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A better way to handle Nightwave resets than yeeting players points. Final Shop.


Oreades
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Issues as described in this thread are going to be a persistent issue for as long as DE continues to adopt the policy of converting any unspent NW currency into game Credits during NW resets. 

I would propose a far more player friendly mechanism assuming that persistent credits will never be an option. Is to have the game present the player with a final shop upon their first login (if they have enough points to afford anything) after the previous nightwave has been ended. Once their purchases are made any remaining points are converted to credits as per usual. 

Even if that shop was purely evergreen just to simplify the coding angle. Tho it would be better if it was extended to include previous NW exclusive mods. Recurring items/cosmetics are less important. 

Because not everyone is going to be aware that NW is ending and for newer players (those who would be most effected) every forma/potato/Nitain counts and just having the points yeeted away is going to cause needless conflict. 

I'd probably also toss in a confirmation window if they try to leave without spending all (could still potentially afford something) their credits. Letting them know unspent credits will be converted when they leave. 

 

EDIT: 

I can logic my mind around someone coming into this thread and removing the internal link to a closed thread that dealt with a very valid (and inevitably cyclical grievance) that was closed because some people took the "It doesn't effect me so I don't care about you" schadenfreude angle of being terrible people. 

HOWEVER it caught my eye that I didn't recognize the thread I was in because THAT ISN'T MY TITLE. 

This is my title for the thread
"A better way to handle Nightwave resets than yeeting players points. Final Shop. "

Thank you autofill for remembering the history of things and the crux of my feedback/suggestion

This is NOT my title but what I loaded into.
"I honestly don't see any logical reason for NW credits to not carry over other than FOMO enforcement.

Now I did entertain the notion that the my thread had been merged with a loosely tangential thread except none of the replies read like I would expect had anyone started a thread with that edited title. 

Please don't change something as fundamental as the title of a thread without being accurate to the first post and owning the change.

 

Edited by Oreades
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That would be brilliant, thanks for fighting the good fight :)

While fixing things in the future is good, I do think they need to right the wrongs of the past and allow us to use our intermission 3 credits as well

Edited by Malikaith
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il y a 2 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Great suggestion, assuming unified currency isn't ever going to be a thing.

I do think this is the best and simplest solution, IDK why they insist on taking peoples credits when stuff costs the same amount next time

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This is just a comment on what I see to be a stupid situation.  I'm not salty that I missed out spending my credits from last intermission because I had nothing to spend them on anyway.  But it makes zero sense other than grind increase and FOMO enforcement to not just let them roll over.  

FOMO is a bit of a double edged sword because playing very intermittently like I currently do, coming back on to see that I've wasted 265 credits because of arbitrary spending periods would absolutely be infuriating and turn me off from continuing to play if I actually needed anything from the NW store.  Sure, it serves to keep some players regular so that they don't miss out, but anyone that can't play regularly or just doesn't want to will be turned away from constantly missing and wasting things because they're time limited.

Again, yes I am aware I had plenty of time to spend them.  Yes I am aware that I can always get more.  There is still no logical reason for them to not roll over that is also an ethical reason for them to not roll over.

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i would've said roll them over with a conversion Formula to the new Season (at a like 1/5 efficiency or something idk), but this is probably a better suggestion.

I think the issue players (from my perspective) would have with converting credits at a loss is that its still going to cause conflict because it ultimately still removes players points without giving players agency in the action.  Yeah they still get to keep some but the way I think that would play out would be a lot of "why don't I get to keep all of them, I earned those points" 

I get what DE is trying to avoid with clearing the ledger between rounds but the current issue is that there are too many variables within the present setup that can result in removing player agency in achieving that end. A final store that just happens when the game registers that the last NW they where in is not the current NW and they still have enough pts from that previous NW, lets them clear the points between rounds and guarantees player some degree of agency in that action. 

 

Edited by Oreades
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40 minutes ago, Malikaith said:

I do think this is the best and simplest solution, IDK why they insist on taking peoples credits when stuff costs the same amount next time

Honestly, unified currency is even simpler.  Or should be.   Really this proposal accomplishes almost the same thing but with a couple more steps and having no choice about when exactly to spend the legacy credits.  Although it has the advantage of letting players spend credits in between NW stores.

It really doesn't matter  to me.  If this is appealing enough to DE to get the job done, I'm all for it.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Malikaith said:

I do think this is the best and simplest solution, IDK why they insist on taking peoples credits when stuff costs the same amount next time

 

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Honestly, unified currency is even simpler.  Or should be.   Really this proposal accomplishes almost the same thing but with a couple more steps and having no choice about when exactly to spend the legacy credits.  Although it has the advantage of letting players spend credits in between NW stores.

It really doesn't matter  to me.  If this is appealing enough to DE to get the job done, I'm all for it.

there is that too, yeah. ultimately the Shop is almost always selling the same stuff anyways, so why are we even bothering to airgap this stuff. is Digital Extremes trying to kid themselves with thinking Nightwave is more grandeur than the looping chores it really is? newsflash guys: it's just a loop of the same stuff for the same stuff forever. the Seasons aren't special.

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8 hours ago, Malikaith said:

I do think this is the best and simplest solution, IDK why they insist on taking peoples credits when stuff costs the same amount next time

I think the why is that DE is gunshy when it comes to resources that potentially build up unchecked over time. Because of how the rest of the game has gone with no real persistent resource sinks to keep long term players in check. Then they can't really balance costs towards those long term players because it throws all of the new players who don't have insane stockpiles of resources. So new players kinda struggle while older players just brush off the resource costs like they're nothing. 

So undoubtedly DE has a visceral reaction to the notion of letting any new system be one where the currency can be infinitely carried over. 

 

The thing is who expunging credits hurts the most are the newer and more casual players, who are going to end up having a bad experience because of the nullification and will as such be less likely to stick with the game. 

 

There is the intent of the action and then there is what it actually accomplishes and the unintended consequences.  

I'm going to go on a tangent about companions really quick. 

So originally companions used DNA stabalizer to stave off death and that ticked down regardless of when the player was logged in. So if you didn't log into the game for a period of time your companion would strait up perma die. 

The clear intention was to use companions as an additional incentive to interact with the game more regularly. For some it worked however the unintended consequence was a lot of players (myself included) simply avoided compainions all together because of the added hassle. 

And the big unintended consequence was for returning players who then get hit with "Oh and BTW your pet is dead" welcome back. And if they are already on the fence about coming back, that is a really lousy way to encourage them to stick with it. 

Eventually, thankfully DE changed course and repurposed stabalizer into more of a buffing item and retired the companion perma death mechanic. 

 

To me this has similar questions that should be reflected upon. 

What is the goal? Does the current system accomplish the goal? what are the unintended consequences? 

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I mean... yeah.

But the devs designed Nightwave specifically to use FOMO to keep players around. 

So although removing the FOMO is definitely better for players, I don't think we can realistically expect DE to change it.

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Well said, I lost over 300 credits and I'm pissed. I haven't been able to bring myself to play the game sense, other then complaining about it in in-game chats and getting banned out of them LOL. There was insufficient notice on when NW was ending for ingame only players, and I got screwed

Edited by Malikaith
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Have you ever heard of battle passes? I have the slightest feeling that nightwave tried to do something similar to this.

if this is the intention the DE needs to remove the credits from the accounts and advise them of this mechanic. I also have a lot of credits from previous nightwaves and events, seeing them in account is sad as I wasn't paying attention.

I can sell them but this should be automatic after every nightwave. it's just a thought.

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If Nightwave cred carried over I'd be sitting on several thousand cred with nothing to spend it on, I only spend it at the end of the season on things like potatoes because I might as well not let it go to waste. I don't need any of the Nightwave cred offerings. That's probably why it resets, to keep players playing Nightwave because folks like me wouldn't bother to rank up past 30 if we had a massive nest-egg of hoarded cred to sit on.

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Well to answer the specific question; Nightwave Credits don't carry over because DE often add new things into the Nightwave Store at the beginning and use those as the proverbial 'carrot' to get people to play along with the tasks.

If Credits carried over, a player who farmed to the limit of the 'prestige' levels would just be able to grab all of those at the beginning without engaging with the game at all.

The non-engagement factor is exactly why DE brought in Nightwave, to give players a daily reward to chase.

It's not to increase Grind, not specifically, although Grind is a result of engaging with the game since the game features Grind as a mechanism.

What DE implemented was a structure of saying 'Here, if you go do specific things in game, you get rewarded beyond the basic mission rewards and drops'. You go out of your way to do Warframe things in Warframe that maybe you woudn't, like mod a gun for Cold instead of Viral, or open lockers when you have millions of Resources and don't need to open lockers anymore. And it's just something to do. Sometimes it's a little more challenging, like capturing a Hydrolyst, which not a lot of players can do, but it's still just playing Warframe for the rewards and a little extra reward on top.

So that's why Credits don't carry over, which is specifically to keep players engaging with the game, and more of the game than many would bother to do normally. And if Credits carried over, the players would stop engaging until they needed more.

Exactly the same way that players stop engaging with any of the content in Warframe. Don't need Endo and have all the Mods and cosmetics from the Arbitrations Store? Stop playing Arbitrations until you do. Don't need the Vandal weapons or Focus from ESO anymore? Stop playing ESO until you do, regular SO is great for ranking Warframes up in a group instead, and less boring than Hydron. Don't need Protea or the Weapons or Cosmetics from the Granum Void? Stop playing that until you want a Sister to spawn... but if you have all the Weapons from Sisters, and don't want any more Ephemera, then stop playing that again too.

Keeping Credits from rolling over just means that you need to keep playing if you want things. And... I can see why players would think this brings on FOMO...

However... I fail to see how there's really any FOMO on this system, because over the years DE have literally removed the ability to miss out on Credits if you actually engage with the system. After you complete all the tasks of the specific ranks (1000, 4500 and 7000 respectively) you retrieve the tasks that you haven't completed yet, and so on all the way back to the beginning of the Season.

So you never actually miss out on anything as long as you're actively engaging.

I mean... there's players that 'Lose 300 Credits and get pissed' who I completely don't understand.

I cannot see why you would ever stock-pile credits at all, because nothing in the Store costs more than 75. You can literally spend the Credits piece-meal and never miss out on anything, meaning that there's no fear of missing out as long as you're just playing the game.

You don't even need to play it regularly because of the catch-up function...

Even if you don't want any of the specific cosmetics or mods, there's things that you can purchase to make your life easier, like potatoes, Kuva and even grab a Beacon for farming old content like the Wolf Sledge, or the Vitrica if you missed that.

So losing Credits is just so pointless, why would you bother to try and hoard them? You never need to keep them because there's always going to be more, and they'll always take the same amount of engagement in the game to earn.

Honestly...

I think anyone that calls this a ridiculous system isn't thinking about it at all, they're just complaining because they think they missed out on something that they didn't even want.

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FOMO is, unfortunately, the basis of any battle pass system, which also describes Nightwave. The point of time-sensitive bonuses like Nightwave challenges, daily login rewards, and so on is to make players jump into the game on a regular basis and consistently boost its player statistics, by giving the player chances that will be missed if they don't do something within a relatively short time window. I too would like Warframe to drop these systems, because relying on FOMO is tacky and manipulative, but that I think unfortunately depends entirely on how much revenue those systems help contribute.

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