100% Status Shotguns: buff or nerf?

[nslay]

Here's a contour plot of the new pellet status vs status chance (live) and pellet count. There's no interesting structure or anything to see. It should just be depressing!

So the way it works... Pick a new status line (e.g. 0.15) and then any live status chance and pellet count along the curve will have that new pellet status chance (e.g. 15%). As you can see, 8 pellets at around 32% will result in the new 15% pellet status chance... This is close to Tigris Prime.

Here's the plot (forums not auto-inserting images?).

Here's the code to generate this plot:

https://pastebin.com/crQHgfqu

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, Ploidz said:

Is DE crew explaining further and talking with the community about this? I follow Steve on twitter, but I hardly use it and lately mine has been flooded with Devolver Digital spam (though it's funny stuff). It doesn't seem like Shotguns will be able to easily hit that 100% + to make use of the new status over 100 addition, unless a lot of shotguns will be over the x3 status buff.

I spent so much plat, and resources into Phantasma, I can't do anything but status on it, it has nearly nonexistent crit chance (3%). Waiting on this update to see the info for myself seems like an eternity.

Phantasma will be safe either way, since it's a beam weapon.

I'm not 100% sure exactly what's happening with the maths, but in so far as I can tell, the status/multishot interaction (where 100% status=all pellets proc) is gone or changing. But, since beam weapons don't interact with multishot at all, Phantasma and other status beams should behave the same before and after.

[Valkyr-Umbra]

On 2020-02-29 at 5:53 AM, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

No. Shotguns are staying how they are now, just the UI bug with status chance is being fixed.

 

Shotguns have status chance per pellet, but the UI currently multiplies that by the number of pellets.

 

So a shotgun with 30% status chance and 8 pellets (Tigris Prime) actually has a 3.75% chance of proccing status per pellet. The new system will multiply that by 3 and properly display status chance per pellet. In this case that's 11.25% status chance per pellet.

 

It's worth noting that the current build has a bug that's existed for a long time. If total status chance gets above 100% before multishot (i.e. 12.5% per pellet) it would give every pellet 100% status chance. That's being removed. A gun with 100% status chance total will now have the proper 12.5% chance per pellet.

 

@WhiteMarker they explained it better and in more detail in the devstream.

This post explains my interpretation of what they said in the devstream. In light of which, it seems to me that the 100% status pre-multishot builds are being nerfed (or fixed if you prefer, either way they'll be less strong). However, all other shotgun builds should be stronger, as base per-pellet shotgun status is being tripled. Consider my strun wraith right now, it currently has 40% base status (4% per pellet). However, with my 150% status chance riven, it hits 100% status pre multishot, meaning every pellet has a 100% chance of proccing a status.

Post change, the 4% per pellet status chance will become 12%, and with my riven, 30%. So, essentially, I'll be proccing 1/3 of the statuses I was per shot (I may adjust the build to include some 60% status mods, we'll see). Keep in mind though, enemy armor scaling is being reduced substantially and some status procs are becoming more powerful (gaining benefits from multiple procs) so its not entirely certain how much of a performance loss there will be. We may end up in a situation where these shotguns perform close to how they did previously, but other weapon types perform better relative to shotguns.

Personally, I feel like calling the 100% status pre-multishot thing a bug is kinda silly, after being ingame (and widely used in builds) for so many years without being addressed it became more a feature than a bug in the eyes of many. Not saying a balancing change isn't called for, but framing that balance change as a bug seems like PR speak to me, as "fixing a bug" sounds less controversial than "nerfing an OP build."

[nslay]

10 minutes ago, Valkyr-Umbra said:

Post change, the 5% per pellet status chance will become 15%, and with my riven, 38%.

Fixed that for you. Yes, the status is "divided" among the pellets, but that's not arithmetic division.

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Fixed that for you. Yes, the status is "divided" among the pellets, but that's not arithmetic division.

Yes because that difference is sooooooo massive x'D

 

You are technically correct that it's not arithmetic division but for quick estimates treating it as arithmetic is close enough and massively simplifies the math.

 

Yes it is an approximation. That's not a bad thing.

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Yes because that difference is sooooooo massive x'D

It results in 8 percentage points difference after the Riven... so yes, that's a noticeable difference!

[Zebiko]

Pretty sure 100‰ status shotguns are nerfed, because not all hits are going to proc status. But some will hit double statuses in the same frame, as Steve says, with greater effects/damage. 

Also the shotguns that were not able to reach 100% status are buffed now. Hek might even be more powerful with increases to status chance.

[hendrix923]

My question is if status effects are getting a boost in general, is this really a nerf to shotguns or just adjusting them so they don’t become overtly powerful?  If u lose 20% (shotguns) of something but then get 50% back (status rework) that’s a net gain.  Not many players use shotguns most of them have high dispos, I don’t think DE wants to nerf them anymore than they are.  Prob wrong but playing devils advocate here. 

[DrBorris]

Because I am a loser with no life, I put together a nerf/buff chart that is based on IF DE universally uses the (Old Status) x (3) / (Pellets). If they don't then obviously these charts are off. A positive % is a buff, a negative % is a nerf. Just because the trends are going down that does not mean something is worse, as long as it is above the 0% line then it is a buff.

Note that the status chance on the bottom goes up to 330% despite status chance mods generally caps out at 240% right now. Basically, each status interval on the bottom represents a combination of 60/60 mods and the new/useful 90% status chance mod. This addition also means that looking at any of the trends after 240% status chance is complicated due to those status chances not being obtainable right now (outside Rivens).

These charts show exactly what many have pointed out, this is a nerf to 100% status shotguns and a buff to everything else. However, one shotgun looks like it will benefit very much from the status change, and that is Exergis (due to its low base pellet count). I very much hope DE does not just use the equation they stated in the Devstream, many of these shotguns clearly need a "human touch" to their balancing. The x3/p equation feels far too punishing to shotguns that have high base pellet counts.

Also, funny thing, this chart doesn't show it but if DE uses that equation then Sancti Tigris will have a higher status chance than Tigris Prime.

Edited March 4, 2020 by DrBorris

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

9 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

Have you used a conventional rifle recently? As far as weapon performance goes, even without 100% Status Chance, shotguns are very competitive against their single pellet counterparts. If your comparison with the "normal" is comparing with the outliers way too far ahead, then 90% of weapons are not balanced to begin with. It's an overall buff if you ask me, opening them for significantly more versatility over their already good performance over rifles. If you've built your shotguns to be an all-rounded weapon with things like Reload Speed and Magazine Size, you're getting a straight status chance buff. If you're annoyed having to obsess over 100% status chance, you no longer need to shoehorn your build to revolve around hitting that ridiculous breakpoint. The only thing getting hit, is trying to force Shotguns to keep up with the absolute meta weapons, which doesn't really matter because you can just move on back to those meta weapons.

It's essentially the melee changes, except on a much smaller scale. General performance sees a lot of good increase in base functionality and versatility. Only the extreme meta chasing takes a hit.

By conventional rifle, I assume you mean something like Prisma Gorgon? Not recently, but I recognize that even 10% sc on an automatic rifle is perfectly serviceable for a hybrid build, given sufficient fire rate.

But you're mad if you take Strun Wraith to Veil Proxima without 100sc. It handles Veil, but only just. 4-6 trigger pulls to kill a boarder feels about right to me, 10 does not. I'm not chasing meta. I like the way my mid-tier gear performs when modded to handle the content I'm doing, and I don't want to see it fall to the point that it can't handle that content anymore. Considering RJ is like... 80% of what I do now.

Can Strun Wraith handle Veil with 60 pellet sc instead of 100? Maybe. My intuition says no. I don't really care about meta or how other people are modding their stuff. I understand that you're pleased that your shotty builds perform better with the changes. That's great and all. But it sounds like you see it as a bonus that the maximum effectiveness of some mid-tier equipment is reduced if it also produces a Tigris nerf. I'll try not to take it personally.

Apologies if I seem curt. It's late and I've had a very difficult week.

[RX-3DR]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

By conventional rifle, I assume you mean something like Prisma Gorgon? Not recently, but I recognize that even 10% sc on an automatic rifle is perfectly serviceable for a hybrid build, given sufficient fire rate.

But you're mad if you take Strun Wraith to Veil Proxima without 100sc. It handles Veil, but only just. 4-6 trigger pulls to kill a boarder feels about right to me, 10 does not. I'm not chasing meta. I like the way my mid-tier gear performs when modded to handle the content I'm doing, and I don't want to see it fall to the point that it can't handle that content anymore. Considering RJ is like... 80% of what I do now.

Can Strun Wraith handle Veil with 60 pellet sc instead of 100? Maybe. My intuition says no. I don't really care about meta or how other people are modding their stuff. I understand that you're pleased that your shotty builds perform better with the changes. That's great and all. But it sounds like you see it as a bonus that the maximum effectiveness of some mid-tier equipment is reduced if it also produces a Tigris nerf. I'll try not to take it personally.

Apologies if I seem curt. It's late and I've had a very difficult week.

My Strun Wraith without 100% SC is taking 4 ~ 9  shots to kill most enemies in the Veil. Testing on an Exo Elite Lancer, the TTK for a Primsa Gorgon and a Strun Wraith without 100% SC are both at about 3 ~ 4 seconds with a Critical + Corrosive build. The Strun Wraith isn't so much a Crit weapon, meaning it's expected to perform weaker as a hybrid Crit/Status build. Meanwhile, the Prisma Gorgon is 1MR higher so it is technically classed on the same level, or higher in base stats. I can also drop Chilling Reload on my Strun to get a cut down the TTK by about a second.

In this situation, a 3x base Status Chance would result in a significant increase in Status Effects, which would cut down the TTK for the Strun Wraith by a sizable amount over the Prisma Gorgon, ironically, likely giving you your intended end-result of the Strun Wraith taking less than 6 shots to kill troops in Veil Proxima. The specific meta of 100% Status Chance or bust is cut down but the overall performance will see enough of an increase to raise shotguns on the radar without having to force yourself into a singular build.

It does highlight how underwhelming many shotguns are and perhaps we might see some improvements to them, be it base stats or Disposition. The Tigris Prime is a prime example of this with 1 Disposition purely because of 100% Status Chance builds as opposed to it being a good or reliable weapon.

[0_The_F00l]

20 hours ago, nslay said:

And that's still worse than what you can do now considering you could also fit Vicious Spread and also proc Slash on around double the pellets in the current system. You're certainly not putting crit or crit damage on the thing.

The new system is not really great for Tigris Prime. It's a nerf for that shotgun.

As I said, a few will see a definite Nerf on both effectiveness and utility Tigris Prime being one of them as it already sucked at utility due to its reload and firing mechanics. 

 

[Loza03]

Quote

Corrosive

The first Corrosive Status Effect strips 26% Armor. Subsequent Corrosive Status Effects strip 6% more Armor, leading up to 80% Armor removal. Each Corrosive Status Effect lasts 8 seconds. Note: Corrosive was the only Status with infinite Duration and 100% Efficacy toward a defensive stat. This was necessary to some based on how Armor Scaled. We feel our rebalancing efforts need a differently behaving Corrosive to balance out all Status overall.

From the new dev workshop.

Well, it would appear that even without other status changes, there would have been a definitive nerf to status shotguns... or some. Depending on the gun, no longer having to worry about overstrip might be nice...

 

On the plus side, their goal seems to be to allow status effects on previously status-immune enemies

[Orokin]

16 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Also, funny thing, this chart doesn't show it but if DE uses that equation then Sancti Tigris will have a higher status chance than Tigris Prime.

The per pellet status will be lower for tigris prime, but it has more pellets. The tigris prime will still have a higher proc rate per trigger pull.

[-Kittens-]

18 hours ago, Zebiko said:

Pretty sure 100‰ status shotguns are nerfed, because not all hits are going to proc status. But some will hit double statuses in the same frame, as Steve says, with greater effects/damage. 

Also the shotguns that were not able to reach 100% status are buffed now. Hek might even be more powerful with increases to status chance.

Considering i have a riven with 96 rolls specifically for 100% status and +50% reload speed, no comment.

Edited March 4, 2020 by -Kittens-

[-AG-David_]

19 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Because I am a loser with no life, I put together a nerf/buff chart that is based on IF DE universally uses the (Old Status) x (3) / (Pellets). If they don't then obviously these charts are off. A positive % is a buff, a negative % is a nerf. Just because the trends are going down that does not mean something is worse, as long as it is above the 0% line then it is a buff.

Note that the status chance on the bottom goes up to 330% despite status chance mods generally caps out at 240% right now. Basically, each status interval on the bottom represents a combination of 60/60 mods and the new/useful 90% status chance mod. This addition also means that looking at any of the trends after 240% status chance is complicated due to those status chances not being obtainable right now (outside Rivens).

These charts show exactly what many have pointed out, this is a nerf to 100% status shotguns and a buff to everything else. However, one shotgun looks like it will benefit very much from the status change, and that is Exergis (due to its low base pellet count). I very much hope DE does not just use the equation they stated in the Devstream, many of these shotguns clearly need a "human touch" to their balancing. The x3/p equation feels far too punishing to shotguns that have high base pellet counts.

Also, funny thing, this chart doesn't show it but if DE uses that equation then Sancti Tigris will have a higher status chance than Tigris Prime.

Hey, nice. My boar is completely #*!%ed.

[Zsword]

Sobek looks nice and comfi at least. Can't wait for a variant of my angry dakka shotgun. (Boar is not angry, but is very dakka. Feels more like a hose than a gun.)

[-AG-David_]

37 minutes ago, Zsword said:

Sobek looks nice and comfi at least. Can't wait for a variant of my angry dakka shotgun. (Boar is not angry, but is very dakka. Feels more like a hose than a gun.)

My status hose is dead.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

19 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

My Strun Wraith without 100% SC is taking 4 ~ 9  shots to kill most enemies in the Veil. Testing on an Exo Elite Lancer, the TTK for a Primsa Gorgon and a Strun Wraith without 100% SC are both at about 3 ~ 4 seconds with a Critical + Corrosive build. The Strun Wraith isn't so much a Crit weapon, meaning it's expected to perform weaker as a hybrid Crit/Status build. Meanwhile, the Prisma Gorgon is 1MR higher so it is technically classed on the same level, or higher in base stats. I can also drop Chilling Reload on my Strun to get a cut down the TTK by about a second.

In this situation, a 3x base Status Chance would result in a significant increase in Status Effects, which would cut down the TTK for the Strun Wraith by a sizable amount over the Prisma Gorgon, ironically, likely giving you your intended end-result of the Strun Wraith taking less than 6 shots to kill troops in Veil Proxima. The specific meta of 100% Status Chance or bust is cut down but the overall performance will see enough of an increase to raise shotguns on the radar without having to force yourself into a singular build.

It does highlight how underwhelming many shotguns are and perhaps we might see some improvements to them, be it base stats or Disposition. The Tigris Prime is a prime example of this with 1 Disposition purely because of 100% Status Chance builds as opposed to it being a good or reliable weapon.

See, none of this actually matters because you can't full strip with corrosive status now anyway. It's additive reduction capping at 80%. So... I guess problem solved? The case for 100% sc is moot now.

That workshop pt.2 was pretty shocking, I did not expect some of those changes. I'm interested to see how all this will affect builds and weapon comparisons. And the general pace of combat.

Here's hoping DE pushes out cross-progression sooner than later, along with a way to copy inventory to the PC version. My new GPU is hungry for things to bite into.

[Ploidz]

On 2020-03-03 at 6:45 PM, Loza03 said:

Phantasma will be safe either way, since it's a beam weapon.

I'm not 100% sure exactly what's happening with the maths, but in so far as I can tell, the status/multishot interaction (where 100% status=all pellets proc) is gone or changing. But, since beam weapons don't interact with multishot at all, Phantasma and other status beams should behave the same before and after.

Turned out it's hopefully bugged. 7.4% status/projectile currently. Ouch.

[Loza03]

Just now, Ploidz said:

Turned out it's hopefully bugged. 7.4% status/projectile currently. Ouch.

How does that even work????

[Ploidz]

19 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

How does that even work????

Earlier today it was at a higher number, with my mods on it was around 106% but not proccing statuses much. Then a hotfix happened and after looking at my mods I noticed it was this, I was shocked.

This is how it was before, it shows a high status but it's not real.

9 hours ago, Wolfram said:

Here's some things I've noticed that are different from my testing before and after in the Simulacrum, on Corrupted Heavy Gunners level 120:

Phantasma is nerfed. UI doesn't indicate anything has changed except for the fact status adds up to 110% status now, but I've done a lot of testing for my build before the new Mainline update and after. Before the new build it used to melt enemies at 100% status, but with the new build it takes a long time to get the ball rolling on a target. I don't know what changed.

Phage seems to have gotten a buff. Also extensively tested this build for it, my build adds up to 60% status chance before, and after this update it adds up to 140% or so. This resulted in a good buff. 

Both of these are technically shotguns but are beam weapons. Phantasma didn't get this status change. Phage did. Please consider looking into Phantasma.

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Ploidz

[thats_rudiculous_07]

Literally shotguns got Nerf .. your lying to yourself if you don't think so

[Ploidz]

Not only do they have to deal with short range (damage falloff) they have to be messed with like this. My poor 3% crit Phantasma, that has nothing else to fall back on now that it has horrible status chance per.