give zephyr more control on his momentum (?)

[yoman15]

Since the theme of zephyr is like " a wind controlling boi flexing with her air magic" ,

I feel very strange that:

1) her 1st ability tailwind can only have a long, fixed dash distance and cannot alter its momentum for even a tiny bit

2) the momentum/dash keeps going even after hitting a wall

as you know, wind-related abilities should be more flexible when using imo.

 

so I wonder if zephyr can have some more control on its momentum, like

1)allow him to use the 1st ability again to change her dashing direction in the middle when used

2)jumping/bullet jumping/shooting to cancel her momentum

3)hitting a wall will create a divebomb-like shockwave as well and immediately cancel the remaining dash/momentum

4)change the tailwind into a hold ability that continuously dash "forward"(direction that is looking at) when holding

I think any one of these would be a good fix for zephyr 1st ability's weirdness, thanks

[Quimoth]

Zephyr is a she.

I am totally up for a few tweaks/additions to how tailwind currently works, it is pretty wonky/unreliable unless you're in openworlds where it is still not the best choice because archwings dont cost energy to travel fast with.

[trombocyc]

Quote

so I wonder if zephyr can have some more control on its momentum, like

1)allow him to use the 1st ability again to change his dashing direction in the middle when used

2)jumping/bullet jumping/shooting to cancel his momentum

3)hitting a wall will create a divebomb-like shockwave as well and immediately cancel the remaining dash/momentum

I think that Zephyr is in ok spot now, but yeah, she would be less clunky to use if those changes would be applied.
She could get more effective mobility by adding ability to change direction by using ability once again (as you mentioned) or full range of the maneuverability by keeping ability pressed.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

This has been discussed for so long in the past about how they should allow Tail Wind's everlasting momentum to stop. Nobody has done a single thing, it is the single-handedly most unwieldy movement ability to use in the game and it actually isn't that fast, the momentum just lasts forever and also does the animation-lock.

On 2022-01-18 at 4:47 AM, yoman15 said:

1)allow him to use the 1st ability again to change her dashing direction in the middle when used

2)jumping/bullet jumping/shooting to cancel her momentum

3)hitting a wall will create a divebomb-like shockwave as well and immediately cancel the remaining dash/momentum

4)change the tailwind into a hold ability that continuously dash "forward"(direction that is looking at) when holding

Literally have seen these 4 things be requested requested years ago... numerous times.

It has been asked numerous times, simply remove the animation-lock or the ever-lasting momentum, both would be great. But DE has not listened/read, they instead preferred to give Zephyr a band-aid "glide" that while initially may be handy. the lack of vertical movement makes it a big let-down, also it is significantly slower than just parkour movement.

Not only that, when they gave her this touch up they decide to give Zephyr a through the roof buff on Dive Bomb, 4.5k damage by pressing space, looking down and 1 for a cheap cost of 12.5 energy, over 5 times the damage and only 1/8th of the cost of a Rhino Stomp. Just buff the range and stomp faster and harder than what Rhino could ever possibly dream of.

Honestly, I would almost abandon all hope patches will come for Zephyr to finally get a usable Tail Wind (that serves it's purpose and not having absurd values such as momentum and damage numbers). It has just been way too long complaining about this with no response from DE, and when they do core issues with the abilities are hardly ever addressed.

 

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

Zephyr is female btw 

[Lutesque]

I Subsumed Over Tailwind.... 

Funny how this Issue was completely overlooked during her Adjustments... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[spryt13]

I can agree that Zephyr can be quite irritating to use at the start.

However I feel like there are some needs that need some clarification.

On 2022-01-18 at 10:47 AM, yoman15 said:

1) her 1st ability tailwind can only have a long, fixed dash distance and cannot alter its momentum for even a tiny bit

2) the momentum/dash keeps going even after hitting a wall

It's not a fixed distance. As ling as animation duration is the same (obviously), then the ability "range" is scaled with Duration mods. What's more, the dash distance is defined by velocity you reach at the end of animation. Increasing this velocity makes you travel further before animation ends, thus giving the feeling of no control.

What happens afterwards is something similar to Nezha running around without friction. But even then, after some practice it is something to get used to once you get to know how far you fly with the dash and how you can use manouvers to control it to some extend.

 

[BiancaRoughfin]

Zephyr isnt an easy frame to master but you can learn in time to make the max of her potentail.

On 2022-01-18 at 6:47 AM, yoman15 said:

1) her 1st ability tailwind can only have a long, fixed dash distance and cannot alter its momentum for even a tiny bit

2) the momentum/dash keeps going even after hitting a wall

Her Tailwind`s range is based of Power Duration so if you build to maximize her 3rd and 4th abilities it tends to take you much further. As for the momentum you can reduze/cancel it by rolling backwards and/or ground slamming.

Her Momentum can be handy in some maps as it will persist when going through doors as they open and allow you to get some extra distance once it opens. Touching the floor will instantly cancel it.

On 2022-01-18 at 6:47 AM, yoman15 said:

1)allow her to use the 1st ability again to change her dashing direction in the middle when used

This could be implemented but in tight tilesets it would still be hard to redirect her Tailwind mid-air as you have very little reaction time. Better just knowing where you actually want to go and targeting to launch your self the closest.

On 2022-01-18 at 6:47 AM, yoman15 said:

2)jumping/bullet jumping/shooting to cancel her momentum

No because this would remove the utility her Momentum gives for players who have already dominated her (My self for example).
I often use Jump pos Tailwing to get some extra hight and to maintain momentum before an Airglide.

On 2022-01-18 at 6:47 AM, yoman15 said:

3)hitting a wall will create a divebomb-like shockwave as well and immediately cancel the remaining dash/momentum

Hitting a solid surface was already able to stop her tho i believe they removed it because the ability was having trouble distinguishing a Wall from an Enemy or a Door.
You can still use the Back Flip and Ground slam techniques.

On 2022-01-18 at 6:47 AM, yoman15 said:

4)change the tailwind into a hold ability that continuously dash "forward"(direction that is looking at) when holding

No because the hold function is already used for activating her Hover.

 

On 2022-01-31 at 4:44 PM, ScytodiDaedalus said:

This has been discussed for so long in the past about how they should allow Tail Wind's everlasting momentum to stop. Nobody has done a single thing, it is the single-handedly most unwieldy movement ability to use in the game and it actually isn't that fast, the momentum just lasts forever and also does the animation-lock.

Actually as i said above they had changed it so coming in contact with any surface would cancel it out, touching the ground still does which is why i mention ground slamming.
The ability its self does lock your animation but the momentum doesnt.

As for movement, it is still the fastest mobility skill in the game, it just doesnt scale off other movement speed bonus like Gauss`s nor can it compete with an Archwing`s Blink.
Titania`s Razorwing doesnt count because it requires an augment.

On 2022-01-31 at 4:44 PM, ScytodiDaedalus said:

It has been asked numerous times, simply remove the animation-lock or the ever-lasting momentum, both would be great. But DE has not listened/read, they instead preferred to give Zephyr a band-aid "glide" that while initially may be handy. the lack of vertical movement makes it a big let-down, also it is significantly slower than just parkour movement.

Yeah the mobility of the glide is really disappointing, you cant even roll during it as it cancels the ability. Pretty disappointing but still useful in some situations.

On 2022-01-31 at 4:44 PM, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Not only that, when they gave her this touch up they decide to give Zephyr a through the roof buff on Dive Bomb, 4.5k damage by pressing space, looking down and 1 for a cheap cost of 12.5 energy, over 5 times the damage and only 1/8th of the cost of a Rhino Stomp. Just buff the range and stomp faster and harder than what Rhino could ever possibly dream of.

Building for DiveBomb is not viable, it does deal a lot of damage but running a mission pounding the ground is not ideal for a bird frame or a fun playstyle. Rhino`s Stomp still has far more range and is a CC ability.

They should have kept Zephyr`s DiveBomb augment to suck enemies in tho or have combined it with her Tailwind one giving it double purpose like Equinox`s works. :/

On 2022-01-31 at 4:44 PM, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Honestly, I would almost abandon all hope patches will come for Zephyr to finally get a usable Tail Wind (that serves it's purpose and not having absurd values such as momentum and damage numbers). It has just been way too long complaining about this with no response from DE, and when they do core issues with the abilities are hardly ever addressed.

I use Tailwind the whole time with my Zephyr, it works as it should, as i said above, its a hard frame to master her kit which is probably why not many players like her.

[Traumtulpe]

40 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I use Tailwind the whole time with my Zephyr, it works as it should

It works nothing like it should for me, which is why I usually remove it with the Helminth. When I want to move fast through a non-open world level, I either lose all momentum instantly as Zephyr's feet touch the ground, or I hit an obstacle, but Tailwind continues to run it's full duration, leaving me stuck, after which I get an automatic heavy landing, even if I fell only a centimetre.

For me to even consider using this ability for mobility, momentum would have to be kept upon touching the ground, I would need to be able to cancel the ability, and I would require it to allow for at least a little steering (with the mouse, not just keyboard, and of course the bugged heavy landing would need to be fixed too).

[cute_moth.npc]

I found Tailwind really useless for aerial movement, it has extremely poor control with the air dash function and actually overrides your ability to even get out of it in a lot of ways, and then the functionality of the hover just isn't nearly worth it either.

I would mod into air control instead and subsume Tailwind off unless you wanted to make a dive bomb build or want to just camp in one spot forever with Tailwind specifically ^^;

I got air control with Zephyr in a way that actually synergizes with her crit passive and is really fun to play. Here's a short guide if you want to try it!

You need:

Aero Vantage (warframe exilus) or Tractor Beam (MOA precept) to get Zephyr into a full float when aim gliding first. It's the effect of Tailwind's hover at no energy cost, the distinction is that it's limited by your aim glide time instead but unless you're camping, 12+ seconds of float + the option to refresh with Aerial Ace kills means you can float in one spot for a long time.

Kitgun with Pax Soar (kitgun arcane) and Aerial Ace (primary rifle exilus) - Pax Soar actually changes the way you float and gain momentum when you release aim glide, and slows your momentum when firing + aim gliding together, it lets you actually stop in mid air from bullet jumps for example, which offers you way more than what Tailwind's dash does. You can also aim glide + slide + fire and go into a really responsive sort of air slide where you have literally enough control that you can weave around pillars indoors while "sliding" in mid air. You can fire a single shot if you're flying off in a direction you don't like, slow down and go into a slide or use an aerial roll to change directions and pick up momentum again on the spot. All of the new air control options are what you really want, the extra aim glide time is a nice bonus. Aerial Ace is optional and only works on primary rifle kitguns, but a kill lets you bullet jump, roll or jump again and keep flying for a long time.

Pax Soar stops almost any kind of aerial movement on demand except for Tailwind lol. Tailwind will just keep pushing you. It's a good thing you don't need it anymore anyways if you're getting a hang of this.

Since I use Tractor Beam for this, I like to put Anti-Grav array (+40% jump height for owner) for my MOA but if you use Aero Vantage instead then you don't need a MOA. Let me sell the MOA idea for a second, because it's not a Smeeta.. It refreshes your shields if they drop, can survive really well with Blast Shield installed, can be equipped with actually really good aoe status spreading weaponry, and will free your Warframe exilus slot for whatever else you like. Underrated pet.

Arcane Agility + low rank Combat Discipline is awesome for getting crazy aerial speed, and if you got that MOA then it can keep you healthy with Medi Ray.

Kitguns can also be built crit heavy, used as a secondary but without the Pax Soar benefits (but synergizing well with with Airburst Rounds!!), Catchmoon secondary actually is amazing with the Jet Stream augment but it also works really well for weapons like Sporelacer if you're flying high in the air.

This synergizes really well by giving Zephyr a weapon with strengths for her playstyle and augments, gives you way better air control, and basically kicks Tailwind to the curb and lets you pick a helminth skill of your choice.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

8 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I use Tailwind the whole time with my Zephyr, it works as it should

I too was very diehard trying things that just were implemented poorly and trying to make them shine. I did with old Tail Wind, the angle bug on subsequent casts made it unwieldy and it wasn't exceptionally fast, but you could control momentum.

With the current tail wind, you can't. "It's hard to master but..." No, please. They had a semi-decent ability working and they replaced it with a lock rocket boost that if Aimed even a pixel incorrectly it will have Zephyr go sideways into a wall and have her slide all the way up to the map. There is no in-between time to stop from current Tail Wind.

Trying to cancel the momentum or even thinking of fixing an overshot Tailwind takes time, because there is a small cooldown to it you will keep flying along one direction going too far until you're able to cast it again, and trying to stop it with the Hold takes up to 1 second to activate, enough time to still go flying off where one didn't want to.

8 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

For me to even consider using this ability for mobility, momentum would have to be kept upon touching the ground

Regarding this, adding to the bundle of horrible mistakes done patching this ability, they decided to add a "movement dampener" (I don't know what else to call it) to prevent "nose grinding" when aiming a Tail Wind downwards (no dive bomb), want to know what happened with the old ability? You just landed and just about stopped no big deal. Now you land get stuck in animation for up to 1s and rolls you try will get severely slowed. Try it, Tail wind to land on a surface and try to Roll immediately after, you will see your rolls are severely impeded.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Zephyr was, in the big update to her kit, given a couple of ways to control her momentum.

While in the air, you can hold the Ability button again to stop and Hover. This kills all momentum, and also allows you to move around at a standard jogging pace (you can also increase this by holding the sprint button, using the Slide to increase speed just as you would on the ground, and the speed is also influenced by the Jet Stream Augment).

If you hit a surface, the animation of Tailwind is immediately cancelled, and you can use the Aim button to perform a Wall Latch, or hold the Jump button to perform a Wall Run, this also cancels all the momentum from Tailwind.

Now, the obvious thing is that, no, Tailwind itself hasn't been changed and modding for huge amounts of Duration will produce an incredibly fast and incredibly long Tailwind. This can be difficult to account for, and I often mod for less Duration because of it (my build uses enough Duration to his 35 Seconds of Turbulence and Tornado, which is absolutely fine for a fast-paced mission, and long enough to not get too annoying on endurance runs.

I can see where the frustration lies in the current state of things, but the options are there if you want to use them.

[Kaichi16]

the only thing i want for zephyr is "press 1 again to stop dashing".

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2022-02-03 at 3:19 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Touching the floor will instantly cancel it.

This is the single reason why I don't play Zephyr. 

 

I play a lot of Nezha.  In fact, he's probably going to overtake Ivara as my main, at least in terms of playtime.  And although his sliding takes some getting used to, it functions quite well.  Zephyr, on the other hand, feels awful.  The second you touch the ground you lose all of that momentum.  It's just... really discordant and jolty.  I'm not a fan.

 

Maybe we'll get an augment that lets us preserve momentum when touching the ground, like a Zephyr-exclusive Maglev.  I would rather see some adjustments made to the handling of Tailwind.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Add all 4, theyre all useful changes

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2022-02-06 at 11:50 AM, Kaichi16 said:

the only thing i want for zephyr is "press 1 again to stop dashing".

This... exists. Hold 1 and you Hover after the half-second hold is registered. Instantly kills all momentum.

Not as fast as a second tap, but there are plenty of players who would be just as annoyed by a dash-stop-dash-stop in the air when they're actually trying to go somewhere across a large tile or the open landscapes.

[Kaichi16]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This... exists. Hold 1 and you Hover after the half-second hold is registered. Instantly kills all momentum.

Not as fast as a second tap, but there are plenty of players who would be just as annoyed by a dash-stop-dash-stop in the air when they're actually trying to go somewhere across a large tile or the open landscapes.

i tried that and it doesn't work. yes, you can hover on normal jumps, but nothing stops your dash.

gauss can stop his dash, lavos can stop his dash, revenant can stop his dash. all of those by pressing the dash button again. 

that situation you mentioned also wouldn't happen as you only can dash again after the first dash is over, it doesn't matter how many times you press the button. 

to move in large tiles: press 1, when dash is over, press again. nothing would change. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This... exists. Hold 1 and you Hover after the half-second hold is registered. Instantly kills all momentum.

Not as fast as a second tap, but there are plenty of players who would be just as annoyed by a dash-stop-dash-stop in the air when they're actually trying to go somewhere across a large tile or the open landscapes.

It's only while dashing though, so if you do it after the dash you can keep moving without stopping 

Cause Zephyr finishes a dash, she is still moving mighty fast through the air, so plenty of time to chain another dash without stopping yourself

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, Kaichi16 said:

i tried that and it doesn't work. yes, you can hover on normal jumps, but nothing stops your dash.

Are you talking about the Animation part? Because I'm talking about the momentum part, after the animation. The animation only stops if you hit something.

Hover is literally how I've been stopping moving after casting Tailwind since March 2019 (when this was implemented).

[Kaichi16]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Are you talking about the Animation part? Because I'm talking about the momentum part, after the animation. The animation only stops if you hit something.

Hover is literally how I've been stopping moving after casting Tailwind since March 2019 (when this was implemented).

can you provide some video? it's not working for me and i'm doing exactly as you said. tailwind will continue, it doesnt matter if i hold 1, if i try to roll, if i attack or anything. 

zephyr will fly for 1 second independently of how much duration you have. okay, but the velocity is affected by duration. 

for example, my zephyr has 200% duration. base tailwind does 30m/s and lasts 1s. mine will fly 60m and cant be stopped during this 1s. 

what i want is something more controllable like gauss/revenant dash. you can press the button again to stop your movement.

being able to stop before flying 60m would be great for better relocating in smaller maps. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, Kaichi16 said:

zephyr will fly for 1 second independently of how much duration you have

Yeah, that's the animation section of it.

Animation is only cancelled by hitting an object, which is where the wall-latch and wall-run comes in. If you hit an object that can be latched, you can kill momentum that way.

However, as soon as that animation ends, you can initiate the Hover cast.

If you refer back to my actual comment earlier on in the thread, however, you may want to consider the third option; not modding in quite as much Duration.

[Kaichi16]

15 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

not modding in quite as much Duration.

i like modding for duration because tornados and turbulence lasts longer

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2022-02-08 at 6:22 PM, Kaichi16 said:

i like modding for duration because tornados and turbulence lasts longer

I hear you, but consider that it doesn't need to. With a little less Duration you can get things like more Range, and a bit of Strength, or play with her Augments more. (I really like playing with her Augments... those are fun...) With mechanics we have, like the basic shield gate, and her already good mobility, you can still rely on these mechanics. Drop just a little Duration in favour of other functions, and you might be surprised what else her kit is good for.

And, yeah, I do come with a bias on this, because my Zephyr with only 35 seconds on Turbulence and Tornado has taken me for multiple hours in Steel Path survival, I have the screenshots and everything ^^

[Kaichi16]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I hear you, but consider that it doesn't need to. With a little less Duration you can get things like more Range, and a bit of Strength, or play with her Augments more. (I really like playing with her Augments... those are fun...) With mechanics we have, like the basic shield gate, and her already good mobility, you can still rely on these mechanics. Drop just a little Duration in favour of other functions, and you might be surprised what else her kit is good for.

ikr, i love zephyr ♥ mine has 278% duration, base efficiency, 199% range and 40% strength. i dont see much reason to put strength on zephyr... i'm using Target Fixation and it can easily kill acolytes ~in survival nodes~

high duration means i can hover with almost no energy drain, i only have to cast turbulence once per minute and my tornatos will hold areas for almost a minute too.

but back to the topic, yeah i wish we could stop her dash like gauss, lavos, revenant, hydroid... like all other dash abilities.