What if Companions simply could not die/become downed? (Companion Immortality)

[DrivaMain]

7 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Companion AI and Sentinel targeting should be looked at and addressed. Blatantly making them invulnerable is a cheap band aid and the wrong way about solving this.

You can’t fix the AI if the majority of players can’t even operate it. The most responsive AI to date requires extremely high end hardware, which is something a lot of players do not have. If DE just allowed the AI to do more actions per second it will put a lot of stress on player hardware which can cause performance problems.

Making them invincible is sadly, one of the options or as other have stated Djinn Reawakened Mod to be universal.

[Talinthis]

well it would definitely make me use something else other than djinn reawaken for very long arbitrations so it would be something! cant count the number of times my cat dies less than one rotation in. sentinel usually lasts 20-30 mins or so at least.

[BahamutKaiser]

Definitely not, it sucks when they die, and some post revival items in the gear wheel would be great, but making pets invulnerable means they can be exploited in a variety of ways. Sentinels can't resurrect warframes if they're invulnerable, companions can't have damage if they're invulnerable.

I know most ppl agree that sentinels do irrelevant damage, but my Deth Cube with Riven Sweeper contributes plenty of damage and status procs. Condition Overload builds love it.

An item to revive companions after death would be more in line with the cost and vulnerability of companions, it could be costly or mission rationed. It does suck to lose your Kavat because you didn't realize it was bleeding, and the new teleporting downed companion thing is pretty buggy too. At least with an occasional revive item it wouldn't be as difficult to maintain. 

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Definitely not, it sucks when they die, and some post revival items in the gear wheel would be great, but making pets invulnerable means they can be exploited in a variety of ways. Sentinels can't resurrect warframes if they're invulnerable, companions can have damage if they're invulnerable

You say that is if its some how advantageous. 

Now if you are genuinely worried about Sacrifice not working due to Invulnerabilty then dont be.... that mod was never good to begin with since enemies would kill your sentinal while that long ass revive animation is happening... you would be better off with a Vasca Kavat since that works like Vazarin's Mending Soul Passive. 

As for Pets.... yeah Venari is The only one who actually does decent damage and thats expected to be the case because i would be extremely pisses off if i grinded for khora (who has a rubbish drop chance BTW),  then spent 10 forma on her and Venari and then 50 000 endo for Bite and Maul only to deal Ass For Damage.... because that where every pet that isnt Venari is in terms of Damage Output.... you know... whenever they arent getting stuck or bugged...

 

You are drastically overestimating the effect invulnerable companions is going to have on Companions.... they are not going to play the game for you... hell above Level 100 they will be strictly glorified mod slots for vacuum and radar  (throw on set mods too)....

And if the argument here is that they would be too powerful for low level content.... then theres the counter to your argument right there.... Its low level content.... spending 50 000 endo gives you the right to trivialize low level content. Thats the way it should be.... if DE doesnt want that to be case then they should make Bite and Maul guaranteed mods you would have after making a pet and lower their Endo requirements to Max Out. Then its fine if they are useless in low level content.

30 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

I know most ppl agree that sentinels do irrelevant damage, but my Deth Cube with Riven Sweeper contributes plenty of damage and status procs. Condition Overload builds love it.

So even with a Riven your Sentinal is still just a Status Applier for Your Condition Overload Melee ?  

Doesnt sound like Plenty Of Damage to me and if you really like applying Statuses then try Helstrum... its a sentinal weapon that can in the recent update.... a burst fire rocket launcher with 30% Base Status Chance and a 3 Meter radious on its AoE.... i have mine modded for Radiation and Status Duration and this makes up for any Gap's in my Warframe's CC....

36 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

An item to revive companions after death would be more in line with the cost and vulnerability of companions, it could be costly or mission rationed. It does suck to lose your Kavat because you didn't realize it was bleeding, and the new teleporting downed companion thing is pretty buggy too. At least with an occasional revive item it wouldn't be as difficult to maintain. 

Why does baby sitting brain dead AI have to be costly ? Have you never done Sortie defense ? Imagine you had to pay forma to ressurect that jerk everytime he decided to wonder off on his own.

No.... the cost should be cheap and i should be allowed to carry 200 of them per mission just like we already do with Specters (yet another Brain Dead Companion AI).....

 

[BahamutKaiser]

Um, I said it does plenty of damage "and".

Don't waste your time debating if your going to ignore what is stated. Very little of the games content is over lvl 50.

And Vaska Kavat doesn't self recover, so if it was invulnerable it would be impossible to die in mission. 

Feel free to construct another field of straw men though, it effectively supports your chauvinism. 

[Zahnny]

That wasn't a strawman.

What is a strawman is me saying this.

4 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Um, I said it does plenty of damage "and".

Don't waste your time debating if your going to ignore what is stated. Very little of the games content is over lvl 50.

And Vaska Kavat doesn't self recover, so if it was invulnerable it would be impossible to die in mission. 

Feel free to construct another field of straw men though, it effectively supports your chauvinism. 

TL;DR, "If it doesn't affect me it doesn't need changing."

[BahamutKaiser]

2 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

That wasn't a strawman.

What is a strawman is me saying this.

TL;DR, "If it doesn't affect me it doesn't need changing."

A strawman is arguing against a point that wasn't made, and he falsely argued that if they don't do any damage, I exactly said the opposite, it does work, it does damage.

Dragging out the niche case doesn't prove that it's useless either.

Please investigate the definition of Strawman, chauvinism, and communal reinforcement while your at it. 

[BahamutKaiser]

3 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Look mate. You're guilty of the same thing you're accusing him of and so am I.

Bringing up psuedo-intellectual terms helps no one. Rather than attacking his post because it doesn't conform to how you like to articulate things how about respond to his points? Instead of this inbetween the lines thing you're doing?

If you spend your whole life arguing over the technicalities over an argument rather than what's in the argument we won't get anywhere. If you believe his argument is unjust or unproper, then fine. say that. But don't let that take priority and derail the whole argument to begin with.

Even if your intentions are in a good place, when you come into a conversation using all these terms all it looks like you're doing is placing yourself above the "plebians" because we're meant to be less smart than you for knowing how to google logical fallacies.

No, I'm not, I addressed the subject, and problems with it, I addressed a portion of his disrespectful response, and he's not deserving of a closer inspection because he's running through the forum trolling. 

Now I'll gladly address any fallacy in my opinion if you can point them out, but disagreeing isn't a fallacy, misrepresenting someone statement and challenging claims with niche exceptions are.

[Lutesque]

12 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Um, I said it does plenty of damage "and".

Don't waste your time debating if your going to ignore what is stated. Very little of the games content is over lvl 50.

And ? 

Most of the game is a dead waste land with rubbish rewards.... the above level 50 content might be only 5% of the total game but thats literally the only 5% that matters. I myself havent been to earth in months now simply because there's just nothing there worth my time....

16 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

 

And Vaska Kavat doesn't self recover, so if it was invulnerable it would be impossible to die in mission

You're right... it doesnt self recover.

This mod is rubbish.... ive been using Packleader in its place and this combination badically gives me infinite revives....

Overpowered ? 

Nope.... it didnt help me complete objectives any faster.... all its good for is preserving things like Combo Counters and whatever energy you have at the time.

Also so what if Vasca Kavat doesnt die ? You think the enemies care.... it takes both Bite and Maul at Max Rank and Sharpened Claws for my Vasca Kavat to kill a level 50 Heavy Gunner....  hardly game breaking if pets were to be invincible... i would still be using Smeeta Kavat for Charm regardless. 

24 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Feel free to construct another field of straw men though, it effectively supports your chauvinism. 

And you are free to believe Companions are somehow overpowered... even when they clearly are not.... 

13 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

A strawman is arguing against a point that wasn't made, and he falsely argued that if they don't do any damage, I exactly said the opposite, it does work, it does damage.

So basically you think they are overpowered based on a Technicality? 

He maybe Loki's disarm should have its range reduced because it deals 10 Impact Damage.

 

[BahamutKaiser]

@Lutesque That's my fault for saying recover instead of revive, but it doesn't really affect much. Still nothing but straw men.

[ghoti0315]

I kinda agree with that. It is so damn annoying when you see your smeeta just run into those grenades and get yeeted in less than 5 minutes arbitration. Companion shield gating still cant cope with the problem of suicidal companions.

Also a level 100 bombard can easy kill sentinel with full set of mods. What is the point of making companions glassy as f*ck if they are meant to support the player?

 

[Lutesque]

4 minutes ago, Nightmare142857 said:

I kinda agree with that. It is so damn annoying when you see your smeeta just run into those grenades and get yeeted in less than 5 minutes arbitration. Companion shield gating still cant cope with the problem of suicidal companions.

Shield gating didnt do anything for anyone we're being honest here.... its good Warframes like Hildryn and maybe Trinity since they can go from almost no shields to All Shields in one push of a button....however i found out that e enemies can output enough damage continuously to brute force and kill you despite shield gating. 

I will say that once Arcane Aegis Procs you are essentially unkillable.... but with only a 3% to proc at Rank 5.... dont count on it.... not while there are plenty of enemies that remove all your shields in one instance of damage (this is usually how i die with Gauss)....

 

[Reidenshi]

8 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

So, at the risk of wasting a page replying to your nonsense, let's just do this a faster route instead...

I am willing to formally wager you 500 plat that:

DE won't institute invincibility for companions without nerfing their abilities.

You game?

Put your money where your mouth is or stop running your mouth.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Reidenshi said:

Either take the bet... or don't.

It's a debate you started so now have the courage of your convictions... or shush.

 

[Reidenshi]

15 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Either take the bet... or don't.

It's a debate you started so now have the courage of your convictions... or shush.

You keep avoiding one simple question. The debate is not about how DE will handle it.

[Chicken-Biryani]

There is a simple solution... Equip a sentinel or moa without a weapon and they become invincible (cuz they won't be killing anything that way). On pets give us a invincibility mod that makes pets follow the player and do nothing to the enemy. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

19 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I mentioned in a thread I made a couple days ago how a game I play called Terraria has summons that cannot be damaged. I dismissed this idea on the basis that "This probably would never work in Warframe."  because of them not taking damage.

But I've been thinking about it several times since, specifically in regards to the Sentinels/Moas/Kubrows/Kavats. Survivability has always been the biggest concern on everyones mind when it comes to them. Sentinels are infamous for dying and the mods for them to increase it really need a buff, as even Link mods on relatively low stat frames surpass them on Moas and Pets.

So, what if we took a more radical approach and simply made it...so companions couldn't/don't die in missions? It could free up several mod slots to be used for more utility rather than ensuring it survives slightly longer in missions and it might even incentivise players to bring lessar used Sentinels into higher leveled missions that otherwise would not be used because of their squishiness.

I'm unsure if Moas/Pets should be subjected to knockback or other effects and if Sentinels would need something similar for fairness.

I understand this is a big change, potentially huge but the more I think about it the more I think it might see more benefit than downside without causing a major shift in powercreep that would be useful for any player at any stage of the game.

What do you guys think?

How about this? Every companion now has Reawaken built-in, just rework the cooldown a little and that's it, make Djinn's Reawaken something like "passive sentinel mods remain active for Djinn's owner during its respawn cooldown" or something like that.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2020-07-07 at 5:13 AM, Reidenshi said:

You keep avoiding one simple question. The debate is not about how DE will handle it.

The debate is entirely about how DE will handle it or you don't remember your own question.

"Exactly what functions make companion vulnerability necessary"_-you

Since you got that answer (twice)...The only thing being "avoided" here is you agreeing to my friendly little wager😃

 

The simple facts of the matter is that you won't because you know that DE won't give companions invulnerability without adjusting/reducing/removing the function they provide too.

...Which means you never had a point to begin with.

Heck, DE won't ever give companions invulnerability regardless so it's a non-issue to begin with and this is a 4 page thread about nothing.

That's a shame too... Because companions do need higher EHP (or some form of ehp scaling) for these tougher missions and people, like yourself, squander what could have been a useful conversation with outlandish nonsense like invulnerability.

 

 

[Angwah]

Ok, let us be fair here. Whether it be a sentinel or one of the animal companions, at least me personally take them along for their utility and specials, set bonuses and not much more.

So, Vacuum, loot and enemy radar first and foremost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you simply don't own those, practically all companions will have those two mods slotted. I would suggest that if mods are 'mandatory' to such an extent, you might as well build this functionality into all companions. 

And than there is the reason you actually pick a particular companion to take along. Smeeta's Charm for farming, Kubrow Dig in the open worlds, Taxon for shield frames, whatever it is you need at the moment. Those core abilities, especially as they are linked to the specific breeds and/or models, could also just be built-in capabilities instead of being a third 'mandatory' slot.

I am not exactly a fan of the attack precept mods either, but providing more variation might justify their existence as mods instead of built-in capabilities.

Doing so means more space for survivability mods and more variations in building companions as currently there is none. Sentinels have a basic load-out, as do the beasties. In general only one or two mods, the breed/model specific ones, differ, the rest remains practically the same.

And yes, if you are doing an endurance or high-level mission (sorties, arbitrations, boss fights) you have to resign yourself to losing your sentinel at some point, and if you go for the beasties you'd better go for pack-hunter + melee unless you enjoy rezzing your pet a lot, which feels reductive. 

Invulnerability is perhaps too much, but a Venari-like system, also for sentinels, would be needed if we want to move away from the current one-build-fits-all situation.

[Marvelous_A]

A passive mode will be great, if it doesn't attack it doesn't get attacked too.

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, Angwah said:

So, Vacuum, loot and enemy radar first and foremost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you simply don't own those, practically all companions will have those two mods slotted. I would suggest that if mods are 'mandatory' to such an extent, you might as well build this functionality into all companions. 

Thats what was suggested about Weapon Damage Mods like Serration and Hornet Strike....

If it makes sense and is a good idea... DE Wont do it.

Hell right now you need to sacrifice a slot just to make your Sentinal Shoot something.

4 hours ago, Angwah said:

And yes, if you are doing an endurance or high-level mission (sorties, arbitrations, boss fights) you have to resign yourself to losing your sentinel at some point, and if you go for the beasties you'd better go for pack-hunter + melee unless you enjoy rezzing your pet a lot, which feels reductive. 

This I disagree with

you shouldnt have to resign your to losing anything if its not in your control.... also what good is packleader in One Hit Kill Situations ? In high level content your Pet is either dead or alive.... HP is irrelevant. For Kavats Tek Assault is going to provide more survivability than Pack Leader.

4 hours ago, Angwah said:

Invulnerability is perhaps too much,

Wont know until we try it.... Invulnerabilty does little to actually contribute to mission objectives so i wouldnt say its too much.

[Invisibleaxeman]

Could make all companions like Venari, death causes a timeout for the companion.  This would mean survival stuff is still useful equating to less companion downtime.  The regen/bleedout mods could change to reducing downtime.

[Angwah]

47 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Thats what was suggested about Weapon Damage Mods like Serration and Hornet Strike....

If it makes sense and is a good idea... DE Wont do it.

Hell right now you need to sacrifice a slot just to make your Sentinal Shoot something.

Yeah, as I said, the current selection of precept mods is lacking, to say the least. Either scrap them or give more variation.

As for the base weapon damage mods, yeah, as long as there is no variation such as Primed, Umbral or Amalgam versions they're in the same street. 

47 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

This I disagree with

you shouldnt have to resign your to losing anything if its not in your control.... also what good is packleader in One Hit Kill Situations ? In high level content your Pet is either dead or alive.... HP is irrelevant. For Kavats Tek Assault is going to provide more survivability than Pack Leader.

Myeah, by saying you should resign yourself I am not exactly voicing support for the current situation. On the contrary.

Tek Assault is a kavat only mod, and one of those very few mods which provide variation in builds, yes. It's a good mod. Now, situations where all incoming damage one-shots your pet? Eh, at that point you must be very, very deep into an endurance run and using a frame with little life and/or armor. Melee + pack hunter can keep up in sorties and arbitrations under two hours in my experience. Never bothered to go on longer endurance runs to be honest, but even at that point didn't have the feeling I was close to a point where my pet was under threat of constant one-shotting, so in my book tek assault and pack hunter aren't mutually exclusive. YMMV and all that obviously.

47 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Wont know until we try it.... Invulnerabilty does little to actually contribute to mission objectives so i wouldnt say its too much.

Wouldn't mind it, but making all direct survival mods obsolete is definitely the bigger and more radical step than more incremental tweaks such as autorezzing like Venari and the like.

[Lutesque]

23 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Tek Assault is a kavat only mod, and one of those very few mods which provide variation in builds, yes. It's a good mod. Now, situations where all incoming damage one-shots your pet? Eh, at that point you must be very, very deep into an endurance run and using a frame with little life and/or armor. Melee + pack hunter can keep up in sorties and arbitrations under two hours in my experience. Never bothered to go on longer endurance runs to be honest, but even at that point didn't have the feeling I was close to a point where my pet was under threat of constant one-shotting, so in my book tek assault and pack hunter aren't mutually exclusive. YMMV and all that obviously.

This happened only 65 Minutes into Kuva Survival with my Umbral Khora....

My other Kavat died in 3 seconds during a lich hunt when my lich was only Rank 2.... 

In the case of sorties its obviously going to depends.... Energy drain is obviously inconsequential but Physical/Elemental Enhancements are problematic for pets.

Its easy  for ememies to one shot Pets.... thats what happens when they  try to attack thin air for 40 Seconds straight.

29 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Wouldn't mind it, but making all direct survival mods obsolete is definitely the bigger and more radical step than more incremental tweaks such as autorezzing like Venari and the like.

I mean.... its Digital Extremes.... it would be weird if they did that.... invincible is the way to go  

[Jarriaga]

On 2020-07-06 at 6:53 AM, WhiteMarker said:

And you think this would chance with OP's idea?
Why do people use stuff like Animal Instinct and Vacuum? Because it's pretty useful. And if we wouldn't have to use health mods anymore, we would just use the next useful thing in the line.
Builds would still be the same, just with more "power", because slots aren't "wasted" on health mods anymore...

This is my stance as well. 

Slots taken by Link Armor (1), Link Health (2), Pack Leader (3), Medi-Pet Kit (4), Reflect (5) and Tek Assault (6) would just be replaced by 100% damage/support buffs in my Adarza, making it little more than an immortal crit chance stat stick that heals me every time it attacks (With Hunter Recovery).

I think that would be a broken interaction for the same reason as Xoris is for stat sticks: The level of convenience is so high that it oversteps and eliminates several "soft-caps" by not having to aim towards balance at all.

I'd be fine with Companions getting a rather large boost to HP, Armor and Shields by making companion survivability mods be 3x-4x their current values, but not full and complete immortality.