Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

scintillant is such a pain.

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I'm tired of beating around the bush for half a decade on mistakes they should have learned from with Plains of Eidolon in 2017. It's getting old. Why am I even bothering with this update on launch if I am quite literally wasting my time. An untested and unstable mess.

Exactly your reaction is why I pointed out you have no chill. I am not trying to opose your opinion now, but I don't get why you stress so much about it. It's just a game.

[Cerikus]

10 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Last time I checked, I installed the free to play space ninja action shooter called Warframe, not fishing simulator or shooting tiny birds out of the sky for time-gated tokens to rankup the dysfunctional Entrati family for some Mastery/completion. There were numerous issues with conservation in both Plains of Eidolion and Orb Vallis over the last few years. That feedback was more than enough to show you conservation is junk.

I wanna add one thing. I get why you are stressing over it. I am not saying I agree with you on this particular issue, but I get it. You obviously care about the game.

I had a lot of moments like you do. You know what I did? I gave a constructive feedback (not just - "this bad, delete") and took a break from the game. Then I returned and I felt better.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

I really dont understand the hate behind conservation being needed for ranking up. Its not like conservation is difficult or takes very long. You need to do it anyways to obtain the new infested companions, and I understand why doing tasks for each family member would contribute to standing lore wise. The issue I have is that conservation doesn't reward the player with enough Son tokens in general. You really should get tokens for successfully completing conservations, not just from trading in tags. The entire economy frankly needs rebalancing with how Mother tokens are objectively the only ones you should ever use for standing currently due to how uncommon the others are in comparison. Grandmothers Oddities are absurdly overpriced for how many of her tokens you need to buy a lot of them, which require in of themselves a lot of tokens that, coincidentally, require seemingly all BUT Mother tokens. If you would just increase the number of tokens obtained from doing the tasks of the other Entrati family members, it would largely fix the problem.

 

Screeching "CONSERVATION BAD. BAD CONSERVATION I DONT WANNA" isn't exactly constructive. You could make the same argument about fishing and mining, but again those don't take long and aren't difficult and, again, you need them for other items you get from the new syndicates anyways. Doesn't seem like a very strong argument and seems like people are just mad that content they personally don't like is being given more support.

[Voltage]

Just now, Cerikus said:

I had a lot of moments like you do. You know what I did? I gave a constructive feedback (not just - "this bad, delete" and took a break from the game. Then I returned and I felt better.

There is a point where constructive feedback isn't effective and you need to be blunt. I've been making constructive feedback for years and trying to make solid explanations and suggestions to aid updates. You really think constructive feedback does anything when DE just pushed Cetus Wisps 2.0 into Deimos thinking it was a good design choice? I'm sorry, but sometimes you just need to say things how they are and be realistic. There's a fine line between dev-bashing and being honest with how an update ships when it is in a state like this. This gives Empyrean and Scarlet Spear a run for their money.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

6 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This gives Empyrean and Scarlet Spear a run for their money.

Exaggerating your point doesn't make it any more accurate. You are implying that Heart of Deimos, an update that is largely functional where the issues primarily lie in more minor bugs and economy issues, is worse than Empyrean or Scarlet Spear which were updates that at launch barely functioned on top of the economy issues they also had. Honestly you just seem angry that DE are adding more support for gameplay that you, personally, don't like rather than trying to actually address the issues at hand. I do agree about the Scintillants though. Thats awful and needs to be addressed too.

[Cerikus]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

There is a point where constructive feedback isn't effective and you need to be blunt. I've been making constructive feedback for years and trying to make solid explanations and suggestions to aid updates. You really think constructive feedback does anything when DE just pushed Cetus Wisps 2.0 into Deimos thinking it was a good design choice? I'm sorry, but sometimes you just need to say things how they are and be realistic. There's a fine line between dev-bashing and being honest with how an update ships when it is in a state like this. This gives Empyrean and Scarlet Spear a run for their money.

Maybe sometimes people need to be blunt. I won't dipute that, but the point is... If you really thing that Cetus wisp 2.0 and short but mandatory conservation makes this update worse then the release of Empyrean and Scarlet Spear then we are each probably playing a different game.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

28 minutes ago, Voltage said:

.... to zero I hope? Why are you guys forcing players to do conservation to rank-up at all? Will we get our Son Tokens scripted and refunded, or will this be Plains of Eidolons Arcanes 2 where you just shrug it off and say "thanks for being beta testers in our unfinished product"?

They heard our feedback and are making changes. 

I saw this response to you in another thread and thought it was pretty apt: 

" I logged onto the forum for the first time ever specifically to laugh at this. You clearly need to take a break from the forums. Deimos is such a tremendous improvement on the other landscapes in basically every way with a fraction of the launch bugs in comparison I don't even know where to start. The tokens mean you can actually do stuff for standing without having to waste stuff every day. Maybe the single biggest improvement upon the standing system as a whole. Seriously, get back in the game and off the forums, the toxicity of this place has done stuff to your head. Plus, this is a hotfix notes, not the place to soapbox about how an objectively more player-friendly standing system needs to be wholesale removed because you think you speak for the community."

 

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Exaggerating your point doesn't make it any more accurate. You are implying that Heart of Deimos, an update that is largely functional where the issues primarily lie in more minor bugs and economy issues, is worse than Empyrean which was an update that at launch barely worked on top of the economy issues it also had. Honestly you just seem angry that DE are adding more support for gameplay that you, personally, don't like rather than trying to actually address the issues at hand. I do agree about the Scintillants though. Thats awful and needs to be addressed too.

During the quest I restarted the game multiple times due to a door not opening.

There are crashes related to the hidden mech doing Vault runs.

There is a new bug where Vaults just simply aren't working properly anymore.

Softlocks.

Progression Stoppers.

Crashes.

Right, all minor bugs.

Economy problems are a big deal. You are directly toying with player investment, and you can't just give time back later. Players are spending hours upon hours to get Son tokens that are just a result of awful pacing tests for the update.

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

They heard our feedback and are making changes. 

We shouldn't need to spell it out everytime. There's a difference between making a mistake and repeating one. I'm all for giving DE the benefit of the doubt, but not here.

[TheEdIsNotAmused]

Just now, Cerikus said:

Maybe sometimes people need to be blunt. I won't dipute that, but the point is... If you really thing that Cetus wisp 2.0 and short but mandatory conservation makes this update worse then the release of Empyrean and Scarlet Spear then we are each probably playing a different game.

I'd argue the short portion of that.  The Birds have a ludicrously low spawn rate and often spawn in ways inaccessible to the player.  While I assume that's not WAI its still a bit of a problem when it short-circuits progression to a MAJOR component of the update.  I spent Hours looking for those damned birds and they just would not spawn in a manner where one could actually tranq/retreive them.  The way Deimos Conservation launched, intended or otherwise, is in no way short unless RNGesus seriously blessed you in a manner consistent with getting 3 golds in a row on an endless void fissure with no radiants.

That said, this is in no way worse than scarlet spear or the state Empyrean launched in, on that I would wholeheartedly agree.  The problems with this update are largely numerical, not structural or conceptual in the way that Scarlet Spear and Empyrean were.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

During the quest I restarted the game multiple times due to a door not opening.

There are crashes related to the hidden mech doing Vault runs.

There is a new bug where Vaults just simply aren't working properly anymore.

Softlocks.

Progression Stoppers.

Crashes.

Right, all minor bugs.

Economy problems are a big deal. You are directly toying with player investment, and you can't just give time back later. Players are spending hours upon hours to get Son tokens that are just a result of awful pacing tests for the update.

I didn't run into most of these issues. Worst I've encountered was a vault not functioning and the one Corpus sample collecting bounty being impossible to get the bonus objective completed seemingly due to the timer not scaling with number of samples, so I don't know what to tell you. Still seems better than either update you described as being better than this. I would again say you just seem, personally, annoyed that things aren't going your way. Saying that this is worse than Scarlet Spear or Empyrean is nothing short of laughable and its pretty obvious you are saying so for the purposes of exaggeration to try and strengthen your argument.

Also I agree about the economy problem. Its the primary issue with the update right now and I even left a comment saying that its horribly unbalanced. Not sure why you are talking down to me about such an issue when I agree with you. Kind of adding to the whole "you being mad" thing.

"I really dont understand the hate behind conservation being needed for ranking up. Its not like conservation is difficult or takes very long. You need to do it anyways to obtain the new infested companions, and I understand why doing tasks for each family member would contribute to standing lore wise. The issue I have is that conservation doesn't reward the player with enough Son tokens in general. You really should get tokens for successfully completing conservations, not just from trading in tags. The entire economy frankly needs rebalancing with how Mother tokens are objectively the only ones you should ever use for standing currently due to how uncommon the others are in comparison. Grandmothers Oddities are absurdly overpriced for how many of her tokens you need to buy a lot of them, which require in of themselves a lot of tokens that, coincidentally, require seemingly all BUT Mother tokens. If you would just increase the number of tokens obtained from doing the tasks of the other Entrati family members, it would largely fix the problem.

 

Screeching "CONSERVATION BAD. BAD CONSERVATION I DONT WANNA" isn't exactly constructive. You could make the same argument about fishing and mining, but again those don't take long and aren't difficult and, again, you need them for other items you get from the new syndicates anyways. Doesn't seem like a very strong argument and seems like people are just mad that content they personally don't like is being given more support."

[Cerikus]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

During the quest I restarted the game multiple times due to a door not opening.

There are crashes related to the hidden mech doing Vault runs.

There is a new bug where Vaults just simply aren't working properly anymore.

Softlocks.

Progression Stoppers.

Crashes.

Right, all minor bugs.

Economy problems are a big deal. You are directly toying with player investment, and you can't just give time back later. Players are spending hours upon hours to get Son tokens that are just a result of awful pacing tests for the update.

Dude...  I am not going to go full "defend DE for no reason", but you gotta consider everything that's been happening.

The guys were able to put this together for us from home. FROM QUARANTINE.

Also, we know how DE operates, we all know this game is open beta and they will never be able to release bug free content. Give me ONE update that was released bugfree. If you jumped in game 5 mins after release without expecting bugs.. that again  we are each probably playing a different game

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Dude...  I am not going to go full "defend DE for no reason", but you gotta consider everything that's been happening.

The guys were able to put this together for us from home. FROM QUARANTINE.

Also, we know how DE operates, we all know this game is open beta and they will never be able to release bug free content. Give me ONE update that was released bugfree. If you jumped in game 5 mins after release without expecting bugs.. that again  we are each probably playing a different game

Also Empyrean and Scarlet Spear were, objectively, in worse shape at launch than Deimos. In my experience I've had very few bugs overall. Again, worst ones being the vaults being broken, matchmaking temporarily having issues (forgot to mention that one from earlier), and the one Bounty mission with the Corpus sample gathering that needs to be fixed. Oh and the operator Void Dash bug around Necramechs, but that I wouldn't consider a game breaking one. Still needs fixing though. Empyrean and Scarlet Spear though I could barely get to work half the time and to this day I still experience a serious problem in Railjack where the performance tanks when using the Tanguska Cannon (however its spelled). I haven't had any crashes, soft locks, or anything else more severe happen to me while playing Deimos. I realize that me saying I didn't experience them doesn't mean they don't happen, but that's been my experience.

[E.I.G.]

42 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are reducing the number of Son Tokens in a near Hotfix. Thanks all! 

 

That is not why I'm dropping Warframe in favor of other things right now.

Sure, it is a part of the issue, but one of my two big problems in general is a requirement to do conservation to progress here. Not only are Son tokens required, so are tags, with some even in the Segment's crafting recipe.

Animal tags were fine when they were for purely cosmetic rewards, the system was clunky and not very fun but this kind of game means cosmetics require a bit of hoop jumping.
They are not fine for proper progression, where they run into the issue of being one of the more buggy and time consuming systems in the game.

 

The second big problem is the way you get the tokens, which is based on random amounts of too many options. Son is only the worst of these because conservation is so time consuming that there is no worthwhile method to get a good variety. All of the other ones are still bad because unlike the other open worlds there is no fixed value for any of the resources.
Which in practice means that these resources, and thus the time spent gathering them, is worth less than those previous resources.

 

I can't even say this token system is an attempt at improvement overall, because systems to earn standing in advance did exist before. Mining and Fishing in the other two open worlds both allow players to build up a stockpile of resources that can be traded for standing in the same way, and for Fortuna there exists multiple ways to get Debt Bonds to also stockpile, including bounties albeit in a far more limited manner.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

46 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Last time I checked, I installed the free to play space ninja action shooter called Warframe, not fishing simulator or shooting tiny birds out of the sky for time-gated tokens to rankup the dysfunctional Entrati family for some Mastery/completion. There were numerous issues with conservation in both Plains of Eidolion and Orb Vallis over the last few years. That feedback was more than enough to show you conservation is junk.

This is the attitude I'm talking about by the way. This isn't criticism nor is it a proper argument. It's just whining about a specific type of gameplay that you, personally, don't enjoy being a part of the rank up process. Conservation has its issues yeah, especially in Deimos right now with the economy problems, but this screams hating it for merely existing. If conservation, fishing, and mining WEREN'T part of the rank up process in any of these areas, there really wouldn't be a point to them would there? Considering this is a game about gathering resources to further yourself and your equipment. Granted, conservation wasn't part of the rank up process in the past, but I really don't see the issue with it being a part of the new syndicates when there is much more to do in this conservation system than the likes of Plains or the Vallis. If Son tokens were obtained from successful completion of conservations on top of getting them for turning in tags, I think things would be fine (as well as overall adjusting token gains for all but Mother tokens).

[Cerikus]

28 minutes ago, Voltage said:

DE just pushed Cetus Wisps 2.0

btw I just posted this into other thread and I think people don't realize this.

  

Just now, Cerikus said:

Could I suggest one very important thing that NEEDS to be said loudly and clearly.

We currently need 12 Scintillants. ONLY 12.

Yes the droprates are extremely low and yes it's very rare to find them in the ruins, but people need to realize that since we need 12, the droprates are absolutely fine.

People don't realize this, because (and I don't mean this in a bad way) they just don't usually pay attention and feel like it's the end of the world.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

12 minutes ago, Voltage said:

We shouldn't need to spell it out everytime. There's a difference between making a mistake and repeating one. I'm all for giving DE the benefit of the doubt, but not here.

I totally understand. I actually came here from a game I played for 7 years lmao. I begged and begged and tried for a long time. I actually finally got some things changed for the next generation, but it was just time for me to go lol.

I wasn't telling you to leave by the way. I'm just saying the people that make the game are only gonna change so much. They probably have their own list "ok we'll change that" and "we're not changing this" list of their own. We can't do anything about that.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

1 minute ago, Cerikus said:

btw I just posted this into other thread and I think people don't realize this.

  

 

To be fair, you also need them to reliably get Father tokens and to build Xaku and I believe some of the new weapons. Likely components for the Necramechs too. So I think Scintillants are a bigger issue than you make them out to be.

[K-68]

The Sepulcrum blueprints are unlocked at rank 2 in Entrati, Acquantance. Most of the resources you require to craft the weapon are earnable, except for Trapezium Xenorhast, the blueprint for which is purchasable at rank 3, Associate at Otax.

I feel like this is an unintended rank-lock, as I believe that a weapon you unlock the blueprint for at a specific level should be able to be crafted at that specific level, as I now have to wait 2 more days to get rank 3 to craft the weapon. I feel like changing the recipe to requiring Stellated Necrathene, a cut gem you can get at rank 2, would be better.

[nicolajtheking2]

Conservation, mining and fishing NEEDS to be O P T I O N A L not MANDATORY, why? simply because all of those things have NOTHING to do with any other aspect of the syndicates, conservation is nigh impossible due to the nature of diemos, the same goes for fishing, and then there's the CONSTANT interruptions during mining AGAIN due to the nature of diemos, and the tokens? the need to be REMOVED for they serve NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE, outside of ranking up with the syndicates, wich to be fair, only the mother tokens should be eligible for that anyway, all-in-all, conservation bad, NPC necramechs need nerf to electro shield and buff to drops, mining and fishing should be VERY OPTIONAL.

[Cerikus]

2 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

To be fair, you also need them to reliably get Father tokens

I reliably get a loooot of father tokens without them. (more than i need)

2 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

to build Xaku and I believe some of the new weapons. Likely components for the Necramechs too

That's how I figured out the magic number 12.

Once you have more than 12 feel free to dump them at father for extra tokens (which you won't need)

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

2 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I reliably get a loooot of father tokens without them. (more than i need)

That's how I figured out the magic number 12.

Once you have more than 12 feel free to dump them at father for extra tokens (which you won't need)

Issue is though you will probably need them for more things in the future. DE have stated Deimos is getting further big updates in the future with more content.

[Cerikus]

Just now, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Issue is though you will probably need them for more things in the future. DE have stated Deimos is getting further big updates in the future with more content.

I will bet all my platinum that we will get more ways to get them, when we need them. 😉 

The same issue was with toroids when fortuna released. Everybody was complaining and everybody was wrong.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

Just now, Cerikus said:

I will bet all my platinum that we will get more ways to get them, when we need them. 😉 

The same issue was with toroids when fortuna released. Everybody was complaining and everybody was wrong.

I agree about people overreacting about Toroids but Scintillants are an issue NOW. I've done multiple vaults and I have yet to see a single one.