Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[(XBOX)Deputy Facepain]

On 2020-04-03 at 3:34 PM, Voltage said:

These changes will benefit the low end, but heavily nerf the high end which is very sad.

Par for the course in recent updates. It’s really staring to feel like they could care less about anybody who’s spent a lot of time, and effort figuring out their game. Every time with the claim of “expanding options” yeah right DE...

[DTaina]

Quote

Now that that we have reviewed it, we feel like healing these objectives can serve well as an alternative or a complement to the commonly used defensive abilities, such as Frost's Snow Globe, Gara's Mass Vitrify, Limbo's Cataclysm. 100% heals is not what we want to do, so we are instead trying to allow the effects but adjusted as to not trivialize the game modes.

Please, don't nerf my Snow Globe!

[KRANOT]

Those Sancti Magistar Changes are atrocious. i can prettymuch trash my umbraforma'd sancti magistar if that change hits as is. 100Hp/s is a joke of a heal and an incredibly nerf.

[TheNineBreaker]

At this point might as well delete Vazarin  and every other focus school that isn't Zenurik or Naramon. I keep seeing that with these updates they're supposed to "Diversify" teams, builds, and such, but all I see is making Warframes who had something going for them nerfed. Basically making it so you have to play specific teams now, why is it every time something like this happens you have to nerf it? This isn't looking at the real problems this game and SS has. All this healing "fix" does is limit people's ability to solo endless missions and enjoy the game their way. I hope it's changed to percentage based and Gara's DR is brought back to 90% cause with those numbers, that is pitiful healing what won't help in the slightest. You're better off just not letting any of it affect defense objectives cause they'll get 1 shot either way.

[_Anise_]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

DE removed that because enemy had no chance of attacking it, making the mission too easy.

gara can put a wall around an extractor that makes it so enemies can not ever touch the target, other warframes can practically paralyze the whole room, how are those also not considered not making the mission too easy? there are plenty of warframes that exist that trivialize lots of different kinds of content and being able to constantly heal a node to me seems no stronger than being able to shroud it.

also cloak arrow is also inconsistent! ...

it works on lure's and mission drones on planes of eidolon but not on drones in the orb, why ?

it works on defending the wheel things in the orb too for no reason but won't hit similar mechanical targets in missions ? *shrug*

but maybe they could make cloak arrow work again but give the AI some kind of AOE attack so they can still hit the objective but for less ?

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

43 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

gara can put a wall around an extractor that makes it so enemies can not ever touch the target, other warframes can practically paralyze the whole room, how are those also not considered not making the mission too easy? there are plenty of warframes that exist that trivialize lots of different kinds of content and being able to constantly heal a node to me seems no stronger than being able to shroud it.

also cloak arrow is also inconsistent! ...

it works on lure's and mission drones on planes of eidolon but not on drones in the orb, why ?

it works on defending the wheel things in the orb too for no reason but won't hit similar mechanical targets in missions ? *shrug*

but maybe they could make cloak arrow work again but give the AI some kind of AOE attack so they can still hit the objective but for less ?

Enemies can still break gara wall, or attack from distance. However low the chance is the Def target can be targeted and/or damaged. While the other hand making the target effectively disappear makes it near impossible for the to either target or damage it.

Side note by removing the def target can you call it a def mission, it be the same as a wave exterimation mission instead.

[BethTheBean]

Let me get this straight ...

Jackal has 2 major bugs since release, yet DE decided they needed to nerf a mechanic that has little impact on the game? 

Please tell me this is a joke, or I'm asleep and having a weird dream right about now...

[Mattoropael]

Oh wow, a huge Vazarin nerf, and to the one ability that is actually a major QoL and you know what, diversifies defense mission frame choice (because you can just panic-dash the objective even if you're in a DPS frame).

With all the recent anti-player experience "balance passes" to Arcanes and now Vazarin, I'm almost glad I was forced to stop playing Warframe by a dead GPU.

[Xsoskeleton]

 

On 2020-04-04 at 4:05 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We made a hasty change in Hotfix 27.3.6 that removed Venari’s Heal aura from affecting Oplinks AND Defense Targets. Firstly, the terminology of calling Venari’s Defense Target healing a ‘fix’ was incorrect, so apologies there on my behalf. It’s correct to say it was a feature for Venari, considering it had its own Tip for it! The change stemmed from our desire to resolve Operation exploits as quickly as possible, and we didn't communicate this properly.

Still intrigues me that fixing venari's ability to heal defense targets being called a fix was incorrect solely due to the Healing property had its own Tips entry. This proves that, had Venari's tip about healing defense target doesn't exist, they will out right delete venari's capability of healing objectives and call it unintended feature. And they make hasty decisions instead of thinking of it critically (except they also did right away by making the limbo nerf for the event in the following hotfix but that's for another topic)

 

[SnakeBadger]

9 hours ago, NeoR0man1a said:

Ok , i will stop playng warframe  , i just cant take it anymore ,if things will come to normal i will comeback. ty DE

its a decent change, grab sodas, am honestly waiting for the rewards for kuva siphon to get better, and lich updates, i dont like those drops, i feel like the relay syndicates could have gotten involved especially when you are stuck soloign the things, looking for new mods and aughments to be added with the whispers, and stuff for my operator schools, arcanes, and focus. Warframe honestly just gets better, just come back when u wannu,

[King_Flounder]

Please leave Vazarin as it is. Vazarin represents hours and hours of eidolon hunting to get protective dash. Literally weeks of play time for the average player. Nerfing that is just being mean. like the kind of mean where you tell people you don't respect them even a little bit. The kind of mean we expect from EA. 

Some good changes in here, giving lesser used frames more utility in broader areas but go easy on the nerfs. These nerfs really make me wonder if devs play their own game. Like limbo and khora, you gave us these tools. Why are you suddenly screaming that we are using them wrong when we use our tools as intended. 

Also, Please make the dashes just waybounds. After the lockdown nerf it feels like we are pretty actively punished for using operator mode. Just give us energizing dash as a waybound and watch as all the other focus schools suddenly become more used than zenurik. A little bit of mixing and matching of focus school powers would be amazing. I know Pablo and scott will cry about balance... And Its justified. Just do one option from each school and see how it goes. If its a ton of work then stop. If its easy well do it again and give us a system of focus that rewards us. Or at least doesn't take a year to get. 

Also, you are awesome if you read this. be it community manager or fellow tenno. 

[(PSN)Kaleidos_Joker]

I too, really don't think DE plays their game any more. I mean Danielle came back from Christmas break in her first PS4 @ 4 saying she was without her PS4 the entirety of the break.

I was willing to giving DE a break because of COVID-19, but to break working systems definitely isn't going to help your dwindling player base. Give us things you promised. Instead of breaking those systems that have worked for many of us for years.

Did you delete all those old events?

On day 168 of Nightwave I'm not even running circles in my ship.  I log in max Vox and Quills.

At this point I would be understanding if DE just said hey we need ideas.

Please give us updates with something real not a grind bandaid. 

[KagaNerdy]

Like seriously, no one even asked for this and the sudden nerf was really unnecessary and that's what are frames meant to be
Limbo being the god of all defense missions? Nerfed because it was too easy especially for the event
Khora's Venari healing the Oplink? Nerfed! Venari Healing was always like that ever before Scarlet Spear 

At this point, you should have nerfed everything for trivializing the game.
This changes really changed defense gamemode forever and this before changes we're already fine from the beginning (aside from Vazarin and that was its purpose and now it has no purpose and everyone is just gonna stick to Zenurik) and ruined it.

Thanks DE

[superiouz]

Im solo player. I dont do coop as often. And vazarin dash invul. is the only reason. that i can use non meta frame and make me not bored with only use meta frame for boss ( orb mother + ss + eidolon) and endurance run. im sure im not the only solo player in this game.

You not only remove invul. U also remove percentage. Why? Im fine if dash not heal oplink. But why u nerf so much??? Like right now vazarin not heal the oplink right? So why u nerf it? 

Like vazarin is all people choose anyway. It is not meta for any mission. Do u hate people use vazarin? Should people use only meta frame? Should people only play this game with full premade squad? 

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

Bit confused why Garuda doesn't get to heal objects. I realize it sounds odd channelling blood to a box to make it healthy but no odder than any of the other heals.

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

Hey @[DE]Rebecca, Gamer-Steve here.

This isn't the intended topic specifically, but @King_Flounder's post before this reminded me of something I've been thinking about for quite some time now. In the event a future topic comes up such as a new focus update for Warframe, etc., then I'll link this post on that for relevancy and possible ideas to contribute. 

It may take more thought in the future (It's a bit late at night to remember about all of it), but in short, this is what I had in mind:

 

Maybe there is a way to add a small, third waybound passive to each of the 5 Focus schools, or rather, add waybound functionality to existing unique things from each of the schools.

 

• - The ball of fire of Madurai, Flame Blast. Hypothetically, Rising Blast could be a waybound, adding the increased damage to Void Blast school-variations in general. Though from what I've seen (I haven't had time to test this out, so feel free to expand or correct me on this), none of the other versions seem to launch a projectile in addition to the Void Blast itself, which is the kind of waybound passive I was thinking of. A small addition to any of the Non-Madurai schools.

 

• - Energizing Dash of Zenurik. Out of each of the focus schools, this type of Dash is the only one which provides energy to fuel Warframe abilities (Except for Hildryn of course). It is a huge benefit to nearly every loadout in a given mission, even when not highly ranked up with Zenurik Focus. Especially when Energy is scarce.
   
  • Theoretically speaking, the same kind of unique waybound functionality could be said for the Protective Dash of Vazarin. The healing potential would be pretty useful in a loadout as well, not unlike Energizing Dash.

 

• Considering how nearly every Focus School's abilities relating to Void Mode adds an additional energy cost, perhaps the operator could have a personal passive they could train (Stemming from an idea in a post I made in the past mentioning them making their own Tenno schools), where they can reduce the amount of energy drain consumed during their enhanced Void mode attributes from one of the existing Five Focus schools. I would only suggest up to 50% less of an Energy Drain for this personal Void Dash Passive.
   
  • As for how to train this, it could be a small node near the 3 options when you select your Operator's things in the back of the orbiter. Due to this being a personal Operator Passive, outside of the schools, it could perhaps require focus from all 5 schools to rank up, similar to contributing resources in clan research. Maybe up to 150,000 focus from each school to go from the second-highest rank --> Max rank, and scale it down for the preceding ranks.

 

• Disorienting Blast of the Naramon school could also be a useful minor waybound passive. In theory, this could be added onto the idea for a Flaming Blast passive, allowing the fireball to also confuse enemies hit by the projectile itself or the explosion, allowing you to confuse enemies from afar, but perhaps at a reduced duration or effectiveness when caused by the Flaming Blast's projectile / explosion.
   
  • Rising Blast could be a fourth waybound passive from Madurai (I'm thinking only of a third passive from each school, but this happens to be from Madurai as well), since it improves on the damage output of a void blast in general, and not specifically Flame Blast. It has it's own usefulness for Void Blasts in that way, not too unlike Energizing Dash or Protective Dash for a general void dash.

 

• Unairu Wisp of the Unairu school. Aside from Madurai's Flame Blast, this would be another unique waybound passive to make universal. And it powers up fellow Operators. In the event Flame Blast is unlocked fully as a waybound passive, I don't know whether the explosion or Projectile from Flame Blast should be able to create a wisp for them to pick up however.
   
  • Hypothetically speaking, if this and Rising Blast were both unlocked and used at the same time, it would increase the Operator's damage output by a good deal, I imagine. This would make it another small utility at the player's disposal, and a damage enhancer for those higher-leveled enemies.

So with all this in mind, these varied utilities would be a very useful way for players to spend all the focus they've gathered up over the years, and for newer Operators, something more to strive towards. In the event a Focus 3.0 update (Hypothetically speaking) completely revamps the whole system and somehow refunds the focus players have spent, maybe this can be incorporated into that somehow. Either way, I hope this is a useful bit of info for everybody at DE. I've been thinking of a way to combine all the unique actions you can take from each of the schools simultaneously.

- Although, even if all these are unlocked for a player, they could still choose a personal school to make use of all the abilities from it, of course.

 

Thanks for hearing me out on all that! Be safe out there :]

[dreadgame]

Quote

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability 60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Can't you just reinvent how it works and make it fun and engaging to use?

The way it's happening seems utterly brutal and distasteful.

[_AveMaria_]

Thks for sharing with us thoses informations, and asking us what we think about.

As a mostely solo player (bad connection), without Vazarin, you want me to only play the 3 or 4 same frames for all defensive type mission ? Realy ? OMG i'm gonna be bored so fast 😢

Please dont change Vazarin's school. You love stats? So take a look at the focus school usage before doing anything, and share it with us.

Or are you using stats only when it favored your point of view ? (catchmoon, etc.)

For the rest of it, it looks nice... if it scales with the levels of ennemies of course. We all want to be able to use those abilities (begginers and veterans, early and late game)

 

May be you should think about putting up a Test Cluster for those kind of changes and wait for players feedback ? Many hard games to balance are doing this (overwatch, Diablo3, etc.)

[SnakeBadger]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Gamer-Steve said:

-snip-

yeah any additions are welcome, i hate the focus system, its so limited, each planet has nothing for the operator to get any manuals or teachings to discover or scan, maybe from the lockers and machines if ur thinking lore, which makes scanning or defeating a certain amount of enemies or using stealth a miniature requirement or bounty for the relays in those planets to flourish, calling for those things to heal and reason to transfer or use the tennos and each school  at least u wrote a bunch of interestingstuff, especially slots and skills which playes cant even use when they are playing solo, theres nothing to earn from unairu wisp, it doesnt look good or sound good to me, yeah, maybe it looks awesome, i don;t even have any weapons or unairu lenses that i wanna use because am barfing looking at the focus schools and what their posible unlockables are, i am honestly all about that repeater gameplay and amp, and they really barelly affected by the focus or energy pickups, warframe abilities and tethers dont affect operators, so operator gameplay is SUPER DULL, nobody wants to play a whole level as their operator unless its storymode with a fancy cookie, i do. I play umbra, i put him with the acceltra and he just shoots unlimited bulletrs, he never reloads, or watever so its really epic to walk around going shew shew shew shew adisk shewsweswharcanefirerateupshgewww, so on but it feels really limited, even if i equip a fireblast and i use all my eviceral skills, theres some things missing, cant do finishers or parazon, i seen nova / mirage try sucking the energy from souls, that was interesting, i once was trapped in a redweb and made prisoner in a survival level when i was soloing my lich pre-patch, it was very difficult, theres no support for operators especially without using umbra, thats all i have to say, feels good to chargeup the firewball / fireblast just needs s few tweaks so it melts enemies or it can be used to open doors and force lockers open, each blast already opens up the operator pretty badly to damage and vulnerabilities, also transference speed is horribly bad on out, i seen some vaccumm mod but am like what is thiS#&$for, its not going to make me a betterfighter hahaha, so i skip those arcanes and mods which have barely any use, like that one arcane to negate falling damage, at least it could have a bonus to voidblast and a few other tricks, arcane revives are cool, but yeah they are expensive thingy, bounties and missions might be a great way to ad dpoints and focus to keep players replaying old content with new enemies and monsters incase they yup in case they upgrade the tennoways/ and eidolon. sory for the mixtures and gases, i want gas damage on my voidblast, the second blast should chain a explosion and trigger a random jolt, the flames corrosive, and useful for EKG like nekros but the player is low HP LOL, redlife, worst gauss ever, anyways. ttyl

Unairu Wisp of the Unairu school. Aside from Madurai's Flame Blast, this would be another unique waybound passive to make universal. And it powers up fellow Operators. In the event Flame Blast is unlocked fully as a waybound passive, I don't know whether the explosion or Projectile from Flame Blast should be able to create a wisp for them to pick up however.

[Zyga21]

For consistency; it wasn't listed anywhere on the chart but will oberon be able to give armour to the defense objectives who are in his field +renew?

This change is excellent, I love every bit of it, gives healing frames a lot more use

[Xepthrichros]

I hope you will apply this degree of re-evaluation of ALL warframe abilities, including damage abilities and CC abilities, on ALL bosses some day. 

I play warframe for warframes, not call of duty in space. Blanket ability immunity, which some bosses enjoy, has to go. Abilities can work differently on bosses, but I don't think they should be completely immune.

[_Anise_]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Enemies can still break gara wall, or attack from distance. However low the chance is the Def target can be targeted and/or damaged. While the other hand making the target effectively disappear makes it near impossible for the to either target or damage it.

Side note by removing the def target can you call it a def mission, it be the same as a wave exterimation mission instead.

if you create a problem and add a solution for the player and that makes it a fun interaction? and that is what the game is about! right?

stealth arrow could be made to work on defense targets, the interaction could come from the nullification field minions that wipe buffs taking the arrow off meaning the target has windows where it would take damage.

Ivara couldn't go /afk! would have to take out the nullification minions, reapply stealth to the defense target? maybe not the prefect solution but I am sure they couldmake something work if they wanted

 

[Urlan]

1 minute ago, _Anise_ said:

if you create a problem and add a solution for the player and that makes it a fun interaction? and that is what the game is about! right?

stealth arrow could be made to work on defense targets, the interaction could come from the nullification field minions that wipe buffs taking the arrow off meaning the target has windows where it would take damage.

Ivara couldn't go /afk! would have to take out the nullification minions, reapply stealth to the defense target? maybe not the prefect solution but I am sure they couldmake something work if they wanted

 

Some stealth abilities used to work! They were removed since we used them that way, some like Ash being able to use Smoke Shadow on Eidolon lures or other allies were removed for "removing the risk" inherent in those mission objectives, which was disappointing to say the least.

[Anduvriel]

kuva survival 2hour mark... 

Nekros: Trin heal the goddamn life support its almost done.. a lvl 200 butcher tripped over it

Trin watching 100 heal ticks: i am trying.. its not working to good 

Bombard lvl 200 two screens away shooting a 20000 damage rocket: don't bother Trin

 

Rip eidolon lures.. at least when i get all of the arcanes from scarlet spear i will never ever have to touch that again lol

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

23 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

if you create a problem and add a solution for the player and that makes it a fun interaction? and that is what the game is about! right?

stealth arrow could be made to work on defense targets, the interaction could come from the nullification field minions that wipe buffs taking the arrow off meaning the target has windows where it would take damage.

Ivara couldn't go /afk! would have to take out the nullification minions, reapply stealth to the defense target? maybe not the prefect solution but I am sure they couldmake something work if they wanted

 

How would nulls target and pathfind the objective, when the objective is invisible. Not all factions have null abilitys. Adding steath to a def target creates more problems than the "demand". Since the AI will need to be modified to take account of the possibility of steath objective.

19 hours ago, Anduvriel said:

kuva survival 2hour mark... 

Nekros: Trin heal the goddamn life support its almost done.. a lvl 200 butcher tripped over it

Trin watching 100 heal ticks: i am trying.. its not working to good 

Bombard lvl 200 two screens away shooting a 20000 damage rocket: don't bother Trin

Rip eidolon lures.. at least when i get all of the arcanes from scarlet spear i will never ever have to touch that again lol

Good example, but playing a kura survival for that long isn't intended by DE. If you do theres planty of frames that can counter dps enemies though CC'ng. Healing anything at that lv is mostly redundant.