New primes suck for long time players

[DrivaMain]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Why are/were Bramma and Catchmoon fun? Or, more specifically, why are they fun when other weapons aren't?

It's "Fun" because it speeds up the grind or in the minds of a meta slave "less effort required".

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

16 hours ago, Leqesai said:

On 2021-05-27 at 6:25 AM, DrivaMain said:

The 1/5 change is a good decision...

Agreed...

I agree too, for all the reasons you gave. I am NOT asking for Prime weapons to start with higher riven dispo.

The rule should be either:

- The Prime with no riven has better stats than the base with a riven that boosts those stats, or...

- The Prime has more than 3 stat increases that overall add up to more than the 2-3 that the base can boost with a riven, or...

- The Prime has a significant new mechanic that makes it worth using over the base.

The Tenora Prime's alt-fire could have a different (or no) charge mechanic. It depends on headshots so having a charge that auto fires makes the longer delay really unusable. Just making it fire on trigger release (after charge, and cancel if not charged) instead would have been a huge usability improvement.

The Astilla Prime deserves an alt-fire - maybe something more like the Exergis, or maybe something with the glass mechanics introduced for the Vitrica.

11 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Why are/were Bramma and Catchmoon fun? Or, more specifically, why are they fun when other weapons aren't?

Because Warframe is a power fantasy. Getting a new weapon and splattering an enemy is hugely satisfying. It's the gameplay loop that keeps us coming back.

Getting a new weapon that's meh isn't satisfying. It feels like MR grind, level it and add it to the already massive pile of junk weapons. It's fine that this is kind of the norm - we want lots of new weapons, and some being duds or some being for new players is fine, good even. I want to see new weapons an MR4 player can get excited about too.

But these are MR14 primes. DE's main cashflow comes from players paying real money for them. They should be good, at the very least.

They look great, I'd probably buy some of them of these were Tennogen skins or cosmetics, but the last few Primes have been pathetic stat tweaks and nothing else interesting.

[Loza03]

Just now, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Because Warframe is a power fantasy. Getting a new weapon and splattering an enemy is hugely satisfying. It's the gameplay loop that keeps us coming back.

Getting a new weapon that's meh isn't satisfying. It feels like MR grind, level it and add it to the already massive pile of junk weapons. It's fine that this is kind of the norm - we want lots of new weapons, and some being duds or some being for new players is fine, good even. I want to see new weapons an MR4 player can get excited about too.

But these are MR14 primes. DE's main cashflow comes from players paying real money for them. They should be good, at the very least.

They look great, I'd probably buy some of them of these were Tennogen skins or cosmetics, but the last few Primes have been pathetic stat tweaks and nothing else interesting.

Exactly. Power fantasy. Bramma and Catchmoon offer one. Tenora should offer another. But it doesn't, and here's the thing, as Warframe stands, it wouldn't without coming at the cost of Bramma's power fantasy. That's why balance matters.

The Tenora is a gatling gun and a single shot cannon. The value of both of these is subsumed by the Bramma, because everything the Tenora does the Bramma and the Ignis or whatever the flavour is does better. Big beefy targets die instantly to the Bramma's boom, so the value of a single-shot cannon is lost. At its peak, it was a highly sustainable weapon, so the value of a big 'dakka dakka dakka' gun that shreds through whole legions over time is lost because the Bramma didn't need to stop. And the Bramma was obviously a top-tier chaff-clearer.

The limitations and weakness of one weapon or item is the power fantasy of another, and that's why balance matters. Making a weapon 'better' without consideration for that takes more than it gives.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

as Warframe stands, it wouldn't without coming at the cost of Bramma's power fantasy

Why? These aren't incompatible.

A Tenora Prime charged headshot should definitely be able to kill an enemy that the Bramma's AoE can't. 

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Big beefy targets die instantly to the Bramma's boom, so the value of a single-shot cannon is lost

The idea is that is offset by the Bramma's tiny clip and AoE stagger.

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

lost because the Bramma didn't need to stop

That's why they reduced the clip, but Carrier and Ammo Mutation Exilus mods exist so it was kind of pointless.

I mean, maybe nerf the Bramma, but it's not my point... I don't need the Tenora Prime to be better than the Bramma, I need it to be better than the base Tenora.

[Loza03]

 

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I mean, maybe nerf the Bramma, but it's not my point... I don't need the Tenora Prime to be better than the Bramma, I need it to be better than the base Tenora.

And it is unless you count rivens which many people consider to have been a mistake in the first place.

Rivens and Balance are the problem here, not Primes.

[(PSN)SergioMApt]

14 hours ago, Loza03 said:

So, here's a question:

Why are/were Bramma and Catchmoon fun? Or, more specifically, why are they fun when other weapons aren't?

Ragdoll AEO weapons are fun in general. One shot weapons are also fun. It's frustrating to have to unload a full clip without killing 1 enemy. (this is beyond rivens i know :) )
(of course I can have that happy powerful gun feeling by playing on Earth/Venus mission in normal mode...)

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Rivens and Balance are the problem here, not Primes.

I'm not so sure. 200 odd weapons in PvE I don't think balancing them is worth the effort. You want enough choices to keep the meta from going stale, but that's it.

I don't want the Destiny thing where all the weapons are well balanced but everything feels boring. The odd useless weapon or occasional OP at launch weapon is fine so long as they fix it.

I like what rivens are trying to do - I think it's really important to the late game. A riven can turn MR fodder weapon into something worth playing, and most of my favourite rivens are ⅘ or better and let me use otherwise fodder guns late game.

I think rivens being ⅕ on new guns is fine. I don't want a new weapon to need a riven to be usable. It's a new weapon, I'm gonna play with it because it's new. Something like the Sporothix is garbage but at least it's fresh garbage.

This is fundamental to primes because they are not new. They're the same old weapon with a couple of stat tweaks. The problem is not that I need more powerful weapons, I have a Bramma, I have everything.

The problem is that the Tenora Prime being the same as the Tenora is boring. It's just dull. It's tedious.

And the Tenora is just one recent example - of the last 10 prime weapons 9 have been MR fodder.

If primes are supposed to be cosmetic then ship skins instead.

If they're supposed to be an upgrade then make them always be an upgrade.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 26.5.2021 um 14:43 schrieb (XBOX)KayAitch:

The combination of weak Primes and all weapons starting at .5 dispo really sucks for long time players.

This doesn't happen with every new Prime, but it happens more and more the longer you play.

The experience goes something like...

- I loved the Tenora back when I first got it.

- I got a good riven for it and grinded/rolled it better.

- But it's still underpowered and has fallen by the way.

- New Tenora Prime announced! Exciting 😀

- It comes out and I get it and...

- It's a slight improvement on the base weapon, but not with my riven. 😞

This feels like a slap in the face - DE don't want riven price inflation and don't want power creep, I get it, but it sucks when a new variant just isn't any better than the old one.

It takes something that would draw me back in to the game (exciting new weapon) to something that drives me away (troll! It's just the same or worse, basically a skin).

Maybe it will be fixed with the next riven dispo round. Troll again! No it won't. Apparently the Tenora Prime somehow justifies being .5 dispo.

Or, you know, they just don't care.

I've talked about the Tenora Prime here, but the Astilla Prime is the same story. Most new primes are the same story.

DE, here's how this affects you: I can't remember the last time I thought a Prime Access was worth buying. I've stopped buying them. Not because I can't afford it, not because I wouldn't buy it if there was something I wanted.

No, I don't buy it because, even when one of my top all time weapons gets primed and I'd love a version of it that works in the Steel Path, I know it will be mediocre.

Here's a guide: if the base weapon outperforms a brand new Prime variant with a decent riven then your new Prime is a waste of development time and underpowered. Make primes significant upgrades.

That or just sell them as skins with the Prime Accessories pack. It will save us the Forma.

 

 

 

i think devs have long since given up balance.
It's probably more about looking cool and having more options. everything fits so far here.

and there are still old warframes that don't work at all. it is not so easy for beginners to unlock them. in the beginning they don't have all the top mods or no energy for skills. and later the skills do no harm at all.

There are more than enough proposals ... skills should scale with enemy level ... then at least problem would be solved with warframes.
and weapons are an other construction site

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2021-06-03 at 10:32 PM, Battle.Mage said:

I think devs have long since given up balance.

I don't think it was ever a goal in the first place. In a PvE game I think weapon balance is counterproductive - you either build a toolkit (think Doom's array of situational guns) that's very hard to add to (every weapon needs a niche), or you build a scale (new shotgun replaces less powerful old shotgun as you progress), but neither of these work well in a looter shooter.

I think Borderlands was probably the first to get this design working well: loads of guns, always something new to play with, but some are way OP and some suck.

Meanwhile I think Destiny is a good example of how to get this very wrong: huge variety of weapons but incredibly bland because everything has to be balanced for PvP mode.

On 2021-06-03 at 10:32 PM, Battle.Mage said:

and there are still old warframes that don't work at all

Yeah, but a lot of that is due to the shifting nature of the game. EV Trinity used to be needed on every team, now Zenurik and Arcane Energise replaced that. CC skills (like Loki's Irradiated Disarm or Nyx's Chaos) used to be essential but aren't that useful in the current scaling  DPS meta.

On 2021-06-03 at 10:32 PM, Battle.Mage said:

There are more than enough proposals ... skills should scale with enemy level

Exactly - every frame should get at least 1 scaling ability.

Guns need scaling mods too, that's what makes melee so good at the moment.

But that's a little off topic - prime frames are always an upgrade, in part because they just have increased stats (weapons can have lower stats, for instance the Tenora Prime's slower charged shot) but also because rivens don't exist for frames. I suspect if they did we'd have the same problem.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

If DE gives us weapons with some kind of new unique function over the original, then I'd be happy. But if it's a buff that can be achieved by adding mods, then it's not a buff, it's just a reskin with more numbers involved.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-05-26 at 2:43 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

DE, here's how this affects you: I can't remember the last time I thought a Prime Access was worth buying. I've stopped buying them.

Don't veterans have Enough Platinum Saved Up to not even bother with Prime Access ?

For those players the only Appeal of Prime Access is the Exclusive Cosmetics and as we all know... Real End Game is Fashion Frame.... So ultimately as long as the Cosmetics are Pretty then DE is doing right by veteran players.

At this rate why do Veterans want MOAR POWA anyway ? 

You know what I want from Astiila Prime ?

Instead of more Crit.... I'd gladly take Less Crit, with Faster Reload and remove all the Puncture Damage from the AoE.... You can even lower the AoE's Total Damage by 35% To Compensate.... That way the Astilla would give me what I always wanted from all my weapons CONSISTENCY !!!

A new gimmick would have also been nice....

On 2021-05-26 at 3:59 PM, Loza03 said:

Whilst I sympathise with the situation, I think the problem is how Riven mods work. There doesn't seem to be any way to really make them work properly.

Bingo !!! 

On 2021-05-27 at 1:30 PM, RazerXPrime said:

Buff all weapons base stats and remove Riven Mods from the game. The more I hear people discuss Riven Mods the more it's becoming apparant that these things are unhealthy to Warframe.

Bingo Again !!! 🙂

On 2021-05-27 at 7:25 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Yes. DE have said several times that dispo is based on stats. They take the stats and apply (with some tweaks).

They did ?

 But the changes to Disposition is based on Usage ?

I don't believe that has been said (other than when Rivens were first added) but we all know that's how the changes are made....

But I've never actually heard DE Actually say anything on what influences Riven Changes.... LoL... I never believed they had the Stones to actually commit to a Specific Philosophy 😝 !!!

On 2021-05-27 at 7:25 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

 

I mean, it could be they just missed it and chose not to hotfix the oversight, but it seems less likely to me than they deliberately didn't buff it for undisclosed reasons.

My Suspicions tells me it's the latter 🤔.... But don't mind me... I always assume the worst when it comes to these things.

On 2021-05-27 at 7:25 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Maybe whoever is determined to keep vacuum on sentinels and sentinels made out of paper thinks the Tenora is way overpowered?

This person must by the life of the party during DE Holiday Get-togethers at the Office 😝 !!!

On 2021-05-27 at 7:25 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

My MR12 Tenora or Astilla is useless on the Steel Path, is it too much to expect a Tenora Prime or Astilla Prime to be that step up in power?

I mean... When you put it that way then no... I believe that is a Reasonable Request...

However.... My issue is with Why Steel Path has become the new Benchmark for Performance...

And with that said.... My question for you is.... Would Prime Variants be worth it if that were no longer the case ?

I mean my guess is probably not but I have to ask anyway 😛.

On 2021-05-28 at 1:05 AM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

And it doesn't. Good crit and status, but extremely low base damage means you're all about the fire rate and the crit isn't quite good enough without a crit-chance riven.

So it's basically what the Soma Prime became when it became Obselete Way back then.... Which makes you wonder if there even is a much worse state than Obselete ? 😱 Oh dear God... I pitty all the people who love The Soma Prime dearly....

On 2021-05-28 at 1:05 AM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

and don't pollute the relic RNG pool with its parts.

Which warrants its own thread if the issue with Primes continues....

On 2021-05-28 at 3:58 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

We have the occasional really cool upgrades, like Corinth Prime, Zhuge Prime, Zakti Prime, or Pyrana Prime, but most of the time we don't get anything too fantastic.

I consider this to be a Paradox.... Although I guess it depends on what you mean by "Cool"... 

If it's Performance then Corinth Prime is just barely an Upgrade...  If it's anything other than performance then it's just Worse than Corinth Vanilla 😝.

On 2021-05-28 at 3:58 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Astilla could've gotten heavy projectile drop in exchange for higher direct hit damage and larger explosion radius, or innate heat damage to match Gara's own use of molten glass.

You mean it would Arch over a short distance ?

That's pretty extreme.... 

On 2021-05-28 at 3:58 AM, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Volnus could have gotten a guaranteed slash proc on heavy attacks or melee slams, to give the impression that hits are so powerful that glass shards are chipping off the hammer into enemies.

That would make it the only Hammer Class weapon with a Guaranteed Slash Proc.... Right ?

Pretty Unique but.... Nevermind... It's good.... I was about Whine... 😁

On 2021-05-31 at 6:17 PM, DoomFruit said:

Honestly, I'd rather that rivens just get nuked entirely. Having mods with highly variable stats like that is going to butcher any attempt at balance, because you can't rely on the players having or not having them. Right now, there's only the devil's choice of balancing against the best possible outcome (which ruins it for those who don't have those perfect rolls) or the worst possible outcome (which makes it OP).

Bingo Yet Again 😁 !!!

On 2021-06-02 at 1:30 AM, Loza03 said:

Why are/were Bramma and Catchmoon fun? Or, more specifically, why are they fun when other weapons aren't?

A less important question is... Is the Bramma actually fun ? 

I mean don't get me Wrong I enjoyed the crap out of it when I first got it but After the honey moon Phase of Dealing Respectable Damage from a Bow Category Weapon wore off it became kinda Meh in terms of fun factor....

My guess is the fun comes from drastic Difference in Performance and not from actual Usability hence it doesn't stay fun for very long.

Catchmoon is a Different Story.... Being that it's a kitgun you can Build it out of Fun Parts (both Primary And Secondary) still get some decent performance out of it while still being very usable..... That plus Weapon Skins (Because Kitguns are Ugly as all hell) give it lasting Fun Factor....

 

[Lutesque]

On 2021-06-02 at 7:59 AM, DrivaMain said:

It's "Fun" because it speeds up the grind or in the minds of a meta slave "less effort required".

Pretty much....

It's a strange category of fun not understood by many....

I would also argue that this type of fun is not particularly healthy.... Even though I indulge in it alot.

On 2021-06-02 at 12:58 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

But these are MR14 primes. DE's main cashflow comes from players paying real money for them. They should be good, at the very least.

My guess is that's exactly what's happening.... People actually are buying them. 😛 

As for why ?

I honestly cannot say.... Il just assume they believe they are significant upgrades and they look Pretty....

Either way.... That's moola for DE...

On 2021-06-02 at 1:22 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

 

A Tenora Prime charged headshot should definitely be able to kill an enemy that the Bramma's AoE can't. 

Aaaaaah... Sweet Variety... We hardly knew thee... 😥

It would be great if we actually had weapons balance like in Warframe.

On 2021-06-02 at 1:22 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

That's why they reduced the clip, but Carrier and Ammo Mutation Exilus mods exist so it was kind of pointless.

Not Quite.... The Bramma's Nerf is actually unique in that You can not Bypass it using Ammo Mutation Effects.... Infact because of the Delay on Carrier's Precept that Actually made it even worse because it pools the Ammo picked up all into a single mutation .... Resulting into One, Single Arrow regardless of how much Ammo you picked up...

This Nerf, however.... Did not extend down to Ammo Restore Pads.... Since even a single Pulse from a Small Ammo Restore Pizza will give you a Full 5 Arrows for your Bramma Shenanigans....

So yeah.... A semi Pointless Nerf...

On 2021-06-03 at 11:32 PM, Battle.Mage said:

I think devs have long since given up balance.
It's probably more about looking cool and having more options. everything fits so far here.

Yeah... But... Does it ?

Something new can Invalidate something that worked just fine previously.... Thus you wind up with fewer options... Not more.... You only need to look at Status Rework to see the aftermath of those types of options.

It's a very delicate process and DE gets it right just as often as they get it wrong 😝....

On 2021-06-06 at 2:40 PM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I don't think it was ever a goal in the first place. In a PvE game I think weapon balance is counterproductive - you either build a toolkit (think Doom's array of situational guns) that's very hard to add to (every weapon needs a niche), or you build a scale (new shotgun replaces less powerful old shotgun as you progress), but neither of these work well in a looter shooter.

If you want an example of Weapon Variety then you could site Hades (by Supergiant Games) as an Example....

It has 5 Weapons Total, with two Attacks Each....

So far that's nothing Special, anybody can come up with 5 Unique Weapons and Two Attacks is Laughably Easy....

However.... In addition to that These Weapon's each have their own unique Variations called "Weapon Aspects" that mimic charactistics of Their Past, Future and Current Warriors (in Hades case, it's Prince Zagreus, and only him) who will ever wield them.... Changing how the Weapons Work....  

That's a pretty decent chunk of Mechanical Variety right there. Enough to sustain Player Interest for 5 Years ? Probably not but it's better than anything I've encountered in Warframe.

Ah but wait.... THERES MOAR !!! 😈

Once The Young Prince steps into the Underworld, The Olympians can further change the Behaviour of your Weapons with Boons.... At first glance it might seem like your Typical JRPG Damage Type Paint By Numbers Design Philosophy that has become prevalent since 2008 until now.... But as it turns out.... Boons are Not Different Damage Types and Enemies don't have Different Resistances and Damage Modifiers like Warframe does.... Boons let you choose how you wish that Damage to be Dealt. To Give some examples:

Poseidon's Boons are called "Tempest" these give your Attacks the ability to Push enemies Away.... Hopefully into a Trap if your lucky.... But generally you'l be slamming them repeatedly up against Walls dealing Wall Slam Damage.

Ares' Boons are called "Doom"....  These Give your Attacks... Well.... Nothing.... At first.... But After 1.8 Seconds after Attacking an enemy a Doom Blade well descend from Mount Olympus and Stab the Enemy for some Damage.... During Early Access this was the 2nd Best Ability.... For not so obvious reasons.

And Then there's my Favourite Boon from Dionysus which is called "Hangover".... To put it simply it's just a Poison Damage Over Time Effect.... Like Warframe's beloved Slash....  It's the only Stacking Damage Over Time Effect on the Entire Game... There are other DoT effects by this is the only that stacks and it's the only that has has DoT as it's Primary Function and Purpose.... Other DoT effects (such as Killing Freeze and Scintillating Feast) are just for Funsies and are not Practically Attainable. During Early Access this was Objectively The Best Boon (provided you used specific Weapons).

 

And there 5 More Boons from the other Olympians.... All with their own unique Effects.... Again.... Never offering A different Type if damage but a different method of Delivering Damage.....

And in theory they are all unique and Equal.... But in Practice.... Ares' and Dionysus have the best Boons and Malphon and Coronacht are the Best Weapons.... 

It's been a while since I've played so I don't know if that's the case anymore but yeah.... Even Hades has balance issues 😝 !!!

Still though if I were to point at a game that gives tons of Weapon Variety over a small selection... It would Be Hades....

Supergiants first game (Bastion) did this aswell.... You had about 10 Different weapons and each weapon had 5 Tiers of Upgrades that allowed you to choose between 1 of 2 Upgrades on Each Tier.... 

It's just like Warframe's Modding... Except imagine you only had 5 Mods Slots instead of 10 and only one of 2 Mods could go into Each Slot..... Yet despite this awkward limitation it gave you more Freedom to mod how you want than Warframe does since 8 of our Ten Slots are reserved for making our Weapons Actually behave like weapons 😛 !!!

 

 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

18 hours ago, Lutesque said:

So it's basically what the Soma Prime became when it became Obselete Way back then.... Which makes you wonder if there even is a much worse state than Obselete

The Soma Prime was better than the base Soma, for a while it was fun, newer weapons came out that made it obsolete.

All of that is fine.

My issue is with prime weapons launching as MR fodder.

18 hours ago, Lutesque said:

A new gimmick would have also been nice

Yes, or any of your ideas for the Astilla Prime would have been more interesting than what we got.

18 hours ago, Lutesque said:

At this rate why do Veterans want MOAR POWA anyway ? 

I'm not sure it is just that, but if that's all we get with a new prime then yes, it has to be more powerful than the base.

A new mechanic or something, anything, interesting and different about it is far better.

But they're rare. The last really good one was the Pyrana Prime in 2018.

17 hours ago, Lutesque said:

If you want an example of Weapon Variety then you could site Hades (by Supergiant Games) as an Example

I think rogue-likes have opportunities here Warframe doesn't. I love Hades' weapons options, but they are also random enough that you never quite know what your playthrough's going to be.

Rogue-likes can pull that trick off even if they're a random mess, sometimes because they're a random mess. I love Binding of Isaac when you win every roll and end up just rediculously OP.

But Warframe has persistence. I'm not sure how you make branching upgrades work, but I feel that's what mods should do... replace 'mandatory' mods with plain upgrades that boost stats, and add a whole new tier of effects and costs that are like corrupted mods crossed with augments.

 

 

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I think rogue-likes have opportunities here Warframe doesn't. I love Hades' weapons options, but they are also random enough that you never quite know what your playthrough's going to be.

Almost to the point of Frustration.... Which is why I stopped Playing it.... That and I managed to exhaust all the game's Content in 370 Escape Attempts.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

But Warframe has persistence. I'm not sure how you make branching upgrades work, but I feel that's what mods should do... replace 'mandatory' mods with plain upgrades that boost stats, and add a whole new tier of effects and costs that are like corrupted mods crossed with augments.

One can Hope ... One thing I always wanted was for DE stop with all the new content and revise everything that came before .... Which I thought they did with their whole "Warframe Revised" thing.... Turns out I was wrong.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

My issue is with prime weapons launching as MR fodder.

All I can say is I was sadly dissapointed by the Corinth Prime.... I mean.... I don't usually have an issue with Primes being MR Fodder.... Atleast I thought I didn't but when it happened to the Corinth Prime it really made me upset....

That and No Fusilai Prime 😞 !!!

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2021-06-15 at 1:29 AM, Lutesque said:

All I can say is I was sadly dissapointed by the Corinth Prime

Yeah 😥, the Corinth Prime has all the same issues of being a mediocre upgrade, but also with a pointless reload change that ruined the personality of the weapon. It's a no longer a pump action crit shotgun, but now gets a weird hatch in the top of the weapon (that isn't even on the model when it's closed) to reload? 

Better crit chance and airbust exploding on impact was all it needed, instead it got a little more status (not enough to really take advantage of), manually triggered airbust, and an awful reload that lost the weapon's personality. Who was asking for any of that? It's an abomination.

But I guess it is less boring than the Tenora Prime.

[Monolake]

Is Tenora p really bad?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

5 hours ago, Monolake said:

Is Tenora p really bad?

No, it's just really bland, which is somehow worse. It has slightly better damage, slightly better crit, slightly better status, but painfully slower secondary fire (which as it's a spin up then auto-fire makes it much harder to get headshots with it).

If you have a Tenora crit riven the base variant is better than the Prime.

[Xarvathron]

I think the disparity between high and low disposition rivens needs to be greater. A Rubico Prime user shouldn't be able to justify wasting a mod slot on the disappointing stats of a Rubico riven. Inversely, a Braton or a Lato with a riven should instantly be a great choice as an eidolon-buster.

With rivens no longer able to usefully amplify the stats of prime weapons, the devs could actually do a prime weapon rebalance, to put every prime firmly in endgame contention. And of course, the challenge to prime weapon dominance would be non-prime weapons with rivens.

Sure, people who spent a fortune chasing prime weapons and god-tier rivens may be salty about it - but they knew exactly what they were getting into. They knew the risk of future nerfs, and they chased the OP stuff anyway. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 hours ago, Xarvathron said:

I think the disparity between high and low disposition rivens needs to be greater. A Rubico Prime user shouldn't be able to justify wasting a mod slot on the disappointing stats of a Rubico riven. Inversely, a Braton or a Lato with a riven should instantly be a great choice as an eidolon-buster.

Sure, people who spent a fortune chasing prime weapons and god-tier rivens may be salty about it - but they knew exactly what they were getting into. They knew the risk of future nerfs, and they chased the OP stuff anyway. 

no.

The low end of disposition is already too low. It's not that people chase 'god rivens' for those weapons because of must-have-OP, it's that you must have a god-roll at low dispo to be worthwhile at all. Another of the many terrible toxicities of Rivens. 

They're almost unsolvable.

If you push them down and narrower then you have the mixture of slot-unviable low dispo rivens to the point where they might as well be literally removed from showing in the mod list, and base weapons still being better than their own variants because they can still make use of the Riven slot.

If you push them up and widen, you have a less toxic "god or nothing" barrier for the lowest dispositions, while still giving the high-dispo more power, but then you quickly run into the problem where a Riven becomes globally mandatory with DE obligated to balance around that power level - but we only have so many slots to hold them in.

[Xarvathron]

23 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

no.

The low end of disposition is already too low. It's not that people chase 'god rivens' for those weapons because of must-have-OP, it's that you must have a god-roll at low dispo to be worthwhile at all. Another of the many terrible toxicities of Rivens. 

They're almost unsolvable.

If you push them down and narrower then you have the mixture of slot-unviable low dispo rivens to the point where they might as well be literally removed from showing in the mod list, and base weapons still being better than their own variants because they can still make use of the Riven slot.

That''s actually the point - by pushing the effect of low-disposition rivens well into the territory of uselessness, it would be dumb to run any riven, no matter how good, on a strong low-disposition weapon. If you have a Rubico riven, you'd better put it on a non-prime Rubico. And if you end up unveiling a riven for a strong weapon like the Acceltra or Catchmoon...well, you got screwed by the RNG. Which is nothing new, or unique, or special, or even statistically noteworthy. Par for the course, really.

Inversely, every MR fodder weapon needs to be endgame-capable, when equipped with a decent to good riven.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

At the very least, DE can make augments for some of the older prime weapons.

Burston Prime, Akstiletto Prime, Akbronko Prime, Paris Prime and Soma Prime received augments from Father (with Burston being the odd one out as you get that from Arbiters of Hexis)

While the augments aren't particularly spectacular, it does more than just give Prime weapons direct upgraded stats over their originals (in most cases).

[Venus-Venera]

Am 23.6.2021 um 12:49 schrieb Xarvathron:

That''s actually the point - by pushing the effect of low-disposition rivens well into the territory of uselessness, it would be dumb to run any riven, no matter how good, on a strong low-disposition weapon. If you have a Rubico riven, you'd better put it on a non-prime Rubico. And if you end up unveiling a riven for a strong weapon like the Acceltra or Catchmoon...well, you got screwed by the RNG. Which is nothing new, or unique, or special, or even statistically noteworthy. Par for the course, really.

Inversely, every MR fodder weapon needs to be endgame-capable, when equipped with a decent to good riven.

that was supposedly also the aim of the thing. but it doesn't work at all! and there are too many single target weapons. many are also semi-auto ...

[George_PPS]

On 2021-05-26 at 10:08 AM, VoidArkhangel said:

I believe the Riven system is the problem here, if there was none at all they wouldnt mind throwing more op weapons.

You DO NOT need to use any Riven Mods if you choose to. If everyone wants to get rid of things they don't like, all we get are endless nerfs proposed by others. 

[Bakaguya-sama]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)HollowCube987 said:

At the very least, DE can make augments for some of the older prime weapons.

Burston Prime, Akstiletto Prime, Akbronko Prime, Paris Prime and Soma Prime received augments from Father (with Burston being the odd one out as you get that from Arbiters of Hexis)

While the augments aren't particularly spectacular, it does more than just give Prime weapons direct upgraded stats over their originals (in most cases).

I would rather the augment be baked into the weapon itself as a passive, without needing to cost a mod slot.  

Imagine if the Pyrana's Prime awesome passive requires an augment and cost a mod slot for it. Yuck.  

All of the above prime weapons are pretty bad. Even with the augment, they are still pretty bad. Even with the augment as passives, It's a very big maybe that they will be any good.  

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 2 horas, George_PPS dijo:

You DO NOT need to use any Riven Mods if you choose to. If everyone wants to get rid of things they don't like, all we get are endless nerfs proposed by others. 

The fact that I DONT NEED IT doesnt mean NOBODY WILL USE IT matter of fact the ones who dont use it are the minority since its a massive advantage in every build.

What I said is that DE is afraid of this chain:

New weapon with stronger stats -> One hit build -> New standard (king/queen) -> Only things related to this weapon matters -> Repeat

 

Sure you can say that this isnt a problem that rivens caused but they are the major exponents here since they follow the rule of "The rich gets richer" instead of balancing weapons as they were intended to be (where I get that from? see pre-war within devstreams they literally say the rivens are for giving weak weapons a chance to compete with the strongest ones), add it to DE's lack of skills to balance things and you have a completely random system, literally.

DE could rework the system but they seem to have a "no rework of old things excluding warframes and weapons" policy so better remove it than having it causing more problems, I hope one day they prove me wrong about this reworking all the things that need rework and make me swallow my words with systems a thousand times better I really do because my words seem so spicy but until then...

You DO NOT need to respond if you dont have anything good to say.