The Bramma Sickness

[Cenec]

Another Bramma thread? Sorry! I want to premise this post by saying I want the Bramma to still be a strong weapon that people can 'STRIVE' for. But there are some clear issues, and I have a feeling Warframe developers are noticing the Bramma popularity and gearing up to do something about it.

 

1. I won't talk about the Bramma being 'overpowered' or 'unbalanced', but I must admit the Bramma overshadows almost all explosive weapons. I like doing tons of damage but I don't want to be pigeonholed into using a weapon. The weapon is so good that is too enticing not to use for any player. Even if you do not like bows or explosives, it is hard to ignore how effective it is, making most other weapons obsolete. Im not talking about style or personal preferences here.

2. It is not that difficult to obtain for how good it is. I feel lucky though in that I have had quick Lich's, and some others may be struggling .The Shedu for example is more difficult to farm for and takes a lot longer, but feels far weaker in comparison. Sure, the Shedu can fire way more rounds much faster and sustain it, plus it gets the AoE on reload. However, the initial burst damage of the Bramma does so much, that Comparing the Shedu to the Bramma in the initial 3 seconds of combat is not even fair. Similar thing to the Kuva Ogris, which is still fantastic to use...

3. The inflation in Bramma riven prices is gross. People roll a decent Bramma riven and they think 3000 platinum and up is a fair price. I get it, the weapon is a beast, so the riven must be expensive, but come on. Yea, economics, supply, demand, etc. Some folks are

4. Yea, i'll admit my PC is terrible, but the Bramma is one of the few weapons that tanks my frame rate. My kuva ogris with nightwatch napalm and multishot lags it too, but very few events lag frame rate. Thank you DE for making a pretty smooth game for how detailed and beautiful the models can be!

5. I don't want people who love the Bramma to suffer. I still want it to be a strong and popular weapon, but something needs to change! Perhaps bring its base damage closer to other great explosive' weapons?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

DE will nerf it soon.

 

But yea, base dps of bramma rn is more than 3000, no other weapon in the game have that power creep.

 

[Loza03]

I feel like, instead of going after the damage, you could go after the ammo? There exists an 'ammo scavenger' mechanic that changes the amount of ammo you get per drop, and right now getting a single sniper ammo pick up will recover 2/3s of your ammo supply which is several dozen kills. So... what if it was, like, 1/15th of your ammo supply?

That'd surely reduce the spam ability of the weapon. Even with ammo mutation, if the base rate is 1, then conversion is still going to be one. Also, give it a charge time closer to that of the Lenz, it's bizarre that it basically shares the fire rate of the Rakta Cernos, which up to now was defined by how fast it fires.

[Aisu9]

instead of nerfing the bramma.... maybe they should buff other explosive weapon... i mean bramma overshadow almost every others launchers... please give them some love DE

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

just lower the base dps, tru base dmg. Bring the base dps to something between 1500-2000. Rn its just wrong, all that dps with high crit and aoe. Brama viral + hunter munitinos rn is nuts.

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

1 minute ago, Aisu9 said:

instead of nerfing the bramma.... maybe they should buff other explosive weapon... i mean bramma overshadow almost every others launchers... please give them some love DE

its DE we talking about, they wont doing that.

 

[Aisu9]

à l’instant, ShiruBiru a dit :

its DE we talking about, they wont doing that.

and THATS the problem, they shouldn't think always like this and 1 time every 4 years buff something, i'm asking myself when they'll start to understand nerfing everything is not a solution

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, Aisu9 said:

instead of nerfing the bramma.... maybe they should buff other explosive weapon... i mean bramma overshadow almost every others launchers... please give them some love DE

'Buff everything else' is a dangerous philosophy. People think that DE are too hasty with nerfs, but, like... game's been power creeped to the point of numerous methods of completely shutting down whole game modes. Resulting from the 'buff everything else' philosophy. CC too dominant? Buff nukes, both directly and by giving them some new content dedicated explicitly to them.

Hell, remember shrine of the Eidolon? Remember how that buffed, like, 90% of the weapons it touched and it barely changed anything about the meta?

[Aisu9]

il y a 2 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

'Buff everything else' is a dangerous philosophy.

Don't put words in my mouth, we're talking about launcher, a godamn rocket/grenade/explosive charge something that go boom and make things fly, and some of them don't deal a lot of damage, launcher's damage need balance, not one to be nerf and all of them been leave because they don't deal any damage to be worth the self stager (and bramma have a big self stagger, like the staticore)

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Aisu9 said:

Don't put words in my mouth, we're talking about launcher, a godamn rocket/grenade/explosive charge something that go boom and make things fly, and some of them don't deal a lot of damage, launcher's damage need balance, not one to be nerf and all of them been leave because they don't deal any damage to be worth the self stager (and bramma have a big self stagger, like the staticore)

I'm not denying some are underpowered. But some are also just fine where they are, and bringing them all to Bramma's level or comparable would be absurd.

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

3 minutes ago, Aisu9 said:

Don't put words in my mouth, we're talking about launcher, a godamn rocket/grenade/explosive charge something that go boom and make things fly, and some of them don't deal a lot of damage, launcher's damage need balance, not one to be nerf and all of them been leave because they don't deal any damage to be worth the self stager (and bramma have a big self stagger, like the staticore)

For me all AoE stuff are ok. Maybe lenz, but it will get a vandal at some point, sooo. wdym, only bramma is wrong there

[GPrime96]

34 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Hell, remember shrine of the Eidolon? Remember how that buffed, like, 90% of the weapons it touched and it barely changed anything about the meta?

I remembered that time where there was so many Buffs but for Eidolon Hunting, it was "Sniper, Opticor, Sniper, Opticor, Sniper".

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'm not denying some are underpowered. But some are also just fine where they are, and bringing them all to Bramma's level or comparable would be absurd.

It would certainly leave most conventional ranged weaponry in an awkward spot.

 

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, Cenec said:

5. I don't want people who love the Bramma to suffer. I still want it to be a strong and popular weapon, but something needs to change! Perhaps bring its base damage closer to other great explosive' weapons?

The Explosive Weapon that close to Bramma or atleast this would be Kuva Tonkor.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Aisu9 said:

we're talking about launcher, a godamn rocket/grenade/explosive charge something that go boom and make things fly

Okay, so we buff all Launchers to the Bramma's standard.

And where does that leave every other weapon type in the game?

[(NSW)Matt-S]

The problem with "buff things to be like Bramma" is that all non-AoE weapons will essentially be deleted. The issue isn't that AoE weapons can't kill (although there are definitely some on the weaker side), but that Bramma will AoE heavy units to death quickly and is also a suitable bossing weapon, actually performing better than a lot of single target weapons. For example, why does Bramma kill bosses faster than my 5 forma Pyrana Prime which fires 28 shots at once? Makes no sense considering one is an AoE weapon and one is a shotgun.

It does too much in one weapon with practically no downsides.

An AoE weapon should not be able to destroy high level Bombards, for example. Heavy units exist to counter these sorts of weapons. Plus, we take an arsenal for a reason, not just one weapon.

Edited May 14, 2020 by (NSW)Matt-S
Typo

[Cenec]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

The problem with "buff things to be like Bramma" is that all non-AoE weapons will essentially be deleted. The issue isn't that AoE weapons can't kill (although there are definitely some on the weaker side), but that Bramma will AoE heavy units to death quickly and is also a suitable bossing weapon, actually performing better than a lot of single target weapons. For example, why does Bramma kill bosses faster than my 5 forma Pyrana Prime which fires 28 shots at once? Makes no sense considering one is an AoE weapon and one is a shotgun.

It does too much in one weapon with practically no downsides.

An AoE weapon should not be able to destroy high level Bombards, for example. Heavy units exist to counter these sorts of weapons. Plus, we take an arsenal for a reason, not just one weapon.

This. I agree, its not just explosive weapons. AoE is designed to be able to take care of a large group of weaker enemies and not be strong single target. Bramma seems to do both well with its high base damage and crit-leaning builds.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Cenec
typo

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Cenec said:

This. I agree, its not just explosive weapons. AoE is designed to be able to take care of a large group of weaker enemies and not be strong single target. Bramma seems to do both well with its high base damage and crit-leaning builds.

I mean, there's quite a few other AoE weapons like this. I could mention the Ignis, which could take out sixteen level 120 Bombards on a six-mod build before the armour changes, but I think it'd be more apt to point out the hypothetically-infinite damage AoE power that is Maim.

I'm pretty sure there's no tanky single-target pick in the world that can do much against infinite.

[kwlingo]

It's funny how the Catchmoon wasn't even as Crazy AOE 10meter explosive as the Bramma and got a huge fall off range and damage after 50% of community used it. I wonder if the % of community is higher than the Catchmoon? Will the nerf be greater than Catchmoon? Also I don't under stand why players want the other AOE to have higher scaling damage like the Bramma? It's defeating the purpose of the trying any longer aka Railjack.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

One could fix the Bramma pretty easily, by essentially side-grading it.

Critical Chance: 35% -> 40%

Critical Damage: 2.1x -> 2.5x

Status Chance: 21% -> 30%

Radial Attack: 839 Blast -> 420 Blast

Attack Radius: 8.3m -> 8m

Radial Falloff: 90% -> 80%

Cluster Bombs: 6*187 Blast -> 6*100 Blast

Ammo Capacity: 15 -> 10

(all stats not listed remain the same)

By halving the base damage, but improving Crit and Status, it becomes more focused on status effects (including HM) instead of killing merely through raw damage. It also means it kills heavy units over time instead of instantly. By not nerfing the clusters as hard as the main attack, and by making the radial attack deal almost the same damage at its maximum range as it did before, it retains its ability to delete fodder, while taking more care (and typically a second shot) to remove heavy units. The slight reduction to radius is mostly just to clean up DE's weird math from when they changed AoE size, and make Firestorm a little easier to calculate. A reduction to Max Ammo forces players to go pick up ammo more often and not just sit in a corner hitting everything from far away.

Since every hit will crit with just Point Strike, Hunter Munitions will have a chance to proc with every hit. With 30% status chance, along with a 30% slash status chance from HM, you can semi-reliably proc viral and slash on heavy units to ensure they die with only one shot, but not as instantly as pre-change.

Overall, it has slightly lower sustained DPS, but the same amount of fodder clear, while still taking out heavy units, but with a more measured approach.

[GPrime96]

6 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

One could fix the Bramma pretty easily, by essentially side-grading it.

Critical Chance: 35% -> 40%

Critical Damage: 2.1x -> 2.5x

Status Chance: 21% -> 30%

Radial Attack: 839 Blast -> 420 Blast

Attack Radius: 8.3m -> 8m

Radial Falloff: 90% -> 80%

Cluster Bombs: 6*187 Blast -> 6*100 Blast

Ammo Capacity: 15 -> 10

(all stats not listed remain the same)

By halving the base damage, but improving Crit and Status, it becomes more focused on status effects (including HM) instead of killing merely through raw damage. It also means it kills heavy units over time instead of instantly. By not nerfing the clusters as hard as the main attack, and by making the radial attack deal almost the same damage at its maximum range as it did before, it retains its ability to delete fodder, while taking more care (and typically a second shot) to remove heavy units. The slight reduction to radius is mostly just to clean up DE's weird math from when they changed AoE size, and make Firestorm a little easier to calculate. A reduction to Max Ammo forces players to go pick up ammo more often and not just sit in a corner hitting everything from far away.

Since every hit will crit with just Point Strike, Hunter Munitions will have a chance to proc with every hit. With 30% status chance, along with a 30% slash status chance from HM, you can semi-reliably proc viral and slash on heavy units to ensure they die with only one shot, but not as instantly as pre-change.

Overall, it has slightly lower sustained DPS, but the same amount of fodder clear, while still taking out heavy units, but with a more measured approach.

This way of balancing it would be understandable. 

[-AncientWarrior-]

4 hours ago, Aisu9 said:

and THATS the problem, they shouldn't think always like this and 1 time every 4 years buff something, i'm asking myself when they'll start to understand nerfing everything is not a solution

yes but this is how DE make more money .. put said great weapon out .. rivens go through the roof in prices.. don't touch said weapon for several months until riven price start to fall.. then nerf said rivens / weapon .. then release next weapon .. been like this for years.. seems its DE's policy to do this .. as players you just get used to it and you know that all weapons/rivens that are fun or good WILL get nerfed..

[Mados.sys]

This is a weird problem that DE is slowly but surely making it take form and it's increasing the powercreep to unbelievable levels, I have the thought that DE feels the need that they should always release a stronger weapon than the one it came before, that because the weapons are always received as "trash" or "meta"..

Remember when Lenz came and it was one of the most overpowered bows? suddenly the Bramma arrived and out of nowhere the Lenz became absolute trash, Bramma became it's direct upgrade, Kuva Brakk too became one of the strongest shotguns in game, Kuva Nukor can brush entire top tier level enemies in a few seconds hitting up to 5 at a time, and same happened with Chakkurr, a "sniper" that could easily overshadow any other sniper rifle INCLUDING the Rubico Prime.

They are raising the numbers further and further and that's not good at all, because if it keeps going like this, on a few months we'll have a bunch of weapons capable of doing one shots to level 500 enemies (hell, there ARE already weapons like that and one of them is the Bramma), making everything so simple that the devs will implement more artificial difficulty, raising the numbers of the enemies and making past weapons absolute trash for the new content, and they'll be forced to re balance all the weapons yet again when they notice that they made the new ones extremely overpowered and almost mandatory.

It is no secret that the game is pretty damn unbalanced, at least they are trying to fix that but damn, these sort of things are kind of breaking that balance.

[Cenec]

Thinking more about this today. We obviously can't go back in time, but I feel that it was a mistake to release the Bramma as a Kuva weapon. Maybe it should not need a nerf/change, and I'm still surprised no one else has mentioned the fact of how easy it is to get in ratio to its strength. If they had released the Bramma in a different light and had made it quite difficult to achieve, this all might be a different story.

 

I like this change if it were to happen.  Maybe a bit extreme on the damage drop. Good idea though.

4 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

One could fix the Bramma pretty easily, by essentially side-grading it.

Critical Chance: 35% -> 40%

Critical Damage: 2.1x -> 2.5x

Status Chance: 21% -> 30%

Radial Attack: 839 Blast -> 420 Blast

Attack Radius: 8.3m -> 8m

Radial Falloff: 90% -> 80%

Cluster Bombs: 6*187 Blast -> 6*100 Blast

Ammo Capacity: 15 -> 10

(all stats not listed remain the same)

By halving the base damage, but improving Crit and Status, it becomes more focused on status effects (including HM) instead of killing merely through raw damage. It also means it kills heavy units over time instead of instantly. By not nerfing the clusters as hard as the main attack, and by making the radial attack deal almost the same damage at its maximum range as it did before, it retains its ability to delete fodder, while taking more care (and typically a second shot) to remove heavy units. The slight reduction to radius is mostly just to clean up DE's weird math from when they changed AoE size, and make Firestorm a little easier to calculate. A reduction to Max Ammo forces players to go pick up ammo more often and not just sit in a corner hitting everything from far away.

Since every hit will crit with just Point Strike, Hunter Munitions will have a chance to proc with every hit. With 30% status chance, along with a 30% slash status chance from HM, you can semi-reliably proc viral and slash on heavy units to ensure they die with only one shot, but not as instantly as pre-change.

Overall, it has slightly lower sustained DPS, but the same amount of fodder clear, while still taking out heavy units, but with a more measured approach.

 

 

 

[z3us32610]

Yeah this thing needs a change. Not into the ground, but something to put it more inline with the other really good primaries. It needs some kind of downside for all that it does.