The impact AoE nerf could have

[PublikDomain]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

When you see that electric eximus coming your way and his 3 electric balls of death....you know to handle that threat immediately while parkouring to avoid those tesla balls of death!

Meanwhile I don't even pay attention to them. Why would I? You don't need to parkour and avoid S#&$ when it's not a threat to begin with. Which is another one of the problems with this game's particular form of powercreep: it's 99% elective. Every player individually has to choose to be vulnerable and weak enough for the game's mechanics to matter, and you are completely allowed to just ignore whatever mechanics you want. Eximus? What Eximus? It's died instantly just like everything else in the room.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Meanwhile I don't even pay attention to them. Why would I? You don't need to parkour and avoid S#&$ when it's not a threat to begin with. Which is another one of the problems with this game's particular form of powercreep: it's 99% elective. Every player individually has to choose to be vulnerable and weak enough for the game's mechanics to matter, and you are completely allowed to just ignore whatever mechanics you want. Eximus? What Eximus? It's died instantly just like everything else in the room.

Well there's 50 frames lol. Then you have teams and solo. It's not some black and white scenario....I adjust my playstyle because I like using revenant with a CD, Range, AS riven to not care, and also using banshee to care a lot about my surroundings because I like glass cannons and playing tactically.

There are many categories of player, all with different time in game. 

Some guy that doesn't care about any of this discussion and makes Ayatan sculptures all day will also have a different opinion.

[George_PPS]

On 2022-08-14 at 4:16 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Over 1550 logins, thousands of hours... hasn't happened yet. Waiting for it.

Me too!!!! This game is about power creep and wiping out average mobs FAST and seeing huge numbers! Also fast and fluid movement system. But there have been a lot of fundamental nerfs to these yet some players still ask to make this a Call of Duty of Warframe ! NO! 

[Tyreaus]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Yeah new buffs need to be buffs to the old stuff and leave the good stuff alone. Rivens did this but added so so so so so many issues.

You don't need to buff old stuff. Well, specifically, you don't need to buff the versions of old stuff. We've had variants for ages and continue to get them, from Primes to Kuva to Vandal. That's basically classic RPG weapon progression: same thing, different look and stats.

Not all variants need to be under the same name, either. By and large, Dread and Paris are the same bow with different stats and looks. If you'd called Dread "Stalker's Paris", noone would bat an eye. (Of course, the problem there is usually that there isn't a clear upward progression as you see with non-Prime / Prime distinctions. Dread and Paris are variants of one another, but one isn't blatantly better than the other the same way Paris Prime is blatantly better than Paris.)

You also don't need to rely on releasing new variants, either. New mods pull off the same thing: stat increases with an optionally updated look. Probably cheaper to make, too. So it's not like we're lacking non-unique methods of power progression.

The reason Rivens don't work is because they're bandaids. The issue is unique weapons not having the same baseline, effectively power-creeping attachments. Rivens try to correct the power creep - with multiplicative-on-base stats. That's balancing a broom on the handle end. While releasing new mods. It was doomed from the get-go. They're fine as a min-maxing pet project, but it's too unstable a concept to serve as a fix.

Moreover, the issue about balance among unique weapons is the content we're running into. Because the vast majority of the content falls over from a stiff breeze, and we're encouraged if not compelled to mass-murder, an AoE weapon is better than a single-target weapon due to mechanics. Adding stats, unfortunately, doesn't cover that. Increasing the damage a Vectis can do by 2, 5, or 10 times doesn't matter, because the TTK and kill-rates in the vast majority of content are identical across those cases. It's only once you dive deep into Steel Path that you might run into some difference, but that's a fraction of overall content.

So if we wanted to, for lack of a better phrase, "do it right" and not power creep attachments, we'd have to make some big, likely controversial changes. The one core change that's less controversial but still hard would be getting things on more equal footing and keeping it there so you don't power creep over uniqueness. Let the mods and variants do the power increasing job and don't release stupid things like the Phenmor or Laetum that are far and above other weapons and unique. The second part is nerfing stuff to fit into our current schema and/or adjusting the schema. As an example with AoE (which is the biggest but not the only example), this would mean either nerfing AoE to bring it closer to the baseline of other weapons, or removing the benefit to mass murder so that using an AoE is not the de facto better choice.

I tend to prefer the latter where possible, but for the goal of avoiding power creeping over unique stuff, it's not always possible to avoid nerfing. The Phenmor and Laetum are unique and carry a large statistical advantage. That's not going to go away just because there's no more "exterminate 100 targets" missions.

Also probably why this won't change.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I agree. I can still get my butt kicked by many high level units even with my powercreep. 

This is why some vets actually like the eximus rework. 

When you see that electric eximus coming your way and his 3 electric balls of death....you know to handle that threat immediately while parkouring to avoid those tesla balls of death!

The problem with the Eximus rework is that it highlights other issues in the game. Like some Warframes relying on CC for survival due to being swarmed with hitscan weapons. Big reason why I've said they should be melee only, because then you have the parkour system as counterplay - which you're already intended to use against their abilities anyway.

That and, IDK, seeing a big glowy guy bum-rushing my location with two cleavers like a coked up radioactive sociopath feels a bit more threatening than that same enemy pelting me with tiny rocks. High velocity tiny rocks but still. There's like, no tension or anticipation when they just pop up and shoot you.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm saying that as a "I kind of like the Eximus rework" POV. It's fine itself, it just highlights other problems.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well there's 50 frames lol. Then you have teams and solo. It's not some black and white scenario....I adjust my playstyle because I like using revenant with a CD, Range, AS riven to not care, and also using banshee to care a lot about my surroundings because I like glass cannons and playing tactically.

There are many categories of player, all with different time in game. 

Some guy that doesn't care about any of this discussion and makes Ayatan sculptures all day will also have a different opinion.

And then there's the mountain of powercreep making Eximus units just as irrelevant as common fodder. And then you have players that make full use of that powercreep. If you like playing tactically, well nowadays you can't - unless you stop playing this online co-op game cooperatively - because any random player can join you and sweep any piece of content you're playing. You aren't allowed to play tactically when I'm allowed to zip through with AoE one-shot everything in the room. I'm not allowed to enjoy AotZ with Yareli when someone is spamming a Zarr and killing everything before I get a chance to do anything. This is the end result of powercreep: the "many categories of player" you bring up don't have  a choice when one category of player is allowed to decide for everyone else.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2022-08-14 at 3:48 AM, Cerikus said:

Lately, there has been a huge increase of talks about power creep and generally it's understandable that power creep has purely negative connotation.

What I don't understand and I am honestly asking someone to explain that to me, why is power creep bad for Warframe, specifically.

Even though I wasn't here for the open beta, I have played Warframe for a long time and a lot, and it always seemed to me that power creep was and is the back bone on which this game and all it's updates stand. 

I am going to simplify it a lot, but:
- At the begining we started to receive prime warframes and weapons. More power.
- Then Damage 2.0 was released. More power.
- There used to be stamina. At some point the stamina was removed completelly and we got Parkour 2.0. More power.
- Then more powerful mods and weapons started to appear, Primed mods even. More power.
- At some point Second dream happened and we got focus.  More power.
- Then we got the spoiler mode. More power.
- Let's not forget that we get a new warframe evere few months that adds to our roster of powerful tools that can solve our problems. More power.
- Many reworks happened, that increased our power. Melee rework few years ago for example. More power.
- With PoE we got Amps, more power to spoiler mode. More power.
- With Deimos we got Helminth.  More power.
- We also got Voidrig. More power.
- Recently we got weapons arcanes and galvanized mods. More power.
- Throught the years we are still receiving new and powerful weapons and on top of that Kuva and Tenet weapons exist.
- The most recent focus rework made us even more powerful and some of the new arcanes are great. More power.

So in conclusion. I don't understand why power creep (a design backbone of this game) is such an issue now in 2022 and wasn't such an issue in the past. The main progression always was to give us more. More items, more weapons, more frames, more power. If we stop receiving power, what then?

I honestly don't understand it and would be grateful, if someone explained it to me.

The discussion of power creep in WF is mostly a relatively good discussion geared toward 1000+ hour players or, sadly, a silly discussion for those players who copy meta builds. Less experienced players scratch their heads in confusion because they do die a lot, do struggle a lot and don't have nearly the resources as those vets so power creep may still be a long way off from actually experiencing. In Warframe talk, 1000 hours and below or even above sometimes can be the player base who don't see the power creep. 

For me, WF has ALWAYS been a quest to be the ultimate OP modding master but would eventually fold out a story that breaks that occasionally. This is exactly what happens during the main quests and, with the way Duviri is looking, we may experience an extended or permanent version of this: OP warframes and weapons used occasionally going forward while having full access to those loadouts in other areas. It's the perfect way to keep both elements.

[(XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE]

The issue I see with power creep is that this game has no concept of "balance".

 

You have normal star chart. Or Steel Path.  Two very distinct egregious ends of the same balancing pole.  On one end, you have star chart which at most of us Vet's endgame, is paltry.  I play coop with my wife for example, and to her, a level 45 enemy is a chonky boi, taking her magazines to burn down, or several seconds to a minute chopping away at, and I can walk up and delete the enemy from existence with a swing and a single blood proc...or eviscerate them with a single burst of my "fun but not quite SP worthy" weapon.

 

And there are players out there who can easily put me in that same scenario.  But the extremely vocal minority of these uberelite players complain that there is no challenge, and that they crave something to fight against.  So the game gets an update, with new weapons and enemies, and the elite players trivialize this content because the absolute monstrous power creep they benefit from allows them to do so.  Meanwhile everyone else who doesn't play AoEFrame suffers because the content was thought of, designed around, and "balanced" around the extreme few % of players that can vaporize enemies simply with their presence, in effect they Dr. Manhattan themselves through the level purely erasing these enemies from time and space.

 

Now DE have dug themselves so far into this hole that they are terrified of upsetting a minority of the playerbase by actually bringing about The Great Balancing which the game honestly needs.  How we don't have an option to set enemy levels is beyond me.  Or choose the difficulty level of a mission in essence (think division 1 and 2 where you can choose Story, Normal, Hard, Challenging, and either Legendary/Heroic)  Where the enemy remains the same old enemy but their aggression changes, they have more health and armor.  Hell, even Diablo 3 gives you the ability to set global difficulty from levels such as "lmao that guy just vaporized" to "what the f*** hit me and from where??".

 

I don't mind power.  But having ultimate power and no offset irks me.  Mega AOE bow that nukes whole rooms and no longer inflicts self damage? lol what? Who thought THAT was a good idea....Why do our powers work through walls? Hell.  You could add mega balance just by removing powers going through walls without a mod that specifically adds a send of "punch-through" to ability powers, remove explosions from our weapons going through meters of solid surface and affecting enemies.  Bring back the ability to nuke yourself when using these AoE meta weapons and create a whole new ammo class for them and remove ammo mutations from working which includes Carrier (and carrier prime).  I don't know who thought it was a good idea, but surely somebody had to have objected to it.  Surely somebody had to have common sense and said that doesn't sound right when whoever at DE decided on removing all the self damage and self stagger from blast radius weapons, allow you to effectively never run out of ammo with them, and on top of that add in special AoE improving blast radius mods like Primed firestorm.....surely they couldn't have seen how negatively that would impact any send of Co-op this game had.

 

Because boy let me tell ya, even at MR24, there is nothing like watching some MR30 or LR guy spawn into your lobby and proceed to invalidate your very existence for the entire mission because they are using the latest and greatest in AoE technology.  When I play survivals or Defense with the old lady I let her do her thing and I run off to camp a hallway somewhere else so she can get her killing on in peace and I show up when she asks for help.  Even Panzershrek, my Deimos super cat kills stuff faster than she does.

 

 

 

tl;dr.  Powercreep is fine if there is balancing performed with the other hand.  This game has been extremely heavy handed with power creep lately and done nothing to check it.  Now we have level 100 Zariman, and 110+ Steel Path and nothing between that and 45-50 star chart missions.  Not to mention unchecked mods for frames and weapons.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

I play coop with my wife for example, and to her, a level 45 enemy is a chonky boi, taking her magazines to burn down, or several seconds to a minute chopping away at, and I can walk up and delete the enemy from existence with a swing and a single blood proc...or eviscerate them with a single burst of my "fun but not quite SP worthy" weapon.

The Fact that you haven't Helped your Wife Build a Zaw and a Kitgun Yet makes you a Terrible Husband.... In Game.... 😤.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

 

And there are players out there who can easily put me in that same scenario.  But the extremely vocal minority of these uberelite players complain that there is no challenge, and that they crave something to fight against.  So the game gets an update, with new weapons and enemies, and the elite players trivialize this content because the absolute monstrous power creep they benefit from allows them to do so.  Meanwhile everyone else who doesn't play AoEFrame suffers because the content was thought of, designed around, and "balanced" around the extreme few % of players that can vaporize enemies simply with their presence, in effect they Dr. Manhattan themselves through the level purely erasing these enemies from time and space.

And then they get Even Stronger because DE then Adds Mechanical Rewards on Top Of This new Content that just Adds even more Power Creep.... 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

Why do our powers work through walls? Hell. 

Remove The Walls and They won't Need too... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

You could add mega balance just by removing powers going through walls without a mod that specifically adds a send of "punch-through" to ability powers, remove explosions from our weapons going through meters of solid surface and affecting enemies.

Oh Joy.... Another Bandaid That's just going to End Up on Every Single Build Further Homogenizing our Already Rigid Modding System 😐...

1 hour ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

I don't know who thought it was a good idea, but surely somebody had to have objected to it.  Surely somebody had to have common sense and said that doesn't sound right when whoever at DE decided on removing all the self damage and self stagger from blast radius weapons, allow you to effectively never run out of ammo with them, and on top of that add in special AoE improving blast radius mods like Primed firestorm.....surely they couldn't have seen how negatively that would impact any send of Co-op this game had.

You do Realise this is Warframe Right ? The Reason why I don't believe anybody Objected to Adding those Things during the Development Process is because they Know just exactly what Type of Game Warframe is.... You Kill Things Constantly ... There are Modes That Practically Demand It and they Even Nerfed Other Styles Of Play and Further Forced the Issue.... You can't Treat Warframe like it's Ghost Recon anymore than you Can Treat Dynasty Warriors like it's Dark Souls.... 

If the Game Throws lots of Enemies At you then you Need Tools Specifically Designed to Deal with Lots Of Enemies... I mean... Is that Not Obvious 🤔 ?

1 hour ago, (XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE said:

When I play survivals or Defense with the old lady I let her do her thing and I run off to camp a hallway somewhere else so she can get her killing on in peace and I show up when she asks for help.  Even Panzershrek, my Deimos super cat kills stuff faster than she does.

You do Realise that in Survival Missions... All enemy Spawns focus On a Single Player ?

Either Your Wife will be Stuck all by Herself having barely Anything to kill or She's going to get Surrounded and Deleted Instantly by A Group of Enemies scaled Up for 2 Players even though she's Alone....

Why Don't Survival Missions just Spawn enemies For All players every where when they Seperate ? A question DE Refuses to Answer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯....

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

This isn't 2014 anymore, where you just kill basic corrupted in Void defense as your "endgame". We have no shortage of...

• Jugulus
• Saxum
• Necramechs
• Nullifiers
• Liches/Sisters
• Raknoids
• Orb Mothers
• Eidolons/Ropalolyst
• Eximus 2.0
• Zealoid Prelate
• Demolyst/Demolishers
• Amalgams
• Aerolyst
• Condrix/Orphix
• Gokstad Officers

Okay, tell me you missed the point without telling me you missed the point...

'Content that keeps up with the power', I can understand that you may have a little trouble with this one. But in your response there you literally name two of the things that I've pointed out were a step in the right direction, multiple things that are unique boss encounters, as well as the last one being a tankier re-skin of a Heavy Gunner, which has the overwhelming interactivity of being shot in the face until it dies.

I'm not talking about making things tanky, or scaling up the difficulty, I'm talking about things that match the powers we've been given.

Picture it like that meme of every single block in a 'match the shape' puzzle fitting through the Square hole.

We are given so many things, so many advantages, so many options, and the content still devolves into 'basic mobs are not meant to be on screen for more than 0.6 seconds to speed objectives' and 'boss encounters have to have literal invulnerability phases to prevent us from finding a way to one-shot them with a fishing spear'.

If you look at something like a basic first person shooter, you will have some very similar things to Warframe.

There will be charging units that try to get in close for melee, drawing your attention closer, there will be ranged units that duck and cover, there will be heavy units that stand there and lay down large amounts of fire at you while tanking your damage. Then, if they're clever, there'll be units with mobile shields, units with grenades, units with powers that make it difficult for you to hide behind cover.

Absolutely none of those games would feel remotely balanced (or even difficult) if you could, for example, press a button to have an out-of-body-experience that makes your real body totally invulnerable for the duration, while you can also stay completely invisible and invulnerable while you heal up your body, with the only expense being a slight dip in your Kills Per Minute.

Now, Warframe keeps giving us more options.

That's a good thing.

What Warframe doesn't keep giving us is things for those more options to actually do...

That's where content hasn't kept up with power. Outside of the Zariman, a place only put in this year when the mode has existed in a form of its current state since November 2016 - a whole 6 damn years - there has been practically nothing.

Before the Zariman, there were only three types of interaction they had; you could kill two specific units (one by opening them to damage, the other as a last-hit after the enemy was damaged), you could engage in a boss fight, or you could activate some items on another open landscape.

Where was the content for them on a daily, instanced mission basis? It's here now, on this one specific tile set, but for the 6 years before that?

Warframe content is still, by a huge margin, the instanced mission content.

But for the years since DE have implemented many of the new power systems, they have done incredibly little with them. They changed Parkour, and we have the Cloud City tile set to use it on. And... not a lot else. They changed Melee for The Sword Alone, so that every new enemy forevermore has to be defeatable with melee only, and have updated Melee's power ever since, and that just means that you can mindlessly spam the Melee button and complete any mission that revolves around directly killing enemies (instead of defending an objective in some way... and sometimes even those...). They gave us 'spoiler mode' and it took 6 years before they gave that mode anything to do in a regular, non-boss mission. They gave us more and more weapons, but there's no enemies that can't be killed by the same weapons they gave us eight years ago.

So in short:

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Do you think 2014 Warframe would survive today?

No, I don't think 2014 Warframe even exists today, since every single system has been updated to be more powerful.

I do think (just for reference) that I can put on my 2014 gear, and 2014 mods for that gear, and it will still get through today's content, because of how much the power of everything in the game has crept up over time.

But just because I can do that doesn't change my point.

My point is, and always will be, that DE are right to give us more and more things, because that's how a live game works. They just have not consistently made, and now very much need to make, content that actually uses these new things in an intelligent and engaging way.

We are still just mindlessly blowing up mods with the easiest and quickest methods to get the things we need, sprinkled in between with us trying new things for a bit of something fun to do when we're not looking for anything specific.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

And then there's the mountain of powercreep making Eximus units just as irrelevant as common fodder. And then you have players that make full use of that powercreep. If you like playing tactically, well nowadays you can't - unless you stop playing this online co-op game cooperatively - because any random player can join you and sweep any piece of content you're playing. You aren't allowed to play tactically when I'm allowed to zip through with AoE one-shot everything in the room. I'm not allowed to enjoy AotZ with Yareli when someone is spamming a Zarr and killing everything before I get a chance to do anything. This is the end result of powercreep: the "many categories of player" you bring up don't have  a choice when one category of player is allowed to decide for everyone else.

Disclaimer: I hope AOE is nerfed soon so people have less to complain about.

But this is still an issue with players not utilizing recruit and clans properly.

Players aren't going to just magically be silent after the wukong and AOE nerf, they're gonna find something else to complain about, because there's always gonna be a person faster than the next guy.

Range mods and people with faster reflexes and timing still exist. 

I'm sure there's some "No AOE" discord or clan out there where all these people can congregate. 

They can still go to recruit and say "Need non AOE users for arbitration 45min" etc.

Someone's always gonna take your kills regardless.

[trst]

10 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

As I've posted on page 1, and Kitmeharder has posted on this page, I think the game HAS kept up with the power creep. The reason we keep seeing people complain about "no challenge" is a combination of them just getting really skilled after thousands of hours of play and game systems sending these vets into lower level content, where they blow stuff up without worry.

So, despite the posts saying how power creep is invalidating everything, I don't see that in my experience, at all. Especially when you consider things like Demolysts and Thraxx units. I see players in PUGs STRUGGLING. I see a game that very much continues to challenge people.

(And, even when I'm blasting through low level stuff like a madman, I'm still having fun anyway, so I don't feel my gameplay experience has been diminished in the same way these people who crave "challenge" seem to push.

 

EDIT: Also, my roommate complains all the time about how empty the Steel Path is. He has to solo all that, because nobody wants to play more challenging content anyway. Proof is in the pudding. (this goes for Disruption too, and the only reason Zariman missions are hot stuff right now, is the new stuff you get from them.)

EDIT2: Oh, and people drop out of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught all the time, way before round 8... so I'm going to have to go in with him to farm stuff that just gets tedious to do solo, without someone else to rely on in there, who is competent. (I'm personally content to forego getting stuff from ESO, but I'll help my friend out.)

The game has not kept up whatsoever. What you have is a handful of individual units that are outliers in that they're genuine attempts at making an enemy that can survive more than a few seconds on screen.

In an odd way powercreep is responsible for players struggling with them and it's not because the enemies themselves are powercrept. It's because the entire rest of the game is so easily trivialized that most players don't actually have reason to even try to optimize or improve upon a build. They can make the mistake of taking Serration and Heavy Caliber, use elements that only sound useful but aren't, and not know the value of things like armor stripping and assume they're doing something right because everything folds like paper.

Then they get the reality check of encountering those few outlier units or jump into SP where they get steamrolled. It isn't enemy powercreep that's hitting them, it's gear powercreep not making them realize they're doing a fraction of what they could do because it's only those situations that demand anything more.

Once a player realizes the value of the tools they have and how to use them then the entire game becomes trivial. And nobody can go back from that point without intentionally throwing away the gear they have and refusing to use any inevitably powercrept gear that's added later.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

3 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

You don't need to buff old stuff. Well, specifically, you don't need to buff the versions of old stuff. We've had variants for ages and continue to get them, from Primes to Kuva to Vandal. That's basically classic RPG weapon progression: same thing, different look and stats.

Not all variants need to be under the same name, either. By and large, Dread and Paris are the same bow with different stats and looks. If you'd called Dread "Stalker's Paris", noone would bat an eye. (Of course, the problem there is usually that there isn't a clear upward progression as you see with non-Prime / Prime distinctions. Dread and Paris are variants of one another, but one isn't blatantly better than the other the same way Paris Prime is blatantly better than Paris.)

You also don't need to rely on releasing new variants, either. New mods pull off the same thing: stat increases with an optionally updated look. Probably cheaper to make, too. So it's not like we're lacking non-unique methods of power progression.

The reason Rivens don't work is because they're bandaids. The issue is unique weapons not having the same baseline, effectively power-creeping attachments. Rivens try to correct the power creep - with multiplicative-on-base stats. That's balancing a broom on the handle end. While releasing new mods. It was doomed from the get-go. They're fine as a min-maxing pet project, but it's too unstable a concept to serve as a fix.

Moreover, the issue about balance among unique weapons is the content we're running into. Because the vast majority of the content falls over from a stiff breeze, and we're encouraged if not compelled to mass-murder, an AoE weapon is better than a single-target weapon due to mechanics. Adding stats, unfortunately, doesn't cover that. Increasing the damage a Vectis can do by 2, 5, or 10 times doesn't matter, because the TTK and kill-rates in the vast majority of content are identical across those cases. It's only once you dive deep into Steel Path that you might run into some difference, but that's a fraction of overall content.

So if we wanted to, for lack of a better phrase, "do it right" and not power creep attachments, we'd have to make some big, likely controversial changes. The one core change that's less controversial but still hard would be getting things on more equal footing and keeping it there so you don't power creep over uniqueness. Let the mods and variants do the power increasing job and don't release stupid things like the Phenmor or Laetum that are far and above other weapons and unique. The second part is nerfing stuff to fit into our current schema and/or adjusting the schema. As an example with AoE (which is the biggest but not the only example), this would mean either nerfing AoE to bring it closer to the baseline of other weapons, or removing the benefit to mass murder so that using an AoE is not the de facto better choice.

I tend to prefer the latter where possible, but for the goal of avoiding power creeping over unique stuff, it's not always possible to avoid nerfing. The Phenmor and Laetum are unique and carry a large statistical advantage. That's not going to go away just because there's no more "exterminate 100 targets" missions.

I get what you are saying but reworks and new variants both take time, i think DE is becoming less and less willing to spend. What sells for them is gun go boom.

What De makes money on is new content not old, and someone ALWAYS complains when things are balanced.

[PublikDomain]

51 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

But this is still an issue with players not utilizing recruit and clans properly.

Right, because every mission you do should involve a thorough recruiting and vetting process beforehand. You should never start a mission without first debriefing and coordinating loadouts. /s

It's not an issue with skill.

It's not an issue with recruiting.

It's an issue with the game's rampant powercreep eroding normal cooperative play. The common suggestion that players should play by themselves or only with specific people is indicative of this enough. If you genuinely believe that people who want to play the game without being blinded by Zarrs should have to join a discord just to play the game... then maybe something ain't right? Though you're correct that whatever DE does to Wukong and AoE weapons isn't going to stop these complaints, but that's because those two things are just the tip of a very, very large iceberg.

[Graavarg]

On 2022-08-13 at 11:15 PM, Lutesque said:

I mean.... We are always Giving DE feedback on how to improve the experience but obviously they are interested in something entirely Different...

What players are mostly doing on the forum is giving feedback on how to improve Warframe for them, personally. That is something completely different from improving the game "for everyone".

Another example would be the funny paradox where someone complains of lack of content and wants higher drop rates and faster missions, in the same post/thread...

So I can't agree with the "we" (as in "we, the community"). Trying to implement all those suggestions would ruin Warframe in no time. But that said, goldnugget ideas do pop up every now and then, as there are some players capable of thinking outside the "personal egoism box" and able to put things into the larger context.

[Zexal]

Pretty crazy to see that after years of seeing actual players and vets asking for content and difficulty, we're all sitting here, watching forums burning because... Wukong + Bramma are getting nerfed.

That might teach new players, as well as casual players that behind this skillless comp, you have to play the game and understand its mechanics to find some viability in your loadout. (Not that it's difficult nowadays, there's enough documentation online and enough active vets with knowledge to spare)
Kinda shocked that it took DE this long to react to this braindead "meta", but not shocked at all to see how many posts have been created because of this well deserved nerf.

Balance can only be found if the whole modding system and every single weapon gets redesigned.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I get what you are saying but reworks and new variants both take time, i think DE is becoming less and less willing to spend. What sells for them is gun go boom.

What De makes money on is new content not old, and someone ALWAYS complains when things are balanced.

Also why I bring up mods. You can go fancy with the looks and sounds of Galvanized mods but let's be real: that's very extra. You can just slap a name, some stats, a polarity, a cost, a screenshot, and go ham. No need to reinvent the wheel for that.

There's a bunch more shortcuts, too. Consider the Incarnon weapons. There's effort already put into their mechanics. Now imagine where you can take what looks like a bog standard Braton, generate some funky void energy or void spikes around it (or use a different texture for some parts), and get the Phenmor's Rank 5 Incarnon bonus on it. Maybe some of the other bonuses, too. Tada, you have a variant set for dirt cheap that gives players a lot to look into. And a few other weapons to usher it in to this new echelon of power, too. Nobody said every weapon has to start its design from MR0, after all. So long as they climb in lockstep and every type has some variant to keep up with the top, you can introduce things at any point.

(I mean it's not quite that simple. You still have to be careful designs don't leave certain weapons in the dust. Phenmor's R5 buff isn't great on a high-crit, low-status weapon. But it's not that hard to just make sure the design isn't too particular. The Laetum's stacking buff on non-crit, non-status hits is a fine alternative.)

EDIT: But, yeah, there's still a cost to getting things sorted in a way that's doable. Can't just slap more variants on top of what we've got now: there's more work to be done on the foundations to ensure things progress properly. And, unfortunately, you're probably right that DE is a tad too cheap for that.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

On 2022-08-12 at 9:52 PM, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Or you could just nerf the weapons. Seriously, almost every game buffs and nerfs items as time goes on, and every time the community overreacts to it. This is nothing new, people will get over it and chase some other new item.

this is very true , people tend to get defensive for many reasons (using a exploit, or liking the aesthetics of a character/item ect)

imo a nerf should be tempered with changes to make it relevant, something should be made unusable or trash just because it was initially to good. it can be 

we had ember get a hard nerf after her OG WOF nuked braindead wise , then she became very hard and squishy to use for a long time and only a while ago got the much needed overhaul. it shouldnt take a large gap between lowering output and nerfing to altering it to be usable with feedback  , but that is imo

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Disclaimer: I hope AOE is nerfed soon so people have less to complain about.

But this is still an issue with players not utilizing recruit and clans properly.

Players aren't going to just magically be silent after the wukong and AOE nerf, they're gonna find something else to complain about, because there's always gonna be a person faster than the next guy.

Range mods and people with faster reflexes and timing still exist. 

I'm sure there's some "No AOE" discord or clan out there where all these people can congregate. 

They can still go to recruit and say "Need non AOE users for arbitration 45min" etc.

Someone's always gonna take your kills regardless.

I love people who fail, or even worse, refuse to see larger design issues and suggest individual solutions. It's a worthless and shortsighted opinion borne not from any genuine desire to see improvement to user experience but to sit on a high horse and feel smug that you behave better than other plebs. Like DE themselves will pat you on the head for being such a good little boy who doesn't complain about the very real meta and the very real design decisions responsible for that meta. 

Go shove it. AOE and Wukong are just symptoms, true, but treating any disease also includes treating serious symptoms. Ignoring them isn't going to make anything better. 

Yes people are going to complain even after the first serious symptoms are treated because Warframe is a mess. It's not controversial to state Warframe is a messy game with systems slapped on top of systems that DE rarely seems to have the proper time to polish or plan around because of live service model. Why is the reality that people will move onto the next thing to criticize and complain about such a big problem for you? Maybe take your own advice and filter your own video game forum experiences? 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Maybe the PC and PS4 playerbases are very different...  but neither myself, nor my roommate, are encountering these non-stop AoE spamming co-op ruining situations. Quite the opposite, having to carry people that are struggling to complete the objectives (on stuff like Zariman, Arbitrations, Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, etc...not normal stuff.)

So, I don't see this horrible power creep epidemic that's ruining everyone's experience... at all... like the opposite... so... can't relate, and can't support people who want to nerf stuff.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

57 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Right, because every mission you do should involve a thorough recruiting and vetting process beforehand. You should never start a mission without first debriefing and coordinating loadouts. /s

It's not an issue with skill.

It's not an issue with recruiting.

It's an issue with the game's rampant powercreep eroding normal cooperative play. The common suggestion that players should play by themselves or only with specific people is indicative of this enough. If you genuinely believe that people who want to play the game without being blinded by Zarrs should have to join a discord just to play the game... then maybe something ain't right? Though you're correct that whatever DE does to Wukong and AoE weapons isn't going to stop these complaints, but that's because those two things are just the tip of a very, very large iceberg.

Don't know what to tell you. Game's progress. 

Without AOE, it'll be sprint mods and sprint frames rushing to the next cluster on the radar to melee it, or activate an AOE ability, or just move the reticle shoulder length across some enemies with a rapid fire assault rifle. 

Some people will go to the forums and try to get sprinting nerfed, but it won't happen. 

This is a fast paced farming game. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

I love people who fail, or even worse, refuse to see larger design issues and suggest individual solutions. It's a worthless and shortsighted opinion borne not from any genuine desire to see improvement to user experience but to sit on a high horse and feel smug that you behave better than other plebs. Like DE themselves will pat you on the head for being such a good little boy who doesn't complain about the very real meta and the very real design decisions responsible for that meta. 

Go shove it. AOE and Wukong are just symptoms, true, but treating any disease also includes treating serious symptoms. Ignoring them isn't going to make anything better. 

Yes people are going to complain even after the first serious symptoms are treated because Warframe is a mess. It's not controversial to state Warframe is a messy game with systems slapped on top of systems that DE rarely seems to have the proper time to polish or plan around because of live service model. Why is the reality that people will move onto the next thing to criticize and complain about such a big problem for you? Maybe take your own advice and filter your own video game forum experiences? 

Yea we all know:

Stat squish and lose half the player base. 

You have awhile until that happens. 

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

28 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Also why I bring up mods. You can go fancy with the looks and sounds of Galvanized mods but let's be real: that's very extra. You can just slap a name, some stats, a polarity, a cost, a screenshot, and go ham. No need to reinvent the wheel for that.

There's a bunch more shortcuts, too. Consider the Incarnon weapons. There's effort already put into their mechanics. Now imagine where you can take what looks like a bog standard Braton, generate some funky void energy or void spikes around it (or use a different texture for some parts), and get the Phenmor's Rank 5 Incarnon bonus on it. Maybe some of the other bonuses, too. Tada, you have a variant set for dirt cheap that gives players a lot to look into. And a few other weapons to usher it in to this new echelon of power, too. Nobody said every weapon has to start its design from MR0, after all. So long as they climb in lockstep and every type has some variant to keep up with the top, you can introduce things at any point.

(I mean it's not quite that simple. You still have to be careful designs don't leave certain weapons in the dust. Phenmor's R5 buff isn't great on a high-crit, low-status weapon. But it's not that hard to just make sure the design isn't too particular. The Laetum's stacking buff on non-crit, non-status hits is a fine alternative.)

EDIT: But, yeah, there's still a cost to getting things sorted in a way that's doable. Can't just slap more variants on top of what we've got now: there's more work to be done on the foundations to ensure things progress properly. And, unfortunately, you're probably right that DE is a tad too cheap for that.

Honestly we should be able to use the incarnon system on all weapons, the buffs may need a look over but making weapons "Void-Touched" and picking out 5 buffs for weapons would be awesome assuming they wouldnt be too broke. I'll also add that it probably shouldn't apply to kuva and tenet weapons.

[PublikDomain]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Don't know what to tell you. Game's progress. 

Progress means fixing issues, not downplaying them and making excuses.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

What players are mostly doing on the forum is giving feedback on how to improve Warframe for them, personally. That is something completely different from improving the game "for everyone".

Another example would be the funny paradox where someone complains of lack of content and wants higher drop rates and faster missions, in the same post/thread...

So I can't agree with the "we" (as in "we, the community"). Trying to implement all those suggestions would ruin Warframe in no time. But that said, goldnugget ideas do pop up every now and then, as there are some players capable of thinking outside the "personal egoism box" and able to put things into the larger context.

That's basically what I said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

19 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Progress means fixing issues, not downplaying them and making excuses.

An issue to you, is fun for someone else. 

DE had years to rework the entire game. I personally don't see it happening anytime soon, but I could be wrong.