Don't nerf AoE, instead

[Berzerkules]

24 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

It's all about incentive.

Warframe is all about rewards. Loot from enemies, mission completion rewards, opening void relics, etc.

I want to hit on this void relic thing.

It's the only way to farm primes so everyone "has" to run fissures no matter how far they have progressed. It's also one of the few things in the game that is beneficial to run in a group. Running a full squad is significantly better odds than running solo so everyone runs in a squad. The problem is the entire player base is grouped together fighting enemies lvl 10-50. Players that are still relatively new might have problems going up against lvl 50 enemies in the void to crack axi relics but they are stuck playing with people like me. I have thousands of hours into the game and thousands of forma into gear, I have hundreds of ways to ez fissures. I don't want to waste time farming prime parts, it's boring fighting enemies of that lvl. I want to get in and out as quick as possible so I can go back to playing what I enjoy. 

It's a bad situation for everyone. We're kind of forced into group play and DE can't possibly balance the game around lvl 10-50 enemies when players in their first week are expected to play with players that have been around for years. There is no way fissures will be a challenging engaging experience for me and there is no way newer players will be able to keep up. 

[Soy77]

11 hours ago, Loza03 said:

 

It's like going to a steakhouse only to find out that they only serve mince. It's still cow meat, sure, and it still tastes good, but it's hardly what you came for.

i have to admit that this analogy makes a lot of sense.

11 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

@Soy77’s definition of “Horde Shooter” may be a little different than the definition the game’s designed for

yeah that horde shooter argument might be a miscalculation on my part.

what i'm trying to say is, i play warframe as a change of pace from other more challenging games that i play.
i never look at it as a challenging game -nor want it to be. it's a pokemon at best: most of the fun came from collecting stuff.
i'm not sure if i want to be challenged more than this while collecting them; some of these stuff already pretty frustrating to get even without extra challenges -unless they can balance the grind vs challenge.

but yeah i totally understand some gamers only have time or money to play only warframe and their hunger for challenge is unfulfilled.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

It's all about incentive.

Warframe is all about rewards. Loot from enemies, mission completion rewards, opening void relics, etc.

The reason why people use AoE is because AoE gives rewards fast. You shoot k. Bramma, people die, mission complete, you get the rewards, end of story.

Yes, my mighty seer can do the same, but slower. So there is no incentive for me to use seer. 

Oohhh, I just love this kind of thinking. I don’t know why, but it sparks joy in me

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Soy77 said:

yeah that horde shooter argument might be a miscalculation on my part.

what i'm trying to say is, i play warframe as a change of pace from other more challenging games that i play.
i never look at it as a challenging game -nor want it to be.

Fair enough

[Hypernaut1]

14 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Does anyone want k-drives added when they can fly. Does anyone want to use k-drives as movement on tiny maps. It's malpractice.

 

I think the original idea was that AW couldn't work in the atmosphere in Orb Vallis, so we needed the snowboards. 

[Metalgearfox]

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I want to hit on this void relic thing.

It's the only way to farm primes so everyone "has" to run fissures no matter how far they have progressed. It's also one of the few things in the game that is beneficial to run in a group. Running a full squad is significantly better odds than running solo so everyone runs in a squad. The problem is the entire player base is grouped together fighting enemies lvl 10-50. Players that are still relatively new might have problems going up against lvl 50 enemies in the void to crack axi relics but they are stuck playing with people like me. I have thousands of hours into the game and thousands of forma into gear, I have hundreds of ways to ez fissures. I don't want to waste time farming prime parts, it's boring fighting enemies of that lvl. I want to get in and out as quick as possible so I can go back to playing what I enjoy. 

It's a bad situation for everyone. We're kind of forced into group play and DE can't possibly balance the game around lvl 10-50 enemies when players in their first week are expected to play with players that have been around for years. There is no way fissures will be a challenging engaging experience for me and there is no way newer players will be able to keep up. 

What if you couldn't group with people with things like Kuva Bramma until you were mastery rank 14 in public match making?

That would make it so that new players could still play the game instead of zoning into a map where things are dying off screen due to AOE killing everything as it spawns.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Soy77 said:

yeah that horde shooter argument might be a miscalculation on my part.

what i'm trying to say is, i play warframe as a change of pace from other more challenging games that i play.
i never look at it as a challenging game -nor want it to be. it's a pokemon at best: most of the fun came from collecting stuff.
i'm not sure if i want to be challenged more than this while collecting them; some of these stuff already pretty frustrating to get even without extra challenges -unless they can balance the grind vs challenge.

but yeah i totally understand some gamers only have time or money to play only warframe and their hunger for challenge is unfulfilled.

There's also nothing else quite like Warframe in terms of action gaming. So people (such as myself) might want to challenge themselves at Warframe or something similar - but that something similar simply does not exist.

Most games don't blend gunplay, melee, powers and mobility at all, let alone with the grace that Warframe has. I can get my hypermobility fix by playing Titanfall (or, well, I COULD) and if I want to blend that with melee combat, Monster Hunter Rise is there for me. But neither of those games lets me play with magic powers on top. And so on and so forth. Except Warframe increasingly doesn't offer this anymore. The game's balance issues overwhelming reward only using one aspect or just plain automating the whole game.

Even at 'high levels' which you would think would put the casual farming on hold for a while, this isn't the case. The Steel Path was infamously just as easy and automatic to farm as normal with a simple setup, and if you refuse to use farming loadouts, things like the AoE balance issue that this thread discusses are still in place. AoE plainly does more damage than single target, because all of its damage is multiplied by some (albeit reduced) factor of how many enemies it hits. Even if the Kuva Bramma hit half as hard as the Rubico Prime, it would still be equal or even superior to the sniper rifle whenever it was hitting two or more targets, purely because doing damage to more targets effectively multiplies all its other damage bonuses and mods.

And the crazy thing is? The Bramma hits way harder than half the Rubico's damage. In fact, the Bramma is closer to double the Rubico's damage. The Rubico has a base damage of 187 with a base crit multiplier of 3.5X for about 654 damage, whilst the Kuva Bramma has a base damage of 1282 without the bomblets and 1680 in the hypothetical scenario that all the clusters somehow hit the same target. And the Bramma gets the 'hits more targets' boost, whilst the Rubico doesn't except on the rare occasion that enemies line up for punch-through to matter. And this is far from the only unbalanced case in the game. In other words, an unmodded Bramma is easily looking at 2000-3000 damage at base, whilst an unmodded Rubico Prime is looking at 650 if it crits. And the Bramma can still crit and get headshots too. These differences only become more apparent with modding, of course.

 

With this in mind, the problem of the game being heavily weighted towards the optimal loadouts affects all levels equally, because very few single target weapons can keep up with that. And with that in mind, people who enjoy Warframe for its gameplay often find themselves losing large chunks of it to hyper-efficiency, hyper-efficiency which in turn affects design because DE has to make sure those hyper-efficient strategies still keep players around for long periods of time, meaning lower drop rates because grinding turnover is based on the farming builds, not the casual ones. And that means even casual players, or anyone who enjoys Warframe as a unique and interesting action game or as a means of expressing their own playstyle gets shut out. And since Warframe's gameplay is so unique, these players, including myself have nowhere else to go.

[----Legacy----]

4 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

Well, if Warframe wasn't afraid to throw level 1000 enemies at us, then AoE would be less oppressive and the buff for single target weapons would make sense.

If a mode with enemies of level 1000 and above was made, you can be sure that people would complain that it's too hard and can't be completed so weapons require buffs all across the board even if some other players can complete it just fine. For the record, that's what happened with Steel Path which later led to DE adding Galvanized mods and Weapon Arcanes, a brand new layer of powercreep we didn't need.

Then there's also the whole talk about rewards: Give it good rewards and you'll have a bunch of players angry because they can't get these shinies, no matter how useless these are; give no reward to the mode and a ton of people will just dismiss the mode entirely; give it some mods, arcanes and/or cosmetic rewards and people will play the mode to get them, then go back to not bother with said mode until new stuff gets added.

I think this is important to keep in mind since warframe, despite having an amazing gameplay, has put way too much focus on extrinsic rewards on top of allowing players to trivialize the whole gameplay, which in the end has made it a huge but really shallow game.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

10 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

In Warframe you have no ammo concerns and no self damage concerns, so yeah, it's not a shock at all that the meta is where it is. And it's a meta where the most optimal way to play is also the one that has the least engagement. That's, to put it mildly, really bad. 

It's mind bongling that ammo mutation fits in the Exilus slot.

Nerf it into ammo pick up efficiency?

Maybe DE would need to introduce overheat mechanics onto guns with AOE weapons overheating faster.

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

What if you couldn't group with people with things like Kuva Bramma until you were mastery rank 14 in public match making?

That would make it so that new players could still play the game instead of zoning into a map where things are dying off screen due to AOE killing everything as it spawns.

How many ways do we have to speed clear fissures? Its not just aoe weapons.

Gauss is one of the fastest frames, has one of the best abilities at speed clearing low level enemies and has a requirement of MR0.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I don't understand why everyone has a hard on for nerfing aoe. 

It wouldn't change anything. Since our basic farms are against low level enemies people would just move on to any of the dozens of other ways to speed clear missions. 

The reason would be to make the game less braindead and open up for DE to improve lower content aswell. Maybe make the gaps far narrower so it doesnt feel as pointless as it does dredging through low content atm. It would also allow DE to adjust drop rates since they wouldnt need to arbitrarily prolong the grind. Change needs to start somewhere.

[Berzerkules]

49 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The reason would be to make the game less braindead and open up for DE to improve lower content aswell. Maybe make the gaps far narrower so it doesnt feel as pointless as it does dredging through low content atm. It would also allow DE to adjust drop rates since they wouldnt need to arbitrarily prolong the grind. Change needs to start somewhere.

Fissures are inherently braindead. We are going up against lvl 10-50 enemies for a basic farm. After 5k hours, thousands of forma spent on hundreds of weapons and frames there is no way DE could balance fissures to be an enjoyable experience for me and any new player that happens to be in a pub game with me. I will wipe those lvl 10-50 enemies as quick as possible because it is a braindead farm. I don't need aoe weapons to do it either. We have hundreds of ways to speed clear enemies of that level. 

I'm just tired of the new AoE hate forum meta. Where is all the hate on Galvanized mods and primary/secondary arcanes, I've seen some excessive power creep but nothing like those atrocities. People hate on rivens but the 360% damage buff from arcanes is higher than a +3/-1 max damage roll on on a 1.5 dispo riven. Then look at the 150% bonus multi shot from galvanized mods, that's like another +3/-1 roll on a 1.5 dispo riven. The then gundition overload mods, on just an ips weapon you're looking at another 240% damage. DE is force feeding us more power creep, they've made their intentions clear. AoE weapons are just a small portion of the greater problem. But sure, lets nerf AoE weapons and see if anything actually changes. 

[Soy77]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

There's also nothing else quite like Warframe in terms of action gaming. So people (such as myself) might want to challenge themselves at Warframe or something similar - but that something similar simply does not exist.

Most games don't blend gunplay, melee, powers and mobility at all, let alone with the grace that Warframe has. I can get my hypermobility fix by playing Titanfall (or, well, I COULD) and if I want to blend that with melee combat, Monster Hunter Rise is there for me. But neither of those games lets me play with magic powers on top. And so on and so forth. Except Warframe increasingly doesn't offer this anymore. The game's balance issues overwhelming reward only using one aspect or just plain automating the whole game.

Even at 'high levels' which you would think would put the casual farming on hold for a while, this isn't the case. The Steel Path was infamously just as easy and automatic to farm as normal with a simple setup, and if you refuse to use farming loadouts, things like the AoE balance issue that this thread discusses are still in place. AoE plainly does more damage than single target, because all of its damage is multiplied by some (albeit reduced) factor of how many enemies it hits. Even if the Kuva Bramma hit half as hard as the Rubico Prime, it would still be equal or even superior to the sniper rifle whenever it was hitting two or more targets, purely because doing damage to more targets effectively multiplies all its other damage bonuses and mods.

And the crazy thing is? The Bramma hits way harder than half the Rubico's damage. In fact, the Bramma is closer to double the Rubico's damage. The Rubico has a base damage of 187 with a base crit multiplier of 3.5X for about 654 damage, whilst the Kuva Bramma has a base damage of 1282 without the bomblets and 1680 in the hypothetical scenario that all the clusters somehow hit the same target. And the Bramma gets the 'hits more targets' boost, whilst the Rubico doesn't except on the rare occasion that enemies line up for punch-through to matter. And this is far from the only unbalanced case in the game. In other words, an unmodded Bramma is easily looking at 2000-3000 damage at base, whilst an unmodded Rubico Prime is looking at 650 if it crits. And the Bramma can still crit and get headshots too. These differences only become more apparent with modding, of course.

 

With this in mind, the problem of the game being heavily weighted towards the optimal loadouts affects all levels equally, because very few single target weapons can keep up with that. And with that in mind, people who enjoy Warframe for its gameplay often find themselves losing large chunks of it to hyper-efficiency, hyper-efficiency which in turn affects design because DE has to make sure those hyper-efficient strategies still keep players around for long periods of time, meaning lower drop rates because grinding turnover is based on the farming builds, not the casual ones. And that means even casual players, or anyone who enjoys Warframe as a unique and interesting action game or as a means of expressing their own playstyle gets shut out. And since Warframe's gameplay is so unique, these players, including myself have nowhere else to go.

okay. i have read and accept everything you said.
i know it's pretty rare thing around this forum, but i really do. honestly. awesome, mate.

===========

anyway... just to chat,
what do you wish from warframe, exactly?

and how would you implement it without pissing people who doesn't want changes?
(not a challenge question. just curious question. if you haven't thought about it that far, no need to answer. i understand and i promise i won't blame or mock you whatsoever)

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

What if you couldn't group with people with things like Kuva Bramma until you were mastery rank 14 in public match making?

It would help in sortie and arbitrations a bit, but AoE weapons aren't even the fastest way to do fissures.

But it's moot anyway.  There are so many reasons DE is not going to lock out public matches by MR and specific problematic weapons.

[CR0ME]

On 2022-02-24 at 5:04 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

What? It's been almost 2 years since self damage is gone in warframe revised.

I know!

I was also wondering how this happened, then I read the log and it clearly says that I killed myself via Ogris. Thinking it is a bug, people on reddit think it is the projectile getting hit mid air, maybe radiation proc on it.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-02-23 at 9:39 PM, Metalgearfox said:

Buff headshots/vital point damage multiplier.

That way, aiming gets rewarded more.

I don't think that will make a difference.... AoE weapons Already do not Have a Headshot Multiplier by Default so what you're asking is already a thing.... And as expected... People are Still Shooting Grenades at their feet... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[UC21]

What about an arcane which make single target weapon's bullet bounce between target like the Atomos ?

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I don't think that will make a difference.... AoE weapons Already do not Have a Headshot Multiplier by Default

Do you know for sure of any examples?   I think most can get headshot activations from their radial components, and I know from personal experience that Talons and Castanas  get headshot damage bonuses from the same.

(Presumably you're just talking about radial damage.  I think most AoE weapons can get headshot credit and bonuses from direct projectile hits.)

 

edit:  Just playing around with the Tonkor a bit--yeah, the radial damage is definitely getting headshot multipliers.

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Do you know for sure of any examples?   I think most can get headshot activations from their radial components, and I know from personal experience that Talons and Castanas  get headshot damage bonuses from the same.

(Presumably you're just talking about radial damage.  I think most AoE weapons can get headshot credit and bonuses from direct projectile hits.)

 

edit:  Just playing around with the Tonkor a bit--yeah, the radial damage is definitely getting headshot multipliers.

Bramma has an alt fire. You can aim over enemies and detonate it like a glaive for head shots. 

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

Bramma has an alt fire. You can aim over enemies and detonate it like a glaive for head shots. 

Do you know that it gets headshot damage bonuses?  I'd assume it does, but you know what they say about assumptions.

 

 

[Berzerkules]

15 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Do you know that it gets headshot damage bonuses?  I'd assume it does, but you know what they say about assumptions.

You can proc Primary Deadhead and Galvanized Scope with the alt fire. Pretty sure it's the enemies that have specific body part multiplier and not the weapons. Then there are weapons that have an additional head shot multiplier like Vectis. IDK why DE would remove head shot multipliers from specific weapons.

edit:

After a quick search, found a video about it. 

Spoiler

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

IDK why DE would remove head shot multipliers from specific weapons.

Well, there are things like Nataruk and Plasmor.  And not everything in this game is intentional.

Anyway, the only reason this came up is because it was stated upthread that AoE may not get headshot damage.  I don't know of any examples though.  The few weapons I'm certain about all get headshot multipliers. 

I'm still curious...but not nearly so curious I want to test every AoE weapon.

[Berzerkules]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Well, there are things like Nataruk and Plasmor.  And not everything in this game is intentional.

Anyway, the only reason this came up is because it was stated upthread that AoE may not get headshot damage.  I don't know of any examples though.  The few weapons I'm certain about all get headshot multipliers. 

I'm still curious...but not nearly so curious I want to test every AoE weapon.

Does Arca Plasmor not get head shot multiplier or is the blast to big to just hit the head unless you aim high? You can proc Laser Sight and Primary Deadhead on plasmor if you aim just above their heads. 

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Does Arca Plasmor not get head shot multiplier or is the blast to big to just hit the head unless you aim high?

I don't know.  If it's like Nataruk, it can get credit for headshots  for arcanes and the like.  But doesn't get headshot bonus damage on direct hits without modding for it.   For example, with Deadhead's passive bonus.

edit:  To be more clear, I said "direct" only to differentiate from gas/electric procs, which can get headshot multipliers.  I don't think it's possible to get direct headshot damage no matter how its aimed.  Or how big the target's head is.

[Berzerkules]

17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't know.  If it's like Nataruk, it can get credit for headshots  for arcanes and the like.  But doesn't get headshot bonus damage on direct hits without modding for it.   For example, with Deadhead's passive bonus.

edit:  To be more clear, I said "direct" only to differentiate from gas/electric procs, which can get headshot multipliers.  I don't think it's possible to get direct headshot damage no matter how its aimed.  Or how big the target's head is.

That's weird, I had no idea that some weapons just don't get headshot multiplier damage. Bug frame strikes again.