Is it possible to convince DE un-nerf the Helminth?

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Let's slowly buff/rework other abilities and let ROARs be ROARs (Larva, Warcry, Dispensary, etc) and try to compete with it by revisiting the weak skills - this will be good for every frame.


I understand this is a job to do, but lots of folks will appreciate it.

[Loza03]

Weak skills will always be weak for as long as resource management is broken. As long as all abilities are equivalent in availability, output will be the only variable considered.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

all helminth viable skills could at least be reworked in a quality of life skills or some buffs in a laziest way.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Wont happen.

They were adjusted because they were stronger Subsumed onto some frames than they were on their original frames. Mixed with powers they weren't originally built to be mixed with. Thats not balance, thats literally creating an imbalance within the game and forcing people to play as Frame (X) with Ability (Y).

[Famecans]

I think the ammo efficiency skill is bad, it’s not reaching 100%, we’re exchanging energy for time and we still lose seconds reloading, it’s more rewarding to use a reload arcane and save energy for another skill

this ability would synergize with damage frames and many weapons were going to shine but do you know why DE doesn't maximize to 100%? AoE and High damage weapons, kuva brahma, tonkor, exergis, tigris ...

too much equipment losing its luster due to lack of egalitarian balance

[(NSW)Gamma83]

Il y a 1 heure, Scar.brother.help.me a dit :

Let's slowly buff/rework other abilities and let ROARs be ROARs (Larva, Warcry, Dispensary, etc) and try to compete with it by revisiting the weak skills - this will be good for every frame.


I understand this is a job to do, but lots of folks will appreciate it.

in my honest opinion those 4 skills you said , along with eclipse are among the best skill you can put on your frame for general build.  (though many other skills are great of course, like hyldrin pillage)
If you were to make them even stronger all other helminth option would fall even more behind.

i can still make a decent 50%+ roar on general build , and 50%+ roar is still a lot considering roar can stack with other roar (of other players) and that roar is the only buff that affect abilities damage. (frost , saryn etc..)

If you were to un-nerf those skill when they are already overpowered as it is compared to many other , i wonder how much you would have to buff every warframe abilities to make them on par with them.
actually for most of them you'd have to change their effects.

Having nerfed those skills in helminth isn't by any means a bad decision in my opinion considering that they are still the most used helminth skill despite that nerf.
But it was simply made poorly, they should have decided to nerf them before introducing what helminth is, that way some people wouldn't feel let down by that.

Rather than "un-nerfing" those since they are already almost too strong as is compared to others abilities , they should first and foremost improve the other abilities, especially the unique abilities to the helminth system.
I'am not saying to bring back mark for death to it's former OP state, but to to make it a bit more relevant.
And same goes for every other helminth abilities (ammo efficiency etc...)
Except maybe the infested mobility buff one which is fine as is probably.

 

[(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg]

I've recently got Helminth and after some looking, inspecting, thinking about abilities (4 months ain;t making me expert ya know :D). I started thinking if those nerfs before release were really justified or a bit of a premature overkill. Maybe I'd put my thoughts and "feels" in separate thread. Still somehwat I believe at least a bit of "let's see what happens, before we make our judgement was better idea".

I do think Roar and the Warcry might have been justified (I haven't played Mirage don't know about her). Not so sure about the rest. Was the max amount of armour you get from Defy that huge of difference? Dispensary as one of few (2 that I know of) abilities that can be used as energy generator, suffers because curretnly you'd get 2 orbs. So unless you invest at least 200 duration to make it as it is by default it feels underwelming. On that matter Garas 3rd and Augment is the other variant for that sweet blue energy. I would've loved if Trinity instead of the shoot to heal ability gotten the energy one. It would've been appealing, it would've make for so much versatility in other frames or build paths - maybe too much and op op - but at least it would've given you desire to do it. Larva I get to a degree, big crowd control, but still :(. Will see if in time there might be some reverse.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Wont happen.

They were adjusted because they were stronger Subsumed onto some frames than they were on their original frames. Mixed with powers they weren't originally built to be mixed with. Thats not balance, thats literally creating an imbalance within the game and forcing people to play as Frame (X) with Ability (Y).

They were adjusted because people were “too interested” in using them over abilities like decoy and Mind Control.

If DE has an actual concern over the power of those abilities they wouldn’t have chosen them for Helminth in the first place.

[Tiltskillet]

I was thinking about this recently again.  I realized it probably would have worked out much better if DE had initially announced that -all- subsumed abilities would be somewhat weaker than their base versions.   Then they could have eased up on the nerfs on most of them, and avoided most of the poopstorm.

Anyway, I'm sure they're looking closely at the usage numbers for each ability, and I hope we get to see them.  If a nerfed ability still has very high usage, no, like it or not, I don't think it'll be possible to convince DE to un-nerf them.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

22 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Weak skills will always be weak for as long as resource management is broken. As long as all abilities are equivalent in availability, output will be the only variable considered.

Decoy isn't bad because of resource management or because other options are better.  It's bad because it barely functions as intended, doesn't accomplish much when it does work as intended, and doesn't serve much of a role in the state of the current game.  It's pointless on Loki's kit outside of switch teleporting in spy vaults since he's invisible anyway.  It only alerts enemies that see it, when you could leave them all unalerted.  This can even happen in spy vaults.  In regard to its function with Switch, it is literally only serving as a teleport beacon for another niche ability that has extremely limited utility for the majority of content.  Decoy and Switch Teleport can be used for spy vaults and shortening the drone phase on plains bounties.  I can't think of another rational use for those outside just thematics.  You could literally stick both of them into the same skill with tap/hold functions and it would still be mediocre.  Of all the high level content I've run with Loki, I've only ever needed or used his 2 and 4.  Nothing about the availability of other abilities makes them bad.  You could argue it makes them worse in a relative sense because you can now replace one of them, but I wouldn't be replacing one of them if they weren't bad.

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Decoy isn't bad because of resource management or because other options are better.  It's bad because it barely functions as intended, doesn't accomplish much when it does work as intended, and doesn't serve much of a role in the state of the current game.  It's pointless on Loki's kit outside of switch teleporting in spy vaults since he's invisible anyway.  It only alerts enemies that see it, when you could leave them all unalerted.  This can even happen in spy vaults.  In regard to its function with Switch, it is literally only serving as a teleport beacon for another niche ability that has extremely limited utility for the majority of content.  Decoy and Switch Teleport can be used for spy vaults and shortening the drone phase on plains bounties.  I can't think of another rational use for those outside just thematics.  You could literally stick both of them into the same skill with tap/hold functions and it would still be mediocre.  Of all the high level content I've run with Loki, I've only ever needed or used his 2 and 4.  Nothing about the availability of other abilities makes them bad.  You could argue it makes them worse in a relative sense because you can now replace one of them, but I wouldn't be replacing one of them if they weren't bad.

This specific case, fair. These are valid criticisms against Decoy, and good reason for it to be buffed. However, this doesn't change the fact that several other powers have counterparts that are mechanically and numerically superior in every capacity for what is functionally, or are systemically broken.

Why ever use a single-target damaging ability when another does more damage, to more enemies, and the cost difference is negligible because resource management is whack?

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

They were adjusted because people were “too interested” in using them over abilities like decoy and Mind Control.

If DE has an actual concern over the power of those abilities they wouldn’t have chosen them for Helminth in the first place.

There was a lot of talk on the Forums at the time this was announced about how much the Forums itself affected this. Which should have been recognized as what it was, talk/opinion, but was confused for something worse, Fact. Internal Testing, disclosed by DE in the announcement posts and posts preceding it, were the main reason for the changes. That was pretty clear from the beginning, until people started "assuming" details and spreading Opinions as Facts. None of which had even a morsel of evidence behind it.

If you have any details though showing it was completely down to Forum Chat, i'm open to seeing it.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This specific case, fair. These are valid criticisms against Decoy, and good reason for it to be buffed. However, this doesn't change the fact that several other powers have counterparts that are mechanically and numerically superior in every capacity for what is functionally, or are systemically broken.

Why ever use a single-target damaging ability when another does more damage, to more enemies, and the cost difference is negligible because resource management is whack?

In the cases where there's more than one ability that does basically the same thing in Helminth specifically, Making those abilities differ mechanically (Larva pulls to cast point, Ensnare pulls to targeted enemy), and then buffing the bad/worse ones will not break anything.  There are very few abilities like Roar, and it being strong doesn't invalidate a CC ability or Defensive ability.  It doesn't even completely invalidate other damage buffing options, considering the new niche builds that players are finding.  I haven't put roar onto a single frame yet.  It has nothing to do with it being nerfed, or not wanting to bump the stat numbers for DE's nerf spreadsheet.  It's boring.  I can take down Steel Path Demos, I have plenty of damage.  The only time I have damage issues is when DE mechanically invalidates the damage options I have equipped.  I have put crowd control, squad support or enemy debuffs on every frame I've altered so far.  Roar breaks nothing.  It's just damage, and we have that in spades.

The only thing I can see Roar really effecting heavily is Eidolons.  Arcanes come from Eidolons and the Arcane market is still pretty big plat.  The only reason to nerf Roar is either an incredibly surface level understanding of game mechanics making them believe that Roar is the end all be all and must be stopped, or because they don't want people getting any faster with Eidolons.

Unlike OP though, I care far more about them buffing the other abilities and not nerfing any more abilities than I do about them un-nerfing the ones they hit already.  There's a pretty simple solutions to making most of those abilities great choices without breaking them or anything else, and I would much rather they focus on that than nerfing more or even un-nerfing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

There was a lot of talk on the Forums at the time this was announced about how much the Forums itself affected this. Which should have been recognized as what it was, talk/opinion, but was confused for something worse, Fact. Internal Testing, disclosed by DE in the announcement posts and posts preceding it, were the main reason for the changes. That was pretty clear from the beginning, until people started "assuming" details and spreading Opinions as Facts. None of which had even a morsel of evidence behind it.

If you have any details though showing it was completely down to Forum Chat, i'm open to seeing it.

I think you need to re read the nerf post. Internal testing AND community reaction were to 2 stated reasons they nerfed those abilities.

And considering the fact that the nerfs did absolutely nothing to change the end results of what players did. It only makes sense to just undo the nerfs. Because it’s just this giant elephant in the room that makes everyone skeptical and concerned over what DEs intentions are for the Helminth system. Because right now the only message we’ve effectively gotten from them is “We’re only going to keep nerfing Helminth abilities”. We got that from the pre nerfs and the devstream where they went over Helminth statistics.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2020-11-10 at 6:23 PM, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

There was a lot of talk on the Forums at the time this was announced about how much the Forums itself affected this. Which should have been recognized as what it was, talk/opinion, but was confused for something worse, Fact. Internal Testing, disclosed by DE in the announcement posts and posts preceding it, were the main reason for the changes. That was pretty clear from the beginning, until people started "assuming" details and spreading Opinions as Facts. None of which had even a morsel of evidence behind it.

If you have any details though showing it was completely down to Forum Chat, i'm open to seeing it.

The things they picked to nerf were exactly the same as the top choices for helminth abilities listed in a video made by a popular partner.  So a lot of people made a very logical conclusion that this person who has effected game mechanics in the past with suggestions (as have several of the old partners) effected their choices again when they picked his top picks as the abilities to nerf.  

That they nerfed Larva but did not nerf Ensnare, which do nearly the same thing, further suggests this.  If "internal testing" showed larva being very strong and a top pick, there is no way that testing didn't show the same thing for ensnare.

[Loza03]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

In the cases where there's more than one ability that does basically the same thing in Helminth specifically, Making those abilities differ mechanically (Larva pulls to cast point, Ensnare pulls to targeted enemy), and then buffing the bad/worse ones will not break anything.  There are very few abilities like Roar, and it being strong doesn't invalidate a CC ability or Defensive ability.  It doesn't even completely invalidate other damage buffing options, considering the new niche builds that players are finding.  I haven't put roar onto a single frame yet.  It has nothing to do with it being nerfed, or not wanting to bump the stat numbers for DE's nerf spreadsheet.  It's boring.  I can take down Steel Path Demos, I have plenty of damage.  The only time I have damage issues is when DE mechanically invalidates the damage options I have equipped.  I have put crowd control, squad support or enemy debuffs on every frame I've altered so far.  Roar breaks nothing.  It's just damage, and we have that in spades.

The only thing I can see Roar really effecting heavily is Eidolons.  Arcanes come from Eidolons and the Arcane market is still pretty big plat.  The only reason to nerf Roar is either an incredibly surface level understanding of game mechanics making them believe that Roar is the end all be all and must be stopped, or because they don't want people getting any faster with Eidolons.

Unlike OP though, I care far more about them buffing the other abilities and not nerfing any more abilities than I do about them un-nerfing the ones they hit already.  There's a pretty simple solutions to making most of those abilities great choices without breaking them or anything else, and I would much rather they focus on that than nerfing more or even un-nerfing.

I see your point, but the problem then becomes 'how do you buff THESE abilities without making them become the new meta picks that causes everyone to ignore everything else,'. The options to help the individual abilities might be simple, but the line between 'good pick' and 'best pick' is far too thin. I mean - how on earth do you make a CC frame better than Limbo? Limbo can render absolute crowd control, with no limitation, on any affected enemy, and be completely invulnerable to every enemy not affected by said crowd control. The only possible way is perhaps giving a new frame more range than Limbo, but at that point you might as well not enable the AI. Anything less, though, and that frame's going to be a hard sell (which CC only already is in the current state of the game), so you'll need to give them something else. But that's happened a bunch of times too, and if they don't really excel in any of those, then the frame's probably not going to stand out.

Its too fine of a line, and that kind of comes down to the fact that frames (and to a lesser extent) weapons are expected to be able to perform at peak capacity 100% of the time thanks to how loose and generous the resource economies are. So the amount of output they achieve at that peak is pretty much the only variable. More in-depth resource management offers more nuance.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, Loza03 said:

the line between 'good pick' and 'best pick' is far too thin.

There is almost always a best pick.  The only way this doesn't happen is when top end gear is all statistically the same with just different cosmetic options.  That's been used in a handful of games, but it has its drawbacks as well.  

 

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

how on earth do you make a CC frame better than Limbo?

For pure CC and nothing else, you don't.  You create options and picks based on preference by giving other mechanics to other frames.  Limbo is the best pick for Excavation and Mobile Defense but other CC frames are just as useful as he is in anything but Steel Path versions of those missions (where he is the undisputed king.) but other frames bring other utility to the table like multiple types of CC or also having DPS or team buffs.  As far as just looking at CC (which his is still easily shut down by nullifiers, maybe even easier than other frames depending on modding) he is the meta pick, the top of the class.  But the existence of other viable options that also offer other things means that even though he's the best, you don't see him any more than you see other CC frames in regular play.  That's the same concept I'm talking about with Helminth.  For pure DPS Roar is king of the Helminth picks.  I have been given a Roar buff once in pubs.  I've seen several dozen other frames using other abilities though.  Mostly utility and CC.  Giving a DPS frame CC abilities even if not as good as Limbo can make them the preferred pick for many players.  Something being the "best" pick like Limbo being the best CC frame, doesn't mean they will get used more than other similar picks.  It just means you have options.

I don't think any of that is a solid argument for less power usage and stricter ability resources.  I hate that idea.  The abilities and movement are the thing that make this game stand out over other TPS games.  Limiting either of those things drastically lowers this game's appeal over other games to myself and players like me, since without those things Warframe would be a disgustingly generic TPS.  I remember limited abilities when I was a new player and energy was scarce because no Zenurik and no Energize.  I hated the energy economy with a flaming passion.  It was atrocious and awful and the absolute opposite of fun for me.  The vast majority of abilities in this game are not strong enough to be limited by low energy economy.  And for many frames, high energy economy and constant use of powers is how they stay alive.  I cannot imagine running Mag, or even Mesa through high level content while having to use abilities sparingly.  The whole game after the basic starchart would have to be rebalanced and I trust them to do that properly about as much as I trust them to do a nuanced energy economy properly.

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There is almost always a best pick.  The only way this doesn't happen is when top end gear is all statistically the same with just different cosmetic options.  That's been used in a handful of games, but it has its drawbacks as well.  

True, yes, a numerically best option will always exist, but usually, that 'numerically best' isn't like Warframe, where a bare handful gameplay styles apply across damn near every form of content enabling a minimal form of engagement, which is where we're at now. Most games also manage by having less powerful options be more available, thereby giving both value. For example - Magnum vs Shotgun vs Sniper in Halo. All three are high-damage options against unshielded and unarmoured targets, but the Magnum is a reliable pick with a lot of Ammo, but the lowest overall power, the shotgun necessitates you get close, and the sniper underperforms at close range. In Warframe, being the best means you can oneshot everything within a 50 metre radius or higher.

'The best nuker' or 'the best CC' is a much higher-stakes situation than most games.

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

For pure CC and nothing else, you don't.  You create options and picks based on preference by giving other mechanics to other frames.  Limbo is the best pick for Excavation and Mobile Defense but other CC frames are just as useful as he is in anything but Steel Path versions of those missions (where he is the undisputed king.) but other frames bring other utility to the table like multiple types of CC or also having DPS or team buffs.  As far as just looking at CC (which his is still easily shut down by nullifiers, maybe even easier than other frames depending on modding) he is the meta pick, the top of the class.  But the existence of other viable options that also offer other things means that even though he's the best, you don't see him any more than you see other CC frames in regular play.  That's the same concept I'm talking about with Helminth.  For pure DPS Roar is king of the Helminth picks.  I have been given a Roar buff once in pubs.  I've seen several dozen other frames using other abilities though.  Mostly utility and CC.  Giving a DPS frame CC abilities even if not as good as Limbo can make them the preferred pick for many players.  Something being the "best" pick like Limbo being the best CC frame, doesn't mean they will get used more than other similar picks.  It just means you have options.

I already talk about this. Now you're running the risk of adding  something which either lacks any kind of mechanical identity, or worse, manages to outperform multiple dedicated frames at their jobs, which takes away their identity. When something's either 'the best' or not, and when that title means 'can dominate everything in the entire game'.

Also, nullifiers aren't a good counter for Limbo. They certainly do the job, but the fact that everything that isn't a nullifier (or arbitrarily immune) is getting steamrolled, so everything that's supposed to have any value as an encounter itself needs to be one of the two, is indication that it's the ability that's broken.

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I don't think any of that is a solid argument for less power usage and stricter ability resources.  I hate that idea.  The abilities and movement are the thing that make this game stand out over other TPS games.  Limiting either of those things drastically lowers this game's appeal over other games to myself and players like me, since without those things Warframe would be a disgustingly generic TPS.  I remember limited abilities when I was a new player and energy was scarce because no Zenurik and no Energize.  I hated the energy economy with a flaming passion.  It was atrocious and awful and the absolute opposite of fun for me.  The vast majority of abilities in this game are not strong enough to be limited by low energy economy.  And for many frames, high energy economy and constant use of powers is how they stay alive.  I cannot imagine running Mag, or even Mesa through high level content while having to use abilities sparingly.  The whole game after the basic starchart would have to be rebalanced and I trust them to do that properly about as much as I trust them to do a nuanced energy economy properly.

This is a false dichotomy. That the only options are 'use abilities rarely' and 'ability use has functionally no limit'. I would, in fact, agree that the current base energy is indeed atrocious, and that the majority of abilities are not strong enough to be limited by a low energy economy. But what is also true is that there are some abilities that are too strong to be given no energy economy. Fixing it means doing so for both problems. It's why I'm not spamming out 'remove Energising dash and pizzas'.

My ideal energy economy would lean into that. In addition to reworking energy orbs to be performance-based (sniper headshots, multi-kills, so on and so forth), most frames also get some form of energy or resource economy built-in similar to Nidus, or indeed Limbo. Ember benefiting from burning enemies up with her 1 and 3 rather than her 4, for example. I'd also reduce costs on weaker powers to boot, maybe even to free in certain cases. Smaller powers should remain highly available. There's nothing wrong with Gauss going fast, Wukong having his Clone or Ash teleporting around without a care in the world. What causes issues is when powers that are (or would be, were stronger/more direct paths not available) incredibly impactful being just as available that problems arise. As you point out, Loki can basically wander around without any enemy ever aggro-ing to him. Which is pretty much the same deal as Limbo, except Limbo can apply it to other frames and defence objectives.

Nuance is the answer. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The things they picked to nerf were exactly the same as the top choices for helminth abilities listed in a video made by a popular partner.  So a lot of people made a very logical conclusion that this person who has effected game mechanics in the past with suggestions (as have several of the old partners) effected their choices again when they picked his top picks as the abilities to nerf.  

That they nerfed Larva but did not nerf Ensnare, which do nearly the same thing, further suggests this.  If "internal testing" showed larva being very strong and a top pick, there is no way that testing didn't show the same thing for ensnare, unless the people doing the testing were completely incompetent and had very limited game knowledge.

Right, and i'd actually be agreeing with that logical conclusion except for one minor detail. There was far more than just 1 video posted about Top Power lists, and except for 1 or 2 variations, they pretty much matched. If everyone was coming to these "logical conclusions" then how is it that nobody used that same logic to ask why the lists were so similar in the 1st place? Or why they also matched lists that were posted on here. Logic dictates that if all Powers, in one way or another, were equally valuable, then the statistical probability of those lists being as similar as they were is astronomical.

If i'm being honest i can't really agree that too much logic was used to come to those conclusions. Anyone in the world can take a "Fact" and twist it to suit a purpose. If Logic were being used then it would have left the "its being changed because of X Y Z" route, and even just 1 person would have brought it back to "Well why are the same powers showing up everywhere".

The existence of all these lists and the similarity between them already shows what the Devs would have tested. Shows exactly what everyone knew and yet were trying to deny, that certain powers would have been more useful/stronger than others. Keep in mind too that QA testing for new systems would usually take place months before something is even announced. Usually 2-3 months minimum. They most likely already had the data there ready to be reviewed before the very first Video or Forum post was published about it. Thats of course a "Guesstimate" at best, i've no internal knowledge of DE at all, but right now theres just as much of a chance that's the truth as there is that DE permanently modified powers based on 1 single video. Or on Forum posts.

As for Larva/Ensnare, personally i think theres a clear winner there outside of subsuming. Admittedly its been a long while since i played Khora, but from what i remember Ensnare is a Single Target power that will then spread out to other enemies after a delay with dimishing CC effects on the extra enemies. Larva pulls and ragdolls a bunch of enemies all at once as long as they're in range. Unless Ensnare has been changed recently, which is possible, then at best i'd say those 2 powers at base are 40% similar. Im pretty sure Ensnares base duration is twice that of Larva too, as well as coming with a damage multiplier that Larva does not possess. They both have strengths and weaknesses but i personally couldn't call them close-to similar at all.

[Bakaguya-sama]

Again with this...  i thought we were done arguing about the helminth nerfs months ago.  

It not about Roar vs Decoy.  Some abilities will be good and some of them will be useless, regardless of nerfs or buffs (how do you even buff Decoy lol). This is natural in a pool of like 50+ abilities. Ya can't cherry pick the best and the worst abilities and ignore the rest of the pool exist.  

Its about Roar vs Fireblast vs Pillage vs Xata's Whisper vs Nourish. The Roar nerf is just enough to make other dps boosting abilities viable options. Like you would think Xaku's 1 is strictly worst than Roar, but turns out some people were able to find extremely powerful synergy with Excalibur or Exergis. Or Pillage, which is the perfect mix of offensive and defensive utility. See my point? As opposed to being universally the best, the Roar nerfs open up a huge variety and trade offs for players looking to boost their damage. Some abilities are better depending on how you build and what you are looking for.    

Not sayin that some abilities don't need to be buffed. But the nerfs was fine and there's no reason to revert it. 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

Evidence kind of doesn't help this.

Roar, even in its nerfed form, was literally the most used Warframe ability in the Helminth system. While some of the Helminth skills were used more, because they were inbuilt into the thing and didn't require Subsuming a frame, DE's own data showed that Roar was the go-to for players, even after the nerfs.

Roar, Eclipse, Larva, Dispensary, all of the abilities that were pre-nerfed hit the top 10 of all abilities Subsumed onto other frames. Specifically because the abilities available are literally not equal. Even other damage abilities, like Oberon's Smite (with the Augment for Eidolon fighting) was not used anywhere near as much. Abilities that we thought would be big, like Rest and Rage, are niche.

The abilities that were buffed specifically for this, like Well of Life (which is actually quite a good healing cast now, were it not for Blessing) and Banish (which is amazing for solo play on missions where controlling enemies is more important than killing) are not used because they're just not as good as mechanical damage increases, mechanical sources of health, energy and ammo or radial crowd control.

These, along with things like Ensnare, Breach Surge, Pillage and Fire Blast, are mechanically strong enough that there's very little reason to use anything else.

As a point, guess why DE are buffing frames like Chroma and Zephyr in the next update? It's because these are the frames with the most replaced abilities. Chroma's Spectral Scream was replace every. single. time. Players put literally anything else on their Chroma. Zephyr had Airburst and Tornado replaced every time. People who play that frame (like me) know what her weakest kit is, and dumped it immediately when we were able to get a better option. (Actually, fun fact, if you put Ensnare and the Funnel Clouds augment on Zephyr, you can use the combo to nuke. It's genuinely fun to have that option on a niche build for the bird for once. I don't use it unless I want to meme, but it's there.)

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2020-11-10 at 3:34 PM, Loza03 said:

I already talk about this.

No, what you did is miss my point by focusing on your own.  Limbo being the "best" doesn't mean anything because other options still get picked just as much, if not more for the same content.  Your point of Limbo invalidating everything only proved the point I was making that him being the best doesn't mean he's the only pick people will make.  We pick other options for a dozen reasons, and it's the same with weapons and other gear.  It's the same with Helminth.  Roar is the best pure DPS option.  That doesn't mean it's the only pick just because it's top of the pile.  And based on my use, the use I've seen in my alliance, and the use I've seen in pub games, Roar is hardly ever picked and I'd wager because it's boring.  Nerfing it did not take it off the top of the pile, and not nerfing it would not make the other abilities any worse than they are or aren't.

 

On 2020-11-10 at 3:34 PM, Loza03 said:

This is a false dichotomy.

It's not at all, when you factor in the way DE works.  Show me nuance anywhere in this game on the level you're talking about and we can keep having this discussion.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

No, what you did is miss my point by focusing on your own.  Limbo being the "best" doesn't mean anything because other options still get picked just as much, if not more for the same content.  Your point of Limbo invalidating everything only proved the point I was making that him being the best doesn't mean he's the only pick people will make.  We pick other options for a dozen reasons, and it's the same with weapons and other gear.  It's the same with Helminth.  Roar is the best pure DPS option.  That doesn't mean it's the only pick just because it's top of the pile.  And based on my use, the use I've seen in my alliance, and the use I've seen in pub games, Roar is hardly ever picked and I'd wager because it's boring.  Nerfing it did not take it off the top of the pile, and not nerfing it would not make the other abilities any worse than they are or aren't.

1: Roar is the most-infused ability from the Subsume list, about twice as frequently used as every other subsumed ability. Only the Helminth-own abilities are stronger (with Empower being available right from the word go being the most-infused). After that, War Cry, Larva, Eclipse and Smite are the next-most often consumed - all of which are the 'best' options in their field.

2: Doesn't matter, as far as design goes. You have to assume players aren't going to intentionally maximise their engagement (since, quite frankly they won't. Remember Scarlet Spear?), you have to assume they're going to maximise power. And 'maximised power' is... to ignore the game entirely. If we could assume that players would do things exclusively for fun, then frankly, we wouldn't be having that conversation, but as the old addage goes 'players will optimise the fun out of your game'.

3: I would advise not trying the whole 'you're missing my point by focusing on your own' if you yourself are omitting large chunks of text and entire points in your responses.

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It's not at all, when you factor in the way DE works.  Show me nuance anywhere in this game on the level you're talking about and we can keep having this discussion.

I don't see the logic here. If my point is 'Warframe's issue is it lacks nuance'... then it follows that there are few, if any good examples of nuance in the game, and I think that's a problem.

I could point out examples of nuance in other games, if you want? I can't imagine it'd be a very interesting list though. Most games already give weapons like shotguns a lower maximum ammo reserve and have stronger abilities be more resource-intensive or have longer cooldowns. It's not exactly like Warframe is the norm for giving players nukes all the time, after all.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-11-10 at 6:40 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The things they picked to nerf were exactly the same as the top choices for helminth abilities listed in a video made by a popular partner.  So a lot of people made a very logical conclusion that this person who has effected game mechanics in the past with suggestions (as have several of the old partners) effected their choices again when they picked his top picks as the abilities to nerf.  

That they nerfed Larva but did not nerf Ensnare, which do nearly the same thing, further suggests this.  If "internal testing" showed larva being very strong and a top pick, there is no way that testing didn't show the same thing for ensnare.

Creators are not responsible for DEs bad decisions.

They should not be creating an environment of “If you show off something cool it will get nerfed”.

[Oorel]

I think its actually fine as it is. 

That they added Roar and Warcry was genuinely shocking at the time, even if they are less powerful subsumed they are still good anyway.