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July 2020 Riven Disposition Updates

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2020/7/14 AM11点13分 , Speedstang 说:

Was the Sepfahn really getting that much use? Unfortunate, although I'm quite biased towards it, heh. Nice seeing the Kitgun primaries get a boost along with a lot of underused weapons.

might be late for a reply but yesm Sepfahn is quite popular among min-maxers' community. Sepfahn nikana is one of the few disruption lvl9999 mob viable weapons. when I say viable I truly mean easy to kill

this melee 3.0 actually made any slashy weapon goes hard on everything. prova vandal now is doable. 

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can you please delete rivens? that way you can get bonus publicity points from people that never actually play the game but put "Warframe removed a system because it started to resemble Pay 2 Win, so the devs took action" in their YouTube videos

i love my scam slot machine btw

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Posted (edited)

why are so many people mad about this? They nerfed many of my favourite weapons as well, but what do you expect if everyone only plays the META builds you see on youtube? And if an unpopular weapon is buffed that youve liked for a long time, its really rewarding.

 

I feel like if they didnt nerf the OP weapons in one way or another, people would cry about balance in the next threat.

 

edit: keep in mind that rolling a good riven is almost never "lost" like you try to make it sound. Were talking about 5-25% buffs/nerfs for a single mod. This only really takes large effect once you lose breakpoints like 100% crit/stat maybe. Furthermore weapons like the arca plasmor that got nerfed not too long ago are already being buffed again. Its not a one-way street and it seems like only the nerfs are seen. Last but not least, if a new weapon is released and its ridiculously overpowered, especially veterans should be able to predict that its riven will be nerfed as well (or kept around 0.5 as of recent).

Edited by cuddlycloud
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On 2020-07-17 at 5:30 AM, TnaneverRisen said:

The whole riven disposition system is dumb.  Why not just adjust the base stats of weapons instead of doing this really strange artificial balancing act?

Weapon damage ballpark is tiered based on MR ranking. 

You can not buff "weak" weapon core stats without taking into context the performance of other weapons in the same MR damage grouping because you then create an outlier. 

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On 2020-07-15 at 2:06 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Shedu: 0.9->0.85

First AoE damage nerf (up to 60% penalty on a weapon that already has only half of it's damage as AoE, mind you), then status changes that made gas into a joke, further decreasing shedu's effectiveness, and now this? 

Press F.

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On 2020-07-19 at 6:48 AM, Jarriaga said:

Weapon damage ballpark is tiered based on MR ranking. 

You can not buff "weak" weapon core stats without taking into context the performance of other weapons in the same MR damage grouping because you then create an outlier. 

 

I'm aware of this.  The weapon damage based on mastery tiers is one of the the main reason why the whole riven system is dumb.  They generally give higher riven dispositions to lower mastery weapons, because they're generally weaker than higher mastery weapons - so what's the point of having different mastery tiers in the first place?  If their goal is to heavily influence weapon balance based on rivens, which everyone can get easily, then just balance the weapons to begin with and get rid of the very artificial disposition system.

Mastery requirements on equipment could just be a way of gating additional combat playstyle options (and/or more interesting looking equipment - since this is fashionframe at the end of the day).

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7 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

so what's the point of having different mastery tiers in the first place?

The point is general progression outside Rivens. Without tiers, you would be doing the same damage on Earth when you start the game all the way to Kuva Liches and Corinth/Tigris Prime.

That's true for all stat-based games starting from the very first Final Fantasy on NES. Your first sword doesn't compete with a late-game sword.

9 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

 If their goal is to heavily influence weapon balance based on rivens, which everyone can get easily, then just balance the weapons to begin with and get rid of the very artificial disposition system.

So you'd rather get all damage equalized? Stug competing with Tigris Prime?

13 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Mastery requirements on equipment could just be a way of gating additional combat playstyle options

That's a separate topic. DE would have to first not want tiers. Considering the MR damage grouping took place only 2 years and 4 months ago I don't think that's a design philosophy they'll change any time soon.

And even then, what would "additional combat playstyle options" mean in practical terms people can envision? I can envision Level 1 weapon damage < Level 14 weapon damage. But what am I to envision or understand with "combat playstyle options"? You mean locking entire weapon categories behind MR? 

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40 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The point is general progression outside Rivens. Without tiers, you would be doing the same damage on Earth when you start the game all the way to Kuva Liches and Corinth/Tigris Prime.

That's true for all stat-based games starting from the very first Final Fantasy on NES. Your first sword doesn't compete with a late-game sword.

So you'd rather get all damage equalized? Stug competing with Tigris Prime?

That's a separate topic. DE would have to first not want tiers. Considering the MR damage grouping took place only 2 years and 4 months ago I don't think that's a design philosophy they'll change any time soon.

And even then, what would "additional combat playstyle options" mean in practical terms people can envision? I can envision Level 1 weapon damage < Level 14 weapon damage. But what am I to envision or understand with "combat playstyle options"? You mean locking entire weapon categories behind MR? 

 

"Progression" - the type of progression you're referring to is essentially non-existant in this game.  People breeze through several weapons and mastery ranks, with all the developer effort wasted on creating all the models/animations.  The real progression is collecting mods and collecting/spending various resources.  If a person spends 7 forma and a catalyst on a weapon, ANY WEAPON, it should be top tier along with anything else with similar investments.

"Damage equalized" - no.  Different options, different builds, more/different specializations.  Destiny 2 is a perfect example of this.  For example, one archetype of sniper rifle shoots faster than another, but does less damage and has less bulit-in aim assistance.  This allows for people to build around a certain playstyle - maybe stealth or radar-focused builds will be preferred by a player for one gun over the other.  Example 2 - one style of early pistol may have a reload speed perk based on headshot kills, but a "high level" pistol of the same archetype may have essentially the same stats, but allows for a a lower reload perk bonus based on body shot kills.  People can optimize their build based on numerous playstyles, and these playstyles become available as a person progresses through the game world.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

"Progression" - the type of progression you're referring to is essentially non-existant in this game.  People breeze through several weapons and mastery ranks, with all the developer effort wasted on creating all the models/animations.

That's a failure of execution rather than a failure of intent.

That's a direct result of DE deciding to cap weapon mastery at 15, effectively giving you 10-20 weapons per bracket when in reality you'll use 2 or 3. Heck, MR4 has 27 weapons. This would not be a problem if weapons were spread around more all the way to MR25.

31 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

The real progression is collecting mods and collecting/spending various resources.  If a person spends 7 forma and a catalyst on a weapon, ANY WEAPON, it should be top tier along with anything else with similar investments.

I don't agree. Mods work on percentages rather than flat values. A low MR weapon will NEVER benefit from the same mods to the same degree all else being equal.

That's exactly the reason why mods themselves are the ones often reworked when the entire system is tiered in order to equalize. Otherwise look at Reach being changed from a percentage to a flat value so it didn't benefit weapons with a longer reach disproportionately more by virtue of having a higher base stat to scale off from.

The modding system itself is the problem. Not the weapon tier. You could argue all mods should be changed to flat values. This would indeed equalize mostly everything if going by your example of 7 Forma. You can also make an argument for some weapons getting buffed to higher tiers. Which ones? And why would X be more deserving than Y?

31 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

"Damage equalized" - no.  Different options, different builds, more/different specializations. Destiny 2 is a perfect example of this.  For example, one archetype of sniper rifle shoots faster than another, but does less damage and has less bulit-in aim assistance.  This allows for people to build around a certain playstyle - maybe stealth or radar-focused builds will be preferred by a player for one gun over the other.  Example 2 - one style of early pistol may have a reload speed perk based on headshot kills, but a "high level" pistol of the same archetype may have essentially the same stats, but allows for a a lower reload perk bonus based on body shot kills.  People can optimize their build based on numerous playstyles, and these playstyles become available as a person progresses through the game world.

WF already does what you are suggesting. Just compare base vs. prime variants and even same weapons within the same category and you'll find tradeoffs everywhere. Higher crit but less status. Higher status but less crit. High status and crit but low fire rate. Telos Boltor is crit. Boltor Prime is status. This is no different.

And weapon "perks" such as better aim assistance are not going to change that people build weapons for flat-out damage spreading efficiency rather than specialization because there is 0 reason to specialize in WF. Why pick a frame with good CC in defense or interception when I can stand still and nuke the map with Khora or Saryn or Mesa? Why would I need for my weapons to have specialization perks in a Grineer defense mission when Limbo freezes all Grineer in place helpless against any damage? This is a game focused on abilities rather than the weapons. It used to be the other way around years ago, but not anymore.

That's a core fault of game design that has nothing to do with weapons. Buffing weapons or adding perks with progression is not going to change that. And even if we were to focus exclusively on weapons, mods such as Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds flat-out bypass (If not outright destroy) any semblance of concept of "specialization" when you can use both at once to reach 100% crit and 100% status on weapons. This goes back to the modding system itself being the problem because it makes so you don't have to specialize. You don't have to choose. You get it all at once. 

 

Edited by Jarriaga
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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That's a failure of execution rather than a failure of intent.

That's a direct result of DE deciding to cap weapon mastery at 15, effectively giving you 8-10 weapons per bracket when in reality you'll use 2 or 3. Heck, MR4 has 27 weapons. This would not be a problem if weapons were spread around more all the way to MR25.

I don't agree. Mods work on percentages rather than flat values. A low MR weapon will NEVER benefit from the same mods to the same degree all else being equal.

That's exactly the reason why mods themselves are the ones often reworked when the entire system is tiered in order to equalize. Otherwise look at Reach being changed from a percentage to a flat value so it didn't benefit weapons with a longer reach disproportionately more by virtue of having a higher base stat to scale off from.

The modding system itself is the problem. Not the weapon tier. You could argue all mods should be changed to flat values. This would indeed equalize mostly everything if going by your example of 7 Forma

WF already does what you are suggesting. Just compare base vs. prime variants and even same weapons within the same category and you'll find tradeoffs everywhere. Higher crit but less status. Higher status but less crit. High status and crit but low fire rate. This is no different.

And weapon "perks" such as better aim assistance are not going to change that people build weapons for flat-out damage spreading efficiency rather than specialization because there is 0 reason to specialize in WF. Why pick a frame with good CC in defense or interception when I can stand still and nuke the map with Khora or Saryn or Mesa? Why would I need for my weapons to have specialization perks in a Grineer defense mission when Limbo freezes all Grineer in place helpless against any damage? This is a game focused on abilities rather than the weapons. It used to be the other way around years ago, but not anymore.

That's a core fault of game design that has nothing to do with weapons. Buffing weapons or adding perks with progression is not going to change that.

"I don't agree. Mods work on percentages rather than flat values. A low MR weapon will NEVER benefit from the same mods to the same degree all else being equal." - That's exactly why all the weapons should be balanced with each other on their base stats in the first place - not this artificial pseudobalance through riven mods (again - mods that everyone gets anyway, making tiers irrelevant in the first place).

"Otherwise look at Reach being changed from a percentage to a flat value so it didn't benefit weapons with a longer reach disproportionately more by virtue of having a higher base stat to scale off from." - This is a side topic, but I want to point out that this change disproportionately benefits weapons with shorter ranges - in other words, they just broke it in a different way.  If a person wants to use reach in a beam gun, it greatly benefits high damage short range guns more than low damage high range guns.  The % mod is probably better, because it automatically takes into account why the weapons were ranged differently in the first place.


Perk/specialization concerns - To address your concerns, here are three Warframe-specific examples of what can be done for specialization/variation (don't overly examine the specifics - just general ideas):

--Braton vs Braton Prime - they could have the same stats, with Braton doing an even balance of impact and slash damage, but Braton Prime having less status and more crit, and higher impact damage with less slash damage.

--Braton vs Grakata - They could keep the stylistic differences that already exist, but just balanced with so-called high-tier weapons.  Grakata could have a significantly larger magazine, maybe a focus on impact damage over other types, and a long reload.

--Magnus vs Vasto - They could keep the same theme, but balanced with each other of course, with Vasto having an even a higher focus on slash and reload speed vs Magnus' tri-damage and higher capacity.

DPS vs CC, other specialization - Like you pointed out, this issue is another problem due to various core design decisions that should be addressed.  It would be great if it they made all the available/intended playstyles and mechanics worthwhile in the first place by having more interesting enemy/AI/level design.

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Posted (edited)

The riven dispositions are fine. They really didn't change much.

Edited by Letter13
Removed quote of removed post.
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On 2020-07-19 at 5:10 PM, GREF_TM said:

First AoE damage nerf (up to 60% penalty on a weapon that already has only half of it's damage as AoE, mind you), then status changes that made gas into a joke, further decreasing shedu's effectiveness, and now this? 

Press F.

Oh no, a 0.5 disposition drop. What a tragedy. Whatever will Shedu users do.

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Thanks for some fanboy mod for deleting my "disrespecting" post. I'd like to remind that DE do everything to lose players right now.

What is Warframe now?

- wrong item tier and balancing ideas

-wrong content ideas

-quantity of bugs, - woops, yes I know all those are "features"

-lack of proper crash recovery system.

Sorry all the fanboys, hypocrits, and ignorants for that "blasphemy".

Time to look for another game.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-07-14 at 8:03 PM, kxZyle said:

Increase the lower dispo cap to 1.0.

 

As long as some minimum dispo weapons can still out damage some maximum dispo weapons the disparity isn't even big enough.

And as long as people are using minimum dispo rivens, the riven is not broken yet.

 

@Audiomaniak byeeee 🖐️

Edited by supernils

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On 2020-07-16 at 9:01 PM, Elemelepipi said:

As a former hardcore kuva farmer I recently stopped farming at all. While the content drought i could just farm kuva and chill for weeks. But now after you got back to your philosophy from 2016 that Rivens are for game balance... I will tell you something. Noone is rolling rivens to boost weapons to be as good as weapons that don't require rivens. If you think like that you must be so naive.. You don't know your own game. If you somehow see increased numbers in kuva floods and siphons thats because people are running them for Kuva Lich relics.

 

Al I said: people are rolling rivens to boost their favorite weapons.

 

🖐️ counter example here. I'm using rivens to make sub par weapons playable. I like to enjoy a whole variety of weapons versus the type of player that brings their Inaros Ignis Wraith 0.5 Riven to every single mission and is bored to death of the game only being left with crying on the forums why his only weapon gets a nerf.

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Suddenly Corinth Prime becomes weaker than base Corinth, This seems so out of control, why in hell a "Prime" version should feel by any means weaker than the supposed "better version"?

Seriously you need to stop this ridiculous riven system, just make the whole community mad, i know some weapons were broken beyond our minds with or without a riven, but you need to rethink a way of balancing this

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, FaridRLz said:

Suddenly Corinth Prime becomes weaker than base Corinth, This seems so out of control, why in hell a "Prime" version should feel by any means weaker than the supposed "better version"?

Seriously you need to stop this ridiculous riven system, just make the whole community mad, i know some weapons were broken beyond our minds with or without a riven, but you need to rethink a way of balancing this

DE did in the past a massive rebalance of all weapons around their expected damage and Mastery Level, then promptly ignored those principles when applying the same criteria to rivens!.

Still the entire riven system isn't working as it should, a riven should pull a weapon above its intended MR tier, to widen its "usability bracket" or rescue it from the fodder pile,  but not  make it better than it's higher MR prime variant when using identical builds.

The entire Mastery rank tiering for weapons goes completely down the drain this way

See the case of the baza, MR 7 vs baza prime, MR 10, the prime at +3 MR ranks got minimal improvements, the difference in disposition then makes a MR 7 weapon "better" than its MR 10 counterpart with the same build, making the prime a sidegrade at best, a redundant piece of ornate crap at worst - this is not what's intended or wanted for rivens!

Similar situation whith corinth MR 8 and corinth prime MR 14, were the prime is also hampered by a slower reload speed (but secondary fire is better! at the expense of consuming more ammo and having in fact the same number of shots in grenade mode than the standard version plus detonation only on command, making it more finnicky to operate)...

And again with aksomati MR 9 vs aksomati prime MR 12, were again the prime loses to the base version both in base stats, with very minor improvements over it and in a much worse riven disposition

Currently a riven can make a weapon better with the same build than one 3 or 6 ranks above it, all this based on a misterious and bullS#&amp;&#036; mistery "power factor" DE isn't disclosing, popularity, usage numbers, etc - this way of balancing things just doesn't work.

Some weapons have been repeatedly slammed down for simply doing their job well: murdering poligons and being enjoyable to use.

DE still doesn't realize one important thing: you can draw a graph, distribution whatever to justify whatever crap you want with "data", but purely numerical values don't tell the entire story.

Some weapons will be more popular of other of their same MR, or even better, due to a combination of factors like fun, ease of use, compatibility with current content.

See the catchmoon or the bramma: they worked well with what the game gives us, hordes of enemies in confined spaces, and were "easy" to get at inappropriately low mastery rank, relegating everything else available at that same point into the trash bin (as would be normal that an higher MR weapon with added grind should be markedly better than anything from a lower braket)

A weapon at a certain MR is meant by design to be better than a lower MR weapon/ MR fodder / trash, although outliers exist, a riven at best should "bridge" the gap between a base version and its prime / vandal / wraith /whatever version without riven.

What currently happens is that DE, after enforcing a massive restructuring of all our arsenal, then decides to change the rules again, ignoring the entire architecture they put in place just "because" they don't like a "meta", the result is mediocrity trough constant nerf of any form of emergent gameplay.

Better developers influence the meta by changing the ecosystem:

- area of effect weapons have become the only reliable weapon? introduce units that need pinpoint damage application to be defeated etc. etc.

Instead of invalidating player's choices create different challenges so that you can't answer all problems with the same tool

Also differences in riven dispositions among weapons of the same Mastery Rank /damage braket create further umbalances among weapons "supposedly" at the same tier.

Meanwhile higher disposition also means proportionally higher negative traits on a riven... quite counterintuitive for something meant to "give a second chance" to fodder weapons if you can get negatives like "-225% damage" or worse!

Considering its whopping 18 points modding cost all the RNG involved etc, it's disgusting that a riven could, depending on disposition, be worse than most 60/60 mods, corrupted mods or even common mods.

Edited by Ikusias

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On 2020-07-15 at 8:11 AM, ToKeSia said:

nope, warframe is multi, u can play alone but u can play with your friends too (don't say people play solo, it's just preference because many ppl out there still play with friends).

cyberpunk also has pvp and coop

This kind of information is easy to find if you look it up

 

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-07-14 at 2:03 PM, kxZyle said:

Increase the lower dispo cap to 1.0.

 

and upper cap to 2 and actually make S#&amp;&#036; weapons potentially useful at high dispo

Edited by Autumnatopoeia
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On 2020-07-14 at 9:52 PM, (PS4)B_smoked_u_tho said:

Not gnna say a word about the weak weapons riven dispos being nerfed as well, huh? 😂😂

Warframe is like its constantly in Beta mode. Just go look at the history of the Synoid simulor. I've played this game on and off since 2014, it's all over the place and always has been. Like I said, it's like a decade old game that's still in beta.

How about you give examples then? Because I've did notice weak weapon rivens being buffed, but raely did I see any get nerfed.

Edited by DreadWarlock

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On 2020-07-27 at 1:48 PM, supernils said:

As long as some minimum dispo weapons can still out damage some maximum dispo weapons the disparity isn't even big enough.

And as long as people are using minimum dispo rivens, the riven is not broken yet.

@Audiomaniak byeeee 🖐️

You missing the whole point, are you retar..d of smtg?

Edited by Audiomaniak
partially missed quote

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On 2020-07-27 at 3:43 PM, Ikusias said:

DE did in the past a massive rebalance of all weapons around their expected damage and Mastery Level, then promptly ignored those principles when applying the same criteria to rivens!.

Still the entire riven system isn't working as it should, a riven should pull a weapon above its intended MR tier, to widen its "usability bracket" or rescue it from the fodder pile,  but not  make it better than it's higher MR prime variant when using identical builds.

The entire Mastery rank tiering for weapons goes completely down the drain this way

See the case of the baza, MR 7 vs baza prime, MR 10, the prime at +3 MR ranks got minimal improvements, the difference in disposition then makes a MR 7 weapon "better" than its MR 10 counterpart with the same build, making the prime a sidegrade at best, a redundant piece of ornate crap at worst - this is not what's intended or wanted for rivens!

Similar situation whith corinth MR 8 and corinth prime MR 14, were the prime is also hampered by a slower reload speed (but secondary fire is better! at the expense of consuming more ammo and having in fact the same number of shots in grenade mode than the standard version plus detonation only on command, making it more finnicky to operate)...

And again with aksomati MR 9 vs aksomati prime MR 12, were again the prime loses to the base version both in base stats, with very minor improvements over it and in a much worse riven disposition

Currently a riven can make a weapon better with the same build than one 3 or 6 ranks above it, all this based on a misterious and bullS#&amp;&#036; mistery "power factor" DE isn't disclosing, popularity, usage numbers, etc - this way of balancing things just doesn't work.

Some weapons have been repeatedly slammed down for simply doing their job well: murdering poligons and being enjoyable to use.

DE still doesn't realize one important thing: you can draw a graph, distribution whatever to justify whatever crap you want with "data", but purely numerical values don't tell the entire story.

Some weapons will be more popular of other of their same MR, or even better, due to a combination of factors like fun, ease of use, compatibility with current content.

See the catchmoon or the bramma: they worked well with what the game gives us, hordes of enemies in confined spaces, and were "easy" to get at inappropriately low mastery rank, relegating everything else available at that same point into the trash bin (as would be normal that an higher MR weapon with added grind should be markedly better than anything from a lower braket)

A weapon at a certain MR is meant by design to be better than a lower MR weapon/ MR fodder / trash, although outliers exist, a riven at best should "bridge" the gap between a base version and its prime / vandal / wraith /whatever version without riven.

What currently happens is that DE, after enforcing a massive restructuring of all our arsenal, then decides to change the rules again, ignoring the entire architecture they put in place just "because" they don't like a "meta", the result is mediocrity trough constant nerf of any form of emergent gameplay.

Better developers influence the meta by changing the ecosystem:

- area of effect weapons have become the only reliable weapon? introduce units that need pinpoint damage application to be defeated etc. etc.

Instead of invalidating player's choices create different challenges so that you can't answer all problems with the same tool

Also differences in riven dispositions among weapons of the same Mastery Rank /damage braket create further umbalances among weapons "supposedly" at the same tier.

Meanwhile higher disposition also means proportionally higher negative traits on a riven... quite counterintuitive for something meant to "give a second chance" to fodder weapons if you can get negatives like "-225% damage" or worse!

Considering its whopping 18 points modding cost all the RNG involved etc, it's disgusting that a riven could, depending on disposition, be worse than most 60/60 mods, corrupted mods or even common mods.

I'll be honest here you're partially right and partially wrong. Partially right because yes, normal variants have no business becoming stronger than Orokin tech, but this also applies to Zaws and Kitguns who also have no business being among the meta, while being built using scraps and inferior tech.

Thing is Rivens should've never been a thing for higher MR weapons, These weapons need to be rebalanced to never need to depend on a riven, and get their riven removed.

Riven dispo system should get reworked to apply to weapons below to a certain MR, and dispo should be changed accorting to MR positioning and not to populrity, that way riven would be a way of bringing weapons all the way from their original rating up to the RIven cut off MR. making all Weapons viable for high level content but not superior to weapons above that rating.

Edited by DreadWarlock
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28 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

dispo should be changed accorting to MR positioning

I like this part. Lots of MR marauders aka "I don't need MR higher than 16." would get a reason to exp.

Edited by Audiomaniak
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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Audiomaniak:

I like this part. Lots of MR marauders aka "I don't need MR higher than 16." would get a reason to exp.

i hate it. why make us grind bad unpotatoed unformad weapons ..?

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