It's time to nerf Wukong

[Koed]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Even then that would still be preferable to the current meta.

Players ""needing"" to use grouping abilities to clear out rooms at least leaves more room for other players to engage with enemies than spamming an AOE weapon does. Just consider the classic issue with Nidus of players killing his Larva pulls before he can for stacks.

That said your solutions are nonsensical. There are missions that don't require killing enemies already and it doesn't matter as enemies grant rewards for being killed thus every mission always incentivizes killing things. And nuke abilities always have been and will continue to be nuke abilities, changing AOE weapons doesn't mean suddenly abilities are bad.

 

The game certainty needs more than just nerfing AOE weapons. But an adequate nerf to them is a considerable step in the correct direction.

Cmon, u know Im talking about meta and meta missions. Exterminate, Survival, Defense etc. Missions that you want to complete asap to increase rewards etc. Ofc I know other missions exists, but if it doesn't require killing, then its pointless to talk about, cause any frame and loadout can complete it then. 

I seriously don't know what you mean, when you say nuke abilities. Ember? Sure you can kill normal Star Chart, but above that, no frame comes to mind that can easily nuke. Hence why grouping is the best we got. 

And for the record - Im not saying "dont nerf aoe weapons".

[Koed]

3 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

The only time I use grouping abilities is to pull enemies from consoles on Interception. So I didn't really experience this shift you are talking about.

I can't be certain of course, but there is definitely a possibility you are confusing your own preferred playstyle with how everyone plays the game.

Scenario: You play Steel Path Survival so you want to have as high KPS as possible. Lets say we are post AOE nerf and they are not viable anymore. How do you achieve said high kps?

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 minutes ago, Koed said:

You seriously wanna make the argument, that because we didn't have AOE meta during Mag Polarize map clearing days or Equinox Maim days, then it won't happen now?

Nope, I wanna make the argument that throughout the entire history of Warframe, right up until the point when the AoE meta became a thing, every frame was not the same thing.  Which is very compelling evidence that post AoE all frames will still not be the same thing.

With respect, the argument you made to suggest that grouping would be the next big thing isn't very strong (more on that shortly), so without a compelling argument to explain why things will shift to be different than they were before, history provides us with the best estimate available.

3 hours ago, Koed said:

no frame really has any strong AOE damage abilities atm

This just isn't true.  And it's the only real argument you made as to why grouping would need to be a thing, which wouldn't be a very strong argument even if the premise was true because it doesn't explore/negate any of the other possible strategies.

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, Koed said:

Like I stated in above post - you can't compare it, because its 2 completely different games. Every frame wasn't the same, because they had OP abilities. But we can't do greedy mag today. We can't do Excal Jav map clear. We can't do negative duration Saryn.

It's totally the same game. We can't do Greedy Mag but we can do Tether Vauban or Spam Khora. We can't do Excal Jav but we can do Maimquinox or Inferno Ember. We can't do Negative Saryn but we can do... Saryn. Spamming OP abilities is better than ever

[Koed]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

This just isn't true.  And it's the only real argument you made as to why grouping would need to be a thing, which wouldn't be a very strong argument even if the premise was true because it doesn't explore/negate any of the other possible strategies.

Name me 1 ability that can nuke and kill efficiently 30 min into Steel Path. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

Just now, Koed said:

Name me 1 ability that can nuke and kill efficiently 30 min into Steel Path. 

Spores

[Koed]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's totally the same game. We can't do Greedy Mag but we can do Tether Vauban or Spam Khora. We can't do Excal Jav but we can do Maimquinox or Inferno Ember. We can't do Negative Saryn but we can do... Saryn. Spamming OP abilities is better than ever

You just described what Im saying - the grouping meta. And Maimquinox And Ember doesn't really work efficiently anymore and requires heavy setup to work (there's a reason you don't see them around)  and Saryn is not nuking either - you'll get to a point where your spores will kill, then they don't spread, drop in damage and can no longer kill. Repeat.

[cute_moth.npc]

1 minute ago, Koed said:

Scenario: You play Steel Path Survival so you want to have as high KPS as possible. Lets say we are post AOE nerf and they are not viable anymore. How do you achieve said high kps?

If it's even adjusted so it doesn't clear spawns without players seeing anything anymore but it's still perfectly viable then it is far from dead? They would have to COMPLETELY RUIN it so make it non viable.. Even if they deleted Primed Firestorm, added line of sight and nerfed the top meta guns it would still be competitive.

I would achieve KPS to do survival through any number of means!

Titania DPS or CC builds (I use this a lot right now)

Protea's Blaze Artillery kills in Steel Path easily

So does Mesa, so does Khora, so does my Vermisplicer, so does Nataruk, so does Arca Plasmor, so does melee, there's way more than just using grouping even though grouping is nice.. it's just like.. You literally don't need a 14 meter through walls unlimited ammo no drawbacks gun to make it through a survival run, it's just an easy crutch.

Warframe players are seriously apt to fall back on hyperbole whenever they start panicking about a change. They aren't going to just nuke your AoE into the ground so that all of your weapons are useless lol.

[Koed]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Spores

Quoting myself "...and Saryn is not nuking either - you'll get to a point where your spores will kill, then they don't spread, drop in damage and can no longer kill. Repeat." So it's the best you/we got, but when it ramps up enough to kill, it breaks and you have to reapply, the damage is now too low to kill. Your weapons are doing all the killing.

[ant99999]

4 minutes ago, Koed said:

Scenario: You play Steel Path Survival so you want to have as high KPS as possible. Lets say we are post AOE nerf and they are not viable anymore. How do you achieve said high kps?

Oh, it's simple. I don't play SP survivals past 20 minutes anyway. And I am fairly certain that I am not the only player in Warframe who doesn't do it.

Even more, there are players who don't do Steel Path at all. But the AoE meta exists for them as well.

It is easy to understand why DE don't really take into consideration things like Steel Path Survivals too much. That's because those who play them are very few, and they try to balance the game around how average gameplay looks like.

[(PSN)Unstar]

9 minutes ago, Koed said:

Quoting myself "...and Saryn is not nuking either - you'll get to a point where your spores will kill, then they don't spread, drop in damage and can no longer kill. Repeat." So it's the best you/we got, but when it ramps up enough to kill, it breaks and you have to reapply, the damage is now too low to kill. Your weapons are doing all the killing.

With proper management of Spores it doesn't break; you can manually lower your stacks to keep it dealing the level of damage you want it to.  Miasma allows the final damage ticks to spread the Spores.

[Koed]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

With proper management of Spores it doesn't break; you can manually lower your stacks to keep it dealing the level of damage you want it to.

There are 2 states in Warframe. Alive and dead. What you are describing might kill some fodder enemies, but if you manage your spores to not ramp up to break, then they are not killing and then it's not a nuking ability but more of a "weaken every enemy around you" ability. So I stand by my statement. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 minutes ago, Koed said:

There are 2 states in Warframe. Alive and dead. What you are describing might kill some fodder enemies, but if you manage your spores to not ramp up to break, then they are not killing and then it's not a nuking ability but more of a "weaken every enemy around you" ability. So I stand by my statement. 

It sounds like you're trying to sweep Saryn under the rug on a technicality.  What exactly is your argument where grouping is meaningfully more effective at kills-per-second than Saryn?  Because I don't care how you label Saryn, I care about the soundness of the argument.

[TARINunit9]

32 minutes ago, Koed said:

Saryn is not nuking either - you'll get to a point where your spores will kill, then they don't spread, drop in damage and can no longer kill. Repeat.

Spores lose maybe 20% damage when you need to recast, not drop to zero. Their kill rate with Toxic Lash Miasma is insane from minute one all the way to extraction

34 minutes ago, Koed said:

You just described what Im saying - the grouping meta. 

Yes, that's what I said in my first comment: that the grouping AoE ability spam meta has been here for a decade, not a new thing created by AoE weapons

[Koed]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

It sounds like you're trying to sweep Saryn under the rug on a technicality.  What exactly is your argument where grouping is meaningfully more effective at kills-per-second than Saryn?  Because I don't care how you label Saryn, I care about the soundness of the argument.

Im not, really. I love Saryn because she is the one outlier, that like you said has some meaningful aoe damage. My argument is simply that since Spores don't exactly reliable kill, then the 1000-10000dmg p/sec doesn't really matter, because whether the enemy is at low health or full health, it takes one shot to kill them. Thats my argument. Way way late when 1 shot no longer kills full hp targets, the Spore damage is very welcome. 

[ReddyDisco]

Nerfs or changes haven't been officially announced yet, just some quote from reddit, and already aoe gang are loosing their minds. Will have more than enough salt for my popcorn soon

[kamisama85]

Before people go off on a tangent, let's take a moment to remember AOE is not limited to weapons only. The warframe team mentioned reviewing AOE related discussion, and that includes warframe abilities too.

With that said, the primary reasoning provided about AOE weapons so far tends to be 'muh feelings and pride got hurt because I cant shine in a pub'. 

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Koed said:

Cmon, u know Im talking about meta and meta missions. Exterminate, Survival, Defense etc. Missions that you want to complete asap to increase rewards etc. Ofc I know other missions exists, but if it doesn't require killing, then its pointless to talk about, cause any frame and loadout can complete it then. 

"Missions you want to complete asap to increase rewards" is every mission. And the same three primary weapons are dominating the entire game (except maybe Eidolon hunts), not just the three mission types you're citing. This is because the current AoE meta is relevant virtually everywhere in the game -- even in situations where you don't have to kill enemies, you're still going to because they drop exp and loot. It is worth talking about, because even in let's say an Excavation, it's still way easier to nuke a room in one click without aiming than using any other weapon, and in letting that dominate, the game has pushed a lot of its content to obscurity. That should be fixed.

2 hours ago, Koed said:

Sure you can kill normal Star Chart, but above that, no frame comes to mind that can easily nuke.

Yeah, that's clearly intentional. Over the years, DE has specifically nerfed things that meet all three of these criteria:

• deletes rooms full of higher-level enemies
• quick and spammable
• low/no interactivity

They evidently don't want one thing to be able to do all the work by itself. It's why Miasma is disappointing unless layered over Spores, as well as numerous other changes they've made to the game (I got more examples if you need em). The pattern is pretty obvious. If one piece of gear (be it a weapon or Warframe) solves the mission with 1-2 inputs while being minimally engaging, it's getting a nerf at some point.

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, Koed said:

 

I do think there is a meta problem (by meta I mean the most efficient way to kill groups of enemies), but I think it's bigger than just AOE being strong - it's also our damage abilities being too weak.

Nope.... Those Are Both Symptoms of an even Larger Problem....

Warframe is way too Kill Focused....

Perhaps if we had more Missions where killing wasn't Necessary....

5 hours ago, Koed said:

with heavy restrictions like cooldowns, long animations/charge up mechanic or enourmous energy cost.

Abilities are already Like this.... 👀

6 hours ago, Koed said:

give us an alternative for killing lots of enemies.

I really don't want to Kill Lots of Enemies.... Have you seen the Mission Results Screen after 8 Zones of ESO ?

Don't you get tired of killing $@#& Non-Stop 🤔 ?

 

[Numerikuu]

4 hours ago, vanaukas said:

The AOE bros are loosing their minds already and the nerfs aren't here yet, start gathering popcorns because we are about to watch new saltiness levels.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

DE has already introduced "pulse fields" where our Warframes can't operate, thus stripping us of our weapons until we take out the source with our AMP during Zariman missions.

It's probably within their ability to introduce an "E-jammer" field where explosives can't explode, so until we take out the "Jammer" within the group, AOE weapons are a glorified Nerf gun with piddly non-explosive darts.

[Ghogiel]

Ogris was the OG AOE meta. Then iirc Tonkor. Then Simulor. There's been some odd little ones in the mix. But one thing is true they all have come and gone. Besides little bursts of things like the hek sniper, boltor/soma primes, acrid, hell even max reach whips and spin to win meta are basically AOE in their own way, and so on.
Be it guns or WF powers, AOE has been more the meta than not for nearly 10 years.

 

It goes a bit beyond just primaries. The game has also changed in ways to promote the use of AOE as well. Theres been all kinds of reworks that do the oposite of selling people on slow single target killing, and there isn't much to help here without reversing course on a lot of WFs design paradigm.

[Gree26]

I like AOE weapons and think they are good for the game if implemented correctly. One think I don’t want to see is damage reduction on AOE weapons. Just imagine having to stand there and shoot into a crowd over and over again with the tonkor. Not my idea of fun. 
what I would like to see is an introduction of a new ammo type. AOE weapons are in able to benefit from universal ammo and can only get ammo from this ammo type. Make that new ammo drop rare and enemies don’t drop it if killed by an AOE weapon. Also the ammo carry amount for AOE weapons would be greatly reduced. They could even buff AOE weapons if the ammo is rare enough. 
this way it sort of forces you to use a secondary weapon or melee to farm that ammo. 
Anyway, tell me what you guys think and what you would like to see as it seems that AOE weapons are in the crosshairs for a nerf. 
 

EDIT 1: I forgot to mention that ammo mutation should be disabled for them

EDIT 2: Some people appear to not be aware but DE has said they are going to take a look at and address the AOE meta. This is not a call to nerf AOE but rather a call to not make AOE unplayable. 

[0_The_F00l]

Ammo mutation exists ,

Your recommendations are dead on arrival.

[gamingchair1121]

obviously line of sight and probably more falloff need to be added but something that would make aoe a lot more fun and less braindead is the aoe only happens if the shot hits a target. it will add reward to aiming instead of just shooting at the floor like a braindead monkey. I still think think some amount of aoe should happen if you miss, just not 100% of it (maybe 10-25%).