Should in-game chat-moderation rules be adjusted?

[SkyDarkbomber]

Another reason why excessive moderation will cause trouble, people will try anything to do the opposite thing just because they've seen the great length taken with the moderation method

[Numerikuu]

9 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

Yes absolutely. 

I completely understand and respect a private company's rules on its in-game chat. All I'm asking for is better transparency & consistency of those rules. Like, the least that could be done is the kickbot PM'ing the chat-banned player what got them chat-banned and for how long. This should be the bare minimum starting line for "zero tolerance" policies.

Maybe also warn/inform something along the lines of: this is your first offense so you are muted for X hours; repeated offense within a week's timeframe will get you on the sh!tlist and result in longer chat bans, and, if repeated further, an eventual account ban. I admit these would be somewhat excessive, but the connection between repeated chat-bans to eventual account bans should be clearly conveyed. 

Disclaimer: In all 8 years of playing Warframe I can count on one hand the times I've been chat-banned. I have had region chat turned off for years at this point; I have no horse in this race. Warframe's chat & general ban enforcement leaves a lot to be desired. 

This, basically. The double standards and hypocrisy are such an awful look on the company at times tbh.

As someone who GM/CM'd MMO's in the past, Warframe's chat moderation leaves me utterly speechless at times. I've seen people be kicked/banned from chat for quite literally no good reason in the absolute slightest. Perhaps one of the words they said had letters in it that could make a naughty word. Christ knows.

I'm just glad we're at least given the option to disable 90% of the chat tabs at least. Abandon all hope and common sense, ye who enter Region.

[L3512]

1 minute ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

Another reason why excessive moderation will cause trouble, people will try anything to do the opposite thing just because they've seen the great length taken with the moderation method

If you've got a problem with something, it might be a good idea to stop quoting it lol.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

20 minutes ago, Hayrack said:

I bet 1000$ that more people had strong emotional trauma from being wrongfully banned than people who got emotionally traumatised by seeing certain words in chat.

Then again - they believed The Big Lie, that they, as consumers, matter (they don't). People need to curb their emotional attachement to the games. Everything can be just yanked out of your hands and you will never get any compensation for it. There is no safe space for you in someone else's playground.

I'd say strong emotional trauma is a bit of a stretch, unless they had invested tons into the game. That being said you have a point, but unfortunately feelings aren't why they have said policy, at least not entirely. They have these rules so that they can avoid the storm brewing on social media if one of the players takes it too far and starts and trainwreck.

[(PSN)max141064]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

There is a fine line between disregarding social etiquette entirely and basic sentient thought. You're simply not allowed to talk about somewhat pressing issues or outline uncomfortable thoughts, even having an opinion is a fault no matter if you go about it peacefully and sensibly. I think people forget it's not just people who scream wanton nonsense in region chat who get banned or those mistaken for it. I agree the toxic trolls need a suspension, but this kind of moderation kills the human element of a discussion and turns it into the usual same-old spam like messaging that you tend to sort of see in recruitment chat. If all region chat devolves into is posting random fashion links or asking the bot where to find x or y, what's the point of region anymore.

while i may agree with the sentiment of this i have a few things to point out. 

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

You're simply not allowed to talk about somewhat pressing issues or outline uncomfortable thoughts

You can talk about everything you want in region chat. 

you can't straight out say certain things for the simplest fact that it is incredible hard, borderline impossible, to make a bot that recognize the intentions behind someone's text. and that is not a DE problem, it's a thing that happends in every game and everything that has a bot in a chat. 

You can talk about everything you want, want to talk about the fact that one frame doesn't look very masculine? cool. you can. 

you want to talk about an orange man in television? you can. 

you want to talk about a man in a suit that killed another man because of a colour? you can. 

on the other hand you can't say "i don't like this and this and for this reason i think they should be killed" and i think we all know that this example happends A WHOLE LOT in region chat. 

plus...i don't know if most people know this but certain words that in the American server are censored and bannable are not in other countries. why? because it happends too much that a lot of people like to spew the most horrible things about those things and in other server, they do not.

I am an european player and i can say without a doubt that the example that i made before, about the "feminine warframe", is a thing that was made into a censored thing only in the american server. why? because only there people kept talking sh*t about it. 

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

what's the point of region anymore.

taking in consideration what i wrote in the previous part... 

at the end of the day what do you want to talk about in a videogame? 

of course people are going to spam fashionframes, dad jokes about mods, things about the next patch, people loving/hating the current patch, ideas about a rework of a frame etc etc. 

thing is that the people like you or even me that would enjoy a chat about more "serious" things in an humane and respectful are so very little..  

most people want to talk about the game, the rest wants to troll and the minority would like to have a discussion about other things. 

 

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

1 minute ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

while i may agree with the sentiment of this i have a few things to point out. 

You can talk about everything you want in region chat. 

you can't straight out say certain things for the simplest fact that it is incredible hard, borderline impossible, to make a bot that recognize the intentions behind someone's text. and that is not a DE problem, it's a thing that happends in every game and everything that has a bot in a chat. 

You can talk about everything you want, want to talk about the fact that one frame doesn't look very masculine? cool. you can. 

you want to talk about an orange man in television? you can. 

you want to talk about a man in a suit that killed another man because of a colour? you can. 

on the other hand you can't say "i don't like this and this and for this reason i think they should be killed" and i think we all know that this example happends A WHOLE LOT in region chat. 

plus...i don't know if most people know this but certain words that in the American server are censored and bannable are not in other countries. why? because it happends too much that a lot of people like to spew the most horrible things about those things and in other server, they do not.

I am an european player and i can say without a doubt that the example that i made before, about the "feminine warframe", is a thing that was made into a censored thing only in the american server. why? because only there people kept talking sh*t about it. 

taking in consideration what i wrote in the previous part... 

at the end of the day what do you want to talk about in a videogame? 

of course people are going to spam fashionframes, dad jokes about mods, things about the next patch, people loving/hating the current patch, ideas about a rework of a frame etc etc. 

thing is that the people like you or even me that would enjoy a chat about more "serious" things in an humane and respectful are so very little..  

most people want to talk about the game, the rest wants to troll and the minority would like to have a discussion about other things. 

 

Agreed, which is why more chats should be made to accomodate such diversity.

[SpicyDinosaur]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

Agreed, which is why more chats should be made to accomodate such diversity.

It's region for heaven's sake, it's utter garbage and should be nuked from orbit. 

[Numerikuu]

1 minute ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

It's region for heaven's sake, it's utter garbage and should be nuked from orbit. 

Eh, Region used to be a lot more healthy and wholesome before DE introduced that chat mod program which ended up having random, unvetted and very unstable players moderate. That was long ago though. Shame really, I miss those days.

[(PSN)max141064]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

Agreed, which is why more chats should be made to accomodate such diversity.

A few questions, tho. 

 How can i get into these chats? invite? just normally in a new tab? who moderates what is being said (because we all know that it will need a moderation anyway) and who enters in this chat? 

but most of all....why should DE bother with making it, probably even spend money on it to make a new, less moderated chat to talk about...everything besides the game itself? 

the thing that comes to mind is the Neewbie chat room (don't quite remember the exact name, sorry) in Final Fantasy 14. the idea behind it was for experienced players to get a role of "teacher" for the new players and help them along the way. 

What happened? it all ended up in fire and devastation with people that spewd the worst things ever, literally ERP, racism and homophobic comments.

in a chat that needs to have AN INVITE from these "teachers" to get into it. 

[Quimoth]

45 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

Eh, it's an edgy joke, but not something I'd permaban someone for. The real offense for me is not that it's about the well-known Catholic church's abuse of children, but that Harrow and Rell are if anything the children who would have been victims of such abuse (statistically and depressingly speaking, autistic children are more likely to be abused and/or neglected) and making a "joke" implying Harrow Prime to be the abuser is what bothers me.

But I understand that's just a me problem and it's still not something I'd formally ban or mute anyone over, though I'd roll my eyes and ask to never implicate Rell in such villainy.

Rell did nothing wrong. Rell did his best. Rell gave us one of the best-designed frames in this godforsaken game. Leave Rell alone!!!!

Like I said, I dont make a fuss about the message being instantly deleted. The term Pope Prime in itself is a joke too and while it probably is more because of the looks of harrow that we link him to a Pope like warframe it could be considered offensive too by some people. My joke was definitely a lot darker but that is the purpose of dark humor.

I totally agree with my message being removed, despite its harmless intentions. The attempt is made to keep region chat a safe place for all players. The mods/system didn't suspend or ban me for my sinister joke, they simply removed it. The typical Nezha jokes get punished harder because as far as DE is concerned it has been stated often enough that these jokes are not okay and unwanted in their chat. I remember seeing people that didn't have a clue what the phrase meant or implied trying to say the phrase and get a chat suspension for a day or more without any reason given.

The system has improved though, as a result of my removed message, I instantly got a message from kickbot(mod/system) stating that the warframe chat is not the place to joke about the matter. That is all I need to know to never use the term again in Warframe, a suspension shouldn't be the default or first response, but it does remain a tool to stop certain offensive language from being spammed in chat.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if you keep to these rules, you'll never find yourself being targeted by Kickbot:

- don't be toxic, duh. if someone is being an a$$ towards you, move on, plenty of squads out there.

- don't discuss societal issues like LGBT/political/religion based stuff. there's a time and a place for this stuff, and warframe isn't it. if you want to talk about what's wrong with the world on other platforms, go right ahead, but 9/10 times even if the topic is brought up in a mature manner (very rare), someone else will chime in and all hell will break loose. we're here to slaughter virtual enemeis as fashionable space ninjas: this is our escapism, let us enjoy it.

- don't post something you think *might* be edgy/inappropriate, because guess what, it probably is. if your gut is telling you something, it's usually right, and it doesn't hurt to think one more time about what you're posting.

that's it. I've never had a chat suspension even once, and I've still been able to talk and laugh with friends and communicate with squad members effectively.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

1 hour ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

It's region for heaven's sake, it's utter garbage and should be nuked from orbit. 

That's why I said we should split it up or make a new channel, not to mention the fact that our civilization lacks the ability to nuke something from orbit.

[SpicyDinosaur]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

That's why I said we should split it up or make a new channel, not to mention the fact that our civilization lacks the ability to nuke something from orbit.

Not that you know of...

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

27 minutes ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

Throw me a massive rod of tungsten at 30x the speed of sound :)

Anyways, it's nice to see the tension has died down a bit, i give DE some credit to as not deleting this thread, that's a plus 

37 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Off topic, buuuut... Rods of God (aka Project Thor) 😉

40 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Not that you know of...

Wait till tomorrow, it'll be gone before you know it (Also I think we should  be thanking the mods, not DE since they don't moderate this place). About the rods though, the volume has to be large, describing something as massive purely defines it's density, wish I could talk more about the physics but this is Warframe Forums.

2 hours ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

A few questions, tho. 

 How can i get into these chats? invite? just normally in a new tab? who moderates what is being said (because we all know that it will need a moderation anyway) and who enters in this chat? 

but most of all....why should DE bother with making it, probably even spend money on it to make a new, less moderated chat to talk about...everything besides the game itself? 

the thing that comes to mind is the Neewbie chat room (don't quite remember the exact name, sorry) in Final Fantasy 14. the idea behind it was for experienced players to get a role of "teacher" for the new players and help them along the way. 

What happened? it all ended up in fire and devastation with people that spewd the worst things ever, literally ERP, racism and homophobic comments.

in a chat that needs to have AN INVITE from these "teachers" to get into it. 

As for this, the Final Fantasy 14 chat sounds a lot more like the tenno guide program that used to run, now switched for a new QnA channel in game right now. And yes, it would be in a new public tab, moderated by Kickbot only, with further updates to it's system. DE could easily do this, they just have to make a few more self-pruning servers, which doesn't really cost them too much more money in contrast to what they have to work with; but since no one in the community really cares about this and would rather see region go away, there's little if not no financial incentive, which why I predicted they wouldn't do this. Just a whim, nothing more than goodwill will make it happen. 

[SkyDarkbomber]

56 minutes ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

Wait till tomorrow, it'll be gone before you know it (Also I think we should  be thanking the mods, not DE since they don't moderate this place). About the rods though, the volume has to be large, describing something as massive purely defines it's density, wish I could talk more about the physics but this is Warframe Forums.

As for this, the Final Fantasy 14 chat sounds a lot more like the tenno guide program that used to run, now switched for a new QnA channel in game right now. And yes, it would be in a new public tab, moderated by Kickbot only, with further updates to it's system. DE could easily do this, they just have to make a few more self-pruning servers, which doesn't really cost them too much more money in contrast to what they have to work with; but since no one in the community really cares about this and would rather see region go away, there's little if not no financial incentive, which why I predicted they wouldn't do this. Just a whim, nothing more than goodwill will make it happen. 

yeah, the moderator are a bit "tolerant" than those old 2018 stories, which i suppose the management back then are a total trainwreck

I'm just criticizing how they handle automated kickbot chat suspension and how otherwise stupid it is, i'm totaly fine with the moderators since i haven't interacted with them, we all have to wait for tomorrow to see if what i've said about the moderator are true, i have screenshots just in case.

And about Project Thor, it would only create a little crater with a destructive power less than 1/10th of a regular atom bomb, not to mention the astronomical price, so it was clear that it wouldn't go as far as a concept

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

DE took a chance to not end up like every other game, where freedom conveniently means "I get to say all the bad things my dad taught me."

There's a whole demographic of people that won't use mics because of relaxed chats....

Yea, people got banned and had to restart, but I bet they won't be so callous in region next time. Lesson learned.

 

[LillyRaccune]

I'm getting a certain vibe from these comments:

• Bots can't be trained to observe context, so the detection rules should stay the same.
• Zero-tolerance feels bad, but offending players deserve it 99% of the time.
• Some players think others are "overly sensitive" and chat doesn't need rules (I do not support this idea).
• Since Region and Relay chat are the place where Kickbot exists, there are already places available for uncensored speech.
• Freedom of speech refers to socially public and political forums, not controlled (membership) environments such as in-game chat. This isn't about freedom, it's about responsibility and accountability.

About Crumbguzzler, it appears the innuendo isn't a punishable offense.

Maybe a one-strike warning system for players with more than 1000 hours of play time? Or maybe the opportunity to appeal to the support team? There was the suggestion of hiring a human chat moderator, but I don't feel like Region Chat is worth the money.

This was meant to collect ideas and suggestions about the automated chat moderation system. It was not intended to be a personal debate. Let's keep it friendly and impersonal.

[Zimzala]

14 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

This was meant to collect ideas and suggestions about the automated chat moderation system. 

Things is, we as humans cannot make an effective, yet efficient and fair chat bot for one language and a single culture, how would we be capable of creating one that pleases an entire world wide group of players?

Until we invent real sentient AI and teach it to somehow moderate language across all world cultures to prevent conflict (sounds like saving the world) it will not be possible to create such a thing.

There is no electronic based higher power to automagically make everyone get along without anyone getting offended.

[(PSN)Unstar]

14 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I don't usually think about censorship and moderation, but then DE showed they promote circumventing their own weapon-name-censorship algorithms.

I understand why you would think that crumbguzzler was censor bypass, but it is just some dumb teen slang that never got popular enough to be "mainstream": https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crumguzzler

[Caliboom]

The game should just give you a warning and delete your message if you type something bad. Something like a mute after three consecutive warnings. Not a permanent ban because you typed something that wasn't even meant to be offensive in the first place. It's dumb, really.

[LillyRaccune]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I understand why you would think that crumbguzzler was censor bypass, but it is just some dumb teen slang that never got popular enough to be "mainstream": https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crumguzzler

Crumbguzzler is innuendo for an 18+ activity. I do not believe that DE team member was referring to eating chips/crisps when they chose that name. It would also explain the reactions of the team members during the DevStream (laughter by some, uncomfortable squirming by others).

For more information, PM me for the Urban Dictionary link.

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Crumbguzzler is innuendo for an 18+ activity. I do not believe that DE team member was referring to eating chips/crisps when they chose that name. It would also explain the reactions of the team members during the DevStream (laughter by some, uncomfortable squirming by others).

Oh I understand why they're laughing, because whether or not you're familiar with the term being referenced, people are more familiar with the sexual act that this term sounds similar to.  I'm just saying that in my view this doesn't qualify as a censor bypass because it's its own legitimate thing.  Now would the DE mods consider this to be a censor bypass?  It's hard to say, as this is definitely in a grey area where I can see people reasonably saying it is, and I can also see people reasonably saying it isn't.  This is the kind of thing that I'd hazard a good mod team handles on a case-by-case basis, and ergo I think it's a bit hasty to light up the hypocrisy signal.

Now, if a player has a weapon they name Crumbguzzler, and it gets reported and action is taken against them, then I'd agree there's something worth talking about, but thus far I'm not aware of such a situation.

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Oh I understand why they're laughing, because whether or not you're familiar with the term being referenced, people are more familiar with the sexual act that this term sounds similar to.

really? You think it's another term and the association is incidental? lol I got a plot in the everglades to sell you, then.

[(XBOX)DELTAOTTER8]

Here's a novel concept, the game is rated M (18+) , the profanity filter is intrusive, and the rights of players are dictated because of pandering to third wave feminist. Newsflash, the Woke community is in the poor house and won't bother spending money even if they were rich. 

 

Edit: Sorry about the tiny spurt of politics, but it had to be spoken.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

8 hours ago, SkyDarkbomber said:

yeah, the moderator are a bit "tolerant" than those old 2018 stories, which i suppose the management back then are a total trainwreck

I'm just criticizing how they handle automated kickbot chat suspension and how otherwise stupid it is, i'm totaly fine with the moderators since i haven't interacted with them, we all have to wait for tomorrow to see if what i've said about the moderator are true, i have screenshots just in case.

And about Project Thor, it would only create a little crater with a destructive power less than 1/10th of a regular atom bomb, not to mention the astronomical price, so it was clear that it wouldn't go as far as a concept

 

I didn't mean to literally thank them lol. DE has a dark history of toxic mods and nepotism.