Bring back self damage !

[Loza03]

23 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

when you want to be challenged, don't play a horde shooter.

Aren't most Co-Op Horde Shooters at least moderately tough?

 

I dunno, my main experience in the genre is Warframe and Deep Rock Galactic, and I regularly fail missions in one of these two. And it's not the one where I can literally turn off time for the entire course of a game if I so choose.

[o0Despair0o]

9 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Aren't most Co-Op Horde Shooters at least moderately tough?

Depends on your definition of tough.

 

Ever heard of Armored Warfare? It's a tank game.

One of the difficulties is called "hardcore", and other "extreme", but both of them are hilariously easy if your team mates actually cooperate.

Same goes for warframe.

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

Depends on your definition of tough.

 

Ever heard of Armored Warfare? It's a tank game.

One of the difficulties is called "hardcore", and other "extreme", but both of them are hilariously easy if your team mates actually cooperate.

Same goes for warframe.

The main difference is that Warframe's hardest difficulty is hilariously easy regardless of how many people you have or how well they co-operate beyond not actively griefing each other.

[Soy77]

15 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Aren't most Co-Op Horde Shooters at least moderately tough?

 

I dunno, my main experience in the genre is Warframe and Deep Rock Galactic, and I regularly fail missions in one of these two. And it's not the one where I can literally turn off time for the entire course of a game if I so choose.

failing in warframe doesn't always mean we suck. most of the times it'll be because we're unlucky.
say... even though we have equipped appropriate-leveled builds, we got one-hit by some really high level stray bullet. there's no telegraphed or tells to these stray bullets, most of the time it just mean we fail to kill everything fast enough.
unlike in fighting games where most of the time it's 100% skill. where your survivability depends on your ability to translate the tells of your opponents, then react with appropriate move on appropriate time. cause and effect, action and reaction. that's why they're called "skill-based" because of the action of your opponents that demands quick thinking and reaction time from you.

the action and reaction in warframe is pretty basic. mostly it's just "you see enemy? kill all of them and do it fast. you see a bubble boy/ancient/some higher rank enemies? well kill them first"
and that's why warframe is a horde shooter. it's a knowledge-based game. if you know the appropriate builds and strategy to finish a mission, you're good to go.

if anything, when people suck it's not because they lack skill, but they lack gears and knowledge.

==============

an easy tell to differentiate skill-based games is when you start with a new character, good players will still be good, and bad players will still be bad.
other than fighting games, take sports games for instance. i'm pretty good in PES. i can use some unknown asian team and still mop the floor with a noob who use top tier teams like real madrid or bayern munich. that's skill-based.

or in monster hunter, i can start a new account and hunt rathalos naked. because i'm already skillful enough to dodge each and every one of his moves.
on the other hand, you can give my god account to a noob and tell him to hunt -not even rathalos, say a rathian. the noob will get destroyed. because he doesn't have the skills to react accordingly to the monster's attacks, regardless of the god equipment.

but warframe? you give my account to an 8 year old noob, tell him to keep pressing 4 using saryn. he'll demolish majority of missions in the game. no action and reaction needed. also those equipment already contains my knowledge about good builds.

[(NSW)Greybones]

13 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

Depends on your definition of tough.

 

Ever heard of Armored Warfare? It's a tank game.

One of the difficulties is called "hardcore", and other "extreme", but both of them are hilariously easy if your team mates actually cooperate.

Same goes for warframe.

I’d have to question the validity of this. Most players are bringing builds to a multiplayer fight specifically designed to not have to rely on others, regardless of what their solo builds are; no-one wants to be the dead weight on the team where any one of them can do the entire mission with flying colours.

It’s unseemly to be the one who needs reviving because you didn’t bring another invincible nuke that’s kind of useless, especially when a player is judged on their ability to mod-to-destroy-and-be-self-sufficient, so the idea of a tough co-op Warframe is kind of laughable unless the others bring builds that don’t step on each others toes as they try to out-do the other

[Soy77]

7 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’d have to question the validity of this. Most players are bringing builds to a multiplayer fight specifically designed to not have to rely on others, regardless of what their solo builds are; no-one wants to be the dead weight on the team where any one of them can do the entire mission with flying colours.

It’s unseemly to be the one who needs reviving because you didn’t bring another invincible nuke that’s kind of useless, especially when a player is judged on their ability to mod-to-destroy-and-be-self-sufficient, so the idea of a tough co-op Warframe is kind of laughable unless the others bring builds that don’t step on each others toes as they try to out-do the other

yeah the "co-op" side of warframe is almost as dead as the "stealth" aspects of the game.
8 years ago co-op might seem to be the idea, but as time goes by, players are realizing that doing things solo are mostly better.

the faster DE realized this, the better. 
and i'm pretty hopeful. on last two huge updates, they gave a.i crew for railjacks so we don't have to play with pubs, and new war will be a full solo experience. it does seems that DE are steering away from forcing more co-op on us.
even the so called "support" frames like trinity are getting crit augments so she could kill more. warframe is not a game with traditional roles anymore. frames doesn't really have roles, they simply have different methods to kill.

 

personally i'm pretty happy that i can play warframe with my friends when are online. but other than that, i prefer to #PlayWarframeSolo

[bonelesswater123]

If DE brings back self damage I’m stealing all their socks

[(PSN)SifuPurpleWolf]

On 2021-12-01 at 8:38 AM, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

The irony of calling people crybabies in your own post crying about bringing back self damage is astonishing. Don't like it, play solo. You haven't brought an actual reason beyond people not playing the way you want them to. 

 

On 2021-12-10 at 8:23 AM, Soy77 said:

okay then i'll post it due to popular demands:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/570940/DARK_SOULS_REMASTERED/

 

gaming is simple, when you want peace and tranquility, play animal crossing, not devil may cry.
when you want to be engaged in deep intricate storytelling, play god of war or the last of us, not racing or fighting games.
when you want to be challenged, don't play a horde shooter.

Sad part is its a horde shooter with very little hordes in the open worlds cetus especially I have to wait forever for very few enemies to spawn in and its like that with Fortuna tho not only the quality of the adds are low but they are few in number too not a good "horde" if you ask me

[Soy77]

18 hours ago, (PSN)Sifu_Purple_Wolf said:

Sad part is its a horde shooter with very little hordes in the open worlds

try posting a bounty.

[Tesseract7777]

And take away revive cancelling it destroyed coop! 

[hippokrene]

They could make it a toggle. Skill mode for people who like that sort of thing and non-skill mode for people who don't.

On 2021-11-28 at 12:43 PM, Soy77 said:

if you don't like others doing this, have you tried #PlayingWarframeSolo? just imho it's pretty awesome, nobody can annoy you.

I only play solo and manage to annoy myself hourly.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, hippokrene said:

They could make it a toggle. Skill mode for people who like that sort of thing and non-skill mode for people who don't.

Haha. Skill mode. The true measure of skill is not blowing your dang self up

[Soy77]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Haha. Skill mode. The true measure of skill is not blowing your dang self up

I fell laughing in despair upon reading the suggestion of "skill mode".

We'll be the laughingstock of gaming world.

Like, what's "skilled" in fighting games? Oh it's superhuman abilities to catch every frames in a second and react to your opponents moves on top of unleashing strings of button inputs.

In sports games it would be abilities to have eagle eyes view of the game, understanding flow of the match, then use knowledge of various tactics and strategies to overcome the opponent's plays, on top of executing the plays themselves.

How about in warframe? One might ask. "Oh you're considered skillful here if you manage to not shoot your own foot".

 

BA DUM TSS!!!

 

[Dr.Evil.]

For a few months after they made this change I really enjoyed it.

However no AOE self damage removal has now taken the fun from the game for me.
Every mission I go into has 2 bramma's an Ogris or some other spammy AOE weapon where the person has just put a bunch of speed mods and they constantly just spam the ground and obliterate all the enemies.
It has nothing to do with the fact the game needs to be harder, it has to do with the fact if you fire a rocket launcher 2 ft from an enemy there should be more consequence then falling over. Additional Primed Sure Footed or Rhino or Inaros doesn't even has a falldown.

I really don't think it should be the old way where it was instant death but some kind of consequence like max reduction of 60% health with only 75% AOE range for players or something to prevent that style of game ruining play.
Maybe Primed Sure Footed and other status dampending effects need to be disabled for self impacts.
Maybe a longer stun effect or Blast and Puncture procs should trigger on the players.

I'm not suggesting to get ride of it, but more consequences need to be in place to make people hesitate at leaast a little before the constant spam of AOE.

[Berzerkules]

[Lutesque]

20 minutes ago, DarrenMB said:

 

I really don't think it should be the old way where it was instant death but some kind of consequence like max reduction of 60% health with only 75% AOE range for players or something to prevent that style of game ruining play.

I'm surprised you actually believe Players care about Survivability this Much....

Need I remind you Wukong's First 3 Deaths don't even Actually Kill him... So For Wukong Mains this changes Absolutely Nothing...

22 minutes ago, DarrenMB said:

Maybe Primed Sure Footed and other status dampending effects need to be disabled for self impacts.

Now this would definitely change things... however I'm Against anything that makes Warframe even Less Consistent than it already is....

 

3 hours ago, DarrenMB said:

I'm not suggesting to get ride of it, but more consequences need to be in place to make people hesitate at leaast a little before the constant spam of AOE.

I think a better Solution would be to just Remove the Incentive to go Full AoE in the first place....

Don't Throw so many Enemies at Us.. 👀

 

[Zekkii]

There's really no point in arguing, you're not going to convince anyone to switch their point of view.  They could make an ability that instantly killed everything on the map, cleared all objectives, and whisked you off to extraction, and people would still defend it.  Some people just aren't interested in challenge, balance, or even good game design.  Luckily, they're not game designers.

[-Vahagn-]

On 2021-11-27 at 1:21 AM, (PSN)Sifu_Purple_Wolf said:

self damage encouraged skill

You call getting randomly blown up by chance a skill? The only thing it encourages is going solo.

 

The issue with self damage is that it was too random. You can die by having a pet or teammate in front of you, which is something out of your control most of the time.

 

Is it a skill if a frame sweeps in front of me and blows me to kingdom come?

[NecroPed]

I hate self damage. It's exploitable for certain frames and I think it ruins their charm (Chroma stacking from self damage was ridiculous, and I say this as a chroma main) and then is a hinderance elsewhere. I personally feel like most of the people who want self damage back, just want stuff like chromas gains to be an easy instant stack instead of actually built up by playing the game. (not saying you're necessarily one of these people) 

I think knockback is a great replacement to self damage, but I think it should be easier to be knocked back or down (And maybe the mods that protect against it being less reliable), but have an activated recovery that shortens the animation or something (Like a cool body twist activated with a key press in the right (and short) moment with a cooldown, gracefully flipping into position ready to be knocked down again  shoot.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

You call getting randomly blown up by chance a skill? The only thing it encourages is going solo

And never using Beasts because those will also Jump in front of you...

2 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Is it a skill if a frame sweeps in front of me and blows me to kingdom come?

I say give the whiners what they want.... We'll just go back to the previous AoE Metas to prove how futile this change is... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

People and their Short Memories 😝

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, Zekkii said:

Some people just aren't interested in challenge, balance, or even good game design.  Luckily, they're not game designers.

It might not be a bad idea to listen to the players every once in a while when you consider some of the stuff that gets by the game designers we have.

Take Zakti/prime as an example, it opens enemies to finishers but the aoe explosion that opens them to finisher also knocks you on your ass. An aoe weapon that did no self damage, gets a stagger added to it along with every other aoe weapon. They should have never added a stagger to Zakti to begin with. It should have been fixed at some point in the last 2 years, but not only was it left untouched, they released the fn prime version of the weapon like that as well. 

Like seriously, one of the two secondary weapons that opens enemies to finishers knocks you down as you enter melee range. 

[Kontrollo]

11 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

It's hardly a dead horse. In fact, it's more relevant than ever.

 

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

It might not be a bad idea to listen to the players every once in a while ...

... and bring back self damage. As requested here. 😉

[SpentCasings]

On 2021-11-27 at 12:21 AM, (PSN)Sifu_Purple_Wolf said:

Inow everyone uses aoe weapons they are too op 

*AOE weapons get nerfed*

 

Oh ok 

 

*switches to Tenet plasmor and still blaps the entire room*

[SpentCasings]

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

It might not be a bad idea to listen to the players every once in a while when you consider some of the stuff that gets by the game designers we have.

Take Zakti/prime as an example, it opens enemies to finishers but the aoe explosion that opens them to finisher also knocks you on your ass. An aoe weapon that did no self damage, gets a stagger added to it along with every other aoe weapon. They should have never added a stagger to Zakti to begin with. It should have been fixed at some point in the last 2 years, but not only was it left untouched, they released the fn prime version of the weapon like that as well. 

Like seriously, one of the two secondary weapons that opens enemies to finishers knocks you down as you enter melee range. 

Or my opticor, Or the Astillas...Or the Trumna...I can go on....

[(NSW)Filgaia]

On 2021-11-27 at 6:21 AM, (PSN)Sifu_Purple_Wolf said:

I don't know how many cry  babies it took to get de to change this but self damage encouraged skill. If you really don't want to get hurt its called wall latch. this game is already super unrealistic like most games are in many examples day last for two hours and night last for 1 even though we are in the winter season and nights should last longer.... whatever its a "game" but please bring back self damage because now everyone uses aoe weapons they are too op and instead of nurfing them like I know they are going to, de can you please just bring back self damage to make the game more realistic and challenging, Thankyou.

Counter point: Nah, I'll stick with the stun. I do agree with AoE being out of control tho. I'd like to see more of a knockback For AoE projectiles exploding when too close (sort of like being sent flying if in the AoE but a lighter flinch if you're 10-15 meters away)