Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[(PSN)HypedSniper]

Typical for you guys to ‘fix’ what didn’t need it in the first place. Vazarin is (or now was) my primary focus school. I always prioritise healing and now you’re tampering with it. Once again you are not listening to your player base and driving people away with unwanted changes. I’m disappointed to say the least.

[ShogunGunshow]

Any word on this? I'd like to explore these changes in Scarlet Spear.

Or is the idea to wait until Scarlet Spear is over.

[kyori]

On 2020-04-04 at 5:05 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Gara's

Can we have Mesa’s Shatter Shield having another augment that is similar to Gara’s Mending Splinters?... as in the form of giving defence target some damage reduction. 

[Anduvriel]

I thought it about it for some time and i understand why you want to get rid of full invulnerability that with a good play can last forever. I get it, but maybe its time to polish all the schools not just making one of the rarely used school not used at all?

Every school should have a staple like "this will make an aspect of my gameplay really good if i put some effort during the mission". Maybe change void dashes for all schools? Those are basic ideas and some if not all of the numbers should probably be tweaked. 

 

- zenurik has energy income, with it you are most likely to not run dry of energy ever if your build is not heavily in the negative efficiency. Why not make it less lazy and better when someone invests and maintains it?

Proposed change. Time of energy gain is 15 seconds not 30, there is no area, but refreshing it gives a stacking additive bonus to energy gain while your energy is kept at higher levels. You get 5 en/sec on 1st tier, 8 e/sec on 2nd tier, 12e/sec on 3rd, 16 on 4th, 20 on 5th tier, but to gain a tier you need to maintain the zenurik buff for 2 full cycles (30 seconds) while also being in consecutively higher energy pools (1st tier 25% of your energy pool to gain 2nd, 2nd to 3rd 35%, 3rd-4th 45% of your pool, 4-5th 55%) . If you use too much energy or not maintain the buff you lose a tier. (yes i know energy leeches would be a pain and primed flow required for it to work, but... 45% eff builds would be able to maintain energy pools without energise and or trinity)

Additional on the tree: After channeling void mode for 5 seconds you get a buff lasting a minute that allows to dash through an ally and give them half of your energy regen for 30 seconds, not stacking (highest version of zenurik buff is applied)

- naramon has combo counter easy to maintain so you will probably never lose more than 1-2 combo tiers if not moded heavily on negative combo duration which kinda serves no purpose right now.

Proposed rework. Dashing through an enemy makes him marked, killing that enemy with your melee gives you more combo counter and a buff to attack speed and movespeed 5% each, stacking 12 times. Each buff can be obtained only if the melee combo counter is also on that level. So to get tier 7 buffs you need to dash and kill and enemy while having a combo counter of 7 or more and do that 7 times. Buff lasts 15 seconds and is refereshable, loosing a buff loses half of the tiers. When reaching 12 combo and 12 stacks you get more area with your melee weapon (based on % of initial range, not less than +x so low range melee weapons get some love, works for exalted weapons as well)

Additional on the tree: void dashing through allies gives them movement speed portion of your buff for 30 seconds

why not give such staples to other schools?

- madurai  - damage buff from void strike 

Proposed change - void strike is gained on void dash. Each time you dash you get a stack of damage buff maxing out at 5. Each charge gives 100% x number of charges all damage buff. Cost of void dash depends on void charges eating (15x max charges)% of max pool operator energy. You loose stacks every 15 seconds. Stacks are eaten the same way as before on every damage abiliity/shoot etc

Additional on the tree: While in void mode allies in small range gain madurai stacks after channeling for 5 seconds lasting for 30 seconds (or when used up) up to your max stacks (tick rate is 1 stack per 2 seconds). Drain is doubled, different version add up to the pool (two madurai give the buff twice as fast up to max)

- unairu - does completely nothing (that armour and dmg reduction ... does anyone even use it? some invisibility, but only when in void mode)

Proposed change. Dashing through an enemy rips their armour apart striping it completely for 5 seconds. Killing a stripped enemy gives you and your operator a stacking buff to armour. Each tier is 150 straight armour before mods toping at 750 additional armour. You lose a stack each 15 seconds. Killing stripped enemy will refresh the duration. 

Additional on the tree: while you are in void mode for 5 seconds you gain a buff (minute) that allows to apply your unairu buff to allies (any allies, targets get 50% mulitplicative dr with other abilities - the only mulitplicative buff in the pool) through void dashing with 50% efficiency, not stackable with multiple versions of unairu lasting 30 seconds

- vazarin - gives invulnerability and healing now 

Proposed rework. Dashing through a target restores missing hp and raises %hp for a duration (any target). Each time you dash through an ally (your frame counts) you restore 10% (50% at max stacks) of their total hp pool and give yourself and an ally a buff to total hp% (5%,  25% at max stacks) lasting 15 seconds. After healing 5000 hp you gain a stack that last for 3 minutes. Each 5k healed refreshes the duration and raises the tier up, up to 5 stacks. All stacks are lost if any ally is downed or killed.  Buffs are not stackable from many version of vazarin, healing has an internal cooldown depending on stacks (2 seconds for each stack).

Additional on the tree: after staying in void mode for 5 seconds you mark allies as vazarin beacons in small area. They will be able to perform your vazarin dash with half efficiency for 30 seconds (stacking rules apply (targets cant receive more than 10% hp per second healing from vazarin)

 

What is the aim of this? To put simply to use all the schools and have fun with maintaining the buffs for a good profit especially in longer missions. Less lazy gameplay for more profit, no underperfoming schools. Maybe the timers are off , aimed for 15-30 seconds as it seemed to me long enough to not have to take care of it all the time, but maybe its too low or too much.

How it would affect stationary targets.. A support (any frame from the table) would give 50% dr, vazarin would raise hp by 25% at max stacks, unairu would give another 25% dr reduction at max stacks, so 75% dr and 25% max hp pool with hp recovery topped for vazarin at 10% hp per second. Should allow to keep most targets alive with investment and care. Problems would start at really high levels where that damage might still one shot the target. 

Why not give enemy damage %dmg to targets instead? So a simple grineer gunner level 5 does 1% damage with a shot to a lvl 5 excavator and a lvl 3000 bombard would still do (lets) 15-20% damage to lvl 3000 excavator while destroying with that rocket everything in the vicinity including the building and the tileset itself. Would be far more reasonable to see whats happening, reasonable to control and prevent stupid oneshots that you have no control over.. 

[Kainosh]

On 2020-04-04 at 12:05 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

100% heals is not what we want to do, so we are instead trying to allow the effects but adjusted as to not trivialize the game modes.

Then you also have to redo energy system by making it a Constant energy/second regeneration that cant be affected much by anything.  And even then you might still need to apply cooldowns to some of them abilities.   

   Because Rng orbs + Zenurik + all those energy Arcanes + HP for Energy mods + certain Abilities that can restore 100% energy....All that allows us to sustain infinite invulnerable defense, as we can easily get copious amounts of energy real fast to spam those abilities for cheese.

[Lutesque]

On 2020-04-23 at 2:17 PM, Anduvriel said:

I thought it about it for some time and i understand why you want to get rid of full invulnerability that with a good play can last forever. I get it, but maybe its time to polish all the schools not just making one of the rarely used school not used at all?

+1

On 2020-04-23 at 2:17 PM, Anduvriel said:

- zenurik has energy income, with it you are most likely to not run dry of energy ever if your build is not heavily in the negative efficiency. Why not make it less lazy and better when someone invests and maintains it?

Proposed change. Time of energy gain is 15 seconds not 30, there is no area, but refreshing it gives a stacking additive bonus to energy gain while your energy is kept at higher levels. You get 5 en/sec on 1st tier, 8 e/sec on 2nd tier, 12e/sec on 3rd, 16 on 4th, 20 on 5th tier, but to gain a tier you need to maintain the zenurik buff for 2 full cycles (30 seconds) while also being in consecutively higher energy pools (1st tier 25% of your energy pool to gain 2nd, 2nd to 3rd 35%, 3rd-4th 45% of your pool, 4-5th 55%) . If you use too much energy or not maintain the buff you lose a tier. (yes i know energy leeches would be a pain and primed flow required for it to work, but... 45% eff builds would be able to maintain energy pools without energise and or trinity)

Additional on the tree: After channeling void mode for 5 seconds you get a buff lasting a minute that allows to dash through an ally and give them half of your energy regen for 30 seconds, not stacking (highest version of zenurik buff is applied)

I would just Delete this School all together and address the real problem of Energy Acquisition just being finnicky in Warframe as a whole, unless you're running Zenurik or a Self Sustaining Warframe then you just don't know where/how you are going to get Energy. And I'm not saying this as a Genocidal, Thirsty Saryn/Equinox player, I'm saying this as someone who wants to play Mag or Loki more often especially with other Focus Schools that might actually be more beneficial to those Frames if they had some source of Reliable Energy other than Zenurik.

 

I guess what I'm saying is Zenurik is basically a Focus school that shouldn't exist because it doesn't feel like an actual class, it feels like a Band Aid to a problem that shouldn't exist. Sooo... why not Fix the root problem... then Delete The School. 

 

I mean... think about it... What Warframe doesn't need Energy ? its just Inaros and Hildryn... even then its not that Hildryn doesn't need Energy so much as her "Energy System" just functions differently than everyone else, so really its only Inaros who doesn't need Energy (and I hate content where Inaros really shines because of this). So naturally the Focus School capable of Producing Energy literally out of thin Air(Like seriously, even Trinity and Harrow can't do this without enemies to use as "Generators")  just sky Rockets in popularity simply because it provides a universally needed Resource where the other focus Schools just give really nice perks in things not every Warframe can use or really needs to function... yes even if you factor in the fact that you need health/shields for a Warframe, players just value energy more than being able to survive. like Zenurik is more valuable in the Void area of the Star chart than Vazarin/Unairu is despite enemies dealing more damage there.

I was thinking if there was a way to generate Energy using our weapons, since... for most Warframes, they always use their weapons, and weapon's can't hog all the fun in a group the way Saryn does, but in Groups where there is a Saryn she might want to not Spam 4 (I know thats not how Saryn actually plays) all the time so she can build up her energy reserves for the next time she hits 4. Hey... maybe its a bad idea... I can accept that... but its still way better than Praying for Energy Orbs.

 

On 2020-04-23 at 2:17 PM, Anduvriel said:

- naramon has combo counter easy to maintain so you will probably never lose more than 1-2 combo tiers if not moded heavily on negative combo duration which kinda serves no purpose right now.

Proposed rework. Dashing through an enemy makes him marked, killing that enemy with your melee gives you more combo counter and a buff to attack speed and movespeed 5% each, stacking 12 times. Each buff can be obtained only if the melee combo counter is also on that level. So to get tier 7 buffs you need to dash and kill and enemy while having a combo counter of 7 or more and do that 7 times. Buff lasts 15 seconds and is refereshable, loosing a buff loses half of the tiers. When reaching 12 combo and 12 stacks you get more area with your melee weapon (based on % of initial range, not less than +x so low range melee weapons get some love, works for exalted weapons as well)

Additional on the tree: void dashing through allies gives them movement speed portion of your buff for 30 seconds

why not give such staples to other schools?

I don't entirely understand the part with all the numbers... But I like the idea of using actual Operator Abilities to get the benefits from the school. That just feels alot more involved than... having a better Combo Counter just by having the School Active. +1

 

So... other than those things I'm afraid of Spoiler Mode as a whole being essentially just a Buffing Feature just for Warframes rather than having actual Functionality in terms of Gameplay.Obviously thats not the case but its something I'm afraid might happen if we lose focus (no pun intended) when reworking Spoiler Mode.

As for the Defens Objective Healing Rework.... Its looking good... 

If I could get some clarification on thing... so naturally Healing/Damage Reduction Sources don't Stack... or rather they don't Self Stack.... but will they Stack with Healing from a Different Source ?  Say... can Trinity and Harrow and Venari and Vazarin all simultaneously contribute to the Objective's Healing ?

[(PSN)Ibenadar]

I'm saddened by this post because it reveals a shocking lack of joined up thinking at DE. I can appreciate that you was to introduce a wider variety of viable squad picks because some frames just get deleted or left to molder after being rinsed for MR, but removing or breaking existing frame abilities is NOT the way to go. Picking the right frame, weapons, and configurations for the job at hand is a core game mechanic and player retention inducement to grind.

The suggested healing cap is a terrible starting point because it a static, non scaling mechanic and from the outset locks away synergy from squad choices. I use the adjective 'terrible' because you've described the non scaling of excavator health as a long term regretted issue in the patch notes about finally giving them a shaking health pool. How the heck could you start a review of Defense mechanics by reintroducing something you've been striving to remove. 

SUGGESTION A more sensible approach to balance low and high level game play is to allow all healing abilities to work AS IS on WFs, but control the ability of the STATIC defense targets to receive the healing burst % and heal-over-time %. At low levels everybody's healing is effective because they approach or are capped, at high levels unfocussed healers start to lose out by not reaching the caps and need to contribute more from their other abilities and in very high levels squad synergy matters.

Damage Reduction: From what was posted I don't think the originator understands it or has done a terrible job at detailing it. This should be obvious, but 50% DR allows 50% through, 70% allows 30% through and 90% allows just 10% through. Anybody particularly aware Titania can do this? No, because its essentially a trivial mechanism when compared to CC, aggro, or DPS kills to reduce inbound damage. 75%DR from Trinity starts to get noticed in the right situations and 90%DR can seem godly at first really diminishes in value once the enemy has scaled 100 levels. Leave the DR% alone and transfer it onto the Defense objectives AS IS from all capable WFs with only the highest ability value counting. Again, at low levels or short endless runs we have an increase in WF pick choice whilst retaining squad synergy at higher difficulties.

 

That Gara's DR is listed as 70% is depressing and sets up a shadow or unintended ubernerf. This, along with a proposed cap at 50% would trash the frame's defender abilities and completely remove her as a pick. The reason being that you would completely break her scaling mechanic on her 4th. For her 4th to even scale into sortie lvls the wall needs to encompass enemies. These enemies are attacking the defense target and without that DR in place its going to take a huge pounding as the enemy vitrify and again if they can't be burnt down before the short CC phase ends. Frost can reinforce without endangering the target, Khora can refresh without endangering the target, Limbo can refresh at a safe range and banish threats. Gara's 4th isn't even a 100%DR when it is up as it's subject to punch through and several AoE damage types. Before even suggesting removing her scaling mechanism (which you shouldnt) it would be good idea to fix the two glaring bugs with her 4th first. Vertically moving enemies ignore that the wall is there and any host lag leaves her stuck in her shiney fist animation with no wall, no SS refresh and a rapidly emptying energy pool. Even a minor lag spike can leave her new wall as a graphic entity only with no protection or refresh effect.

As to Scarlet Spear, even with a max armour, guardian and tanker arcanes activated her 4th isn't viable without the 90%DR on earth. in a murex fight the wall isn't even there to provide a barrier, it's to refresh the DR and vitrify for CC and increase DPS. Symbilsts shoot straight through the wall and Brachiolysts just ignore it and the others fly through the top or bottom.

This tactic ONLY works, at first, because of the supply of 100% energy cores.

It's nice that at least her 3rd finally does something useful as CC, but the range is far too small for the single instance casting, too expensive to recast as anything other than an oh-S#&$-gotta-do something-NOW and will remain unused outside the event once all the abundant energy refresh goes away.

Dropping her DR to 50% in any future version of Op-Link defense removes 80% of her damage mitigation ability and in non Op-Link Defenses destroys her scaling mechanic. Really take some time to think about this, nerfing Defender frames and Healing abilities in a Defense orientated mission is never going to improve that mission type adding additional Defender and Healer viability is.

[ReshyShira]

I like how despite the feedback about not nerfing Vazarin, it went completely unheeded.  Why bother asking for our feedback when you just go and disregard it?

 

 

Well, none the less I shall go back to using Zenurik like 99% of the playerbase.

[Lutesque]

I don't think its as big a deal as some people are making it seem simply because in alot of cases, you don't really make progress by defending Defense Objectives, all the missions where this seems like its the Case require Killing enemies to make progress one way or another... I think Defection and Mobile Defense are the only defense mission types that genuinely don't require killing a single thing for any reaoson... but pulling that off requires specific builds.

[NoSpax]

Now, if we only could heal objectives using OpLinks...

[SilverBones]

This change is now live!

If you have further feedback, please use the following thread:

Healing Abilities on Objects
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1189074-railjack-revisited-part-1-healing-abilities-on-objects-feedback-megathread/