What if Companions simply could not die/become downed? (Companion Immortality)

[Zahnny]

I mentioned in a thread I made a couple days ago how a game I play called Terraria has summons that cannot be damaged. I dismissed this idea on the basis that "This probably would never work in Warframe."  because of them not taking damage.

But I've been thinking about it several times since, specifically in regards to the Sentinels/Moas/Kubrows/Kavats. Survivability has always been the biggest concern on everyones mind when it comes to them. Sentinels are infamous for dying and the mods for them to increase it really need a buff, as even Link mods on relatively low stat frames surpass them on Moas and Pets.

So, what if we took a more radical approach and simply made it...so companions couldn't/don't die in missions? It could free up several mod slots to be used for more utility rather than ensuring it survives slightly longer in missions and it might even incentivise players to bring lessar used Sentinels into higher leveled missions that otherwise would not be used because of their squishiness.

I'm unsure if Moas/Pets should be subjected to knockback or other effects and if Sentinels would need something similar for fairness.

I understand this is a big change, potentially huge but the more I think about it the more I think it might see more benefit than downside without causing a major shift in powercreep that would be useful for any player at any stage of the game.

What do you guys think?

[DrivaMain]

If anything, every players will cheer up with this change just like stasis removal. No more band aid mods, No more relying on frames like Inaros to keep pets alive.

[vegetosayajin]

they should not die by default, yes

they are utility - vacuum and some mod set 

[TheNeonGod]

Also it would not be much of a distraction or a weakness, if it wasn't we're  realizing our companion is down or sentinel is destroyed all the time. I also would hate to lose the loot and enemy radar, even the vacuum. Also the medi-kit, instant shield recharge if shields are down, and others utility base on their model or breed.    

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

I'd welcome it a lot. They were made at a time when their mortality served as an additional and indirect layer of player grind (no pet = less resources and buffs = slower progression). Nowadays, while still justified, it makes less sense than then.

[Voltage]

This just dumbs down the game even more. What's next? Operators need shield gating?

No thanks.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

It would be cool. I still kinda laugh though thinking about all the forum posts about people having their 7 forma Omega bulky lotus die permanently due to DNA degradation. Good times.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

This just dumbs down the game even more. What's next? Operators need shield gating?

No thanks.

Dont like it dont use it. Pets dont really serve a purpose when you either decide you have to let them die because they are going down every 10 seconds or spend the whole mission baby sitting. Personally I like pets and would like them to be somewhat useful on stuff above level 50. (Smeeta aside for obvious reasons.)

[WhiteMarker]

Sure, immortal Sentinels. So how balance nerf their abilities to work with that change?

[ReaverKane]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This just dumbs down the game even more. What's next? Operators need shield gating?

No thanks.

Actually, keeping it like this is what dumbs it up... Making the gameplay retarded, or making the pet less useful and unique due to the sheer number of mandatory mods you need on it...
Pets are dumbed down already simply because you have 8 slots of which, at least 4-5 have to be the same on all pets for base usefulness and survivability. (2-3 link mods + Animal Instinct + vacuum/fetc).

[WhiteMarker]

2 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Actually, keeping it like this is what dumbs it up... Making the gameplay retarded, or making the pet less useful and unique due to the sheer number of mandatory mods you need on it...
Pets are dumbed down already simply because you have 8 slots of which, at least 4-5 have to be the same on all pets for base usefulness and survivability. (2-3 link mods + Animal Instinct + vacuum/fetc).

And you think this would chance with OP's idea?
Why do people use stuff like Animal Instinct and Vacuum? Because it's pretty useful. And if we wouldn't have to use health mods anymore, we would just use the next useful thing in the line.
Builds would still be the same, just with more "power", because slots aren't "wasted" on health mods anymore...

[dreadley]

I've been thinking about it several times in regards to the Public Squads. Survivability has always been the biggest concern on everyones mind when it comes to them. Pubs are infamous for dying and the builds for them to increase survivability really need a buff, as even automatic builds surpass what they come up with.

So, what if we took a more radical approach and simply made it...so pubs couldn't/don't die in missions? It could free up several forum posts complaining about nonexistent difficulty in game for more S#&$posts and it might even incentivise players to stay more than 5 waves in low level defense missions otherwise would not be played because of their squishiness.

[Zahnny]

1 minute ago, dreadley said:

I've been thinking about it several times in regards to the Public Squads. Survivability has always been the biggest concern on everyones mind when it comes to them. Pubs are infamous for dying and the builds for them to increase survivability really need a buff, as even automatic builds surpass what they come up with.

So, what if we took a more radical approach and simply made it...so pubs couldn't/don't die in missions? It could free up several forum posts complaining about nonexistent difficulty in game for more S#&$posts and it might even incentivise players to stay more than 5 waves in low level defense missions otherwise would not be played because of their squishiness.

You forgot to include your Wojak.

[Voltage]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Demon Intellect said:

Dont like it dont use it. Pets dont really serve a purpose when you either decide you have to let them die because they are going down every 10 seconds or spend the whole mission baby sitting. Personally I like pets and would like them to be somewhat useful on stuff above level 50. (Smeeta aside for obvious reasons.)

The problem with Companions is AI and usefulness. Just because your Vasca Kavat is immortal doesn't mean it's all of a sudden practical to pick. Bad companions remain bad. 

If your companion is going down every 10 seconds, that's usually on you. Sometimes they do get stuck or have bad pathing and get killed, but that's an AI problem that should be addressed separately. Sentinels being targeted when a player goes down is also another issue. Immortality is a bad band aid that is unhealthy for the game, but most players will love it because it's a biased change.

13 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Actually, keeping it like this is what dumbs it up... Making the gameplay retarded, or making the pet less useful and unique due to the sheer number of mandatory mods you need on it...
Pets are dumbed down already simply because you have 8 slots of which, at least 4-5 have to be the same on all pets for base usefulness and survivability. (2-3 link mods + Animal Instinct + vacuum/fetc).

This isn't even an argument. Every item in the game has mandatory mods. Your Primary effectively has 3 or 4 mod slots as a Critical Primary, 2 (usually 0 tbh) as a Critical Secondary, and maybe 1 or 2 as a proper Melee. Archwing has mandatory mods, your Railjack has mandatory mods, and even K-Drive has mandatory mods.

[ReaverKane]

6 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

And you think this would chance with OP's idea?
Why do people use stuff like Animal Instinct and Vacuum? Because it's pretty useful. And if we wouldn't have to use health mods anymore, we would just use the next useful thing in the line.
Builds would still be the same, just with more "power", because slots aren't "wasted" on health mods anymore...

There aren't that many "power" items, but there are plenty of Utility ones.

 

5 minutes ago, dreadley said:

I've been thinking about it several times in regards to the Public Squads. Survivability has always been the biggest concern on everyones mind when it comes to them. Pubs are infamous for dying and the builds for them to increase survivability really need a buff, as even automatic builds surpass what they come up with.

So, what if we took a more radical approach and simply made it...so pubs couldn't/don't die in missions? It could free up several forum posts complaining about nonexistent difficulty in game for more S#&$posts and it might even incentivise players to stay more than 5 waves in low level defense missions otherwise would not be played because of their squishiness.

Pubs don't depend on a S#&$ty Pet AI that leaves the pet 3000 meters from the owner, because there's a Regulator floating too high for it to hit...
Basically, that's a really bad analogy...

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The problem with Companions is AI and usefulness. Just because your Vasca Kavat is immortal doesn't mean it's all of a sudden practical to pick. Bad companions remain bad. 

If your companion is going down every 10 seconds, that's usually on you. Sometimes they do get stuck or have bad pathing and get killed, but that's an AI problem that should be addressed separately. Sentinels being targeted when a player goes down is also another issue. Immortality is a bad band aid that is unhealthy for the game, but most players will love it because it's a biased change.

This isn't even an argument. Every item in the game has mandatory mods. Your Primary effectively has 4 mod slots as a Critical Primary, 2 as a Critical Secondary, and maybe 1 or 2 as a proper Melee. Archwing has mandatory mods, your Railjack has mandatory mods, and even K-Drive has mandatory mods.

Difference is, that first, there's still more mandatory mods on pets. And second, all the mandatory mods on the primary enhance its main usage. Of all the mandatory mods on pets, only 2 will... And i'm not counting stuff like Charm, Cat's Eye and what not in those, because if we do, then you have 2-3 optional slots in 8.

 

[dreadley]

1 minute ago, ReaverKane said:

Pubs don't depend on a S#&$ty Pet AI that leaves the pet 3000 meters from the owner, because there's a Regulator floating too high for it to hit...

Are you sure you are playing in public missions? That makes much more sense than most of the things they do! Come on man it's a great suggestion!

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, ReaverKane said:

There aren't that many "power" items, but there are plenty of Utility ones.

I didn't just talk about "powers" as in abilities. Utility-mods are power aswell.
So how to balance pets, if they got such a huge buff?

[kyori]

I heard the sentinel thing in Nier Automata also won't die. Rebecca like that game maybe because of that? haha

[ReaverKane]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

I didn't just talk about "powers" as in abilities. Utility-mods are power aswell.
So how to balance pets, if they got such a huge buff?

What huge buff?
Basic survivability isn't really a buff... I mean having them be useable, that can be a buff, i guess...

[DrivaMain]

23 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Sure, immortal Sentinels. So how balance nerf their abilities to work with that change?

Removing "Unintended" interaction of Gladiator Mods affecting player's melee. I would take that trade-off.

How does showing enemy locations on the map would change the balance of power in the game? 

[Zahnny]

2 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

I didn't just talk about "powers" as in abilities. Utility-mods are power aswell.
So how to balance pets, if they got such a huge buff?

Well if utiliy is powercreep let's remove all the utility mods.

I honestly don't see why this is a controversial issue. It's not like it's a change that once done cannot be altered in the future. I don't like being unable to take sentinels into high level because an enemy with 3m of AoE can one-shot a sentinel.

[LSG501]

Sentinels... they could all do with a buff in either base health/armor/shields OR have some innate damage reduction/avoidance imo.  Wouldn't hurt to have primed regen work more than 3 times.... personally I'd prefer it to be more like reawaken (djinn) where it works on a 30 second cooldown and then djinn gets an improved version with shorter (say 10 seconds) or no cooldown.

 

Pets... I'm ok with the current system of them being revived, I just wish that they weren't linked to our warframe health, yes I know we can use sentinel mods but that always works out worse than using the link mods in my experience.  So I suppose you could argue if they're not getting improved AI, they need more health etc.

Biggest issues for pets imo is that their AI is stupid (same with AI of rescue targets etc) and they will happily stand in the middle of a load of fire, or stay fighting something several rooms back etc.... The other issue is basically with build variety, you have no choice but to use certain mods and ultimately you end up sacrificing anything 'useful' from them such as 'attack mods'.  Ideally we need them to have an 'attack' page similar to sentinels when we pick their weapon.

 

For me Moas are the least useful... they 'should' be the perfect balance between sentinels and pets but last time I checked (wasn't long ago) half the sentinel mods don't work correctly because the moa isn't by your side and so when the moa activates the mod doesn't affect the warframe like it does on sentinels (one mod was found to have this issue and fixed).

I'd maybe use moas more if the mods all worked correctly

 

 

EDIT: Companions could always be given a 'summon tool' in the gear wheel, maybe with a health buff similar to how spectres gain ranks at higher levels, to help with higher levels.

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Difference is, that first, there's still more mandatory mods on pets. And second, all the mandatory mods on the primary enhance its main usage. Of all the mandatory mods on pets, only 2 will... And i'm not counting stuff like Charm, Cat's Eye and what not in those, because if we do, then you have 2-3 optional slots in 8.

???

You have just as little creativity on a companion as you do a properly built secondary or melee. If we baked in base damage into weapons, do you know what happens? Something replaces it and the amount of mandatory mods stays equal. You remove all eHP mods off companions, and there will be a mod to take it's place. You really think making them immortal makes them interesting to mod? If anything, you will just slot the mandatory utility mods, not bother using Forma, and Synth Mods to let you reload while holstered. Sounds way more boring to me than a pet that actually has something to manage.

[WhiteMarker]

2 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

What huge buff?
Basic survivability isn't really a buff... I mean having them be useable, that can be a buff, i guess...

Things are build around the trade-off that companions can die. Making them immortal is a huge buff. Do I have to draw a picture?

1 minute ago, Zahnny said:

Well if utiliy is powercreep let's remove all the utility mods.

I honestly don't see why this is a controversial issue. It's not like it's a change that once done cannot be altered in the future. I don't like being unable to take sentinels into high level because an enemy with 3m of AoE can one-shot a sentinel.

The power creep is that the trade-off of dying is removed. This is quite the buff. Actually pretty easy to understand, isn't it?

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Removing "Unintended" interaction with Gladiator Mods affecting player's melee. I would take that trade-off.

And you speak for everyone in the game?
And is it really unintended? For now it isn't. If it was, it wouldn't be in the game anymore.

3 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

How does adding enemy locations on the map would change the balance of power in the game? 

As described above:
Removing a balancing factor like the ability to die is a buff. And quite the big one if we take peoples words that their companion is always dead...

[Xaero]

29 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This just dumbs down the game even more.

IMO there's nothing to dumb down. Because there's nothing smart in making them vulnerable in the first place.