Giving enemies DR is design cowardice.

[Duality52]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The corpus treasurer is supposed to run away from us and not get caught. They probably want you to actually use Magnetic and toxin like you're supposed to on corpus, or coordinate with your teammates to take him down. 

It's more than the Treasurer: majority of the Empyrean Corpus has innate damage reduction, along with a hidden 75% health damage resistance to Cold, Blast, Viral, and Magnetic. The worse offenders are the Aurax Robotics, where both MOAs (Polaris & Culveri) somehow gain more damage reduction when slowed (Nova's Molecular Prime, Sevagoth's Gloom, Cold Procs), capping near 95% damage reduction. The Aurax Atloc Raknoids have an innate 80% damage reduction on top of their armor, while being immune to Viral, breaking the consistency of Scyto/Kyta/Coolant Raknoids being vulnerable to Viral procs.

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You know what I think... I think Warframe needs a Beta version where DE can actually try some of these things out.... Preferably with premade Loadouts instead of our own....

They have one on steam. They just don't use. In fact They used it onde or twice ( deimos arcana and I don't remember the other time) but the feedback gathered falled in death ears until the same feedback was given by a screaming mob.

[keikogi]

6 hours ago, BlueQuiller said:

think the resistance to this fair albeit vague complaint is a little harsh. If a game feels unfair that's a valid complaint. If a game seems to hide it's systems behind layers of math that's a fair complaint. A fair response would also be that some of this nerd's math puzzle stuff is part of the game's appeal to certain people. Still, it's very fair to say that that sort of appeal is a little too niche.

tl;dr people's feelings are real even if they stem from a lack of experience and maybe chill a bit. complex issue

Scaling DR , the new brand on DR nonsense fall on that category but the formula is so obnoxious that feels like you are firhing the devs and not your enemy with the weird results it can give. On the protea fight when it first came out I remember my fully modded and rivened ( half decent one ) opticor vandal had a lower dps against the protea specter than my unmoded xoris ( to be fair it had pressure point and and 1 attack speed mod ). I fear that these system can lead to the same situation that killed the loot system in athem , the lvl 1 defender was the best weapon in the game because hidden math nonsense. It would be the equivalent of the mk1 Bratton with no mods be the best weapon in the game.

DR itself does not feel like something you would thrown to make the equation harder to solve because it's just a mutiplier that always apply.

 

 

[keikogi]

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Generally agreed with the OP. Hidden damage resistance modifiers for enemies are just lazy design. Worse, they're also pointless. All you're doing is increasing EHP in a roundabout way, so why bother

 

5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

really wish DE would stop creating special-case exceptions in everything. That's not good game design. Standardise your sodding enemy stats!

We've been through quite a few discussions over damage but I thing what is bothering me the most now is , the system is becoming an arcane system with no rules. Viral is OP but we can't muster the will to nerf it,  well give corpus unite viral resistance ( outside of the damage table of resistance of health type ) and infested units viral proc immunity. To what units these traits apply? Well the one we feel like it. We don't like moas being CCed , well make them deploy a shield to fight cc , nah just give them 99% DR when they are slowed and give this effect no especial particle so someone playing nova would never be able to understand why this moa won't die. Let's make Grineer litches not immune to status but they new batch off enemies is immune. New raknoid , give him 80% DR for no particular reason. Don't even get me started on the scaling DR nonsense .

 

[keikogi]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

for the OP, I agree, I dislike DR as a mechanic due to the inconsistency it creates any time we deal damage, and would be much happier simply giving certain units more base health or shields instead. I think this discussion could be taken even further and applied to other sources of DR like armor and damage type resistances, but if nothing else, I think it wouldn't really hurt to remove the supplementary DR from certain units and increase their health and shields proportionately instead.

We've been through a lot of discussions over damage and status but right now I'm being a bit of a single issue voter. I just want transparency over something as basic as blanket DR. If an Enemy has DR against all damage types just show it on the resistance table on it's codex entry.  Armor and elemental resistance have a a difference from blanket DR because they can be bypassed.  

[DrivaMain]

If DE putting all of these arbitrary DR, then we can assume they thought Warframe Revised rebalance was a failure. Another balance pass on damage types is long overdue. Maybe it’s time to address player power as well. Players has gone stupidly powerful there is no way to stop them without slapping ridiculous anti-cheese tactics, be it status immunity, DPS based damage reduction, and normal damage reduction.

[Zeddypanda]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They probably want you to actually use Magnetic and toxin like you're supposed to on corpus, or coordinate with your teammates to take him down.

Treasurers are completely immune to toxin damage.

[keikogi]

7 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

Personally...

Invincibility phases TRIGGER me!!1!

At least invincibility is transparent thought the Grey health bar. But indeed invincibility phases are really annoying especially if you have no agency over its duration. For example kiva guardians have invincibility but are not annoying at all

[keikogi]

10 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Read and understand before saying anything.  This thread is not about difficulty. It's about clarity.  

 

But back on topic. I agree with the OP. arbitrary, hidden Damage Reduction values are straight up design cowardice. DE is afraid that if they show the enemies' actual eHP values, it will scare players away from doing these contents. So they hide it and pretend everything is normal.   

It's just like Railjack enemies in general. Their actual damage output and eHP are closer to being level 200 than lvl 50-60 like they are being shown. Perhaps DE thinks that if new players sees the enemy levels being 200, they will be intimidated and not play Railjack. And perhaps this is a working strategy. Because if new players enters a Railjack mission, a geared player can easily carry them through the entire stage with little issue.  It's cowardice. But it works.   

What would happen if DE change it to show what they actually are and remove the arbitrary DR? Like if those tiny Corpus drone in Railjack missions are shown their actual HP values in the tens of millions and actual level of like 250. I would certainly like it, but I'm not sure new players would.  

The deeper core issue is still the fact that Warframe's math are all screwed up.  There's no way that damage output and eHP (for both players and enemies) that can be plotted on a log scale is healthy or any kind of game. Power fantasy or not.   

I'm not sure there is that much malice involve, it just feels like that DE gave up on warframe damage system and instead of fixing the mess it is giving a localized solution to each enemy. Eidolons have the closed damage system off void damage ( xaku brand off void damage may not apply ). Nox has his damage caps , a bunch off enemeis have scaling DR , nulifiers have a buble with srink rate , a bunch off enemies have select damage imunties to retify the imbalances off the actual damage system ( even dought the natural resistences of health ; armor and shield should do that ), big raknoidshave their own gimicks ( only arch gun and only heat canisters). The end result will certainly be the death off the damage system because each enemy will have it´s own damage system. 

I would not supose given malice first. There is a , seeminly ,reasonable logic to place the damage mechanics into the enemies and not in the core off the game , mostly its localized and easy to remove or rework. Howeve with the passave off time this solution will lead to core mechanic break down since the game no longer has consistence rules. 

 

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

If DE putting all of these arbitrary DR, then we can assume they thought Warframe Revised rebalance was a failure. Another balance pass on damage types is long overdue. Maybe it’s time to address player power as well. Players has gone stupidly powerful there is no way to stop them without slapping ridiculous anti-cheese tactics, be it status immunity, DPS based damage reduction, and normal damage reduction.

I tought this as soon as deimos came out. 

There where obvious roles on the status rework, like some status care about damage , others care about damage and aplication rate and others about both leading to some natural inbalances on status power. Enemies also have no base stat relataed to their reistence to status so if an enemy does not want to be easy trivilialized by status well it has to have imunity. Damage has been off the sharts for quite a while now due to excess off compouding mutipliers. 

[deothor]

18 hours ago, keikogi said:

Why give an enemy 1000 health and 99,9% DR ? Just give the enemy 1 000 000 health instead.

In all honesty i prefer crappy DR than full invoulnerability stages "just cause... ITS CINEMATIC (also we have to make encounter last minimum 5 minutes or we wont get paid)"

Although having almost 100% DR is just as stu..silly.

 

Edit: Kinda funny that I havent visited the forums for about half a year and i still see certain "polarity-nick guy" still nitpicking and missing the points on purpose :D 

[LuckyCharm]

Personally I think DR needs to be removed entirely. Including from frames. Replace it with something else like nezhas old shield or something, but damage reduction, especially upwards of 50% just makes it so enemies need to do EVEN MORE to kill your already almost unkillable frame but means frames without the DR are also so much less likely to be picked on areas that require some sort of damage mitigation purely because it's overtuned for the DR people can get.  If anything just remove the DR, remove the hitscan for enemies and make bullets able to be dodged rather than homing. You feel like a god dodging bombard rockets, feel cheated dodging it and it curves to hit you anyway. With the current enemy limit its highly unlikely theres going to be too many bullets on screen at any one time if people are playing efficiently or leaving line of sight, why not remove their auto aim and see how much less people need ridiculous defenses

[DoomFruit]

20 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... In the matter where Armor is included, its represented by "Damage Resistance" and not a huge HP pool (huge HP pool is how its usually represented in Star Trek Online and that causes confusion by itself)...

So, the example you're basing this thread on must be those Corpus Treasurers, the ones that reward Granum Coins. If that's the case then I admit I don't understand the reasoning behind their DR as there's no valid reasoning behind it.

Thumpers too (and noxes, and juggernauts). Hitting the "weak spot" on a thumper's knee does about 1/100 the damage of hitting a normal grineer of the same level with the same armour with the same weapon. And just in case anyone starts saying "but you're using a tiny little handgun against a giant mech", I'm using a giant mech gun (Morgha, Imperator, Mausolon) against another giant mech. Incidentally, that tiny little handgun (my kitgun) does more DPS against both large and small targets than that giant mech gun, but that's another matter entirely.

16 hours ago, Duality52 said:

It's more than the Treasurer: majority of the Empyrean Corpus has innate damage reduction, along with a hidden 75% health damage resistance to Cold, Blast, Viral, and Magnetic. The worse offenders are the Aurax Robotics, where both MOAs (Polaris & Culveri) somehow gain more damage reduction when slowed (Nova's Molecular Prime, Sevagoth's Gloom, Cold Procs), capping near 95% damage reduction. The Aurax Atloc Raknoids have an innate 80% damage reduction on top of their armor, while being immune to Viral, breaking the consistency of Scyto/Kyta/Coolant Raknoids being vulnerable to Viral procs.

This only vindicates my decision to never touch the Corpus railjack stuff. I did wonder what kind of BS and gimmicks they loaded it with after seeing the new corpus ship enemies, and I'm not particularly surprised to see this.

[Teoarrk]

Imo DR should be used to give different targets priority, as happened with Ancient Healers. This new focus on just giving enemies high DR to counter our red crits demonstrates to me that they are not confident in the slightest that they can put something in front of us that we need to respect. At least for the Nox there was some skill there, but the Corpus Railjack implementation is just boring and makes a bad game system even less fun to play.

[keikogi]

5 hours ago, deothor said:

all honesty i prefer crappy DR than full invoulnerability stages "just cause... ITS CINEMATIC (also we have to make encounter last minimum 5 minutes or we wont get paid)"

Although having almost 100% DR is just as stu..silly.

I'm not complaining about durability or time to kill I just want the game to use the visible stats off enemies instead of using hidden numbers to scale enemy durability into the stratosphere. I just want an Enemy with 1 billion health health to have 1 billion health instead off hiding its durability thought unlisted 99,99 % universal damage resistance.

I don't even mind invunerability if I can knock enemies out off it. The glass enemies where not that annoying to fight and the kiva guardians aren't either.  But stuff like sagas huk and flying vayhke is just unbearable, indeed.

[keikogi]

4 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

anything just remove the DR, remove the hitscan for enemies and make bullets able to be dodged rather than homing. You feel like a god dodging bombard rockets, feel cheated dodging it and it curves to hit you anyway.

I've realized over the years I can't recall someone posting a play anywhere. People post builds because the way you play is mostly irrelevant in comparison. 

 

[keikogi]

49 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

DR should be used to give different targets priority, as happened with Ancient Healers. This new focus on just giving enemies high DR to counter our red crits demonstrates to me that they are not confident in the slightest that they can put something in front of us that we need to respect. At least for the Nox there was some skill there, but the Corpus Railjack implementation is just boring and makes a bad game system even less fun to play.

I have a dreadfully feeling that DE gave up on the core damage system on the game and each enemy will have its own little damage system. Scaling DR is the DEVs quite literally enforcing a speed limit on the damage high way.  Elements don't matter at all given that void damage should damage than but xaku brands is not compatible for reasons , that also goes for enemies having elemental resistance not listed on their damage table.  Nullifies bubbles don't care about damage output function as a sort of hp bar. Status was rework to always work for the grand duration on 1 update, and now it's worse because enemies have selective imununety so it's even harder to know who is vulnerable to what.  

[Teoarrk]

7 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I have a dreadfully feeling that DE gave up on the core damage system on the game and each enemy will have its own little damage system. Scaling DR is the DEVs quite literally enforcing a speed limit on the damage high way.  Elements don't matter at all given that void damage should damage than but xaku brands is not compatible for reasons , that also goes for enemies having elemental resistance not listed on their damage table.  Nullifies bubbles don't care about damage output function as a sort of hp bar. Status was rework to always work for the grand duration on 1 update, and now it's worse because enemies have selective imununety so it's even harder to know who is vulnerable to what.  

You know, this is exactly why I think that enemy resistances in general should not be hidden behind scans. That questionably useful UI that came with the update to Simaris's scanner should be part of every weapons scoped UI. Where it is now means that the only bone that the game throws players to help them understand how to take on enemies is in a place where new players won't find it till much, much later than it should be.

[keikogi]

12 minutes ago, Teoarrk said:

You know, this is exactly why I think that enemy resistances in general should not be hidden behind scans. That questionably useful UI that came with the update to Simaris's scanner should be part of every weapons scoped UI. Where it is now means that the only bone that the game throws players to help them understand how to take on enemies is in a place where new players won't find it till much, much later than it should be.

While I not exactly a huge fan of the scan system, since it only works because of crunches (astral autopsy (RIP) and helios ) at very least it is in game info not arcane knowledge o the note section of the game wiki. I would rather if the enemies had the kind of visual clarity that makes it easy to tell what they have going for them. Shiny armor -> alloy, glossy armor -> polymer or ferrite or ceramic ( I would rename it polymer so corpus would universal use ). Invisible shield (only visible on the game HUD through the enemy hp bar) - > shield, visible aura as shield -> proto shield. And that´s assuming there is merit on having that many types of health, shield, and armor. I generally fine with enemy resistances as long as they are easy to figure out at glance, no one expects fire to work against a fire elemental but having a guy wearing a cloak but somehow having a plate type armor is nonsensical, and in warframe we have a lot off that kind off nonsense lancer has ferrite armor and elite lancer has alloy armor but they look the same.

[Teoarrk]

4 minutes ago, keikogi said:

While I not exactly a huge fan of the scan system, since it only works because of crunches (astral autopsy (RIP) and helios ) at very least it is in game info not arcane knowledge o the note section of the game wiki. I would rather if the enemies had the kind of visual clarity that makes it easy to tell what they have going for them. Shiny armor -> alloy, glossy armor -> polymer or ferrite or ceramic ( I would rename it polymer so corpus would universal use ). Invisible shield (only visible on the game HUD through the enemy hp bar) - > shield, visible aura as shield -> proto shield. And that´s assuming there is merit on having that many types of health, shield, and armor. I generally fine with enemy resistances as long as they are easy to figure out at glance, no one expects fire to work against a fire elemental but having a guy wearing a cloak but somehow having a plate type armor is nonsensical, and in warframe we have a lot off that kind off nonsense lancer has ferrite armor and elite lancer has alloy armor but they look the same.

Yeah there really should be easy visual clarity. We have easy visual clarity between melee Grineer and ranged, but this could easily be stretched to elite and non elite Grineer.

[Steel_Rook]

18 hours ago, keikogi said:

We've been through quite a few discussions over damage but I thing what is bothering me the most now is , the system is becoming an arcane system with no rules. Viral is OP but we can't muster the will to nerf it,  well give corpus unite viral resistance ( outside of the damage table of resistance of health type ) and infested units viral proc immunity. To what units these traits apply? Well the one we feel like it. We don't like moas being CCed , well make them deploy a shield to fight cc , nah just give them 99% DR when they are slowed and give this effect no especial particle so someone playing nova would never be able to understand why this moa won't die. Let's make Grineer litches not immune to status but they new batch off enemies is immune. New raknoid , give him 80% DR for no particular reason. Don't even get me started on the scaling DR nonsense .

My issues precisely. That's a very good way of putting it. DE's enemy design right now is chaos and madness. Every enemy faction variant has its own standalone rules which conform to no overall design doctrine and enemies within that faction have stats as if chosen by throwing darts at a board. They give us 13 damage types, eleventy billion health types, armour, shields and tell us "OK, now optimise your arsenal." Against #*!%ing WHAT? Every individual enemy has their own esoteric design consideration that I couldn't possibly be expected to remember and all of them together just make for frikkin' mess. I have no idea who's immune to what or resistant to what under what circumstances any more. This is starting to feel less like a video game and more like a psychological experiment.

And on top of it all, levels don't matter any more, either. Terra Corpus enemies have stats about 20 levels higher than what it says over their heads. Railjack Grineer have similar offensive values to their same-level counterparts but 20 times more health (or did, last I checked - God only knows what they have now). On and on and on like that. As a player, what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to adapt to this? Well... I'll tell you how. I stack my stats so high that none of it matters and screw game design. Because that's what happens when your system is opaque to the player - the player doesn't engage with it, but instead looks for ways to circumvent it.

Standardise your sodding stats! This is so frustrating I don't even have words for it any more.

 

15 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

If DE putting all of these arbitrary DR, then we can assume they thought Warframe Revised rebalance was a failure. Another balance pass on damage types is long overdue. Maybe it’s time to address player power as well. Players has gone stupidly powerful there is no way to stop them without slapping ridiculous anti-cheese tactics, be it status immunity, DPS based damage reduction, and normal damage reduction.

Well, thanks. Now I'm depressed :) But seriously, though - this is the nightmare scenario. I've often cited the various "Revised" updates as being easily Warframe's high points in the last few years, but... What if DE consider those a failure? Railjack was supposed to be the testbed of a new damage system, and I for one liked what I saw. So what did DE do? They scrapped it entirely with Railjack Revised. So... Experiment failed? Warframe Revised was supposed to gradually phase out status immunity in favour of partial resistance. We saw that with Liches as its testbed. So what did DE do? They started ramming status-immune COMMON enemies into the game. So... Experiment failed? I'm starting to see the same pattern in DE that I saw in Wargaming years ago. "Hey, we know this game has problems. Here are some really cool changes we can make to address them! ... Actually, never mind, let's do nothing at all for a decade."

I'm a pretty cynical guy, but that still hadn't crossed my mind until you just now said it. I kept thinking that DE were still working on this stuff behind the scenes. It just takes them forever to actually DO anything. But what if they aren't? What if they considered the "Revised" approach a failure? What if they've decided to "screw balance, just make it work, let's not rock the boat." Because honestly... That right there is the nightmare scenario.

 

3 hours ago, Teoarrk said:

Imo DR should be used to give different targets priority, as happened with Ancient Healers. This new focus on just giving enemies high DR to counter our red crits demonstrates to me that they are not confident in the slightest that they can put something in front of us that we need to respect. At least for the Nox there was some skill there, but the Corpus Railjack implementation is just boring and makes a bad game system even less fun to play.

CONDITIONAL damage resistance and status immunity, yes. That's not a bad idea. It doesn't even have to be about target priority. You could tie it to destroying weak points, temporary buffs and a whole bunch of other things. Then it's an actual game mechanic. What DE are doing, though, feels more like a cop-out. "We don't care about balance any more. Let's just make sure this looks like it works and kick it out the door."

[keikogi]

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And on top of it all, levels don't matter any more, either. Terra Corpus enemies have stats about 20 levels higher than what it says over their heads. Railjack Grineer have similar offensive values to their same-level counterparts but 20 times more health (or did, last I checked - God only knows what they have now). On and on and on like that. As a player, what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to adapt to this? Well... I'll tell you how. I stack my stats so high that none of it matters and screw game design. Because that's what happens when your system is opaque to the player - the player doesn't engage with it, but instead looks for ways to circumvent it.

That reminds me of my friend complaining about railjack grineer when it came out. His working theory was that the railjack grinner where exposed to cosmic rays and got superpowers because they sure looked like it.

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

My issues precisely. That's a very good way of putting it. DE's enemy design right now is chaos and madness. Every enemy faction variant has its own standalone rules which conform to no overall design doctrine and enemies within that faction have stats as if chosen by throwing darts at a board. They give us 13 damage types, eleventy billion health types, armour, shields and tell us "OK, now optimise your arsenal." Against #*!%ing WHAT? Every individual enemy has their own esoteric design consideration that I couldn't possibly be expected to remember and all of them together just make for frikkin' mess. I have no idea who's immune to what or resistant to what under what circumstances any more. This is starting to feel less like a video game and more like a psychological experiment.

I kind had been noticing it but could not quite put into words. Nulifiers care about damage aplication rate , shield care about taking multiple instantes of damage , enemies have table of resistance but have other hidden elemental resistences under the hud , unit some times are imune to a a status type, sometimes units are imune to every status ( without rime or reason ) units have blanket DR instead of just having more hp and shields , é eidolons shield are imune to everything except void damage ( xaku can go #*!% himself ) , nox has damage caps , jugulus has the will off god itself enforcing a ttk. The New moas with condicional DR is just the sign off thing to come. The worse part is , almost none of that has any visual clarity. It's no wonder people can't be bothered anymore and just keep whatever build they had before and slaps more raw damage buffs on top.

Edit: In summary it feels like DE gave up on the damage system and is assigning a "Damage system " to each enemy given the amount off enemies that do not follow the rules off the game nor have any kind off internal consistency.

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

CONDITIONAL damage resistance and status immunity, yes. That's not a bad idea. It doesn't even have to be about target priority. You could tie it to destroying weak points, temporary buffs and a whole bunch of other things. Then it's an actual game mechanic. What DE are doing, though, feels more like a cop-out. "We don't care about balance any more. Let's just make sure this looks like it works and kick it out the door.

Nox is a good example off use of DR mechanics because it's well communicated visually and you can play around it. Even the infamous moa with DR on cc could be interesting if it had a shield drone deployed when it suffers cc giving a immense personal shield.

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Well, thanks. Now I'm depressed :) But seriously, though - this is the nightmare scenario. I've often cited the various "Revised" updates as being easily Warframe's high points in the last few years, but... What if DE consider those a failure? Railjack was supposed to be the testbed of a new damage system, and I for one liked what I saw. So what did DE do? They scrapped it entirely with Railjack Revised. So... Experiment failed? Warframe Revised was supposed to gradually phase out status immunity in favour of partial resistance. We saw that with Liches as its testbed. So what did DE do? They started ramming status-immune COMMON enemies into the game. So... Experiment failed? I'm starting to see the same pattern in DE that I saw in Wargaming years ago. "Hey, we know this game has problems. Here are some really cool changes we can make to address them! ... Actually, never mind, let's do nothing at all for a decade."

Railjack damage system gave me a bit off a no confidence vote. It did a few things right ( in my opinion ) and a lot of wrong. The tear status was condition overload eletric Boogaloo and single target cc effects are effectively useless because any enemy worthy off single target cc will be imune to it. It also failed to adress the long running issues with armor and status resistence. The system had a few positives with less damage types and no elemental mixing. 

However I agree with you that the nightmare scenario is just letting it be and keep stacking band-aid on top off each other.

[DrivaMain]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

So what did DE do? They scrapped it entirely with Railjack Revised. So... Experiment failed?

Correction, The Railjack damage types still exist on the game. Railjack Retrofit only changed their name and icons.

[Nash]

On 2021-05-06 at 8:06 AM, taiiat said:

it gets more complicated when we have Level Scaling, that scales their EHP. while any sorts of Special DR they give Enemies, does not. so if they gave an Enemy 1,000,000 base Health, it would actually be significantly harder to Kill than 1000 Health and 99.9% DR.

Good, that means raid bosses can actually be a thing, and I would actually need my clan/team mates to kill bosses. Woohoo when does WARFRAME finally hop on the train every other game takes when it comes to HP and co-op, because honestly I would prefer that than another Tusk Thumper/Exploiter design.  But seriously, this is only beneficial on bosses, fodder enemies are supposed to be fodder. Only special/boss type of enemies deserve that amount of health.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Delete hitscan please. I despise hitscan in all forms. For all. Intents and purposes it’s technically cheating.