Should in-game chat-moderation rules be adjusted?

[SpicyDinosaur]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Opinion: permanent bans should never not have an appeal process. 

I agree with this. DE doesn't seem to have any sort of appeals process, and even getting honesty from them (in more than just this) is worse than pulling teeth. If a mistake was made you shouldn't be punished for it.

 

3 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Gay is not inherently pejorative or derogatory, though. But the chat bots give zero F's and the actual mods may or may not ban you for it too. 

What do you think would happen if I said "my father doesnt approve of me being gay." In chat? 

It's not, but it can be. Determining when it is being used that way or not is not really something the bots will be able to figure out. This is where an appeals process would come in, I think. 

 

Also, names etc that were created pre-zero tolerance really should be required to be changed but also not involve a permanent ban. I still remember the Russian player who had his account perma-banned because he had stalin in his name. But the character was made with that name prior to the new policy. Also, while I've definitely heard of names with Hitler being a problem in other communities, and for good reason, I've never heard of Stalin being an issue. I'm not trying to downplay the horrible acts of Stalin, to be clear, but how was he even supposed to know that would be a problem?

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I agree with this. DE doesn't seem to have any sort of appeals process, and even getting honesty from them (in more than just this) is worse than pulling teeth. If a mistake was made you shouldn't be punished for it.

 

It's not, but it can be. Determining when it is being used that way or not is not really something the bots will be able to figure out. This is where an appeals process would come in, I think. 

 

Also, names etc that were created pre-zero tolerance really should be required to be changed but also not involve a permanent ban. I still remember the Russian player who had his account perma-banned because he had stalin in his name. But the character was made with that name prior to the new policy. Also, while I've definitely heard of names with Hitler being a problem in other communities, and for good reason, I've never heard of Stalin being an issue. I'm not trying to downplay the horrible acts of Stalin, to be clear, but how was he even supposed to know that would be a problem?

I am of two minds on the Russia thing. I think at the end of the day, it has to do with a lot of politics in Russia region that DE doesn't really have time for or want to address. I've heard a lot of issues specific to Russia that nowhere else really deals with. There is a ton of politics, and it is my understanding he was mass reported by people trying to hurt his clan. I do think it was weird they didn't let him change it at all, and it makes me think there was something more going on behind the scenes in terms of clan politics/versus support/people who reported etc, then we aren't being told for privacy reasons. Maybe I'm wrong though.

However, there is also the issue of how offensive it is, and that's kind of a weird issue. Stalin's Gulag's WERE brutal, many, many people died, and yet they don't get compared to concentration camps from Hitler (imagine if THAT was someone's name), because Stalin's country was part of the allies, and also because Slavic people, who were most of those who ended up in the Gulag's, tend to not be the easily offended or triggered type. I know their language, and culture I learned it in college and studied with some Russian kids whose parents had taught them the verbal language, but not the written form. They are a culture born and raised through struggle and hardship, and aren't used to complaining, or being sensitive about things. So, that's why I say I think there was some serious politics going on with all of that and we may never know the full story, because to say, name a character the axis version of that likely would have got a permanent ban with no appeal even before the zero tolerance policy. But slavic culture doesn't really have the same relationship with the gulags that Europeans do with the concentration camps of the Nazi's in terms of the visceral reaction. 

If anything it was black humor, as in Russia specifically, they have been trying to rehabilitate Stalin's image for years, so most people would not really be offended by that within Russia region. 

[L3512]

9 hours ago, Zimzala said:

The DE chat moderation is simply another form of conservative outlook forced on others through a corporate front, I am fully aware of it, to stay in business this is the choice they think they have to make.

Pretty sure the non use of the word gay is not because DE is too conservative lol, as their chat bot can't filter context the word gay is off-limits in case people use it in a negative way.

Don't think it's the conservatives getting offended by people using the word as such.

 

4 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Banning the word gay, makes it a dirty word. I hate that. I hate that very much.

Well that's what happens when people try to make an environment where no one is offended, If you have a problem with it ask DE to change it though that would open the door for trolls and such. By un-banning the word gay, people will have to be prepared to see things that might offend them so anyone with a stake in the matter had best talk it over.

Personally I can't foresee the word bothering me any any capacity so that basically excludes me from that chat lol.

 

7 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

This weapon naming thing is clearly volatile. Almost everyone agrees that DE's weapon name was inflammatory.

To be fair I think it's mainly misplaced as anyone here can call a weapon the same name, to find out if it's true hypocrisy we'd need to report someone for it and see what happen.

Anyone willing to volunteer their account?

[(PSN)max141064]

4 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I still remember the Russian player who had his account perma-banned because he had stalin in his name.

No, he was banned because his nickname was literally "StalinGulag". 

that is quite literally a concentration camp. 

[MqToasty]

12 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

This weapon naming thing is clearly volatile. Almost everyone agrees that DE's weapon name was inflammatory. I suggest you guys/gals/non-binaries just put each other in mute. I think the priority is that players' opinions can differ in what constitutes content that is inappropriate (like how some people get really upset over the word "moist").

I just wanted to gather suggestions and ideas about potential ways DE could moderate without false-positives causing bans and not come out looking hypocritical.

  Hide contents

And as a separate topic for a separate thread: I believe 'seed' is an acceptable term to refer to one's progeny. I can see how others would misunderstand its meaning under a vulgar context.

Reason: the bible's use of the expression "seed=progeny" is well documented.

I don't really understand your position.  Are you saying that "moist" and "seed" should be added to the blacklist because some people are offended by it?  My opinion on this issue you raised is based on two assumptions:

1. DE is unwilling / unable to staff an army of human moderators to hand-check everything, so they leave the automated checking to bots and only hand-check player reports.

2. Even with the current state-of-the-art, bots are still unable to divine context (even humans are not always able to).  So the best they can do is create a blacklist of restricted words / letter sequences and do simple substring matching.

With these assumptions, I really do not view "Crumbguzzler" as hypocritical.  Yes, it is absolutely innuendo, but there is no way for a bot (and even some humans) to catch it.  Now if they were able to name their weapon "Circumventer", or if they were allowed to keep "Crumbguzzler" despite a tsunami of reports I would agree it is hypocrisy, but where do you find hypocrisy in "Crumbguzzler"?

[SkyDarkbomber]

Nothing like having a cup of tea watching people get offended over "StalinGulag", "Gay", "[Some warframe] is a trap" ect

Seriously, this whole "zero tolerance" policy is doing much more harm than good, first it made people more sensitive which in turns stoke the fire of the trolls and for them creating new word/phrases that is supposedly "offensive," and the cycle repeat with more people eventually demanding more stupid word that anyone wouldn't be offended by in the real world to be banned, 

See how bad that seems? it's a lose-lose situation, the best thing to do in this situation is just to ignore these type of people(trolls), there's a "ignore" button for a reason. Heavily punishing those who use that word/phrases is just adding flame to the fire. Simply deleting the massage instead of insta-banning them is already more than enough as a detterant.

Again, just to be clear i am not supporting harrasment, those kind of offense should be heavily punished, but installing these censorship to avoid people getting upset over the most minute thing is a bad idea

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

No, he was banned because his nickname was literally "StalinGulag". 

that is quite literally a concentration camp. 

yes I literally know that. (That it was a concentration camp, not that that was his name.) That's commie history tyvm, and it's good to know if you are one because the kind of people that think gulags weren't "that bad" and Stalin was an up right guy are called tankies, and they are gross.

 

He was well known though, and I think (emphasis on think) that he was involved in things where DE was able to see his name a number of times. 

 

That said, StalinGulag is worse than I originally thought, somewhere along the lines of Auschwitz and GuantanamoBay. In that case it would depend entirely upon whether or not they had intentionally let it slide pre-zero tolerance. Not that they would admit that, because DE is dishonest about most interactions with the playerbase and policies more often than not. However, this is one of those interactions where they can't talk about it because of policy as well.

 

It's funny, I volunteered for a MUD ages ago, and the stuff players would say they were punished for versus the actual situation was night and day. And there was nothing we could do to make an argument wrt what actually happened. 

[(PSN)max141064]

2 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

Nothing like having a cup of tea watching people get offended over "StalinGulag", "Gay", "[Some warframe] is a trap" ect

Honestly the only ones that whine about "censorship" are only the ones that want to use those terms to insult people.

it's quite funny to read people basically demanding DE to let them be as*holes. lol

[SkyDarkbomber]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

Honestly the only ones that whine about "censorship" are only the ones that want to use those terms to insult people.

And would it be true if the one who supports these kind of sterile safe space to be a snowflake? :D

 

4 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

it's quite funny to read people basically demanding DE to let them be as*holes. lol

False, i just want them to be more reasonable with the moderation, harsh punishment & the bad side effects that comes with it, do you even read?

[SpicyDinosaur]

2 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

And would it be true if the one who supports these kind of sterile safe space to be a snowflake? :D

 

False, i just want them to be more reasonable with the moderation, harsh punishment & the bad side effects that comes with it, do you even read?

The people mentioned by the previous poster are the most delicate of snowflakes, tbh.

[(PSN)max141064]

1 minute ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

And would it be true if the one who supports these kind of sterile safe space to be a snowflake?

oh, so this is the problem? the "snowflakes". 

not that people use those terms to actually get at people, but the snowflakes... lol

[SkyDarkbomber]

1 minute ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

oh, so this is the problem? the "snowflakes". 

not that people use those terms to actually get at people, but the snowflakes... lol

 

4 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

The people mentioned by the previous poster are the most delicate of snowflakes, tbh.

So are you two gonna keep going with this or what? you haven't mentioned the points i've made in the post. My advice is to probably takle my argument first before saying some nonsense.

[(PSN)max141064]

28 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

As for the Snowflakes becoming a problem, yes i indeed think it is a problem, not the whole picture but they're the one of the people fueling the fire that is the troll

the "nezha is a trap" epidemic is not going to happen if people would ignore it, just like the saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never break me"

Nha, the truth here is not this, the problem is that you're STILL mad that you got a chat suspension for "gey people".

wich it's fine, but the answer is not to let people say whatever they want because of "people should not be offended if i offend them, it's the internet!". 

 

19 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

The people whom are responsible for, and labelled that term, go out of their way to deliberately avoid using all the tools they have at their disposal to deal with the problem themselves (aka, block, ignore, etc) and instead choose to do the opposite. And, sadly, instead of enforcing self-reliance and teaching people to be more hardy and strong--that they HAVE these powers--we have instead decided to go down the opposite route, encouraging the victim to not take back and use the power they have, to act emotional, irrational, and full of hate.

The exact opposite.

people use the tools they have, they report you. 

and DE will ban or suspend you for this...why? because it's their game and it's a proper way to live like a normal person to not say the worst sh*t ever just because "What? i usually say those things with my friends, it's them that need to learn how to take a joke!" 

it's not people with a normal and safe vocabulary that need to be put in a bubble or should be kept in another place, it's people that like to troll or like to be as*holes that should learn how to be a normal person and suffer the consequences of their actions. 

[Numerikuu]

Just now, (PSN)max141064 said:

The exact opposite.

people use the tools they have, they report you. 

and DE will ban or suspend you for this...why? because it's their game and it's a proper way to live like a normal person to not say the worst sh*t ever just because "What? i usually say those things with my friends, it's them that need to learn how to take a joke!" 

it's not people with a normal and safe vocabulary that need to be put in a bubble or should be kept in another place, it's people that like to troll or like to be as*holes that should learn how to be a normal person and suffer the consequences of their actions. 

Ah, I should have added more context since I was speaking more in the vein of outside the game, which led to how we're here today in regards to extreme censorship, double standards, etc. Need more coffee 🙃

Besides that, agreed 100%

[SkyDarkbomber]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

Nha, the truth here is not this, the problem is that you're STILL mad that you got a chat suspension for "gey people".

wich it's fine, but the answer is not to let people say whatever they want because of "people should not be offended if i offend them, it's the internet!". 

I would be quite upset actually, my ticket hasn't been answered for a whole 2 days, 

Oh and look what it is, ignoring my argument and decided to trash talk me over unrelated stuff,

EDIT: sorry, haven't read the second line, here's my thought, you can't change the enviroment/people around you, you have to adapt. That's how nature work my friend.

For you it's a hell of a lot easier, no evolution trough random chance or anything, just click the "Ignore" button!

[(PSN)max141064]

2 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

Oh and look what it is, ignoring my argument and decided to trash talk me over unrelated stuff,

My friend...all you did in this thread is trash talking people that don't think like you do. 

All you did is saying that people that report and people that got offended by trolls and as*holes that use specific terms to insult them are the problem and should be ashamed in themselves. 

just because YOU probably don't have a reason or are a person that can be made fun of just because you're not gay, trans, black, asian, non-binary, with a different pronoun, etc etc. 

We can talk about the fact that the bot suspended you because you had the "gey" typo, that's fine and that's actually a good and interesting discussion to have. 

But telling people that they should all get over themselves and accept any kind of insults just because you got that suspension is out of this world. 

 no, out of this universe. 

 

[SkyDarkbomber]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

My friend...all you did in this thread is trash talking people that don't think like you do. 

Sorry what's that? when did i trashtalk on this thread other than after being agrevated by you, maybe the lines "Nothing like having a cup of tea watching people get offended over "StalinGulag", "Gay", "[Some warframe] is a trap" ect" but other than that, i have no clue myself

19 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

All you did is saying that people that report and people that got offended by trolls and as*holes that use specific terms to insult them are the problem and should be ashamed in themselves. 

just because YOU probably don't have a reason or are a person that can be made fun of just because you're not gay, trans, black, asian, non-binary, with a different pronoun, etc etc. 

We can talk about the fact that the bot suspended you because you had the "gey" typo, that's fine and that's actually a good and interesting discussion to have. 

But telling people that they should all get over themselves and accept any kind of insults just because you got that suspension is out of this world. 

 no, out of this universe. 

 

 For all of this, i said many times that i don't support someone being harassed or made fun of, 

I see it as DE having a zero tolerance policy, which made those type of word to have much more meaning by the way, and for the trolls to further abuse them. Not to mention the harsh punishment someone face when their crime is as meaningless as a typo.  

Let me be clear so i could drill it onto your skull, i'm not advocating for people to insult others, instead it is simply my opinion on how people could combat actual harassment, ignore them, i've been called names on the internet in the past, even bullying for that matter, and you know what i did? i ignored them, it is the most effective tool to combat it  Instead of crying to DE and for them to ban a word, which would cause an endless chain reaction i already explained in the previous post

You seemed to always paint me as the bad guy, maybe if you actually read what i said then maybe you could get a different FOV :)

why do i agree to sign up on this website anyways.

[(PSN)max141064]

11 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

For all of this, i said many times that i don't support someone being harassed or made fun of, 

So you don't support that but at the same time you want to be able to say those things? come on...

12 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

I see it as DE having a zero tolerance policy, which made those type of word to have much more meaning by the way

Nha, dude. don't play the "they made it have more meaning" card. it's an old stinky card that doesn't work and will never work. 

going arround saying n-word this, n-word that is not a thing that "if you ignore it will disappear". it NEEDS to be punished. 

And this is onle ONE example. Again, just because YOU are not offended by that, it doesn't mean that it should be used because "hey, it's internet lingo". because it's not, it's as*hole lingo. 

18 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

i'm not advocating for people to insult others, instead it is simply my opinion on how people could combat actual harassment, ignore them, i've been called names on the internet in the past, even bullying for that matter, and you know what i did? i ignored them

No, you're advocating for not advocating. and that is as bad as being one of these trolls. 

Doing nothing resolves nothing. nobody will stop being an as*hole just because it is ignored, instead it will go even bigger next time! 

why? because ignoring is just that. ignoring someone that should be punished. 

20 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

Instead of crying to DE and for them to ban a word, which would cause an endless chain reaction i already explained in the previous post

You seemed to always paint me as the bad guy, maybe if you actually read what i said then maybe you could get a different FOV :)

why do i agree to sign up on this website anyways.

Do i need to repeat myself? i already wrote that just up.

 

on the "why am i here" it's for you to tell us, if your solution is "boys will be boys" and "nhaaaaa, it's just them having fun" you can literally go. because here people would like to do SOMETHING about the problem. 

not getting rid of the rules just because you can't for the life of you avoid certain words or CHECK what you write in a chat. 

 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

The people mentioned by the previous poster are the most delicate of snowflakes, tbh.

People upset about videogame chat moderation are the biggest snowflakes of all. 

It's literally a non issue to the rest of us. I don't understand how they don't get this. 

[TeaHands]

1 hour ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

Oh and look what it is, ignoring my argument and decided to trash talk me over unrelated stuff,

 

1 hour ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

EDIT: sorry, haven't read the second line

This thread is pure gold

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

What ever happened to the saying 'sticks and stones' eh? It's become a rather sad sight these days, and worrying for the future.

Words have and will always only ever hold power over you... if you allow them to.

This is what the bulk of my metaphors was getting at, honestly.
 

_{(Note: impersonal 'you' follows, not pointing this at anyone in particular)}

Maybe your personal circumstances make you sensitive to a word, but if that knife isn't being brandished at you, don't jump into it just because it's present. Remove yourself from where it's being used if you cannot weather its use. Find personal support for personal problems.

Don't succumb to false dichotomy fallacy. To say 'people shouldn't take offense so easily, or remove themselves if upset' is not to say 'don't be offended by anything ever, and let people break the Golden Rule with reckless abandon'. Manual reports would still exist for clear and egregious toxicity even if you accept that personal responsibility.

 

The 'Nezha classic' is a very telling example of the issue. That same 'offensive' word was also used to fetishise and as a term of endearment for a thing long before anyone decided their issues made it a problem and nobody could use it in any way.
But thanks to personal problems being pushed to public, if someone were to say "I like to play 'that frame' and set 'an ambush' for enemies with the Firewalker trail" - using the relevant words - they'd probably be gone for making a perfectly innocuous statement and never know why. You can try to call it 'obscuring the offense', but that's your prejudice when it's a valid conceit.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Ooooor,

You could just stick with talking about video games and other light topics and talk about other stuff like that on discord or Reddit. ;D

[LillyRaccune]

4 hours ago, MqToasty said:

I don't really understand your position.  Are you saying that "moist" and "seed" should be added to the blacklist because some people are offended by it?  My opinion on this issue you raised is based on two assumptions:

......

Yes, it is absolutely innuendo, ...... but where do you find hypocrisy in "Crumbguzzler"?

No I do not think that moist/seed should be added to the blacklist, I meant that the situation is volatile because different people have different "no-no words".

The overall purpose here is to see if we, as a collective, have a solution to being unintentionally game banned. So far the only "solutions" I have come up with are: disable chat, invent magical Kickbot AI, or just don't be stupid. I am not happy with this list, but the thread isn't providing other answers yet.

Are DE hypocrites because they had a weapon named something silly? No. Is it naughty? A little bit. If they kept doing things like that and showing it off or if someone specifically gets banned for using the name Crumbguzzler, that would indicate some amount of hypocrisy.

This issue is being brought up because, as a business, DE is expected to hold to the same (or higher) Exemplary Tenno-ness that is expected of us.

Spoiler

Off topic: I don't like seeing the Team drinking beer/alcohol during the streams because I think it is unprofessional. But it isn't actually against any rules, so it's just a personal feeling I have.

That's an example of conduct I can't hold the staff members accountable for.

 

[MqToasty]

1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

No I do not think that moist/seed should be added to the blacklist, I meant that the situation is volatile because different people have different "no-no words".

I very much agree that the situation can be volatile -- DE, like just about any other game/platform owner out there, is trying find that fine balance between allowing free expression and ensuring another player's day is not ruined by said free expression.  Their blacklist implies that they are trying to adopt mainstream general community norms, and I can bet you their mods are constantly adding to the list if they start receiving an abundance of complaints for new words and phrases.

The thing is, societies, communities and language all evolve through time.  For example, I bet most on this forum won't be able to tell you what a "doxy" is, but apparently a few centuries ago it was a pretty serious insult:

https://www.bustle.com/articles/96756-12-medieval-ways-to-insult-people-because-you-are-being-such-a-cox-comb-lately

As well, I can assure you there will be new insults invented in the coming years that aren't even words now.

2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

The overall purpose here is to see if we, as a collective, have a solution to being unintentionally game banned. So far the only "solutions" I have come up with are: disable chat, invent magical Kickbot AI, or just don't be stupid. I am not happy with this list, but the thread isn't providing other answers yet.

I kind of suspect DE wants us to simply "don't be stupid", as they would be out of their league if they tried to create a magical Kickbot AI or even a much more complex filtering/monitoring/banning system.  Personally, I would prefer DE to focus on what they do well and not have to sink a ton of time and resources into that.

Now, as I have yet to experience a suspension or ban (knock on wood), I do wonder...  Does the no tolerance policy really mean one slip up and you're banned from the game until 2035?  Or do they suspend you as a warning and only dole out bans for repeat offenders?  If they do suspensions, then that should be ample warning to turn off chat for those who cannot help but be stupid, right?

2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

if someone specifically gets banned for using the name Crumbguzzler, that would indicate some amount of hypocrisy

This I agree with wholeheartedly.  I was under the impression that DE gave you a chance to change the name of a weapon/pet that wasn't considered offensive when you named it, but has now become offensive.  Is that not the case?

[SpicyDinosaur]

People that say words only hurt you if you let them have apparently never experienced anything but privilege. I got bullied from a very young age, and the option of not getting hurt by it really isn't an option at all. I used to pray every night to God that I wouldn't wake up in the morning or ever again, When I came out in the 90s in high school, ignoring the problem didn't make it go away. Ignoring the problem never made it go away. Instead the people tormenting me weren't punished and I did my finals in the office to accommodate them before switching schools the next year. A friend had those people threaten her life regularly on the walk home from school and she ended up dropping out.

 

People kill themselves over words, I used to stare at my feet and block out any talking in elementary school in an attempt to keep from hearing people mocking me. I can't even drive a car because I get tunnel vision because blocking things out to avoid being hurt never went away. Apparently I wasn't trying hard enough to block it all out, after all the onus falls on the victim to not be victimized apparently.

 

I love the hyperbole of saying that people get their lives ruined over this kind of stuff. I have yet to see that happen.

 

How about just behaving like a decent human being and respecting the strife other people have to go through instead of whining about your own feelings masked as telling people to suck it up? People and businesses are not obligated to accommodate your bigotry. I realize you are used to everyone bending over backwards to make you feel like a precious snowflake, something you fling at other people despite your own need to be permitted toxic behavior against other human beings, but the decent thing to do is to respect others and show some frickin empathy.

 

If you can't do that, it is well within everyone's right to ostracize you and it is definitely DE's right to stop you from polluting the game with the disgusting behavior you want to be allowed to exhibit.