we're off.  so far this has been working for me as I've been able to grind 9,9.10,9,0 and made a fair amount of plat over my prior investments.  of the couple hundred or so folks I've had on my ship, only a small handful have been either incompetent and or jerks.  this is because the early adopters are all us try hard folks that want to have the new shiney first, so most of us know how to play nice and get the job done.  this may not be the case in a year, but by then the meta will be overtly established and a dozen hotfixes, expansions and upgrades will have happened.

It"s the same reason most people recruit if they want to do 8 waves of eso, or if they want to do an arb over an hour.  granted I can solo carry those, but most who want that can't, so you recruit for it.

You also seem to be under the false impression that you need to use your ship to clear the nodes and get the high value mk 3 drops.  this is not true.

if you ship sucks because your rng sucks, then join a recruited group.  you can engineer in the veil with 4+ , be bored most of the time and get all the gear you need without needing to do much of anything.   don't like to be an engineer?  then farm up your boarding skills and get all 8s.  maybe be a pilot, though I recommend this one the least because any ship that is good is likely piloted by the owner, because they have it set up with certain strategies that will be too much of a pita to communicate to a random pilot for 3 missions.  the point is, you get the same drops either way, so why not join someone's ship that will clear the node far faster than yours if all you're doing is farming anyway?

If you insist on using your ship, and clearing the nodes yourself, with the rng you get, that's a personal choice you have made and since there are other options available equally to everyone you don't get sympathy points for that.

Additionally, I have been able to find/fill groups at all times of day since launch, so that's not a viable excuse.

I understand the frustration that you can't do exactly what you want when you want it, but that's part of the challenge of the game.

I also am annoyed that I still don't have a vidar reactor of 60+ and that I can't get the ephemera or umbral forma containers to even spawn, much less drop what I want after about 70 runs of each.  that said, boo hoo to me for not being able to get a cosmetic chase item and a forma I technically don't "need" to clear any content in the game.  just because I'm annoyed about it doesn't mean my gripe is valid though.

 

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On 2019-12-27 at 9:03 PM, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Still doesn't understand why refine exists in the first place. There should be no annoying 200 cap and all the resources should be auto-refined at the end of a mission. It's as if they added refine just to justify the engineer role and give him something to do when there's nothing to repair, to which I answer "just use the turrets or take care of the annoying crewships".

Yup. Far as I'm concerned, neither the resource cap nor the Refine button strictly need to exist. It feels like either a leftover from some old Engineering job which got mostly scrapper or just a kludge in order to make their "upkeep" resource sink mechanic work (which itself has no reason to exist). Seriously, simply remove the Refine button, maybe remove or double the Forge cap and simply force-Refine all leftover resources. After that, refill everything to base level for the next mission so players don't need to stop and craft at the end or keep going back to the dojo. This is complexity of the sake of complexity.

 

On 2019-12-27 at 9:33 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

The Forge capacity, plus refining, was really ALL put in just to justify an "engineering" role, after they scrapped so many ideas from the original Tennocon for the sake of making the game mode faster. I remember they originally had the idea of "power management" and being able to just load out your ship with "everything" but only be able to have certain things active. Which sounds WAY more interesting than having limited ammunition that costs resources.

That's what it feels like, yes, and I feel that's a major mistake. So much of the Railjack game mode feels like it was designed from the perspective of "We need to give EVERYONE some kind of busywork, what can we come up with to keep them busy?" There's absolutely no reason to HAVE an Engineering role in the first place. Imagine if you were doing a bounty in Orb Vallis and one player's job was to mine and fish REALLY QUICKLY while the rest of the team fought because the only way to recover energy was to consume fish and minerals. That's more or less what Engineering is right now. Consequently, you struggle to find people willing to do it. There are SOME and I'm among them, but it's still exceedingly rare.

It honestly feels like DE - in their signature derivative style - just tried to recreate Star Trek: Bridge Crew or Artemis Spaceship Bridge Simulator with no regard for whether any of it actually fit with Warframe's pace, mentality or general gameplay paradigm. We saw that with Melee 2.0 cribbing heavily from Devil May Cry in a way that just DOESN'T fit into Warframe and the major redesigns needed to make that work. I fully expect a redesign to Railjack to easily this extent at some point in the future, probably a year or two from now once it becomes clear that's not working. The same way DE gave up and let us circumvent mining and fishing.

And lets you think I'm just hating on the concept of engineering - I'm not. I played Engineer almost exclusively in Star Trek: Bridge Crew. I sat there balancing power loads, I sat there managing repair crews, I sat there moving crew about the ship to boost this or that system... And even then it barely worked for the same reason it doesn't work here. The pace of combat is too great and the communication required too significant for any amount of complexity to exist.

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