Hey element damage, why are you the way you are?

[Gahrzerkire]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Hey friend, I think you significantly misunderstood me.  Here's what you wrote that I facepalmed at:

I'm not interested in whatever logic or math got you to this conclusion.  I'm just not buying that you actually think DE doesn't know that 3x damage is better than 1.75x damage.  If you genuinely have that little faith in the fundamental arithmetic skills of the folks who developed this entire game, I am at a loss as to how to rationalize that.  Maybe it's not Dunning-Kruger, maybe it's Maybeline?

And to be clear, I'm not trying to drag you.  It's just those exact words in the quote that have my ire.  I'm sorry that it felt personal to you, it was not intended to be.

fair enough sorry for blasting you with a bunch of numbers in response. 

And this is how I rationalize it:

24 minutes ago, Reaverhart said:

They talked about nerfing slash right and left all the time as well as nerfing viral to "keep it in line with other status effects" then they literally made it even #*!%ing better, and made the only other kind of competing status effect worse. What other conclusion can be drawn then that they don't know what they are doing/don't understand how damage modifiers work?

(also clearly they do understand the math, they just must not check it, intend to make strange counter intuitive changes relative to what they say, or just plain old not give a S#&$, sure their are other options, but at this point im sick of giving them bloody excuses)

Looking at their history of balance in this game with status and other various things, they clearly do not understand how to balance their game, and dont have a clear comprehensive balance plan of any kind. They are not unified underneath any goal, and have been reactively responding to things since the games conception. I would believe they had a plan and some kind of balance mantra they were working on, or at least some kind of understanding of what in their mind was balanced, if the weapons they released, the warframes they released, or the changes they made had some kind of sensical logic behind them that was clear and visible to the player base.

There are lots of games that dont have that massive disconnect with anything sensible when it comes to the changes that they make. Path of Exile / League of Legends being good examples of a games that very clearly HAVE A BALANCE PLAN, or balance target. 

Their track record implies they don't know what they are doing. Rivens being an immaculate example of them not being able to make them do what they are supposed to, the ones for bad weapons arent nearly good enough, and the ones of good weapons are better substituted by rare mods 90% of the time(this is taking into account the idea that the probability of getting a goll roll riven is low and therefore not part of the statistic))

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

12 minutes ago, Reaverhart said:

fair enough sorry for blasting you with a bunch of numbers in response. 

And this is how I rationalize it:

Looking at their history of balance in this game with status and other various things, they clearly do not understand how to balance their game, and dont have a clear comprehensive balance plan of any kind. They are not unified underneath any goal, and have been reactively responding to things since the games conception. I would believe they had a plan and some kind of balance mantra they were working on, or at least some kind of understanding of what in their mind was balanced, if the weapons they released, the warframes they released, or the changes they made had some kind of sensical logic behind them that was clear and visible to the player base.

There are lots of games that dont have that massive disconnect with anything sensible when it comes to the changes that they make. Path of Exile / League of Legends being good examples of a games that very clearly HAVE A BALANCE PLAN, or balance target. 

Their track record implies they don't know what they are doing. Rivens being an immaculate example of them not being able to make them do what they are supposed to, the ones for bad weapons arent nearly good enough, and the ones of good weapons are better substituted by rare mods 90% of the time(this is taking into account the idea that the probability of getting a goll roll riven is low and therefore not part of the statistic))

Exhibit A is the IPS damage triangle.

Impact is good against shields, neutral against armor, bad against flesh.

Puncture is bad against shields, good against armor, neutral against flesh.

Slash is neutral against shields, bad BEST against armor, good against flesh.

Slash damage itself specifically has terrible modifiers against armor, but it's proc is the best answer to armor. Scaling armor makes resistances irrelevant. 

A lot of games use a damage triangle modeled after Rock Paper Scissors, but Warframe's  was doomed from the beginning and DE was too slow to correct it.

[Gahrzerkire]

cant delete posts apparently 

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

Wowza, ngl I completely agree that the damages need to be sort of removed or very much lessened by number because of why you stated. But they wont ever be removed, I can say that with confidence, warframe players are nuts about the numbers, seeing high stats give certain players arousal(riven buyers ) . 

Well... There might be some sort of middle ground....

Three games Developed By Super Giant Games (Bastion, Transistor & Hades)... All have on the surface... Seemingly JRPG Style Damage Types.... Except the reality is... They Don't.... There's literally only one type of Damage and It's Effective on All Enemies.... In their 2nd Game, Transistor, Damage Effects (what we know as Status Effects) we're the main focus of the game... Hell... Some Effects didn't even deal Damage.... Imagine if Nyx's Mind Control Slaves were actually Useful.... That's how good the Charm Status Effect was in Transistor....

For whatever reason this design methodology get shoved asside in their most Recent Game, Hades, where Upgrades from Aphrodite, Demeter, Artemis, Athena & to Some Degree Poseidon all give your weapon the same thing.... percentage Damage Increases.... Aphrodite actually used to be good but got Nerfed and she's still good but has now become more Homogenized with the other Afformentioned Olympians. Meanwhile Dionysus, Ares and Hermes get to stay Unique... Offering Incomparable Upgrades.... Even Zeus... Who offers the Worst Upgrades in the Game (as Seen in the Trailer).... Gets to remain unique with no one else offering what he offers... Even if we don't want them 😝.

As for large Damage Numbers.... You can still have those... Crit can be considered a Status Effect... 

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I can understand you just wanting a straight damage type of modifying but to me and a lot of players it oversimplifies a game like this, because it has said rpg elements.

It's Already Oversimplified.... Like you said... Viral and Slash are already king... You only need to learn the other types when doing Specialised Sentient Themed Content... 

My issue with RPG Elements is so incomprehensible even I'm not sure I understand it... All I can say Bastion is the only game I've played that had Minor RPG Style Progression that never once Bothered me.... LoL.... It even has a Modding System.... Except instead of Mods it's an Assortment of Liquor that you drink before you leave for whatever reason.... May favourites being Lunkhead Liqueur and Mender's Mead.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

They wont ever go away and like I said there should be enemies that go against the meta, or literally make sentients show up more, I see sentients like 1% of the time I'm playing(excluding the watcher drone thingies who scan you). I'd love more dynamic enemies but DE doesnt seem to want to add that(and some players would throw a hissy fit I already know). I'm simply saying as damage wont be changing as a whole we should either put all damages on par with each other or abandoned most of them, theres no point to use blast, gas, corrosive(ppl will say there is but no), or magnetic past level 50.

I suppose you're right I guess my issue I'm just not will to settle.... Instead preferring to suffer with what we have now hoping for something that will never Happen. 😥

4 hours ago, STUVash said:

But I explained how they were not though and even on the damage part they do work differently.
Toxic inflict damage on Health specifically.
Electricity inflict damage on Shield first, then Health, while being the only damage type with a DoT that infested cannot be immuned to.
Heat inflict damage on Shield first then Health, while also refreshing all previous heat stacks on each proc, this technically mean that your Heat DoT can stack INFINITELY.

That's precisely what bugs me.... 

X DOT works only under these conditions while Y DOT only works under those Conditions is exactly what cause my Hate towards Final Fantasy XIII....

It's also why I like Hades.... There's only one DOT Effect and it's called Hangover (there's actually two others but one is a Band Aid because the original effect doesn't work on Bosses and the Other is has no Reason to Exist because it doesn't Stack... My guess is it was put there to Water down the Drop Tables).... In any Case... Hangover DOT works on EVERYTHING !!! No Exceptions !!! It works on Wretches, Boneless, The Exhalted and every Single Boss..... 

Hangover is not a Damage Type because their are no Damage types in Hades.... There's literally only just Damage.... What the game does instead is let you decide how you would like that Damage to be Applied to all Enemies....

Dionysus Gives DOT...

Ares Gives You Delayed Damaged...

Zeus Gives you Area Damage....

Artemis gives you RNG Damage (Crit)

Hermes Gives you DPS (Speed Bonuses)...

Demeter, Aphrodite, Athena and Artemis (yes I mentioned Artemis twice) give Percentage Damage Increase... Hands down the most Disappointing Aspect of Hades because each of them are Supposed to be Unique.... Unfortunately the Damage Bonus far Out Shines the unique Status Effect for Each Goddess (Frost is too weapon Specific, Weak is well... weak, Deflect is only good for Divine Dash and Crit is just an Inconsistent version of the other Damage Bonus the others provide)...

Poseidon is Stuck in this middle Ground where he Offers Both a Damage Percentage Increase on Top of a Unique Status Effect... knockback... Which doesn't do anything unless the enemy slams into something either resulting in Slam Damage or Getting caught in a Trap.... Knock is also the only Status Effect with an Infinite amount of Stacks.... Yes.... Each tightly Successive Knockback will Push harder than an equal number of Knockbacks evenly Spaced for some Ungodly reason 😐.... 

 

Anyway.... My point is Everything listed above Works on every Enemy Exactly the same way.... Granted there are two known Exceptions.... You can't Deflect Asterius's , Hades' and Theseus's Spin Attack for some Reason and Knockbacks are 90% less effective on Bosses.... Hades literally doesn't even nudge when I hit him with 4 Simultaneously Blood Stones enhanced by Poseidon....

 But other one that everything works one Every one as the Described.

4 hours ago, STUVash said:

This can not only lead great damage on one target, but using Mecha set effect you could also spread it on alot of enemies.
And in some other cases this can lead to really interesting development when tied with some abilities :)

And then the game throws Sentients at you killing the whole concept all together. 😐....

Damage Types Are Awful.... They must go....

[STUVash]

 

il y a 15 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

.And then the game throws Sentients at you killing the whole concept all together. 😐....

Damage Types Are Awful.... They must go....

We don't fight Sentients to THAT extent. If Sentients made for more than 50% of the enemies I killed, I'd ask myself questions aswell. But how often do you kill Sentients really outside of Operation Events ?
And even sentients have specific damage resistance and weakness that you can exploit... So they still fit in the same bag most of the time.
 

il y a 15 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

Hangover is not a Damage Type because their are no Damage types in Hades.... There's literally only just Damage.... What the game does instead is let you decide how you would like that Damage to be Applied to all Enemies....

All damage types apply Damage to all enemies in Warframe. There's just some exceptions with DoT...  and there are just a few so it's really not a big deal.
The rest does Damage. It's pretty straightforward overall.

In Hades your damage fluctuates depending on Luck, it's technically FAR worse than Warframe when it comes to Damage.
You won't necessarily get the build you want, that's why the system has to be simpler. Hades simply cannot afford to bring Damage Type in its game.
Warframe can so it does.

If Hades could mod your gear anytime you want like Warframe would, it'd make sense to use all these various elements from the Gods.

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, STUVash said:

We don't fight Sentients to THAT extent. If Sentients made for more than 50% of the enemies I killed, I'd ask myself questions aswell. But how often do you kill Sentients really outside of Operation Events ?
And even sentients have specific damage resistance and weakness that you can exploit... So they still fit in the same bag most of the time.

Sentients and Nullifies is just a Catch all term I use to describe anything that exhibits those effects....

And Speak for yourself.... I actually did use to spend majority of my play sessions don't a single type of Content....

It's not uncommon for people to spend most of the time only doing Veil Proxima or only doing Arbitrations or only doing Escort Simulator or Spice Missions....

The Grind is uneven....

[STUVash]

à l’instant, Lutesque a dit :

Sentients and Nullifies is just a Catch all term I use to describe anything that exhibits those effects....

And Speak for yourself.... I actually did use to spend majority of my play sessions don't a single type of Content....

It's not uncommon for people to spend most of the time only doing Veil Proxima or only doing Arbitrations or only doing Escort Simulator or Spice Missions....

The Grind is uneven....

Well. if you've been Grinding so long that you forgot, I'll be happy to inform you that Sentients, are not everywhere at all.
Not only do you not meet them that often but when you do their numbers are fairly low.
Even if you were to do a Veil Anomaly run you'd just kill 20 sentients and among these 20 are many Brachiolyst being able to suffer status (including DoT)
The only exception is quite recent with Scarlet Spear and the Orphix mode where they are quite numerous.

And even then, in both Veil Anomaly and Orphix you're killing lot more enemies from Corpus and Grineers than Sentients.
At least in Veil Anomaly killing  sentient is the actual objective, in Orphix the objective is to destroy Orphix so you wouldn't even focus on most Sentients enemies, just this one.

[Lutesque]

7 minutes ago, STUVash said:

Well. if you've been Grinding so long that you forgot, I'll be happy to inform you that Sentients, are not everywhere at all.

I'm pretty sure I never said they were 😐 !!!

You also missed the whole point of my argument:

19 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Sentients and Nullifiers is just a Catch all term I use to describe anything that exhibits those effects....

For example.... Demo's are Sentients as far as I'm concerned....

[STUVash]

il y a 20 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

I'm pretty sure I never said they were 😐 !!!

Never said you did, I'm just making my point.
 

il y a 20 minutes, Lutesque a dit :

For example.... Demo's are Sentients as far as I'm concerned....

Ah...  well yeah they are not Sentient but they do Nullify abilities.
However they're not immuned to Status (including DoT). so they're really not like your typical Sentient enemy :/

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, STUVash said:

Never said you did, I'm just making my point.

And I made mine...

4 minutes ago, STUVash said:

Ah...  well yeah they are not Sentient but they do Nullify abilities.
However they're not immuned to Status (including DoT). so they're really not like your typical Sentient enemy :/

Tomato To-mah-to.... They can burn in hell with the rest of the actual Sentients... It's all the same to me...😈

[STUVash]

à l’instant, Lutesque a dit :

Tomato To-mah-to.... They can burn in hell with the rest of the actual Sentients... It's all the same to me...😈

You're a funny one alright, but I guess all this talk now makes more sense lol 😅

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

There's no way you actually believe the words you're typing.  I'm tired of comments like these, they're just evidence of Dunning-Kruger.

You can't just test with one weapon; your results will be skewed and not generalize.  I usually test with Corrupted Gunners and Corrupted Bombards, and with most weapons one dies faster to Viral and the other dies faster to Corrosive, and I have to make a strategic decision which element to use.  I would hazard that the Heat procs from your Ignis Wraith are "interfering" with your test, as they are lowering the armor, which is making Corrosive less effective due to the redundancy.  There also may be some issues due to damage types.  There's nothing wrong with also using Heat on a weapon, of course; often I do, as it's a good synergy.  But even with Heat on a weapon (which many of my tests include), I've found that some weapons still get faster kills on heavies with Corrosive than Viral.  The Ignis Wraith just isn't one of those weapons (if I recall, mine is modded for Viral).

Do you have tests to prove this?  This seems doubtful.

This game already has a ton of variety of enemy types.  I'm not sure what your solution is and how it can't work with the existing several hundred enemies.  You might want to be more specific in what exactly you're asking for.

I certainly wouldn't say that the element systems is perfect, but I don't think it's as dire as you're making it out to be.  Yes, there are a few damage procs that stand out because of their general usefulness for killing: Viral, Fire, Slash, Corrosive, and Toxin.  But the other types still find their uses.  I can't count the times I've heard about something cool you can do against certain kinds of enemies or with a certain weapon that exploits a damage type that I don't use a lot. And honestly, if you can fit it on a weapon, I still think Radiation is a great support proc, and it's a pleasure whenever I have a weapon like the Kuva Nukor that has it.

Your Ignis test and this line seem to suggest that the way you're thinking about status is skewed towards weapons that apply many procs to enemies, as opposed to weapons that hit fewer times for larger damage each hit.  This may be a blind spot in the way you're considering status.  There are many useful weapons that might only get 1 or 2 procs per enemy before that enemy dies, and with those weapons different elements pull ahead.  For example, Radiation provides the most important aspect of its proc on the first hit, and any hits after that are just gravy. If you're not going to get many procs, that can change what elements you will choose for your weapon.

I do like this, that sounds fun

i test with Ignis and Dread, my pure slash crit build or my viral crit build works better than corrosive always, goes with my Karak too.

I was wrong about viral being better against a shielded enemy than magnetic would be, I was thinking of toxin, point still stands.

I use the Ignis because it has innate armor strip capabilities, theoretically it should push the armor strip further especially at high stat appliance ... but this may not the case. (Corrosive caps at -80% armor but fire pushes it further) 

honestly Im just searching for ideas, enemy types like an overshield only or something of the sort I feel would make people use different elements.. corpus are just as squishy as infested at times if you simply slap some toxin on your gun. Steel path corpus are just as easily to kill as level 30 grineer because of toxin... not saying that’s a bad thing but like I said the implementation of the elements really messes up the whole concept and you have overpowered mods that will always take the spotlight since they make other elements look controversial in design. 
 

and yes I know, like I said in a second comment I know of the wide variety already (just try counting your grineer codex by hand) but still, its more of differentiating faction appearances and such, the overall variety isnt as such, I think new enemy types could solve a few things tbh, not talking about a lot just a few ‘spec ops(??)’ in each faction like a mediate damage but overshields robot, grineer already have Nox, a completely fossilized infested ancient... you’d have to mod for blast(which a ton of infested are actually weak against so it’d work across the board in dark sectors) 

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

8 hours ago, STUVash said:

The solution is rather simple, just give us more Robotic enemies

THIS, holy moly, you know how many times I look at electricity and think “curse the lack of robotics” and equip cold or toxin instead for corpus

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

8 hours ago, STUVash said:

The reason you created this thread was to explain how you think....

 

And on my previous post I explained how they do work as intended except Gas which has really weird rules.
Now if you specifically want to talk about Toxic VS Magnetic against shield enemies. We can do that too.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Toxic damage does work on Health directly. This mean that when fighting a corpus with Flesh type resistance for their Health, you're doing a great job with a +50% Dmg.
On most weapons, the main damage won't be Toxic. So we can expect a split in the damage, one part attacking the Shield and the smaller toxic part attacking Health.

However, when fighting a Robot, the resistance type is Robotic, where Toxic not only lose the +50% it had on Flesh but it also gets a -25%. So now your toxic damage is HALF of the damage it had before. And if the robot has armor, this Toxic damage is further reduced depending on the level of the enemy.

So you're losing more than half of the toxic damage you were doing on a corpus flesh guy. And this toxic damage is not inflicting its damage on Shield. Which means it's not helping removing the shield either. In this worse case scenario where your enemy has both shield, and armor, it would be faster to just remove the shield and then attack the Health bar with the proper damage type.

The reason no one bother running Magnetic is because Armor damage reduction is far more detrimental to the player progression than shield is, and the reason why you can get away with using Toxic damage so much against Corpus is because their Health have no armor and their Shield stat overall is too small.
This doesn't make Magnetic any weaker, it just doesn't benefit you as long as it should.

The reason why no one really care about Shield is because of how it has been set on enemies. Shield on most Corpus enemies has a lower ratio than Health. Meaning it takes less effort to remove Shield than it would to remove Health, and when Shield is gone, Magnetic benefit is technically lost.
And on the enemies that do have a much higher Shield ratio, they also have a smaller Health stat. Typical example is Anti Moa 500 Shield for 50 Health. You don't need a high toxic damage to take it down, not because Toxic Damage is good but because Health is simply too low.

Not only that but once the shield is gone, Toxic would work great against Flesh.
Most robotic enemies ratio are more diverse but their stats are actually smaller . Meaning you don't need as much damage as you would against Flesh.
When you take all that into account, it ends up not being a big deal if you use Toxic instead of Magnetic.

The idea behind this balance is that Shield can regenerate. If the shield of an enemy were to regenerate, the total damage it could withstand  would be much higher than its health. In a game where you'd have to hide to recover your ammunitions, health and shield. This balance would work, the enemy shield would recover if something goes wrong forcing you to hide. During combat Shield Osprey can also regenerate the enemy shield. Unfortunately Shield Osprey didn't evolve enough to be a proper threat.

So it's not exactly a fair ground for Magnetic. Corrosive on Armor will benefit from the damage weakness even if the armor is 5. Much easier to use and more consistent in their own field of expertise.

Even then, one could ask, would running Toxic damage be better than Magnetic no matter the enemies we face among Corpus ?
The answer is No. Some robotic enemies, not even the strongest ones have more balance Shield/Health ratio and rather high stats. The stats are high enough to slow down the Toxic damage progression over Health, and Shield is big enough to give room for Magnetic to benefit the player, and it's Robotic damage resistance, meaning Toxic has reduced damage on Health.

Overall. Flesh Corpus die 65% faster with Toxic rather than with Magnetic when facing one of the most balanced Shield/Health ratio for Flesh Corpus (800/1000)  Axio Ranger Crewman
and Robotic Corpus die 66% faster with Magnetic rather than with Toxic when facing one of the most balanced Shield/Health ratio for Robotic Corpus (600/600) Terra Embattor Moa

Of course this is ignoring some enemies that could have both Shield and Armor. In this case Toxic would obviously be bad, but most Corpus lack armor so let's go with that...
The solution is rather simple, just give us more Robotic enemies. In corpus ship tileset, I think we have more moas but maybe even more than that give us proper Shield/Health ratio and some robotic enemies able to rival their Flesh counterpart in stats. Either that or upgrade the shield regeneration tactic they got going with Shield Osprey. It's really easy to just remove their biggest strength by destroying the Shield Osprey, if it wasn't so easily destroyed, Corpus would be lot stronger I reckon.

Grineers technically have a similar issue with their Machinery enemies, it's not that the damage resistance is weak it's that their stats are too low anyway, the only real threat end up being Alloy and Flesh from them.

You'd be right to say Status like Gas or Blast are pretty weird, but even for them you can't exactly say they're useless.

I agree with a lot of this. But I will say, no, I didnt make this post to explain how I think. The majority of corpus you’ll be facing won’t be as you explained, they’ll have 90%ish shields and 10-15% health that gets eradicated if they even get a whiff of toxin on their flesh. All the elements are somewhat viable(eh..) but the way some other status affects and how their proccs are put into effect, I dont think Blast, Magnetic, and a couple others will ever get used as often (or at all). i asked a few people today when I got home and everyone I asked said they’ve never used blast since they were a newbie and they only use magnetic for index coupled with.. guess what.. toxinnn, haha nah but still, the utter inbalance and lack of certain enemies that would actually be effected by crappy elements makes it to where you’ll mostly only be using 2-3 of the 9(i said 10 before) but was mistaken my bad

[Bigredteletubby]

19 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Corrosive useless ?

Yeah sure, you know what you're talking about. When has armor strip ever been a consideration in warframe right ?

Dude, seriously, just cause viral + slash is "better" doesn't mean corrosive (and all the other damage types) are useless now. I still use corrosive all the time.

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-03-23 at 1:48 PM, Kainosh said:

I think that Element's Proc should not affect enemies with Resistance to said Element. 

For example, Viral proc should never be applied to enemies with resistance to Viral damage.  

They're actually experimenting with that: certain Deimos enemies are immune to Viral procs

[Core_leon]

Some may have the wrong idea how balancing in games like this are done. The teams that do this are really small, we are talking here about maybe 5 ppl or even less that also had to rework Warframes, abilities, Weapons and other stuff. For Example the "Live Team" from Bungie (with over 1k ppl working for it days back at AV) had a 15 person "Live Team".

When you consider this you understand why they not come up with a rework. They had not the time to do so and XY other things to do. At this moment the Mechanic may be meh but work. If you start to redo the way this system work you first had to made the Math and than come up with solutions and tweaking it. This all takes time and when you rush this you may break something and than you had to start with panic patching and may pull ppl from other projects to clean up. 

People keep playing with this system so it has a low priority and new content are on the focus because it generate income. Balancing, if not needed, does nothing and just cost the company a truckload of work. 

So you have to ask your self what are the benefit for DE to do a rework of this system? They dont get 20k new Player with that and ppl dont buy huge stacks of Plat for this and its not even an ad for the game because its just a balance patch. 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

On 2021-03-24 at 6:51 PM, Fallen77 said:

Corrosive useless ?

Yeah sure, you know what you're talking about. When has armor strip ever been a consideration in warframe right ?

Viral heat outperforms corrosive in literally every scenario.

[Kainosh]

6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

They're actually experimenting with that: certain Deimos enemies are immune to Viral procs

Nah that's not a test.  Otherwise they would be immune to more than Viral.  Coz they have more than 1 resistance.    And we had bosses with absolute proc immunity for ages.

Deimos thing is just a lame attempt to make it a bit harder.  Coz DE know that Viral is too good and can trivialize almost anything. 

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

6 hours ago, Bigredteletubby said:

Dude, seriously, just cause viral + slash is "better" doesn't mean corrosive (and all the other damage types) are useless now. I still use corrosive all the time.

You can't say they aren't better, they very much are, I'll reword what I meant. They aren't useless but they are very subpar when in comparison to viral/slash or viral/fire. Most of the other damage types suffer from something similar.

[Yamazuki]

If balance really mattered, then by design some damage types would have to deal less damage than others. It makes no sense for a utility/cc oriented damage type to deal as much damage as a pure damage oriented type.

Although, given time to kill is the only relevant thing, the default for most people is what ever kills the Grineer the quickest. The only logical thing to do would be to simplify in the manner they were trying to with Railjack.

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

You can't say they aren't better, they very much are, I'll reword what I meant. They aren't useless but they are very subpar when in comparison to viral/slash or viral/fire. Most of the other damage types suffer from something similar.

How can Viral/Slash be better when you can one shot almost every single enemy outside of the waste of time that is sitting in a mission for several hours? And some of the few enemies that are designed to take multiple hits, are already immune to Viral procs entirely, and still get deleted anyways. Viral is spammed because Grineer is the only relevant faction to deal with in regards to durability, it is no different to how previously people used Corrosive even against Corpus/Infested. A hard requirement on frequent loadout swapping, or forced weapon usage, for the sake of diversity is terrible old age game design.

If you're deliberately using a weaker weapon, then I fail to see why you would care about efficiency in regards to damage types.

Also consider, removing armor, even entirely, is doable. Making Corrosive redundant, even before considering slash reliance. Even in SP using assault rifles, I do not rely on slash to kill Grineer, and even due to lazyness use Corrosive on Karak.

A long list of elements with enemies being resistant/immune only makes sense in Gacha [or similar] games. The purpose of elements and enemies requiring a specific character is for the purpose of getting people to buy all the characters. However, in a game like Warframe it is nothing but unnecessary fluff. It adds nothing to the game, and will never be balanced. It is one thing for different effects to exist, but damage types? No. It's just a silly copy/paste system from RPGs from the old times. There's a reason why most games default to one damage type with different procs, or a magic-physical-adaptive-true.

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

18 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

If balance really mattered, then by design some damage types would have to deal less damage than others. It makes no sense for a utility/cc oriented damage type to deal as much damage as a pure damage oriented type.

Although, given time to kill is the only relevant thing, the default for most people is what ever kills the Grineer the quickest. The only logical thing to do would be to simplify in the manner they were trying to with Railjack.

How can Viral/Slash be better when you can one shot almost every single enemy outside of the waste of time that is sitting in a mission for several hours? And some of the few enemies that are designed to take multiple hits, are already immune to Viral procs entirely, and still get deleted anyways. Viral is spammed because Grineer is the only relevant faction to deal with in regards to durability, it is no different to how previously people used Corrosive even against Corpus/Infested. A hard requirement on frequent loadout swapping, or forced weapon usage, for the sake of diversity is terrible old age game design.

If you're deliberately using a weaker weapon, then I fail to see why you would care about efficiency in regards to damage types.

Also consider, removing armor, even entirely, is doable. Making Corrosive redundant, even before considering slash reliance. Even in SP using assault rifles, I do not rely on slash to kill Grineer, and even due to lazyness use Corrosive on Karak.

A long list of elements with enemies being resistant/immune only makes sense in Gacha [or similar] games. The purpose of elements and enemies requiring a specific character is for the purpose of getting people to buy all the characters. However, in a game like Warframe it is nothing but unnecessary fluff. It adds nothing to the game, and will never be balanced. It is one thing for different effects to exist, but damage types? No. It's just a silly copy/paste system from RPGs from the old times. There's a reason why most games default to one damage type with different procs, or a magic-physical-adaptive-true.

I agree with the grineer(steel path grineer) being the default of "what hits hardest" type of questions but why is it like that..? It's only because of their armor since the other 5 enemy factions don't take as much to kill.(I say 5 because sentients, infested, deimos infested, corpus, and Vallis Corpus) The reason of this is simply because a certain 2-3 elements work great. 

 

Why'd you say "if you're using a weaker weapon then I fail to see-" ect..? 

I agree though, after reading this thread and looking at all the answers I've come to the conclusion that elements need no balancing. To some extent they're just there for a lil fun cc or tactic that isn't needed at all. Viral is half/half needed when it comes to killing sh*t but other than that a regular physical build with the proper mods and high crit chance do better than a pure element build as Ashisogi tenno and @Reaverhart have said. Slash is literally king and honestly I don't really want much changes with any of the damage types now, I would only ask that certain elements get buffed so they're somewhat as fun and actually effective as at least fire or the physical damages get tweaked in some way so that high puncture/impact(hemorrhage) weapons aren't complete sh*t but that's a whole different discussion. I agree, elements don't need a place in the game and whole pokemon/rpg element of strengths and resistences should only have the small place it does already. I will say though that it doesn't change the fact that some elements simply have no reason at all to be in the game. Blast and Magnetic are divine examples. It is an "unnecessary fluff" indeed. I suppose truly I wanted to have fun with all the elements but that just isn't possible sometimes. I love electricity but it doesnt have much oomph yknow? Same goes for stuff like gas(which I love tbh)

[0_The_F00l]

I partially agree,

Some elements (including combination) are simply superior AND convenient over trying to build for specific factions,

And enemies do have elemental resistance , just that the resistance is not significant enough to make a difference in most cases and the meta is already encouraging it for viral.

The existence of not just the element type , but also the PROC associated with it is significant , viral is having bonus damage to health against grineer ,sentient and corpus flesh and with each proc it just gets stronger.

A change in resistance could push other elements closer to effectiveness as pure damage , but their status procs will still not be worth it.

They would need both damage stat , and effect changes to be effective.

[(XBOX)Apoll0 666]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I partially agree,

Some elements (including combination) are simply superior AND convenient over trying to build for specific factions,

And enemies do have elemental resistance , just that the resistance is not significant enough to make a difference in most cases and the meta is already encouraging it for viral.

The existence of not just the element type , but also the PROC associated with it is significant , viral is having bonus damage to health against grineer ,sentient and corpus flesh and with each proc it just gets stronger.

A change in resistance could push other elements closer to effectiveness as pure damage , but their status procs will still not be worth it.

They would need both damage stat , and effect changes to be effective.

Pretty much what I was thinking, I dunno, check the last post(besides yours) I'm feeling a lil on the fence about it but I don't think it'll ever change tbh

[(PSN)Unstar]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

i test with Ignis and Dread, my pure slash crit build or my viral crit build works better than corrosive always, goes with my Karak too.

I use the Ignis because it has innate armor strip capabilities, theoretically it should push the armor strip further especially at high stat appliance ... but this may not the case. (Corrosive caps at -80% armor but fire pushes it further) 

I'm unfamiliar with the Karak, but Ignis and Dread both have innate solutions to the problem of armor (Heat and Slash), so it makes sense that you'd get more bang for your buck by adding Viral rather than adding a redundant solution to armor.  I did some tests with my Twin Grakatas last night versus level 140 Corrupted Bombards and Corrupted Heavy Gunners - just swapping a single mod to turn Corrosive into Viral - and both builds were better against one type of enemy and worse against another.  Ultimately I went with the Corrosive build, because on average it seemed to provide better kill times.  This was admittedly a bit surprising because I was using Primed Heated Charge on both builds, but the results are the results.  In short, I provide this example to show how context matters.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Apoll0 666 said:

I was wrong about viral being better against a shielded enemy than magnetic would be, I was thinking of toxin, point still stands.

I'm not sure what point you think you were trying to make, but I don't think it still stands?  Magnetic is generally going to be better against shielded enemies than Viral, which means Magnetic has a legitimate use case.  Toxin entirely bypasses shields, which definitely gives it a large advantage over any other damage type against shielded enemies, but this is complicated when those enemies also have armor or a health type that is resistant to Toxin.  Since only the Toxin portion of damage from your weapon bypasses the shields, in most cases you'll be doing a fraction of the damage you could be.  For a single weapon, this generally can't be solved by supplementing with Corrosive or Heat because most weapons can't pair these elements with Toxin.  So depending on the amount of shielding the enemy has, there are definitely situations where it is more effective to use Magnetic to quickly wipe out the shields and start doing your full damage.  Or you can use both Magnetic and Toxin for a hybrid approach.

It's true that on average, for a player who wants a one-stop-build they can use in all missions, certain types of builds will rise to the top.  But just because they're generally useful doesn't mean they're always optimal, and the context of what weapon they're being used on and what enemies they're being used against matters.  It's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.