Forma refunding item

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

50 minutes ago, Danielw8 said:

welcome to warframe tennocon

How cute. You think I'm a noob. I just checked your profile and we're not only the same rank but I've also clocked in roughly the same amount of time into the game. (Including the thousands of hours I've also played on the Switch version).

Don't get salty at me because you're irresponsible with your Forma. :^)

[Danielw8]

29 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

How cute. You think I'm a noob. I just checked your profile and we're not only the same rank but I've also clocked in roughly the same amount of time into the game. (Including the thousands of hours I've also played on the Switch version).

Don't get salty at me because you're irresponsible with your Forma. :^)

I will not check your profile, because i know, from your answer you never build your gear, only meta gear, so my numbers are way higher. Its just a waste of time

But hey thats super fine, i also ignored some parts of warframe like scanning enemies or captura scenes. I dont mind if the average player only use formas on wukong, bramma, nukor, and kronen prime, thats fine

About formas, yes i care about that one, because its core, building stuff and modding its the soul of the game, and at this point if you care about building you need more than 2500 formas, i cant tell you the exact number but its something like that. In my case if you care too much i wasted 100/150

Dont be defensive, and dont take it personal

We have 666 weapons/warframes/vehicles, 4 formas each average? make it cheap more casual side: 

666 x 4 = 2664, and the real number is more than 3000

[Berzerkules]

15 hours ago, (PSN)lumen2ne1 said:

Do not buy bundles, nor single formas. Rushing a forma craft costs 10 platinum, half the price of a forma from the market, and still 5 platinum cheaper rushing 3 of them than buying the 35p bundle. Granted you need blueprints and materials, but those are so easy to get, and one of those things that pile up over time regardless.

I'll always buy forma. I couldn't have progressed at the pace I wanted to if I didn't. I normally have forma crafting but running fissures gets boring quick and farming bp then rushing it to save 5p isn't worth the time imo. I can go rush a hundred forma from the market in like 10 seconds. I've also used more forma than log in days so I wouldn't have what I have now if I didn't buy forma. 

To each their own though. I held out and didn't buy forma for quite awhile. Once I did, I realized I could forma a whole loadout in a couple hours instead of a couple weeks. I never looked back after that. 

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

6 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

~snip

You sure are making a lot of wild assumptions about me in a vain attempt to justify your Forma mismanagement. That is what people generally call "deflecting". 

Here. Sit down and enjoy this big tall glass of copium. 🍺 

[Hypernaut1]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)FireX2K said:

Requiring 23 hrs to build a single forma when the average warframe needs around 4, primary/ secondary needing at around 5, and melee needing 3-5 depending on build.

That is not counting the 74 forma you need to build weps/etc from dojo and the 31 kuva/tenet weapons that require 5 forma each =155 forma.

So at least 229 days of forma building are used for MR with a few like bramma, zarr, nukor that remain good. Now combine that w/ whatever warframe want to play with vs what you need to clear certain content and any other weapons you are using before getting those essentials. 

Note this is not counting wep/wf exlius adapters, umbra/aura forma, lenses. 

For the average player, you literally need to wait a week maybe more in order to get enough forma to test out a warframe and 1 weapon and that's if you know what to build for. This is the reason you see players asking in chats or checking sites like overframe about what is the best builds for weapons and warframes. Unless you are willing to drop plat to get forma fast or save up ahead of time, you will be stuck waiting or planning ahead. 

I noticed this within a month of me starting this game back in 2014, my mentality shifted to being as efficient as possible since I was a f2p. I rarely spent my forma on anything unless the wep/wf was at least prime to ensure it doesn't get replaced with exceptions if the weapon/wf was so broken when it first came out, you have to be dumb not to abuse it. At this moment, I am at 312 forma w/ 12 bp left. I have only ever forma 16 warframes, 12 primaries, 5 secondaries, 11 melee  not counting kuva/tenet weps. Note that I took a 5 year break from this game not long after Nekros prime dropped and came back a few weeks before Nezha prime dropped.

I rarely put 4 forma into a Warframe. I switch my builds around too much, or i already have enough room for a build. I think ive used more forma to get rid of prime polarites. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

So, while I can see the appeal of this proposal, the sensible answer is this:

You see Forma as an item that is slotted on, just like a mod, and so you logically believe that Forma can be un-slotted if they give you the opportunity. That's a fairly expected conclusion to reach if you start from that view point.

However DE see Forma as a Currency, you spend it to get a Polarity on your specific item. It's no different in their eyes than Credits or Resources, you farm it, you spend it, it is consumed and you must farm more.

While you can purchase it from the Market, and there are blueprints so it also takes construction time to become an item itself, that's not really any different to the other 'consumed' items that are 'spent' on upgrading, like an Exilus Adapter or Arcane Adapter, or like an Orokin Catalyst/Reactor.

Because you see it as an item that is added, you believe it can be taken back. DE see it as a cost you spend, an item that is consumed, so you don't get refunds.

[ZeroX4]

On 2022-04-01 at 3:33 AM, Fenr3r said:

As I've been formaing my old guns to fit in the galvanized mods, I've had to work around alot of old builds. Ending up with wasted forma inflating the number on my weapons. It reoccurred to me, that an item to refund the forma on an item, whether built or just simply the bps would be a nice convenience. I thought it be a nice rare reward from some of our endgame modes, giving repeat value and allow for a freedom to experiment with builds. It'd also be a convenient item for DE to give out for any nerf/change.

I rarely even try to be serious but this is 1 occasion i will be dead serious even if it may seems im joking

What you are proposing is literally option to get refund from taxi driver if destination you asked him to drive you in turned out to be not what you want
And in that exact case service was provided and payment for it was made so everything is cool

But now you ask for option for taxi driver to take yo to different place FOR FREE AS REFUND because you changed your mind and 1st place you asked to be taken didn't satisfy your needs

I could not stress enough how bizarre logic is that
And don't get me wrong i am with you i want easy forma like very single wf player wants no question about it

But on other hand i need to ask you this
Can you name a game where upgrade item can be retrieved and relocated to different item?

Not to mention you can buy formas for plat which already would make no sense for buying them in the 1st place if your idea would pass

[PollexMessier]

1 minute ago, ZeroX4 said:

I rarely even try to be serious but this is 1 occasion i will be dead serious even if it may seems im joking

What you are proposing is literally option to get refund from taxi driver if destination you asked him to drive you in turned out to be not what you want
And in that exact case service was provided and payment for it was made so everything is cool

But now you ask for option for taxi driver to take yo to different place FOR FREE AS REFUND because you changed your mind and 1st place you asked to be taken didn't satisfy your needs

That's not at all what this suggestion is. you're not just getting free forma if you actually have to work for the retrieval item. It's more like gluing something together and then needing to put in work to take it apart again.

And here's another kicker. The only way this could be allowed is if using it removes a polarity from an item (that didn't just have that polarity by default obviously). Which means 2 things. You're losing that polarity, and thus potential mod capacity on that item obviously. You have given something up (on top of your time to farm the item), even if it's something you didn't want. But also any forma you use to remove or replace a polarity is still irretrievable.
 

11 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Can you name a game where upgrade item can be retrieved and relocated to different item?

Yes, this game actually. A while ago this was the case with arcanes where slotting them would permanently attach them, you weren't able to use the same copy on multiple frames, and you would need an item to remove them without destroying it.

Technically mods are upgrade items, which means this also applies to literally any game with any system remotely resembling mods. But I know that's not what you meant, just thought I'd point out how broad that statement was.

Also Black Desert does this with crystals.

You can de-upgrade many weapons and get all your materials back in monster hunter world. (I don't know about other monster hunter games that's just the one I played). and decorations fall under the "mod-like" category.

Destiny 2 would give you back some of your upgrade materials from masterworked items if you salvaged them.

[ZeroX4]

5 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

That's not at all what this suggestion is. you're not just getting free forma if you actually have to work for the retrieval item. It's more like gluing something together and then needing to put in work to take it apart again.

And here's another kicker. The only way this could be allowed is if using it removes a polarity from an item (that didn't just have that polarity by default obviously). Which means 2 things. You're losing that polarity, and thus potential mod capacity on that item obviously. You have given something up (on top of your time to farm the item), even if it's something you didn't want. But also any forma you use to remove or replace a polarity is still irretrievable.
 

Yes, this game actually. A while ago this was the case with arcanes where slotting them would permanently attach them, you weren't able to use the same copy on multiple frames, and you would need an item to remove them without destroying it.

Technically mods are upgrade items, which means this also applies to literally any game with any system remotely resembling mods. But I know that's not what you meant, just thought I'd point out how broad that statement was.

Also Black Desert does this with crystals.

You can de-upgrade many weapons and get all your materials back in monster hunter world. (I don't know about other monster hunter games that's just the one I played). and decorations fall under the "mod-like" category.

Destiny 2 would give you back some of your upgrade materials from masterworked items if you salvaged them.

Didn't ever play destiny but does destini sell that materials you speak of for money? If so does selling that materials bind with time gated nature of their acquisition just like you need to craft formas which takes time and you can speed it up for plat or bypass the process by throwing money into the game?
I think you did not understand my point just because i didn't fully explain obvious parts

And again im all in for easy forma access/manage yet i understand what kind of business model forma have so i can understand why some stuff even so very beneficial for players should/won't not be implemented

And comparing arcanes to formas (static gimmick or stat boost vs expanding your ability to shove in more staff + get some effect) feels like comparing equipping 1 item which does not take your inventory space for 1 gimmick or stat boost vs buying inventory expander where any item in your inventory will give you stat/gimmick boost with ability to switch items at will

Trust me i fully understand what OP wish for and what is proposed here
I just see by that he is ruing whole point of buying formas
Imagine buying 100 formas and never again need to worry about formas would be cool yes but i think that's not the idea behind forma to begin with

And funny how you only see players benefits but not what warframe would lose
Yes i agree with gluing metaphor but look from dev standpoint
What warframe would loose?
No need to farm formas from relics which populates this game

No need to buy forma for plat or rush any for plat since you could witch forma from something you are not using into something you need right now

I feel like you and OP just didn't think trough everything

 

[Danielw8]

4 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

You sure are making a lot of wild assumptions about me in a vain attempt to justify your Forma mismanagement. That is what people generally call "deflecting". 

Here. Sit down and enjoy this big tall glass of copium. 🍺 

i not understand this answer

[(PSN)pendragon2710]

En 1/4/2022 a las 6:12, (PSN)IdoThea dijo:

I don't know if it's that long of wait only like 24h. What I do is always keep Formas building when I claim one I just put another one cooking. Those Blueprints come very easy when opening relics. 

Currently have 11 but I only Forma weapons I like or Tenet / Kuva weapons. I think I already Forma'd all Tenets including Melee. 

 

hace 20 horas, Ace-Bounty-Hunter dijo:

If you play the game enough and keep the foundry building 24/7, you'll eventually have more Forma than you know what to do with.

I am currently sitting on over 173 built Forma. Never spent plat to rush them or buy them from the market.

There's no way DE will ever allow players to refund them. Just have patience and learn to be more conservative in the future.

Hola

[PollexMessier]

35 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Imagine buying 100 formas and never again need to worry about formas would be cool yes but i think that's not the idea behind forma to begin with

That implies people just get these things through regular play with enough regularity that forma effectively becomes meaningless past a certain point. And again, that's not how OP described it at all.
 

35 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

And funny how you only see players benefits but not what warframe would lose

I see a lot of people say forma's a big money maker for DE but I have a hard time seeing it. Have they ever said that? I feel like prime access, player trades, cosmetics, boosters, and just being able to buy most frames and weapons with platinum outright each individually contribute more to DE's wallets than forma does. Despite the time gate forma's incredibly easy to get and almost anyone who knows how to do plague star with any sort of competence would never waste their platinum on forma. (except for the litch and sister updates because of the stupid rank 40 thing combined with one massive influx of weapons that all have it)

Hell the majority of players get their platinum from player trades

What really makes them money is hooking people into the game to the point where they want to spend money on it. And in that regard I feel like an item like this would balance itself out.

[Lutesque]

Galvanized Mods are Overrated Anyway....

Il stick to the far Superior Amalgam Barrel Diffusion Thank You.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ZeroX4]

48 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

That implies people just get these things through regular play with enough regularity that forma effectively becomes meaningless past a certain point. And again, that's not how OP described it at all.
 

I see a lot of people say forma's a big money maker for DE but I have a hard time seeing it. Have they ever said that? I feel like prime access, player trades, cosmetics, boosters, and just being able to buy most frames and weapons with platinum outright each individually contribute more to DE's wallets than forma does. Despite the time gate forma's incredibly easy to get and almost anyone who knows how to do plague star with any sort of competence would never waste their platinum on forma. (except for the litch and sister updates because of the stupid rank 40 thing combined with one massive influx of weapons that all have it)

Hell the majority of players get their platinum from player trades

What really makes them money is hooking people into the game to the point where they want to spend money on it. And in that regard I feel like an item like this would balance itself out.

To give you simple example of what you don't understand i will use myself

I don't like alcohol i really don't like taste of it and after effect is no fun to me so i don't buy it i don't drink it i don't need it to exist

Yet i see in shops tons of bottles with different kind of alcohols and for me it's waste of store shelf space yet i do see ppl buy them
But i somehow see sober ppl i don't see drunk ppl so who is drinking it? Well i for sure not

So i wonder is it worth it for shops to have alcohol on their shelf's if in my eyes it's so bad of a asset for shop?
And simply it is and just because i don't see as potential product to purchase does not mean it should not be there
On top of that sole fact that it's right there means it won with other products the fight over store space and considering how much space is sacrificed for it id say many ppl buy alcohol and i am wrong in thinking just because i don't buy other ppl most likely are like me

Now back to warframe i never spent any $$$ on it and i don't see the point
But i meet few ppl in my clan which were like "new tennogen omfg" and they went straight buy it they throw their hard earned money into it even so they didn't need it

And i was like WTF is that? Who needs that and pay for that?
But then i realized if person can afford something and want it who am i to judge said person?

But more bizarre thing that happen same person who bought that new tennogen crap said omg i need like 5 forma
And i proposed we can open some relics and get some BPs and to my surprise said person answered with "Im already buying them from market for plat"
And i was like even more WTF? And i knew this person was buying plat for $$$ imagine my surprise when i realized this person just gives no F***S

It's not like he was rich he just valued his time and he was more of an opinion that he spent his time better on other stuff than farming crap like i do
And he didn't mind sacrificing few bucks for that


I have no idea what kind of income forma provide you are 100% right at it
But i can't even start to believe is not significant since ability for us to buy BP's or fully built formas for plat exist (not to mention rushing crafting)
And i can't understand how you can?

[PollexMessier]

19 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

But more bizarre thing that happen same person who bought that new tennogen crap said omg i need like 5 forma
And i proposed we can open some relics and get some BPs and to my surprise said person answered with "Im already buying them from market for plat"
And i was like even more WTF? And i knew this person was buying plat for $$$ imagine my surprise when i realized this person just gives no F***S

It's not like he was rich he just valued his time and he was more of an opinion that he spent his time better on other stuff than farming crap like i do
And he didn't mind sacrificing few bucks for that


I have no idea what kind of income forma provide you are 100% right at it
But i can't even start to believe is not significant since ability for us to buy BP's or fully built formas for plat exist (not to mention rushing crafting)
And i can't understand how you can?

Because the people with the money don't give a f***k and will buy it anyway. You answered your own question.

If you have to farm for this thing. It will have 0 impact on the people who were going to not want to deal with it and just go buy forma like they do already.

Anyone who would rather farm are the people not spending platinum on forma in the first place.

[ZeroX4]

5 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Because the people with the money don't give a f***k and will buy it anyway. You answered your own question.

If you have to farm for this thing. It will have 0 impact on the people who were going to not want to deal with it and just go buy forma like they do already.

Anyone who would rather farm are the people not spending platinum on forma in the first place.

And that kinda prove my point that there is market for that kind of service and more or less it provide income to warframe
While your whole argument does it really provide that much to make any difference was just answered by you

We got this game running thx to ppl that spend money on crap tennogen bundles packs whatever
They also get plat for that and they do spend it on fully built formas so...
 

[Berzerkules]

13 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Anyone who would rather farm are the people not spending platinum on forma in the first place.

I've farmed almost everything I have in this game. There are a few things that I don't like and I'd rather trade/buy to avoid a farm I don't enjoy. Forma is one of those things. I farmed all my prime stuff, farmed extras and made plat. It's boring as hell stomping tf out of normal star chart over and over again with a bunch of loading screens in between 2 min missions. I can't keep up on forma even crafting one a day. Yesterday I went through 18 forma. I'm about to buy another stack of 99 or maybe I'll get 99 stacks who knows. Not like there is anything better to spend plat on. I can't be the only one throwing excessive amounts of plat into the void in exchange for forma. 

[Fenr3r]

11 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

I rarely even try to be serious but this is 1 occasion i will be dead serious even if it may seems im joking

What you are proposing is literally option to get refund from taxi driver if destination you asked him to drive you in turned out to be not what you want
And in that exact case service was provided and payment for it was made so everything is cool

But now you ask for option for taxi driver to take yo to different place FOR FREE AS REFUND because you changed your mind and 1st place you asked to be taken didn't satisfy your needs

I could not stress enough how bizarre logic is that
And don't get me wrong i am with you i want easy forma like very single wf player wants no question about it

But on other hand i need to ask you this
Can you name a game where upgrade item can be retrieved and relocated to different item?

Not to mention you can buy formas for plat which already would make no sense for buying them in the 1st place if your idea would pass

     It be more along the lines of if the taxi company was owned by the city, and mid ride all the buildings and roads could end up being changed ending in an increased fare with your end destination no longer even being the same.

     But to put metaphors aside. I did not come at this from a purely monetary stand point, I never do as that's never my prerogative. I receive no monetary compensation for doing so, and if this idea where to be implemented hell any idea I'm pretty sure DE would have that covered. I did however attach conditions that I believe could suffice, if you don't think the rarity could be set as to not heavily impact sales than I'm not sure what to say. I see it anyways as by the point that you're buying the forma bundles they've already made money off your plat purchase. That's the entire point behind premium currencies, it is ultimately irrelevant what you proceed to spend them on. Regardless, I included that it could be either fully built or blueprints, so you could end up still having to wait the days to rebuild them. For those who still would want more immediacy, they could still end up buying forma bundles anyway, as they passively rebuild their forma reserves. The rate at which you can expend forma to which you can recuperate it at, is relatively always higher anyways.

     I came at this mainly from player investment stance, as at the moment I don't think DE is struggling from a financial standpoint but from a player retention and playtime one. DE struggles to maintain rotation systems as shops and reward pools end up with essentially dead rewards. Of those which you may spend some time on to aquire, but once you do those game modes end having no value. With headline updates requiring much of the studios focus, reward rotations end up being left unrefreshed, this is one of the major issues that impacts systems like nightwave, arbitrations, sanctuary onslaught, etc. Good evergreen rewards could help alleviate this and this was merely one idea I had for one. 

      When I started the game, void keys ended up being switched out for relics, and Nekros Prime Access releases. Now, I ended up buying it, but not out of frustration from trying to grind him. But as a reflection of my enjoyment with the game up till that point, I enjoyed the product that DE provided so I saw it fit to reflect that with my purchase. Play time and enjoyment has its own value over simple plat sales. If there are no other fish left in the sea than what value is all the Whales' bling... so to speak.

[ZeroX4]

20 minutes ago, Fenr3r said:

     It be more along the lines of if the taxi company was owned by the city, and mid ride all the buildings and roads could end up being changed ending in an increased fare with your end destination no longer even being the same.

     But to put metaphors aside. I did not come at this from a purely monetary stand point, I never do as that's never my prerogative. I receive no monetary compensation for doing so, and if this idea where to be implemented hell any idea I'm pretty sure DE would have that covered. I did however attach conditions that I believe could suffice, if you don't think the rarity could be set as to not heavily impact sales than I'm not sure what to say. I see it anyways as by the point that you're buying the forma bundles they've already made money off your plat purchase. That's the entire point behind premium currencies, it is ultimately irrelevant what you proceed to spend them on. Regardless, I included that it could be either fully built or blueprints, so you could end up still having to wait the days to rebuild them. For those who still would want more immediacy, they could still end up buying forma bundles anyway, as they passively rebuild their forma reserves. The rate at which you can expend forma to which you can recuperate it at, is relatively always higher anyways.

     I came at this mainly from player investment stance, as at the moment I don't think DE is struggling from a financial standpoint but from a player retention and playtime one. DE struggles to maintain rotation systems as shops and reward pools end up with essentially dead rewards. Of those which you may spend some time on to aquire, but once you do those game modes end having no value. With headline updates requiring much of the studios focus, reward rotations end up being left unrefreshed, this is one of the major issues that impacts systems like nightwave, arbitrations, sanctuary onslaught, etc. Good evergreen rewards could help alleviate this and this was merely one idea I had for one. 

      When I started the game, void keys ended up being switched out for relics, and Nekros Prime Access releases. Now, I ended up buying it, but not out of frustration from trying to grind him. But as a reflection of my enjoyment with the game up till that point, I enjoyed the product that DE provided so I saw it fit to reflect that with my purchase. Play time and enjoyment has its own value over simple plat sales. If there are no other fish left in the sea than what value is all the Whales' bling... so to speak.

Once again let me repeat myself

Im all in for your idea and trust me you will NOT find any warframe player who would not wish for easier access to forma

But look at it from developers standpoint
You have 23h crafting time and that alone is reason for you to login just to start crafting another forma
And that's pretty much why we don't have "craft multiple formas at once" option

Next thing you have relics which you open get prime parts but also forma BPs
And let's say you go to relics for prime junk i go for forma BP amd we meet there (in this case) im populating game for you to have someone to play with

Next thing is for all that ppl that buy plat or packs or whatever with real money and got a lot of plat
Now imagine how plat value would drop for them? Because value of currency is measured not by how much of it you have but how much you can buy for it

Now let's imagine your idea is implemented
And i say i would be happy with it because option to re-use old stuff is always nice concept

BUT
- we just lost part of population of players in relics since they were going there only for forma bp
- some players did not login today to craft forma and so didn't feel like login just to make like 1 or 2 missions and quit so again we just cut our population in game
- what value plat have now? I mean for someone who got new frame because you see if you can get forma for free from old stuff whats the point in wasting plat on new one?

And so think if you have a shop why you even do discounts? Because you are nice and you don't need that much money?
No it's because customers will come buy something at a discount but also will buy something else and so you have income
Idk how it is in your contry but in mine 1 market always in every store i ever seen in same building (not accessed trough same entrance) had drug store on side of that building
And i couldn't figure out why? But then i realized in that markets i see many old ppl
They literally supplied themselves with older customers by just allowing drug stores to open their business in same building
Exact same principal work with crafting forma

Look we can go on and on i rally like your idea and i really would wish to have it in game
Im just trying to explain to you why from developer standpoint your idea is bad
From player standpoint it looks awesome

[Fenr3r]

I'm just just not sure how much forma you believe you'd be receiving back at one time, and how many refunds you'd have available to spend. If you have 5 forma on a gun and refund it only to have to still put 10 foma on 2 other guns/frames,etc., theres no significant gain, and there's always new stuff you can forma. It would just come down to: the minimal play from someone logging on solely to put a forma to build then log off vs those invested enough to grind for the item or receive as a nice reward, were they can now subsume their favorite frame guilt free and now start formaing the prime just as an example. It just transfer some play to other game modes, if you spent dev time on these game modes than you'd want them being played as a return on your investment I'd imagine.

[Fenr3r]

On 2022-04-02 at 5:57 AM, Lutesque said:

Galvanized Mods are Overrated Anyway....

Il stick to the far Superior Amalgam Barrel Diffusion Thank You.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, mainly just Galvanized status mods that I've been having to switch in. Have been formaing the Proboscis Cernos for my riven however, and Galvanized Chamber has been really nice on that. Is Amalgam Barrel Diffusion good btw? Just seen things like it shortens the distance and dmg reduction time from rolls, so it never looked too appealing to me.

[TheMostFrench]

On 2022-04-02 at 4:22 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

So, while I can see the appeal of this proposal, the sensible answer is this:

You see Forma as an item that is slotted on, just like a mod, and so you logically believe that Forma can be un-slotted if they give you the opportunity. That's a fairly expected conclusion to reach if you start from that view point.

However DE see Forma as a Currency, you spend it to get a Polarity on your specific item. It's no different in their eyes than Credits or Resources, you farm it, you spend it, it is consumed and you must farm more.

While you can purchase it from the Market, and there are blueprints so it also takes construction time to become an item itself, that's not really any different to the other 'consumed' items that are 'spent' on upgrading, like an Exilus Adapter or Arcane Adapter, or like an Orokin Catalyst/Reactor.

Because you see it as an item that is added, you believe it can be taken back. DE see it as a cost you spend, an item that is consumed, so you don't get refunds.

This reply makes the most sense IMO. You find Forma as a blueprint, build it, then consume it in the process of adding polarity or altering a mod slot.

Adding another item to get the Forma back is the same as building another one. This new item would have to have some kind of benefit like a time/cost advantage otherwise how is it any different?

In the long run it might still be more effort than just building forma, because now a person who is serious about trying new builds wants to make sure they have a buffer of prebuilt forma in case they want to completely alter every polarity in something. Then they work on collecting and/or building forma-retrieval items until they find a build that works, leave the forma installed, get the buffer back up again, and find more forma-retrieval. (I personally don't have more than 2 or 3 forma built at a time, but people in this thread are saying they have hundreds built and unbuilt).

There's also some small logistical elements, like DE would need to add an indicator to polarity slots to indicate whether they came with the frame or weapon naturally, or if the were added by the player using Forma (how else do you know which ones you can retrieve?) They would also need to add this item to drop tables or make it some specific kind of reward from a certain game type or event, which could change the entire way certain people play the game.

Someone mentioned that we should be able to use the Simulacrum to alter weapon polarities and test different builds, and this would be by far the easiest solution because testing is literally what the thing is made for.

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

This new item would have to have some kind of benefit like a time/cost advantage otherwise how is it any different?

It's not, except you're using it to refund the cost of more items. Even if you're only refunding 1 Forma per use of this rare item, that's a sale of Forma (or the time spent farming/building) less that the player has to acquire.

It's one of those topics where the answer is pretty clear, especially when you consider choices over time and the multiple ways that DE has monetised the game. So, as you've actually noted, the best way is to find something else that's completely removed from the original topic that allows something similar to it. Basically, allow build testing without having to spend the cost in the first place, in an environment that isn't game-affecting and cannot actually benefit the player beyond the testing knowledge.

In this case, using the Simulacrum to be able to fully test builds is a good idea.

Might take them some time to implement the programming for that, because it could easily bug in DE's coding for the Arsenal and be freely available to use outside of the Simulacrum as well (which is, to be honest, the most likely reason that we can't do this already...)

[(XBOX)FireX2K]

17 hours ago, TheMostFrench said:

Adding another item to get the Forma back is the same as building another one. This new item would have to have some kind of benefit like a time/cost advantage otherwise how is it any different?

The main question is how much of a timer would one place on this new item to regain the forma. For Ex: if this item cost 12 hrs to make, it 100% makes up for it since you gain back 2 forma in the time it takes to make 1. But if it is 23 hrs, it can still make up depending on where the bp can be acquired from. If it is from the market, 100% worth it. If from relics then its 50/50. The reason for 50/50 is because I am sure many of us have kept the kuva/tenet weps we don't care about because it has 5 forma jammed into it.  This would allow us to get back all that forma used and then scrap that weapon.

Looking at this objectively, DE put such a bad timer on forma to push players to buy them for those who have extra money but can't wait to test. Players back then complained about it being 24 hrs and wanted DE to push it back by either 1/4 time or even 1/2 the time but all they did was pushed it back by 1 hr.

Sure allowing us to mess with it in the Simulacrum to test builds is a good idea but remember that it is known fact that DE hates players hanging out in the Simulacrum because in their eyes, those players aren't "playing" their game. That's why DE has done everything they can to NOT update the simulacrum with additional modifiers like SP or level 9999. Because the instant we figure what makes their mobs tick, those players are gonna spread the info out.

[Xaero]

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