Do NOT use this Necramech mechanic EVER again

[Lichformed]

Damage reflection, DO NOT USE IT

I'm someone who really likes Path of Exile as well as Warframe so this matter is an absolute for me, damage reflection is so bad in a game where your damage outdoes your health by a thousandfold.

There is a boss in Path of Exile that has a 1% damage reflection mechanic and you know what? That 1% is enough to kill any build without immunity to reflection in that game, and the boss does 100% reflection with 4 doppelangangers, too bad a lot of the builds in that game use chaining mechanics meaning you can kill yourself off screen really easily. It's an extremely bad boss design made a long time ago but it's not needed for progression and reflect has not been used in PoE for a long time iirc.

But this is the first time I remember reflect mechanics in Warframe and I'm just here to say that stop and take it out

I just went from 2k shields 1k health on Harrow down to 350-ish hp and a radiation proc. Meaning I can effectively CC and kill my whole squad with my next headshot from my Tombfinger if I played with others. damage reflection is not good, at all, in any game.

Also can we talk about Necramech CC immunity, I do all content on Harrow and Necramechs have one thing that makes soloing them so annoying, you can condemn them twice before they get immunity, not bad you can take out the hands with an ult and use condemn to shoot the back? Well no.

Because Nechramechs are one of those rare enemies that spin around in condemn, so it becomes a wild goose chase at that point. I can work with CC immunity if it was complete from the start and condemn didn't just work, but when it works two times and does not help at all it feels so bad.

But that's a sidenote, but yeah, do not use damage reflection

I don't want to kill or be killed by my squadmates nor do I want to be instakilled by a badly timed shot

[Wolfdoggie]

I been wanting them to remove reflect from Path of Exile since the beginning. It's just not fun nor something I want to deal with which is why I generally play Trap/Mine builds all the time.

 

[vegetosayajin]

I like it like with the rad liches, loved to one shot inaroses and be one shot by them.
One of the missions turned out to be a great pvp mode with a lot of deaths. ^^

[Lichformed]

2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I like it like with the rad liches, loved to one shot inaroses and be one shot by them.
One of the missions turned out to be a great pvp mode with a lot of deaths. ^^

I don't mind radiation as a mechanic as it's clearly shown in game and when I go against a radiation Lich we all know how to play and what could happen.

But damage reflection ends up in an instant kill mechanic for playing optimally and with procs as side effects you can completely wipe out your team by accident. When going against Radiation enemies it's not that accidental when you already play around the mechanic. and when you're solo you can just faceroll through it, random reflection especially with DoT abilities and weapons just causes instakills out of your control.

[CheaseDragon]

I think the damage reflection could be OK if it reflected up to a maximum number per shot and/or didn't cause status effects (or at least problematic ones).

Also/alternatively, I think the damage reflection shouldn't apply to the weak spots on the back and arm holes. They're weak spots. Spots that are weak. Spots that should be vulnerable. Reward me for aiming pls 🙂 

But yea,  the vault necramech is a pain solo since its facing you 90% of the time. Time spent waiting out the reflecto shield is time spent not getting behind it, watching the mech pick all its limbs back up and re-genning all its shields. 😐

[vegetosayajin]

2 minutes ago, CheaseDragon said:

the vault necramech is a pain solo since its facing you 90% of the time.

Am I the only one having a different experience?
I soloed it with excal for the lulz and I wasn't even with the right elements the first time.No deaths(it hit me hard one time but that's it).
 

[CheaseDragon]

5 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

Am I the only one having a different experience?
I soloed it with excal for the lulz and I wasn't even with the right elements the first time.No deaths(it hit me hard one time but that's it).
 

Its not really hard, just a lot of running in a circle. 

It'd be nice if there was a way to distract him or something.

[Lichformed]

1 minute ago, vegetosayajin said:

Am I the only one having a different experience?
I soloed it with excal for the lulz and I wasn't even with the right elements the first time.No deaths(it hit me hard one time but that's it).
 

That's just the classic "Frame for the job" thing, you can faceroll all content if you just bring the right tools, but it doesn't mean the content is good for a base if I can faceroll it with another option. Necramechs are quite easy even without Warframe abilities, just really annoying.

I don't mind Necramechs that much outside damage reflection, it's a mechanic that should not be used ever in a game where 1% reflect is way too much. It works in games where fights are turn based or damage is so low compared to HP you can notice it, but in Warframe it's not good at all.

[BoomyGordo]

Had a similar experience today. shoot the mech till i break its gun arm. it throws on shield, and keeps it on till it reattaches gun arm. This cycle repeated about 5 times before it finally dropped the shield without picking up its gun. I unloaded on its other arm, just spam clicking on it. The instant that arm broke, it used its shield again and my next shot killed me. I just quit after that.

An enemy with invulnerability and good mechanics to work with to get rid of invulnerability is a good thing. An enemy with long periods of invulnerability, that can regen if you dont damage it enough (cant when its ****** invulnerable all the time) is not good. Top that with the fact that i can kill my self without warning because its shield can come up any time and reflect my next shot? anti-fun mechanic.

[vegetosayajin]

1 minute ago, Lichformed said:

That's just the classic "Frame for the job" thing, you can faceroll all content if you just bring the right tools.

I do all new content with the classic excal tbh. The ones that stopped me were eidos and profit spoder.
 

Just now, CheaseDragon said:

Its not really hard, just a lot of running in a circle. 

A lot of people are complaining that they can't beat it, that's why I was wondering.Maybe I'm missing something. XD
 

 

2 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

I don't mind Necramechs that much outside damage reflection, it's a mechanic that should not be used ever in a game where 1% reflect is way too much. It works in games where fights are turn based or damage is so low compared to HP you can notice it, but in Warframe it's not good at all.

It reflects too much because of our weapons yea.
Maybe they should remove it but... wouldn't that get any danger of the fight out?

[CheaseDragon]

1 minute ago, vegetosayajin said:

A lot of people are complaining that they can't beat it, that's why I was wondering.Maybe I'm missing something. XD

I feel you there. I see people complaining new stuff is too hard pretty much every mainline, but most of the time I just assume they aren't geared properly.

I normally stay quiet but this is a weird case where good gear can make you kill yourself faster.

4 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

It reflects too much because of our weapons yea.
Maybe they should remove it but... wouldn't that get any danger of the fight out?

I agree, challenge is good. One-shoting yourself without clear warning is likely an indicator something needs a lil work though.

A wind-up animation for the shield could go a long way. I stand by my 'weak spots should still be vulnerable' stance though.

 

[Lichformed]

5 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I do all new content with the classic excal tbh. The ones that stopped me were eidos and profit spoder.

It reflects too much because of our weapons yea.
Maybe they should remove it but... wouldn't that get any danger of the fight out?

Yes I use Harrow in all content, but I did not say the game is impossible without the correct tools, just that it's facerolling with them.

If us instakilling ourselves is the only real danger in the fight then it's not a good fight in base is it?

If we added damage reflection to all enemies sure the game would be a lot more harder, doable, but not fun at all. Sure I do understand that damage reflection that is a danger to the tankier frames in the game for once, but subjecting all players to it just makes the game objectively bad if you don't play with said frames.

I do like challenging content and Liches are fun to do for me, but I want to stop the use of reflection mechanics here and now, because that's really restrictive, anti-fun and does not have support in a game like this.

[Lichformed]

Just now, CheaseDragon said:

I agree, challenge is good. One-shoting yourself without clear warning is likely an indicator something needs a lil work though.

A wind-up animation for the shield could go a long way. I stand by my 'weak spots should still be vulnerable' stance though.

 

While indicators and clear animations for reflect would go a long way, I still don't think it would work in Warframe with so many AoE and DoT abilities. It's a slippery slope where you can really end up screwed in so many ways.

And let's say there's a new boss with reflect added, and you play with Saryn and her spores, and there happens to be a design overight where you can clip to the other room with the boss inactive but reflect on and you constantly kill yourself by playing the game as intended.

For example Divinity Original Sin 2 has "Shacles of Pain", a 100% damage reflection ability that enemies can use, but as it's a turn based game with builds usually not having damage to kill themselves in one shot except a couple it works well as it's clear and you can play around it.

But in Warframe you can kill yourself with 1% reflect instantly and with a lot of abilities map wide or huge dots it will never work in a way that allows all frames to be used effectively or in a fun way.

[Umbriellan]

Aaaah ! That's why I got so many insta-death : necramechs' damage reflection ...
Okay, I must be d*mb but why it isn't really explained in-game ? (yeah, we got an explanation when you are using Snake-Mecha, but it's a perk "when your using the mechs" not "that you could possibly face & what consequences that could be - as a side note, the "defensive perk" we got on Snake is supposed to create electric damage in contact, but I didn't noticed such damages when facing necramechs).

And just to be noted, maybe that's a bug : when facing Necra with Vauban (300hp, no health-mods)), I died a few times ; but with Nekros (max vitality + adaptation) I died even more - and I think my minions' attacks where reflected on me... something to test.

[(PSN)kadeliza740]

1 hour ago, CheaseDragon said:

Its not really hard, just a lot of running in a circle. 

It'd be nice if there was a way to distract him or something.

So glad I use Wisp, her 2 saved me in those fights. Still hate reflected damage though.

[CheaseDragon]

4 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

While indicators and clear animations for reflect would go a long way, I still don't think it would work in Warframe with so many AoE and DoT abilities. It's a slippery slope where you can really end up screwed in so many ways.

And let's say there's a new boss with reflect added, and you play with Saryn and her spores, and there happens to be a design overight where you can clip to the other room with the boss inactive but reflect on and you constantly kill yourself by playing the game as intended.

For example Divinity Original Sin 2 has "Shacles of Pain", a 100% damage reflection ability that enemies can use, but as it's a turn based game with builds usually not having damage to kill themselves in one shot except a couple it works well as it's clear and you can play around it.

But in Warframe you can kill yourself with 1% reflect instantly and with a lot of abilities map wide or huge dots it will never work in a way that allows all frames to be used effectively or in a fun way.

Yes, this is certainly a mechanic that needs to be used carefully like a strong spice. Kinda funny how they added it after removing self damage from weapons.

Mechanics like this create weird cases where you have abilities that don't work as expected and you end up having to learn all the interactions the hard way.

I certainly wouldn't want to see it on anything more common than bosses and mini bosses. 

[CheaseDragon]

22 minutes ago, Umbriellan said:

 we got on Snake is supposed to create electric damage in contact, but I didn't noticed such damages when facing necramechs).

Yea. That bothered me too. Its not really "as advertised" with regards to what we were set up to expect previously.

My first death against the necramech went something like:

"oh cool its using the shield snake had. Better not melee it or it'll electrocute me" *shoots gun, dies* "OH NO"

[(PSN)robotwars7]

damage reflect has always been in the game, or did everyone forget about the Mag Junction Specter? Bullet Attractor is basically reflecting, except instead of using it on yourself, the enemy does everything for you. 

also, great rule of thumb I use in every game: if it looks like it's got a shield over it, be sure to MOVE while shooting: then if the shot reflects back at you, it'll miss. you should always be moving anyway really, that's like combat 101..

[DrakeWurrum]

I feel like damage reflect wouldn't be bad if the mechanic were obvious enough that you look at what just happened and go "Oh, okay, I shouldn't shoot that."

But in a horde shooter, that doesn't work. Really only works with "big bad" fights.

Also, what the guy said above me holds true: learn to shoot while moving. There's lots of great mods for it, too!

[Cloud]

58 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

Damage reflection, DO NOT USE IT

I'm someone who really likes Path of Exile as well as Warframe so this matter is an absolute for me, damage reflection is so bad in a game where your damage outdoes your health by a thousandfold.

There is a boss in Path of Exile that has a 1% damage reflection mechanic and you know what? That 1% is enough to kill any build without immunity to reflection in that game, and the boss does 100% reflection with 4 doppelangangers, too bad a lot of the builds in that game use chaining mechanics meaning you can kill yourself off screen really easily. It's an extremely bad boss design made a long time ago but it's not needed for progression and reflect has not been used in PoE for a long time iirc.

But this is the first time I remember reflect mechanics in Warframe and I'm just here to say that stop and take it out

I just went from 2k shields 1k health on Harrow down to 350-ish hp and a radiation proc. Meaning I can effectively CC and kill my whole squad with my next headshot from my Tombfinger if I played with others. damage reflection is not good, at all, in any game.

Also can we talk about Necramech CC immunity, I do all content on Harrow and Necramechs have one thing that makes soloing them so annoying, you can condemn them twice before they get immunity, not bad you can take out the hands with an ult and use condemn to shoot the back? Well no.

Because Nechramechs are one of those rare enemies that spin around in condemn, so it becomes a wild goose chase at that point. I can work with CC immunity if it was complete from the start and condemn didn't just work, but when it works two times and does not help at all it feels so bad.

But that's a sidenote, but yeah, do not use damage reflection

I don't want to kill or be killed by my squadmates nor do I want to be instakilled by a badly timed shot

I don't think reflect damage is bad as a whole. It forces you to pay attention and play more carefully. Sure it could use some adjustment as it was suggested in other posts, capping max damage, and not applying on weak spots.

Also I think that mobile defense targets or excavators should be immune to friendly fire from radiation. That should be imperative.

[Lichformed]

1 hour ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

damage reflect has always been in the game, or did everyone forget about the Mag Junction Specter? Bullet Attractor is basically reflecting, except instead of using it on yourself, the enemy does everything for you. 

also, great rule of thumb I use in every game: if it looks like it's got a shield over it, be sure to MOVE while shooting: then if the shot reflects back at you, it'll miss. you should always be moving anyway really, that's like combat 101..

The thing with Mag is that you know the enemy when you see it and you most likely one shot it before the ability goes off.

And the Necramech damage isn't reflected bullets it's mirrored damage, moving around won't help at all, you can kill yourself while on the other side of a wall.

[Lichformed]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

I don't think reflect damage is bad as a whole. It forces you to pay attention and play more carefully. Sure it could use some adjustment as it was suggested in other posts, capping max damage, and not applying on weak spots.

Also I think that mobile defense targets or excavators should be immune to friendly fire from radiation. That should be imperative.

It's not bad as a concept yes, but it can't be implemented in Warframe as a mechanic in a way that a playstyle doesn't get screwed.

Capped damage? DoTs still melt you.

Not applying on weak spots? My Tombfinger has a slight aoe clipping to the shield and I can't shoot at the backpack safely without the shield going off so I need to wait extra

It's just much easier to not bother with the mechanic at all from a design standpoint.

And for me a solo Harrow player who's used to very exact timing and freedom of dealing damage having a boss say "lol you can't shoot me" screws over my whole tempo and restricts my equipment selection really bad when a lot of other frames can just S#&$ on the mechanic.

Reflect done right can be fun, but again Warframe is not a game where the numbers support it and it's build restrictive on a whole another level.

[Cloud]

Just now, Lichformed said:

It's not bad as a concept yes, but it can't be implemented in Warframe as a mechanic in a way that a playstyle doesn't get screwed.

Capped damage? DoTs still melt you.

Not applying on weak spots? My Tombfinger has a slight aoe clipping to the shield and I can't shoot at the backpack safely without the shield going off so I need to wait extra

It's just much easier to not bother with the mechanic at all from a design standpoint.

And for me a solo Harrow player who's used to very exact timing and freedom of dealing damage having a boss say "lol you can't shoot me" screws over my whole tempo and restricts my equipment selection really bad when a lot of other frames can just S#&$ on the mechanic.

Reflect done right can be fun, but again Warframe is not a game where the numbers support it and it's build restrictive on a whole another level.

New or different enemies have the exact purpose of letting you experience new kinds of approaches. An enemy which is viable to every approach is not a threat whatsoever. 

And while dots represents a danger, they can stil be reasonably countered especially with caps. An high burst damage, instead is a different matter even with shield gating.

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, CheaseDragon said:

It'd be nice if there was a way to distract him or something.

You must become a matador, obviously. 

What you do is you dress up in red before entering the mission (painful red, you know the sort, the one that makes your eyes water), you shoot the mech's arms off and then take a few steps back towards a wall and start shaking your frame all over the place.

Enraged by the visual display, the mech will be unable to hold itself back, and will launch itself at you (which you will swiftly dodge) and become temporarily distracted by the wall behind you. During this time you must yell "no one expects the Spanish Inquisition" and unload your entire magazine into the back of it.
Simple distraction 101. You can do all of that without the dress up and yelling, but it's not nearly as fun.

[0_The_F00l]

I just think the % reflection should be manageable or tweaked.

granted, 1% when we can do a million damage is kinda gonna be difficult to scale right.

 

i DO NOT WANT REMOVED. i want it tweaked to be manageable. I also dislike the fact that i have to wait half a minute cause the mech is completely invulnerable.