Warframe can´t have difficulty because it lost control over its basic systems

[Colyeses]

10 hours ago, Amazerath said:

There needs to be a limiting factor to power usage that goes beyond just energy cost.

Do not blanket nerf on account of specific bad apples. Mesa's ult is not a valid reason to nerf Ember's fireball, and Limbo's cataclysm is not a valid reason to nerf Vauban's Bastille.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

8 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

The only way i can see this being fixed is if DE centers a group of weapons to perform around the same damage potential of our highest damage dealing weapons, and then solely balances new enemies around our new high teir labled weapons.

Power creep says hi. When you limit the game to not even 1/10th of the entire arsenal, you limit variety. Sure, you can go into any mission with the best stuff & do well, but is it honestly any fun? ESO & Tridolon are synonymous with restrictive metas that don't even embrace the potential that our enormous arsenal has to offer. The gap between MR fodder & god-tier equipment should be lowered, not expanded upon to the nth degree, or else you truly enter stagnation & create more problems as time goes on.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Power creep says hi

Actually, it would end power creep.

Unless DE makes stronger weapons than the highest tier, power creep would end

39 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

When you limit the game to not even 1/10th of the entire arsenal, you limit variety

Well we are talking about difficult content here so variety will be limited either way until de adds variety to weapons made fir difficult content, else the content wont be difficult. Everything will just get 1 shotted.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Sure, you can go into any mission with the best stuff & do well, but is it honestly any fun?

I dont use the best of the best weapons, but i do use weapons that are close and usually stick with them.

For 6-7 yrs

 

The rest of your comment, im unsure of what youre making it based on. DE already expands on the strongest weapons in the game. 

 

And if vareity is truely a concern, DE would need to stop making new weapons, buff the old ones (or make some optional buff for them. One that actually works), then base the games enemies around all the weapons in the game. Which is easy if you have a average of all the weapons with no weapon deviating too far from another.

Or make like 3 weapon damage tiers, and base the game's difficulty content around those tiers.

Edited May 10, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[GKP_light]

 

il y a 34 minutes, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff a dit :

When you limit the game to not even 1/10th of the entire arsenal

there is no reason to balance only 10% of the weapon.

they should make all prime/prisma/vandal/... as strong as the Ignis wraith. (and nerf the Bramma, that is the only weapon clearly above all other)

Balance a weapon is somthing very easy. you take the weapon, put the best mod on it, calculate the DPS, and modifie the damage to make have the value that we want.

As exemple, a baza prime that is very high accuracy but not the area of damage of the ignis should have the dps of the ignis wraith *1.8 . for a Soma Prime, that don't have the acuracy, it should be *2.5 .

 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

13 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Yeah, the core "numbers" of the game is indeed very messed up. The massive disparity betwen player/enemy and damage/durability is also the reason things like damage-reflection is never gonna work particularly well (unless using massively inflated numbers, but I digress).

My biggest question to all this is: Can this even be fixed?

The answer is nope. Players all over would rage fest bigger than any botched even if players were even a bit less all consumingly powerful.

DE doesnt have the guts or skill to pull that off on a 7 year old game that is showing its age as much as warframe.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

4 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Actually, it would end power creep.

Unless DE makes stronger weapons than the highest tier, power creep would end

The question is, which weapons are we focusing on to make high-tier? The arsenal is huge, but it's not without its fair share of bad weapons. You don't see players bringing Stug to a sortie, and that in itself is a problem that has existed for quite some time. We have weapons that under-perform to such a high degree, when do we round these weapons off? Where should the limits be set? Should certain weapons be nerfed for the sake of balance? There are a lot of ways to go about balancing the arsenal, but it hasn't been done effectively.

4 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Well we are talking about difficult content here so variety will be limited either way until de adds variety to weapons made fir difficult content, else the content wont be difficult. Everything will just get 1 shotted.

Variety shouldn't be limited, that's why power creep has been an issue for so long. So much goes to waste because you have gear that radically outperforms everything else.

4 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I dont use the best of the best weapons, but i do use weapons that are close and usually stick with them.

For 6-7 yrs

The rest of your comment, im unsure of what youre making it based on. DE already expands on the strongest weapons in the game. 

And if vareity is truely a concern, DE would need to stop making new weapons, buff the old ones (or make some optional buff for them. One that actually works), then base the games enemies around all the weapons in the game. Which is easy if you have a average of all the weapons with no weapon deviating too far from another.

Or make like 3 weapon damage tiers, and base the game's difficulty content around those tiers.

You can use whatever you want but it still won't stop power creep from being a concern. Content that has been released over the years has been defined by the metas that take form around said content. New endgame content is bound to have a meta that trivializes it all, ESO has it, and Eidolon hunting has it. What a meta does is inherently restrict one's freedom to explore alternative solutions & methods of play in the content we encounter. It'll be a problem here too. DE has obligations not only to release new content but to also manage older content that falls behind the standards we should expect. That includes the hundreds of weapons we have at our disposal. I will agree that a middle ground, an average, needs to be set to determine how to properly balance the weapons we have now & will have in the future. The whole goal of my post is to promote balance. Whenever weapons fall dangerously behind, they'll often be categorized as MR fodder. The term in itself is an unfortunate representation of how unbalanced the weapons are, and Rivens aren't a solution. Rivens don't even compensate for the some of the less stellar weapons whenever DE does a Riven balance check. If popularity is enough to dictate which Rivens should & shouldn't be adjusted, then something clearly isn't working out.

[MacIntoc]

15 hours ago, keikogi said:

quite a lot of games are just an extermination mission from back to back. Doom, God of War 1 to 3, devil may cry, Vanquish , Dark Souls , Boderlands and so on

There is too much difference between Warframe and almost all these games:

• content is not free
• they are designed to be played solo
• there is a story behind the mission and not only a reward
• each mission is designed to be played 2-3 times
• the player's choices are closed
• they have no living content and, instead, content is reseted every 2-3 years
• they just can't be compared

15 hours ago, keikogi said:

Even DE itself (scot speaking about the rail jack rework ) told us that if the extermination mission does not work the core gameplay loop has problems and there is not much point into adding layers of complexity over it because the core is compromised.

Does he say that extermination has been broken on the star map ?

14 hours ago, Amazerath said:

The only way to create challenge through missions with things the way they currently are is to make missions with heavy restrictions. For example, a mission where all your mods are only leveled half way. Or a mission where you can only equip four mods. Or something like Elite Onslaught where your power will literally get blocked if you use it too much.

That is possible, yes. But it's basically the same as using duct tape to piece together something that's broken. It's a temporary fix, not a solution that will allow the game to grow and improve in the long run.

If you get stuck on a mission that only involves killing as fast as possible or defending an objective, yes, you're right :)

7 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

And if vareity is truely a concern, DE would need to stop making new weapons, buff the old ones (or make some optional buff for them. One that actually works), then base the games enemies around all the weapons in the game. Which is easy if you have a average of all the weapons with no weapon deviating too far from another.

Not so easy. Why would you want to build a new weapon that has no better stats than the ones you have?
Building a weapon is a big investment, you need a blue potato and at least 4-5 formas. Most people will not invest in new weapons if they are not sure they will get a better solution than the ones they already have.

And they already rebalanced old weapons 2 years ago.

Edited May 10, 2020 by MacIntoc

[Oreades]

20 hours ago, Azamagon said:

My biggest question to all this is: Can this even be fixed?

Yes but they would need to be very very careful with how they go about it because not unlike heart surgery, one slip up and it's bye bye game. 

At least with bosses it seems like they could theoretically put a hard damage cap on what they can take and not like their current 1 shot to their first invulnerability phase but more of a no shot can do more than X damage. EG sure your Brhamma can do 1,000,000 damage but for the sake of bosses that is hard capped at 1k or something reasonable that means other weapons would still be able to compete. 

I'd recommend starting it off as a dedicated mechanic for a new mechanic heavy boss and see how it goes, if it goes well then start extending it to each of the existing bosses. Maybe along with some sort of system that gave purpose to playing the bosses over and over once you've already extracted their associated Warframe. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I fully agree. 

For years i've asked for the basic systems of the game to be overhauled. We're finally in position for it to work too. DE gave frames unique health armor and shields, which was one of the earliest steps needed. Overhauling enemy scaling was next, which has been touched upon at least. With those out of the way it's finally near the point where balancing offensive numbers across the board could be looked at. 

The hard part will actually be rebalancing all warframe skills with that in mind after those changes but since this has been the year of the overhauls I finally have some hope that DE will work on it. If they want to bring in new next gen players they'll need these kind of core gameplay updates. 

[GKP_light]

Il y a 4 heures, MacIntoc a dit :

And they already rebalanced old weapons 2 years ago.

Very bad weapon that becam only bad.

Il y a 4 heures, MacIntoc a dit :

Not so easy. Why would you want to build a new weapon that has no better stats than the ones you have?

because they are not just a good weapon among other, they need to have something unique.

make new weapon interesting only by powercreep can not work at long term.

[Amazerath]

12 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Do not blanket nerf on account of specific bad apples. Mesa's ult is not a valid reason to nerf Ember's fireball, and Limbo's cataclysm is not a valid reason to nerf Vauban's Bastille.

The first sentence in the post you quoted is: "The core of the problem is the spamming of warframe powers". I don't know how you went from that to "Warframe A and B are too strong so everything needs to be nerfed".

To clarify, Banshee (one of the least used warframes) has potential to lockdown entire groups of enemies of any level indefinitely. Mag (one of my favorite warframes) can do the same by using Pull alone. Ivara (who doesn't excel at damage or crowd control) can simply go invisible for an entire mission and bypass any fight she doesn't want to get involved in.

This is not a problem created by one or two warframes being too strong. This is a problem created by years of adding and only weeks of balancing. And balance doesn't mean just nerfing the things the majority of people are using (which is something DE loves to do). Balance is also about improving the things that have no reason to be used. For example, why do we have so many underwhelming augment mods that don't offer more build options? Why are air support charges so useless? Why haven't specters been updated in so long? Why is weapon performance so incredibly different even when they have similar requisites? These things are also part of the balance discussion. It's not just nerf Mesa, nerf Saryn, nerf Limbo and nerf whatever else the meta gravitates to.

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, keikogi said:

Im not here to explain why something is broken. I just saw a lot of post about the new hard mode and saw people discussing enemy level and mission design and thought to myself aren´t we forgetting something more basic here. So, I just decided to make s really short post highlighting some core issues of the game.

My apologies. I didn't mean to attack you. I wasn't even trying to respond to you directly. There's a general trend of argument in Warframe that our "stats" are too high and we need to be nerfed, which often takes the form of suggesting reductions to health, armour, damage, etc. I wanted to point out that the final stats are only a symptom of the more fundamental problem of how we arrive at them. Weapon damage buff stacking is responsible for a VERY large part of the game's power creep. It isn't SOLELY responsible, mind you, but it's a primary contributor. Address that, and most other issues will either click into place or mandate adjustments of their own to match the new status quo. This isn't a panacea which will solve all issues overnight, but it is an important first step to even ALLOW balance a chance to happen.

 

20 hours ago, keikogi said:

It´s kind of my point DE has to get control over its basic math behind the game because everything is falling apart due to a mess of couponing multipliers and weird enemy mechanics meant to deal with the couponing multipliers.

Right. I think we agree on the essentials here. It's just my poor word choice of "misinformation" which came across like I was picking a fight. Sorry about that.

 

18 hours ago, Zeranov said:

Still I like all those newer systems. They offer the player a lot more choice and the gameplay feels more fluid. DE gave the control of the game flow to the players. Almost like sandbox games do this. If this was by design or mistake I do not know, but this is indeed unique among all the games I played. Of cource there is not much choice when aiming for the most powerful loadout, but this is a problem common to all games with customization and Warframe is dealing with it quite nicely by creating multiple game modes and everyone has a different meta.

I don't necessarily agree here. You don't need broken mechanics to create player choice. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite - having a few obviously, significantly and objectively "better" options stifles player choice. When we're forced to pick between what we like and what the game clearly expects us to pick, that's a no-win situation. And Warframe absolutely does expect us to pick some things over others. As a direct response to people asking for "more challenge," DE have now shifted the status quo of the game into the level 80+ range where so many of their game systems simply break down. Enemies deal so much damage that you can't really keep up without heavy investment in defences or some kind of map-wide nuke. Enemies have so much EHP that offensive skills are almost pointless and "meta" guns grow increasingly more necessary. The higher enemy TTK then circles around and requires even heavier defences since we end up eating more damage in the time it takes to take down our enemies.

Don't mistake shoddy balance for player freedom. In far too many cases in Warframe, the game chooses for us. We're always free to disagree, but almost every time this leads to an objectively less pleasant experience, at least for those looking to enjoy with the game's newer content. I'll give you a simple example: Why do you think everyone deferred to the Amesha in Railjack content? Because enemy damage at the time was scaled so high that the Amesha's functional invincibility was the only thing that kept you alive. You could use one of the other Archwings, but you faced a FAR harder fight as a result.

Build diversity in Warframe does not require multiplicative damage buffs. Quite the opposite - multiplicative damage buffs mandate certain builds for your weapons, ideally builds which contain a lot of base damage and a lot of elemental damage and a lot of critical damage. As it stands, 6 of my 8 slots on every weapon use the same few mods, with only damage types changing around here and there. That's build stagnation via the presence of a "meta" so significantly more powerful than baseline performance that there's no real choice in the matter. Doubly so when DE have consistently rebalanced their game to better fit the meta for years - pretty much until Warframe Revised just a few months ago.

Warframe as it stands right now boils down to effectively paint-by-numbers, which is a shame for a game with this kind of wealth of items and mods. The majority of our inventories sits unused and pointless, largely because combat itself has become reductive. It has become a skill check. Do you have "the meta?" If so, you win. Here's your prize, you can go home. If not, don't even bother. You'll lose and have a miserable time. That's not to say that you can't play "off-meta" in some places. However, the more DE push us into level 100 fights in standard content, the less useful those "off-meta" picks become.

In short, I'm of the opinion that we need proper balance if the majority of our options are to be worth a second look.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

This is nothing new.  People have been talking about how broken the damage system is in WF for years. One thing people fail to bring up in context with the huge damage numbers, is that the equally broken loot system is based on killing massive quantities of enemies - again and again.  The # of enemies spawned is a function of the expectation they will be slaughtered.  The life support on survivals, the drop rates of reactants, resources, etc - if you monkey with the math in a vacuum, I assure you it will suck even more.

Yes - you can make it harder to kill enemies, bosses, whatever. and maybe some people think they want that. Right up until they have to turn a 2 hour grindfest into a 20 hour grind fest because you know it wouldn't all be changed at once. basically be careful what you ask for - you might just get it.

players looking for difficulty in WF are playing the wrong game.  Its a casual looter shooter.

[(PSN)One_Angry_Goose]

On 2020-05-09 at 11:08 AM, keikogi said:

Sound like I´m doomsayer but warframe definitively lost control over the basic numbers of the game, because of that the DEVs can´t design fight at all and everything breaks down.

 

 

Damage System

The players can achieve hilarious levels of damage , that the game cant naturally handle , even the HUD was not prepared for it, here it is ( the HUD was charged but causing a stack overflow was definitely not intended by the DEVs)

https://i.imgur.com/74wuarQ.mp4

Player Damage

This creates a lot of problems when designing enemies because enemies are designed around the time the player should ideally took to kill them. Since player damage is “infinity” we been getting wave after wave of invulnerable enemies or enemies with multiple health pools (4+ destructible weak spots and so on). The situation is so desperate for the DEVs that railjack grineer used to have “scaling damage protection” ( tl:dr the enemy thought that your shot did too much damage and the enemy got an appropriate amount of DR against that shot ).

Player durability 

Player durability is somewhere in between 500 hp to 1 million , of course the game cant decide how much damage a cheap shot should deal because if a grakata bullet does 500 damage it does not even tickle the 1 million hp guy and 1 shot the 500 hp guy. Shield gate does fix that but it’s kind of invalidate damage as whole, if your shield always blocks all the damage there is no diference between 500 damage and 1000000.

 

 

Resource economy (health , energy and ammo )

Trinity pretty much broke the health and energy economy of the game ever since the ev build was thing. The ammo economy at its very core, since a opticor shot does 1000 damage and cost 1 ammo and grakata shot does 23 damage and cost 1 ammo. So the game can´t even try to fight a war of attrition with the player because his resources are effectively unlimited (side not ammo restores break any hope of the resource economy ever function because the player can start the with 80 000 energy , 240 000 health and 88 000 rifle rounds worth of restores that are readily available at the start of the mission.

I agree. But the problem is: Reasonable limits would invalidate much of the effort and time players have put into grinding and crafting their builds; even though they’re necessary.

As for the “difficulty”: You HAVE to be insanely powerful to do high level content, but that same power trivializes everything else. And, even then, DE adds something with artificial difficulty (invincibility frames) that makes bosses tedious, but not hard.

But nobody wants to give up any of that power because, yknow, we worked hard (or long) for it. To take that away would be to spit in our face. But, at the same time, the game can’t keep breaking itself and DE can’t keep slapping bandaids and a new polish of paint on it. 

There’s no good fix for Warframe. I love the game but... it’s been burning down for awhile now. I really hope DE can pull out some bunch of miracles, even though that’s unlikely. All we can really do is come to terms with this and hope their next game is more thought out from the start. DE’s a good studio, I don’t know how they let this all slip

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

13 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Do not blanket nerf on account of specific bad apples. Mesa's ult is not a valid reason to nerf Ember's fireball, and Limbo's cataclysm is not a valid reason to nerf Vauban's Bastille.

Bad design is the tool of the bad apple. 

Appropriately designed abilities don't need to be spammed or aren't an issue. Obscene power is fine if it's designed with mechanics like Harrow's Covenant. A literal nuke that instant kills all LoS enemies in affinity range is fine, if it were to be followed with something like a 300 second shield regeneration buff and can't be cast again until it wears off. 

It's never been an issue of needing frames to be weak, only that the power be in check. 

[Amazerath]

18 hours ago, Zeranov said:

[...]

Hmm... I guess DEs knows this too and after 7 years they are now in a situation were the broken wackyness of the game's mechanics is a defining trait which makes their product kinda unique among all looter shooters. There is a strange joy in fighting impossible odds which are created in some endgame missions on the one side and overtuning your own arsenal in ways unthinkable in other games on the other so you can overkill the strongest enemies to the Void and back times -2 147 483 646.

[...]

That was a nice post. I quoted this part because it's the one I consider the most important.

The identity of a game is very important to its community. I understand that and I know DE does as well. And back when when DE decided to kill chopptering and introduce Parkour 2.0, people had the same concerns. Everyone thought it was going to change the identity of the game, that it wasn't going to be Warframe anymore and so on. But turns out that didn't happen. People complained but then eventually learned how to take advantage of the new system, adapted, and moved on.

What I'm trying to say is that while I think it's important to respect the identity, it is also important stop that identity from completely taking over everything and shutting down potential. Warframe has always been a game fed by potential. Those of us who joined in the "early days" have seen how much the game has grown because of this. But some of that growth was only possible because of tradeoffs. Chopptering had to be toned down for Parkour 2.0 to be a thing. And as long as the end result provides us with room for improvement then I think the community will adapt and the game will continue to grow.

As long as you're not specifically aiming to stop the things that are fun, Warframe will continue to be broken and wacky in a good way. It's not about reaching 100% balance where everything feel bland and your choices don't even matter anymore. It's about getting to a point where you have to make choices instead having everything at your disposal. Is that easy to do? Nope! It's a long and difficult process. But I think it's necessary.

[GKP_light]

il y a une heure, Amazerath a dit :

To clarify, Banshee (one of the least used warframes) has potential to lockdown entire groups of enemies of any level indefinitely. Mag (one of my favorite warframes) can do the same by using Pull alone. Ivara (who doesn't excel at damage or crowd control) can simply go invisible for an entire mission and bypass any fight she doesn't want to get involved in.

And it is not a problem. or if it is a problem for someone, this someone should change of game.

The warframes are strong, and should be strong.

Yes, anything hard can be overcome with those powerful warframe. 

But it is what i want, and it is why i want a hard mode : actually, we don't need anything to win easily any mission. We can run with an ignis and without a brain, kill everything, and finish the mission. In a hard mode, we would need to use the warframe, create strong team, ...

[VoidArkhangel]

Think about this:

The lore says that the warframes were the masterpiece of the orokin warmachines, we are designed to fight for the most advanced race that ever existed in maybe the entire galaxy, so even if we slept centuries if not milleniums, the other factions don't stand a chance against us and maybe it will take another millenium to be hand to hand with the other factions (excepting the sentients).

So as op said, devs have difficulties to create a new enemy cuz how a game where you play as The Legion of the Damned (Warhammer) can be difficult? nerfing the warframes goes against the canon, creating tanks of saturn 6 makes the game tedious so the only difficult we will ever have is either finding our creators (wich apparently only one survived) or puzzles. But that is if the enemy neither take a massive technological jump nor get the blessing of some comsical entity but, personally, I don't think that will happen.

Edited May 10, 2020 by VoidArkhangel

[Amazerath]

39 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

And it is not a problem. or if it is a problem for someone, this someone should change of game.

The warframes are strong, and should be strong.

Yes, anything hard can be overcome with those powerful warframe. 

But it is what i want, and it is why i want a hard mode : actually, we don't need anything to win easily any mission. We can run with an ignis and without a brain, kill everything, and finish the mission. In a hard mode, we would need to use the warframe, create strong team, ...

It is not a problem in the sense that it should be abolished. It is a problem in the sense that it needs restrictions. Generally speaking, power (and feeling powerful) is not a problem. But complete absence of restrictions is.

What DE is going to give us next week is not a hard mode. All they're going to do (according to the devstream) is to give us the ability to play standard missions against enemies that are 50 or 100 levels above the default. Now, do you know what a level 50 enemy and a level 5000 enemy have in common? They both get destroyed by crowd control. So that's what you're gonna see, over and over and over until everyone is completely sick of it or until someone finds a way to instantly kill groups of level 5000 enemies. And then you'll be seeing that over and over and over instead.

I'm looking forward to hard mode too, but for a completely different reason. I think it's going to expose the flawed core of the game for everyone to see. And then maybe I won't need to put this much effort into explaining why change is necessary anymore.

[keikogi]

8 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

There is too much difference between Warframe and almost all these games:

• content is not free
• they are designed to be played solo
• there is a story behind the mission and not only a reward
• each mission is designed to be played 2-3 times
• the player's choices are closed
• they have no living content and, instead, content is reseted every 2-3 years
• they just can't be compared

Borderlands is compares quite well. You do run the same mission over and over again. The only point that does not apply for both warframe and boderlands is the free DLC. 

8 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Does he say that extermination has been broken on the star map ?

are you missing my point. Warframe damage and resource economy are fundamentally broken. Does not matter how many bells and wissels you add to the mission. The core combat loop is fundamentally flawed. Raid had a complez mission desing but their audience was so minuscule that they were not worth the development cost of keep them running.

 

[keikogi]

8 hours ago, Oreades said:

Yes but they would need to be very very careful with how they go about it because not unlike heart surgery, one slip up and it's bye bye game. 

At least with bosses it seems like they could theoretically put a hard damage cap on what they can take and not like their current 1 shot to their first invulnerability phase but more of a no shot can do more than X damage. EG sure your Brhamma can do 1,000,000 damage but for the sake of bosses that is hard capped at 1k or something reasonable that means other weapons would still be able to compete. 

I'd recommend starting it off as a dedicated mechanic for a new mechanic heavy boss and see how it goes, if it goes well then start extending it to each of the existing bosses. Maybe along with some sort of system that gave purpose to playing the bosses over and over once you've already extracted their associated Warframe. 

Yep open heart surgery and it has no guarantee it will fix the problems.

As far as damage caps and other weird damage gatting mechanism they are rampant right now because the game can't cope with player dps. Multiple destructible weak spots , damage invunerability , multiple health gates , "scaling dps protection " ( both the condrox and rail jack grineer ( originally ) literally would ressit more the damage if there were buffs or debuffs involced ). Shield gate on the player side. But the problem with these mechanics is Does damage even matter if every thing has a health gate. In this kind of system it feels like you are trying to guess the amount of damage the devs judged appropriate not the amount of damage you can do and if you defy the gods the game literally says NO even if the buff combination is working properly and should increase you dps 4 times I by decree say that you can only go as far as 2 times dps increase. Just feels like you are playing a game with that annoying kid that changes the rule mid ae because he is loosing.

 

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I fully agree. 

For years i've asked for the basic systems of the game to be overhauled. We're finally in position for it to work too. DE gave frames unique health armor and shields, which was one of the earliest steps needed. Overhauling enemy scaling was next, which has been touched upon at least. With those out of the way it's finally near the point where balancing offensive numbers across the board could be looked at. 

I really thing just having major damage overhaul and balance pass across the board would be better as a big update. The best received recent update were just tweaks to the damage and some balance passes. Since balancing require more theory crafting , math and play testing than coddling and development , I thing we are on the ideal time for an upadete like that.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

The hard part will actually be rebalancing all warframe skills with that in mind after those changes but since this has been the year of the overhauls I finally have some hope that DE will work on it. If they want to bring in new next gen players they'll need these kind of core gameplay updates. 

Warframe skills have a fundamental problem that is they have less slots than guns for damage , with means you can multiply the damage of skill by 4 while you can multiply the dps of gun by 100. So they are naturally unbalanced. I had an idea for a system to fix this but never quite finished it because to make ot presentable ot would take a lot of time. 

The basic gist of it is just give a " player level " call it Void Link ( uses Endo to upgrade ). The game would load the bulk of damage and defense scaling in this void link so weapon mod would be more about giving fancy extra effects to your gun or improving handling than the current damage race. For warframes notjing would chance just the level scaling skills would loose their scaling with enemy lol and the defensive skills would be tuned down because the player has more access to HP and shields.

 

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, Amazerath said:

For example, why do we have so many underwhelming augment mods that don't offer more build options? Why are air support charges so useless? Why haven't specters been updated in so long? Why is weapon performance so incredibly different even when they have similar requisites? These things are also part of the balance discussion. It's not just nerf Mesa, nerf Saryn, nerf Limbo and nerf whatever else the meta gravitates to.

Useless skills and pointless system plage warframe. The only air support charge thats usefull is the standard one because it can stop timers on vaults the rest are really weak effecrs with massive cooldows. S

 

[keikogi]

3 hours ago, (PS4)One_Angry_Goose said:

There’s no good fix for Warframe. I love the game but... it’s been burning down for awhile now. I really hope DE can pull out some bunch of miracles, even though that’s unlikely. All we can really do is come to terms with this and hope their next game is more thought out from the start. DE’s a good studio, I don’t know how they let this all slip

Warframe suffered from not having the time to look back nor have the time to look 1 uear forward. A lot of critical desing decisions were made without looking of they were going to cause a problem in the future or if they are incompatible with the past.

I can recall to decisions efficiency used to use the right math for efficiency is something is 100% more effiecenty than the old version it means that the new system uses 50% less resources , people complained about streamline being worthless and instead of buffing thr mod DE chose to change the math so efficiency was a % cost reduction , with is a terrible desing decision because % reduction cause exponecial gains. No wonder the game energy system started to break as soon as fleeting expertise was released.

Another bad decision was damage 2.0 as way to combat lack of build decision. DE created all the combined elements on a vain attempt of creating diversity and at the end of the day they just created a more convoluted system with the same problems of the old one a few new problems to boot.

 

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

It's never been an issue of needing frames to be weak, only that the power be in check. 

I do a lot of fan desing and people often miss what makes a skill good. It is not the skill doing a lot things that makes ot good is the skill having no trade back or being too reliable. For example mesa peace makers are not amazing because of dps , they are amazing because of the aim bot.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by keikogi