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Khora Prime: Hotfix 31.7.1


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On 2022-07-29 at 5:41 AM, ---Victoria--- said:

I dont support crossplay or crosssave. Nice to see someone else being worried too.

well cross-trade will be great, but crossplay itself... im worried e.g. i really dont want to join a party where host is someone on a mobile phone with a S#&$ty mobile internet connection. also i really do not like the changes made to the game prior to this (looking at you ,the downgraded, weird, wobbly and clunky overload shopping cart operator movement. Well since Tennocon announced this slowpaced new game Soulframe, i think warframe can be sped up and be fast paced again? maybe? #makewarframegreatagain)

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Personally I'm on a Warframe hiatus until the cephalon melica and zarium accolade not spawning is fixed. It guarantees you waste 40+ minutes of time for nothing cause you're forced to forfeit and leave via the elevator and it fails the mission. Instead of everything you found during the search, you get 12k cred. Such a sh%&*y bug this late in the games run. Confirmed that I didn't miss any areas cause of the entire map being revealed and golden instinct not picking up anything. Straight up no cephalon melica or zarium accolade spawned at the start of the mission. And you don't get a waypoint for it until you find it, so you don't know until you're screwed in these situations.

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Let me quantify something for everyone.  Mathematically, the Holdfasts is the crappiest and longest grind in the game not behind an RNG walll, and this is not new for DE.  It is a very valid complaint to raise...as not only is it the smallest expansion, with the most cosmetics, it's also the grindiest.  

 

Now that's a big ask to prove, right?  Well, no.

Stage Ostron Quills Solaris United Vox Solaris Vent Kids Entrati Necraloid Holdfasts
Level Up 240000 240000 240000 240000 240000 240000 71000 240000
Level Up Standing 0 7500 37400 36000 0 38600 122500 95000
Weapons/Amps 113000 21500 45250 27000 75000 63500 248000 464500
Arcanes 600000 2152500 840000 2835000 0 0 0 2215500
Content (other) 0 2500 0 25000 492500 20000 50000 20000
Companions 0 0 102500 0 0 110000 60000 90000
Cosmetics 1335000 653000 681500 220000 50000 1023000 85000 2403000
Fishing (no bait) 1500 0 5500 0 0 5500 0 0
Mining 164750 0 98500 0 0 32000 0 0
Capture (no boosters) 6500 0 34000 0 0 8000 0 0
                 
Total 2460750 3077000 2084650 3383000 857500 1540600 636500 5528000

 

 

These numbers assume:

1) You don't buy any bait.

2) You buy one of each thing...so no experimenting with kitguns and zaws.

3) After a few dozen items I didn't miss any cosmetics.  I'd call it about 92% accurate, with the error to round down on the Holdfasts.

 

The conclusions are:

1) Despite a huge amount of added content, the Holdfasts almost double the standing costs of their nearest neighbor.

2) Despite this, the focus is on cosmetics...so way less content.

3) Holy crap...Ostrons have multiple 100k decorations, but are almost half of the cosmetics cost of the Holdfasts.

4) No mining, no captures, and no fishing mean mission grind is the only way to engage with this mess.

5) Cost of Deimos<< Zariman ~ Cetus < Fortuna.  Cetus has had years of infusions, Fortuna has 3 standing groups, and still the Zariman is less than 10k standing from Cetus, or 0.177%.  

 

 

So...the numbers here don't lie.  The Holdfasts are Warframe making grind worse.  It's funny...  I thought I'd be irrational in saying this.  I thought they'd be much closer on the grind.  That said, I am wrong.  It is that bad.  Can somebody at DE sit down, and fix this aborted mess of a half baked scheme?  I mean, once you see how bad this is, it's hard to not see "Diablo Immortal is our future" in large font golden writing.  

 

 

 

As a matter of record:

1) Vox Solaris is the most expensive to obtain all arcanes from.

2) Despite 3 levels, the Necraloid is actually the most expensive to level up in.  Yeah.

3) Vent Kids offer the most stuff that isn't core content.  This is down to the expensive parts, and the numerous mods available nowhere else.  Yeah, K-drives coming in at the clutch and sucking so hard they can remove chrome from stainless steel again.

4) The Entrati offer the most expensive companions, due to the numerous mutagens.  No, the Moas are beaten out.

5) Mining Cetus is expensive, given all the refinement.

6) Captures on Fortuna are expensive.  This is due largely to the huge list of beasts.  

7) For the money, your best bet is Deimos.  Two factions with 1.089 Million standing per faction is the least grind...with Holdfasts five times more grind.  Ouch

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On 2022-07-28 at 8:04 PM, Loyaal said:

Still crashing 2-3 times per day, can't play the game, never happen to me since new update 👍


Had the same issue past few days, this fixed it for me.
Not just that, it fixed some massive UI loadtimes ive been having. can recommend going through this, if you still crashing

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On 2022-07-28 at 1:30 PM, XHADgaming said:

They don't cause the game freezes up and you are forced to quit out of task manager. So there is no crash report to speak of and giving the relevant logs doesn't help.

See below for forum post for other people's experience with the issue, I myself was able to change to directx 12 to stop them for the most part.

 

I have this save issue. Lots of micro stuttering. Didn't have anything like this prior to the update.

Game would hard lock/freeze randomly. Loading screen. Yup. Loading into the orbiter. Yup. Right after entering pw to login. Yup. Barely minutes into a mission. Yup.

 

Switched to dx12 beta and haven't seen the hard lock/freeze.  Still get what I would consider a lot of micro stuttering that is not something I've experienced in WF.

32gb ram + ssd + rtx2080 + i7-9700k

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FIX boolean syandana's primary and secondary colors showing as dark magenta when setting it black.

FIX harrow prime's deluxe skin showing up wrong when looked at in "my profile".

FIX normal khora skin (because the prime SUCKS) not showing spikes in orbiter or arsenal unless you select the urushu 1st after which they're gone again after exiting arsenal.

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17 hours ago, Carmelitha said:

DAY 896 :  You can actually miss your target if you shoot at point blank ( even with 0 recoil ).

I'd say that's because your gun is through their hitbox and out the otherside, I've had it happen to myself, game can't work out where your hitbox of your gun and where it shoots to hit the enemy, instead it shoots through them.

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On 2022-08-03 at 7:12 AM, master_of_destiny said:

1) Vox Solaris is the most expensive to obtain all arcanes from.

2) Despite 3 levels, the Necraloid is actually the most expensive to level up in.  Yeah.

3) Vent Kids offer the most stuff that isn't core content.  This is down to the expensive parts, and the numerous mods available nowhere else.  Yeah, K-drives coming in at the clutch and sucking so hard they can remove chrome from stainless steel again.

4) The Entrati offer the most expensive companions, due to the numerous mutagens.  No, the Moas are beaten out.

5) Mining Cetus is expensive, given all the refinement.

6) Captures on Fortuna are expensive.  This is due largely to the huge list of beasts.  

7) For the money, your best bet is Deimos.  Two factions with 1.089 Million standing per faction is the least grind...with Holdfasts five times more grind.  Ouch

Just want to point out, yes its a lot of farm, but your numbers DO lie, as you can get all of the arcanes as drops during missions, seperate from rep farm.

Also worth pointing out each bounty gives 12500 rep, which is very generous compared to the other areas, so if you're talking about time actually playing the content then Holdfast is actually quite quick. If you are talking about the number of days that you have to hand in voidplumes then sure, you have a point.

Edited by Myrdinz
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Le 09/08/2022 à 16:24, Slayer-. a dit :

I'd say that's because your gun is through their hitbox and out the otherside, I've had it happen to myself, game can't work out where your hitbox of your gun and where it shoots to hit the enemy, instead it shoots through them.

Yes this is it, just finding ridiculous to have to be 2 meter away from a container to be sure to not miss it while shooting through if 30 cm away, same problem with invisible bullet proof corners, after all this years they could at least have refined those hit boxes.

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10 minutes ago, Carmelitha said:

Yes this is it, just finding ridiculous to have to be 2 meter away from a container to be sure to not miss it while shooting through if 30 cm away, same problem with invisible bullet proof corners, after all this years they could at least have refined those hit boxes.

It's especially crazy when you're being hammered on in a corner, you need to go to kid mode to dash through them then turn and shoot.

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On 2022-08-02 at 11:12 PM, master_of_destiny said:
Stage Ostron Quills Solaris United Vox Solaris Vent Kids Entrati Necraloid Holdfasts
Level Up 240000 240000 240000 240000 240000 240000 71000 240000
Level Up Standing 0 7500 37400 36000 0 38600 122500 95000
Weapons/Amps 113000 21500 45250 27000 75000 63500 248000 464500
Arcanes 600000 2152500 840000 2835000 0 0 0 2215500
Content (other) 0 2500 0 25000 492500 20000 50000 20000
Companions 0 0 102500 0 0 110000 60000 90000
Cosmetics 1335000 653000 681500 220000 50000 1023000 85000 2403000
Fishing (no bait) 1500 0 5500 0 0 5500 0 0
Mining 164750 0 98500 0 0 32000 0 0
Capture (no boosters) 6500 0 34000 0 0 8000 0 0
                 
Total 2460750 3077000 2084650 3383000 857500 1540600 636500 5528000

While I do agree that holdfast sucks and is probably the worst syndicate in the game I have to point something out.
The two biggest standing sinks in holdfast are cosmetics and arcanes.

The arcanes can drop from thrax enemies, and so can be farmed through the void cascade mission which spawns a lot of them. And you're almost guaranteed to pick up a few of them simply through the process of working your way up the ranks of the syndicate and farming standing for everything else. They're unique from the other factions that sell arcanes because standing isn't the only method to obtain them. It's more of an rng protection. Their cost can technically be 0.

And I'm assuming the cosmetics are mostly the dormizone decorations. At least a very, very large chunk of it is. And I'd write those off entirely. Not a lot of people heavily engage in the decorating system of this game and even for those that do, a lot of the dormizone decorations aren't all that great. And the thing about decorating the dormizone and orbiter is that you have to go out of your way to invite another person into them just be be like "look at my stuff" so most players rarely if ever do this. These are fringe items that only a small amount of the player base would care about enough to actually bother buying more than a handfull of.

Cosmetics in general are totally optional. There's no point in buying a cosmetic you never intend on using. They don't affect mastery or gameplay. I'm a pretty heavy completionist but trying to get every cosmetic in this game... If you're doing that you should probably stop. And I'm saying that as someone who farmed up every litch ephemera. Some of which took me literally months of grinding to get.

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18 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

While I do agree that holdfast sucks and is probably the worst syndicate in the game I have to point something out.
The two biggest standing sinks in holdfast are cosmetics and arcanes.

The arcanes can drop from thrax enemies, and so can be farmed through the void cascade mission which spawns a lot of them. And you're almost guaranteed to pick up a few of them simply through the process of working your way up the ranks of the syndicate and farming standing for everything else. They're unique from the other factions that sell arcanes because standing isn't the only method to obtain them. It's more of an rng protection. Their cost can technically be 0.

And I'm assuming the cosmetics are mostly the dormizone decorations. At least a very, very large chunk of it is. And I'd write those off entirely. Not a lot of people heavily engage in the decorating system of this game and even for those that do, a lot of the dormizone decorations aren't all that great. And the thing about decorating the dormizone and orbiter is that you have to go out of your way to invite another person into them just be be like "look at my stuff" so most players rarely if ever do this. These are fringe items that only a small amount of the player base would care about enough to actually bother buying more than a handfull of.

Cosmetics in general are totally optional. There's no point in buying a cosmetic you never intend on using. They don't affect mastery or gameplay. I'm a pretty heavy completionist but trying to get every cosmetic in this game... If you're doing that you should probably stop. And I'm saying that as someone who farmed up every litch ephemera. Some of which took me literally months of grinding to get.

 

You'll note that far later in the conversation thread I highlighted that you theoretically could shave a few days off of your grind through RNG.  The problem is that is entirely incapable of being calculated, as you have an infinite number of paths to grind through the standing.  

Regarding the dormizone stuff, let me cover this one more time.  The argument was that this was a content poor, grind heavy launch.  I understand not buying the cosmetics...because I chose not to.  That said, the bar is set at buy everything=content done.  If you decide not to purchase cosmetics that's just dandy.  I'm looking at this as DE has added W content with a total of Y price.  They give us option Z to purchase all of it.  If W<previous W then the update is smaller.  Is Y>>previous Y then it's grindier.  If Z is less, and W/Y is smaller then we are in a bad situation.

 

You are welcome to come at this as half measures.  I implore you to play what is fun.  That said, I look at the content as a whole.  If you do, it's easier to see where DE put their resources...and the picture is pretty grim.  That's especially true when you consider that they only recently pegged in faction armors with a rather nutty cost...and before that the math is even more heavily skewed to the Zariman being insanely priced.  You'll note that both ephemera are almost the cost of one faction armor set...and I don't see one for the Zariman quite yet.

 

 

I'll end with a tolerance level bit.  You said that you did all of the grinding for the Ephemeras.  Good for you.  That's adding an insane amount of engagement time that DE didn't really have to put more work into.  RNG for the Lich spawn, player control for the element, RNG for the requiem order, RNG for the relic drop, RNG for the Requiem rewards, grind for the knowledge of the Requiems, and a final RNG layer to the Lich spawn.  Cap this off with RNG for the drop, and you'll start to see that there's very little actual content with the Lich for how much grind is asked for.

Again, my personal take is that I have the 2-3 good weapons in inventory, I leveled the rest, and I sold the Seer like the polished turd it was.  The ephemera are nice, but not worth that miserable grind.  I am living true to my point, that DE is installing more grind than fun...so I don't engage.  That's a pretty dangerous cycle for a company so driven by engagement time...and it getting worse is the start of a death spiral.

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On 2022-08-12 at 5:06 PM, Myrdinz said:

Just want to point out, yes its a lot of farm, but your numbers DO lie, as you can get all of the arcanes as drops during missions, seperate from rep farm.

Also worth pointing out each bounty gives 12500 rep, which is very generous compared to the other areas, so if you're talking about time actually playing the content then Holdfast is actually quite quick. If you are talking about the number of days that you have to hand in voidplumes then sure, you have a point.

 

You know...it's pretty funny that people latch onto one thing...and miss the forest for all the trees.

 

1) 12500 is the reward for a tier 5 bounty, with 5 quills rewarded.  It's not going to be an option for long...because the people that are capable of plowing through it will burn through this content quickly.  If you want a visual, try and fight the Profit Taker (or her sister) when there isn't an event.  Getting a group of random people is a minor miracle.  

2) 10% chances....  That's great.  Every 10 enemies I'm statistically going to get a reward worth between a few thousand and 10,000 standing.  Let me do the math...and come to the conclusion that at about 200 eidolon captures I had a grand total of less than 10 of the highest rank arcanes.  RNG really can be fickle.

3) The numbers don't lie...because the alternative is to also count all the junk lying around your dormizone.  It's kind of silly to start the lying here, because on the same token you could say that cosmetics don't matter to you.  Maybe you didn't like Moas.  Maybe you really didn't like the Deimos kitguns.  You see, that's the problem with you putting arbitrary qualifications in place to change the equation.  It's also why I stated my assumptions up front.  Did you catch that?

 

 

So let me short change this.  If you put different meat into the grinder, you get sausage that tastes different.  You make different assumptions, you come to different conclusions.  This is not about lying or not, it's about your biases.  I laid mine out, and if they don't jibe that doesn't make them wrong.  It makes my sausage herbier, and yours meatier.  If the question is whether or not the content DE is putting out is a grindy mess, and you want to give them the benefit of immaculate RNG, that's fine.  I prefer to live in the real world, where RNG is often the tool used to hide miserable grind behind a dopamine hit that makes you (the ambiguous humans, to include myself, not just you the person) keep going because our stupid brains are wired to miss the forest for those trees.

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5 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

The argument was that this was a content poor, grind heavy launch.

Yes but my point was just that using standing costs to gauge how grindy an update involving a faction is isn't a great metric. The other parts of the game you were comparing it to have other grinds that don't show up in your comparison if your only point of comparison is standing costs. Eidolan boss arcanes (yes I know you can get those from orphix now but... who actually wants to do that), toroids and gravimag parts from Fortuna, Everything associated with Isolation vaults on Deimos, fishing, mining, the entirely of the conservation grind for all 3 of them, exct...

Just using standing as a metric disproportionately skews your results hard towards Holdfast. Because Holdfast used more items purchasable with standing to compensate for a lack of those other things. Which does prove your point that it's a lot of grind for a comparably small amount of content. Just the way you presented it greatly exaggerates how bad the standing part of the grind is when that's mostly just an arbitrary number that doesn't really mean anything.

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11 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

1) 12500 is the reward for a tier 5 bounty, with 5 quills rewarded.  It's not going to be an option for long...because the people that are capable of plowing through it will burn through this content quickly.  If you want a visual, try and fight the Profit Taker (or her sister) when there isn't an event.  Getting a group of random people is a minor miracle.  

Sure, but if the bounty is too hard for you do the easier ones. My point was that the bounties for the Holdfasts give around 5x the rep that equivalent bounties in other areas give. The fact that these rewards are so inflated kind of contradicts your idea of the grind. These rewards by the way are not including all of the random rep rewards that are hidden in the map, I ignored those as even IF you ignore them completely the grind is significantly less than other areas.

11 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

2) 10% chances....  That's great.  Every 10 enemies I'm statistically going to get a reward worth between a few thousand and 10,000 standing.  Let me do the math...and come to the conclusion that at about 200 eidolon captures I had a grand total of less than 10 of the highest rank arcanes.  RNG really can be fickle.

Sure its a 10% chance, but still cuts out thousands of the standing you need each time they drop, if you are talking about the cost to buy everything once then it can still significantly reduce the grind needed.

11 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

3) The numbers don't lie...because the alternative is to also count all the junk lying around your dormizone.  It's kind of silly to start the lying here, because on the same token you could say that cosmetics don't matter to you.  Maybe you didn't like Moas.  Maybe you really didn't like the Deimos kitguns.  You see, that's the problem with you putting arbitrary qualifications in place to change the equation.  It's also why I stated my assumptions up front.  Did you catch that?

Sure I could have said that the cosmetics don't matter, but I don't need to, your conclusion was wrong without me having to alter the parameters. I used the same assumptions you did to show you that.

  

11 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

So let me short change this.  If you put different meat into the grinder, you get sausage that tastes different.  You make different assumptions, you come to different conclusions.  This is not about lying or not, it's about your biases.  I laid mine out, and if they don't jibe that doesn't make them wrong.  It makes my sausage herbier, and yours meatier.  If the question is whether or not the content DE is putting out is a grindy mess, and you want to give them the benefit of immaculate RNG, that's fine.  I prefer to live in the real world, where RNG is often the tool used to hide miserable grind behind a dopamine hit that makes you (the ambiguous humans, to include myself, not just you the person) keep going because our stupid brains are wired to miss the forest for those trees.

I didn't use different assumptions, I used the same numbers that you did. I didn't use the idea of immaculate RNG just the idea that there will be SOME arcanes dropping, nothing more. The "meat" of my argument is that if the *guaranteed* rewards from the bounties are 5x higher than other areas, the total cost being twice as much doesn't seem so bad does it?

 

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10 hours ago, Myrdinz said:

Sure, but if the bounty is too hard for you do the easier ones. My point was that the bounties for the Holdfasts give around 5x the rep that equivalent bounties in other areas give. The fact that these rewards are so inflated kind of contradicts your idea of the grind. These rewards by the way are not including all of the random rep rewards that are hidden in the map, I ignored those as even IF you ignore them completely the grind is significantly less than other areas.

Sure its a 10% chance, but still cuts out thousands of the standing you need each time they drop, if you are talking about the cost to buy everything once then it can still significantly reduce the grind needed.

Sure I could have said that the cosmetics don't matter, but I don't need to, your conclusion was wrong without me having to alter the parameters. I used the same assumptions you did to show you that.

  

I didn't use different assumptions, I used the same numbers that you did. I didn't use the idea of immaculate RNG just the idea that there will be SOME arcanes dropping, nothing more. The "meat" of my argument is that if the *guaranteed* rewards from the bounties are 5x higher than other areas, the total cost being twice as much doesn't seem so bad does it?

 

 

Let me summarize this one last time, so you can understand.  At the beginning I stated that you would buy one of everything.  I stated that you would buy 21 arcanes.  I also stated that you did nothing else...so no multiple builds for things like Moas or Kitguns to try new combos.

 

Why did I state this?

 

Let me tell you something that you should be able to understand inherently.  If you change those assumptions the numbers change.  Period.  Let me give you a real situation.  I don't have to engage with the content of the Zariman, beyond the 60 or so void plume pinions that are required.  I can theoretically do this rather easily, and never get a dropped arcane of significant value.  How?  Well, there are these things called universal medallions.  Have you considered that?  I'll assume not.

Well, if I wanted to grind the ever loving crap out of a Lua mission, I could earn the vanishingly rare universal medallion, and on day one have a few hundred in inventory.  Plow them into the level up, and face a total of about 3 thrax units per run.  61*3 = 183.  0.9^183 = 4.2*10^-9....so the likelihood of getting at least one arcane is high...let's do some math there.  We'll assume that you earn three arcane drops, based upon the 1.6 in 1000 chance that you don't get one (0.9^61=0.0016).  Let's assume that the arcanes have a consistent drop value...based upon nothing...  That means AVERAGE(5*5000+2*5500+3*7500+2*8500+3*10000) = 105500/15 = 7033.33 (excuse the capitalization, too much time in excel with equations).  7033.333*3 = 21100....but the range of course is 15000 to 30000 (also note that the distance from average to minimum is about 6k while average to highest is 9k...meaning that it's heavily skewed to be lower).  Hmmm....1000 standing per universal medallion...so 15 to 30 medallions less to earn.  That's even smaller if you decide to take your math, and use the 2500 medallion rewards for running missions.

(All of the above assumes your thrax doesn't get called back to their home planet, and phase through the ceiling or floor.  A bug I've seen way too often.)

 

I'm hoping that you now understand this...the phrase elsewhere is garbage in garbage out, or GIGO.  The entire reason that I didn't explain all of this is that it would literally take hundreds of hours to calculate enough permutations of the earning process to realistically show enough possible earnings avenues.  I short circuit that entire discussion by stating up front that RNG is not considered, and the other conditions.

 

Numbers don't lie.  I didn't lie.  Your inductive reasoning doesn't lie.  Now let me tell you that both you and I are humans.  Our idiot brains assume things like a 10% chance means after 10 tries I have a thing, not that after 10 tries I have won between 0 and 10 times, and the probability of losing all 10 in 0.9^10 = 34.88%.  This is why inductive reasoning makes stupid things feel alright.  I was just unlucky, but I saw someone else win so it's possible.  It's not such a bad grind, because once every so often during the game I get a random hit of dopamine to make the grind not so bad...because living in a Skinner box is really hard for most people to accept.

If it isn't clear already, I start from the assumption that my anecdotal results are garbage.  In fact, everyone's anecdotal experience is garbage.  This is why we need to state base assumptions.  It's also why the math is so often against DE's constructed experience.  They made the trap, and baited it well. 

Putting this into cause and effect statements from DE to the player base.  You complained that you couldn't grind constantly, we gave you medallions that you can grind infinitely.  You complained that the cost was too high, we silently included medallions in the rank-up cost to make the number constant but the actual requirement increase.  You complained that you burnt through the content we set on the table in a matter of days, well we'll just triple to low value cosmetics and make another area to "personalize."  It's not like you have the orbiter and your dojo already...let's turn up the fashion frame is endgame meme from 10 to 12, and break that knob right off the amplifier.  

 

 

Let me end with a simple request, that needs a lot of explanation to make sense.  Please separate the mouse trap from the reward, and be wary that DE has a history of doing things that are crappy until it reaches a boiling point.  It may be hard to accept this, but the human brain is wired to trust and work inductively.  Gambling, whether we spend real money or our time, is meant to prey on that failure in inductive logic.  This game is gambling, period.  You input time, get a roll at a reward, and keep coming back until you either value your time more and buy the thing or get the reward.  Consider that when you defend DE...because monetization experts know this.  They design system like the Zariman over years, to gently start people believing in benevolent actions...until they become malevolent. 

That sounds far fetched, but let me end with the arc of warframe.  In the early days content patches were left, right and center.  You logged on, because this week might introduce a new weapon or frame.  They transitioned into a daily reward scheme, with alerts to spice things up.  They then introduced daily missions via RAIDs and Sorties.  The daily reward system was not pumping out anything of real value, so they setup bigger rewards at regular intervals.  They then decided that the alert system was passe, and started nightwave.  Nightwave is "bigger rewards" with longer timing and maintains the required daily logins lest you miss 7k credits a week.  It offers significantly less random reactors and catalysts as random rewards, runs for half a year, delivers mostly cosmetics as new content, and forces content recycling.  That Eidolon hunt is always a joke, when Scarlet Spear allowed us to get better than a 5% arcane drop rate...  That said, is Nightwave more rewarding?  That's debatable when near the end you've spent months grinding out standing.  Newer players get a hard time, because running a level 15 exterminate for Energy Siphon used to be great...assuming the stars aligned and the alert happened while you were playing.  Now it's grind out rep, wait for RNG appearance that week, and buy.  I cannot say that Nightwave is worse...but I'm also finding it hard to justify caring about the game any more once nightwave hits level 30 and it's another 2-3 months before any content releases...knowing that DE is just using Nightwave to recycle old content for key resources because their content loop has no inherent value in retreading things.  Who actually does a level 15 capture on a planet, when the same level capture in the void is equally challenging but rewards a guaranteed relic as well?  Ahh...the malevolence of apathy.  Apathy in that content was not really designed to be always relevant. 

(Let me give you an example. Guild Wars 2 had level scaling, so epic level 30 loot in a level 10 area was stronger than the stuff there, but nerfed so it was still a challenge.  I don't think a power fantasy looter-shooter should do the same, but there are ways to make things better.  The DE response was add 100 levels, 200% multipliers, and don't scale the mission rewards.  AKA, the Steel Path.  This means all the rewards are about slaughter rather than the missions...which by nature of apathy makes mission rewards functionally such a small part of the reward pie as to be irrelevant.  This means that you really only pay attention to mission type, faction, and largely ignore the other stuff.)

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19 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Yes but my point was just that using standing costs to gauge how grindy an update involving a faction is isn't a great metric. The other parts of the game you were comparing it to have other grinds that don't show up in your comparison if your only point of comparison is standing costs. Eidolan boss arcanes (yes I know you can get those from orphix now but... who actually wants to do that), toroids and gravimag parts from Fortuna, Everything associated with Isolation vaults on Deimos, fishing, mining, the entirely of the conservation grind for all 3 of them, exct...

Just using standing as a metric disproportionately skews your results hard towards Holdfast. Because Holdfast used more items purchasable with standing to compensate for a lack of those other things. Which does prove your point that it's a lot of grind for a comparably small amount of content. Just the way you presented it greatly exaggerates how bad the standing part of the grind is when that's mostly just an arbitrary number that doesn't really mean anything.

 

So, we've got 3 new variants of Mobile Defense as our gameplay loop.  You then need to earn a bunch of standing giving items in these mobile defense variants to get rewards.  Cool.

 

Your rebuttal is the Eidolons and Isolation Vaults. 

Eidolons were literally the first time warframe introduced a proper semi-cinematic boss fight (barring the RAIDs).  Remember that to initially get the amps you needed to grind out a ton of vomvalysts, rank up in the Quills, buy the blue prints, build the amp, level it up, and then kit it with an arcane to make it feel like your operator was made out of anything more than paper mache.  

The Isolation vaults are search, mobile defense, exterminate, exterminate a boss, mobile defense, and a memorization game.  Their rewards were a guaranteed two draws from the pool, a vault with stuff, fighting 1-3 bosses (necramechs) who could drop parts and would drop standing items.  I will readily admit that the initial rewards table sucked heavily, but the eventual content rewards now trivialize the Eidolons, and can be used in the open worlds.  This is all glossing over the archwing weapons...but I'm fine with that when the Mausolon basically re-wrote the standard for those and it came for free with Voidrig.

 

 

What does Zariman offer?  The weapons are interesting, but match the other open worlds.  The cosmetics are to be put aside, as they are non-gameplay.  This leaves...the unlocker for a second arcane with the amp and the arcanes themselves.  So...no new gameplay or mechanics...but at least we have content that dramatically powers the operator up if you're willing to do a lot of grinding for both 21 arcanes and the 20k standing to unlock an amp.  Heck, it's even great to have that step up because the self contained Thrax and void angels get much easier...but at least the screen filling boss battle that's supposed to be an epic fight is now also trivialized when a half competent team of two can basically curb stomp any eidolon by instantly melting its shields and using the necramech to pop limbs like a porcupine at a balloon factory.

If it isn't clear, I tried to use the metric of standing costs because it's easy to understand 320000 standing at 32000 a day means 10 days of logins period.  The second I try to accurately slot the content into how it influences other things, and what it's composed of, I cannot accurately apply logic and provide a reasonably unbiased result.  I immediately start to see idiotic levels of power creep, destruction of formerly challenging (debatably) content, and all of this in service to three new mobile defense modes that now require you to play hide and seek to earn standing for.  Yes you can grind quills for most of it...but the level ups and construction still require hide and seek for pinions and the other standings.

 

 

Let me end by stating that I have an opinion.  I like the guns, I like a limited number of the arcanes.  I even like the fact that amps no longer feel like dead weight despite their cost.  These are opinions often supported by the promise of the future, or novelty of the experience.  Neither of those can be quantified, and it'd be equally as acceptable for someone to tell me they suck.  Unsurprisingly, I support the opposite point as the one I feel...because feelings are stupid.  What I can tell you is that DE has a monetization design person (or department).  They measure engagement time.  Engagement time is driven by both content, and price.  Both are objectively measurable.  You'd better believe that they had a hand in 100k standing required to unlock a room with features already present on the orbiter.  They had a hand in introducing millions of focus worth of cosmetics...so you can turn your operator skin blue.  They had a hand in introducing literal 20 minute projects in blender (the food cubes again) that cost as long to grind out the standing for.

 

Whether you like it or not, DE has a target engagement time for content.  Free to play still has to make money.  You can debate whether Eidolons and Necramechs are still worth discussing.  I'm also fine with discussing the garbage drop rates for things that the community torched DE over (I did my fair share when the mech mods literally couldn't be applied, if you could get them to drop, because 12 slots all forma'd with 60 capacity was too little capacity).  These are fair arguments against numbers via stupidity on the part of DE.  I'm not here to discuss any of that.  Zariman introduced no new gameplay.  It rebranded mobile defense thrice, slightly reworked the Kuva Guardians, and only slightly changed flow by having a Lich style battle with the culmination being a blast of operator magic rather than stabbing with a parazon (note the reuse of Nihil mechanics).

You're free to believe that I'm wrong.  The Zariman has more, and my simplifications are wrong.  Cool, you're as right as I am...given that all games are largely built on the foundation of others.  My point is there is no centerpiece.  There is no move forward.  This would mathematically be tolerable if it didn't cost more than any other faction...  It wouldn't be as intolerable if the grind mathematically matched say Vox Solaris.  A faction that brought a bunch of arcanes to the table, Hildryn, Baruuk, amps, and a wide range of cosmetics.  A faction that required finding toroids...or grinding a boss to get those toroids to drop.  Instead the math states that for roughly the same content as Vox Solaris we got the Zariman...and the price is out of this world.  Even adding another 200k (200 regular toroids) standing to Vox Solaris (assuming I screwed up the math), the price difference is 2 million standing.  That's 62.5 days worth of logins...

 

 

I really want to pay DE to keep developing this game.  I bought into their plan years ago, before the twice yearly content schedule.  Now I'm seeing less content, more grind, and all of it couched in such a way as our stupid inductive reasoning based brains quite easily miss the increases in cost.  I...really need other people to see that.  It's easy to demonstrate when you break things down into categories and costs...removing the intermediary conversion costs hidden by fake currency.  When you do you may well skew reality because people don't want to believe that things have changed so much.  I...can only state that I saw this coming with Deimos tokens.  Anyone who has been to a theme park saw it.  The second intermediary currency is introduced it is an exploit.  See: Disney Bucks.  The trick is to introduce them as a benefit, get them accepted, and then pull the cord to hide extra costs...  It's amazing what humans have done to manipulate others.  DE waited an entire two years before making it large scale...sneaking it in first to Fortuna cosmetics, then Deimos Seriglass shards and Grandmother tokens.  I do admire their....voracious pursuit of exploitative costing structures.

 

 

 

*Edit*

Let me also address the initial comment directly.  The above is more obtuse.  I am fine with grind that is based around new content.  Yes Eidolon hunting sucks at 5% drops that require 21 drops...but there was a time when you needed 10.  There was a time when the Eidolons could be melted with a good party, but were a 1-2 per night thing for a random group.  

I can get behind the Eidolons, and Iso Vaults, because they at least strove to have something new.

The Zariman is 5 missions.  2 are existing modes.  The "boss" is mini-Nihil.  The three "new" modes are reskinned mobile defense.  Not new...so it's asking for a huge grind of a cosmetic change to what we already have.  I cannot abide that.  Your mileage may vary, but I have the Sibear and about 100k cryotic.  I have Tremba Essence in inventory.  My point is that I'm willing to grind new stuff, to a surprising extent.  The Zariman is...so much more grind for nothing that I'd suggest it was a joke if I didn't know better.

Let me put it in a sentence.  If the Zariman introduced a genuinely new game mode I'd gladly grind like the good idiot my brain lets me be.  Take that for what you will.  I know that without quantifying the Zariman grind I'd feel like it was a waste...and once quantified I know why I did.  That said, I'm still happy to pull out the occasional Iso Vault...because it's a fun and highly materially rewarding mission...even if it's not burning up the world.  It's at least trivially different from most missions...

*Edit End*

Edited by master_of_destiny
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3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

So, we've got 3 new variants of Mobile Defense as our gameplay loop.  You then need to earn a bunch of standing giving items in these mobile defense variants to get rewards.  Cool.

 

Your rebuttal is the Eidolons and Isolation Vaults. 

Eidolons were literally the first time warframe introduced a proper semi-cinematic boss fight (barring the RAIDs).  Remember that to initially get the amps you needed to grind out a ton of vomvalysts, rank up in the Quills, buy the blue prints, build the amp, level it up, and then kit it with an arcane to make it feel like your operator was made out of anything more than paper mache.  

The Isolation vaults are search, mobile defense, exterminate, exterminate a boss, mobile defense, and a memorization game.  Their rewards were a guaranteed two draws from the pool, a vault with stuff, fighting 1-3 bosses (necramechs) who could drop parts and would drop standing items.  I will readily admit that the initial rewards table sucked heavily, but the eventual content rewards now trivialize the Eidolons, and can be used in the open worlds.  This is all glossing over the archwing weapons...but I'm fine with that when the Mausolon basically re-wrote the standard for those and it came for free with Voidrig.

 

 

What does Zariman offer?  The weapons are interesting, but match the other open worlds.  The cosmetics are to be put aside, as they are non-gameplay.  This leaves...the unlocker for a second arcane with the amp and the arcanes themselves.  So...no new gameplay or mechanics...but at least we have content that dramatically powers the operator up if you're willing to do a lot of grinding for both 21 arcanes and the 20k standing to unlock an amp.  Heck, it's even great to have that step up because the self contained Thrax and void angels get much easier...but at least the screen filling boss battle that's supposed to be an epic fight is now also trivialized when a half competent team of two can basically curb stomp any eidolon by instantly melting its shields and using the necramech to pop limbs like a porcupine at a balloon factory.

If it isn't clear, I tried to use the metric of standing costs because it's easy to understand 320000 standing at 32000 a day means 10 days of logins period.  The second I try to accurately slot the content into how it influences other things, and what it's composed of, I cannot accurately apply logic and provide a reasonably unbiased result.  I immediately start to see idiotic levels of power creep, destruction of formerly challenging (debatably) content, and all of this in service to three new mobile defense modes that now require you to play hide and seek to earn standing for.  Yes you can grind quills for most of it...but the level ups and construction still require hide and seek for pinions and the other standings.

 

 

Let me end by stating that I have an opinion.  I like the guns, I like a limited number of the arcanes.  I even like the fact that amps no longer feel like dead weight despite their cost.  These are opinions often supported by the promise of the future, or novelty of the experience.  Neither of those can be quantified, and it'd be equally as acceptable for someone to tell me they suck.  Unsurprisingly, I support the opposite point as the one I feel...because feelings are stupid.  What I can tell you is that DE has a monetization design person (or department).  They measure engagement time.  Engagement time is driven by both content, and price.  Both are objectively measurable.  You'd better believe that they had a hand in 100k standing required to unlock a room with features already present on the orbiter.  They had a hand in introducing millions of focus worth of cosmetics...so you can turn your operator skin blue.  They had a hand in introducing literal 20 minute projects in blender (the food cubes again) that cost as long to grind out the standing for.

 

Whether you like it or not, DE has a target engagement time for content.  Free to play still has to make money.  You can debate whether Eidolons and Necramechs are still worth discussing.  I'm also fine with discussing the garbage drop rates for things that the community torched DE over (I did my fair share when the mech mods literally couldn't be applied, if you could get them to drop, because 12 slots all forma'd with 60 capacity was too little capacity).  These are fair arguments against numbers via stupidity on the part of DE.  I'm not here to discuss any of that.  Zariman introduced no new gameplay.  It rebranded mobile defense thrice, slightly reworked the Kuva Guardians, and only slightly changed flow by having a Lich style battle with the culmination being a blast of operator magic rather than stabbing with a parazon (note the reuse of Nihil mechanics).

You're free to believe that I'm wrong.  The Zariman has more, and my simplifications are wrong.  Cool, you're as right as I am...given that all games are largely built on the foundation of others.  My point is there is no centerpiece.  There is no move forward.  This would mathematically be tolerable if it didn't cost more than any other faction...  It wouldn't be as intolerable if the grind mathematically matched say Vox Solaris.  A faction that brought a bunch of arcanes to the table, Hildryn, Baruuk, amps, and a wide range of cosmetics.  A faction that required finding toroids...or grinding a boss to get those toroids to drop.  Instead the math states that for roughly the same content as Vox Solaris we got the Zariman...and the price is out of this world.  Even adding another 200k (200 regular toroids) standing to Vox Solaris (assuming I screwed up the math), the price difference is 2 million standing.  That's 62.5 days worth of logins...

 

 

I really want to pay DE to keep developing this game.  I bought into their plan years ago, before the twice yearly content schedule.  Now I'm seeing less content, more grind, and all of it couched in such a way as our stupid inductive reasoning based brains quite easily miss the increases in cost.  I...really need other people to see that.  It's easy to demonstrate when you break things down into categories and costs...removing the intermediary conversion costs hidden by fake currency.  When you do you may well skew reality because people don't want to believe that things have changed so much.  I...can only state that I saw this coming with Deimos tokens.  Anyone who has been to a theme park saw it.  The second intermediary currency is introduced it is an exploit.  See: Disney Bucks.  The trick is to introduce them as a benefit, get them accepted, and then pull the cord to hide extra costs...  It's amazing what humans have done to manipulate others.  DE waited an entire two years before making it large scale...sneaking it in first to Fortuna cosmetics, then Deimos Seriglass shards and Grandmother tokens.  I do admire their....voracious pursuit of exploitative costing structures.

 

 

 

*Edit*

Let me also address the initial comment directly.  The above is more obtuse.  I am fine with grind that is based around new content.  Yes Eidolon hunting sucks at 5% drops that require 21 drops...but there was a time when you needed 10.  There was a time when the Eidolons could be melted with a good party, but were a 1-2 per night thing for a random group.  

I can get behind the Eidolons, and Iso Vaults, because they at least strove to have something new.

The Zariman is 5 missions.  2 are existing modes.  The "boss" is mini-Nihil.  The three "new" modes are reskinned mobile defense.  Not new...so it's asking for a huge grind of a cosmetic change to what we already have.  I cannot abide that.  Your mileage may vary, but I have the Sibear and about 100k cryotic.  I have Tremba Essence in inventory.  My point is that I'm willing to grind new stuff, to a surprising extent.  The Zariman is...so much more grind for nothing that I'd suggest it was a joke if I didn't know better.

Let me put it in a sentence.  If the Zariman introduced a genuinely new game mode I'd gladly grind like the good idiot my brain lets me be.  Take that for what you will.  I know that without quantifying the Zariman grind I'd feel like it was a waste...and once quantified I know why I did.  That said, I'm still happy to pull out the occasional Iso Vault...because it's a fun and highly materially rewarding mission...even if it's not burning up the world.  It's at least trivially different from most missions...

*Edit End*

I've agreed with you no less than 3 times over the course of this conversation. literally all I was trying to say was the way you presented standing as an analogue for how grindy each point of comparison was doesn't work because standing isn't the only grind each one has. And two points I didn't even bring up cus I was trying to keep things short and readable are that standing is gained at different rates, in different ways, for a different amount of effort in each example. The same amount of standing doesn't equal the same amount of grind for each system in the game that uses it. It looks straightforward on paper but its not, it's like comparing currencies from different countries in the real world and saying 1 pence equals 1 yen. It just doesn't translate that way. Comparing standing like that isn't unbiased ether. It's just misleading.

I was actually going to bring up how I think a lot of the new game modes are lazy recycled trash, but again decided against it to save time and cus I felt like it went off topic from the specific conversation I was trying to have. Armageddon is just endless mobile defense, with a tower defense gimmick that's so worthless it might as well not be there, and a forced boss fight that's not even unique to the mode and leaves the target undefended. It's quite possibly the single worst designed game mode in warframe. Cascade is just interception but across an entire randomly generated map and with a gear check (yay...) instead of a capture time. Flood is the most unique of them but if you squint at it it's just a slightly tweaked survival. I would've loved it if we had to collect the orbs from an obstacle course instead of just bunny hopping around towards the nearest mass of shiny balls.

Also thought about bringing up how stupid it was to make the main method of getting standing the Medallion system from syndicate missions, but again thought it was digressing too much. With how it absolutely ruins players' already lacking ability to cooperate in public missions. Which was such an easily foreseeable issue if one single person on the team that looked at it during production ever saw one of the thousands of complaints about medallions being that way already, or if they bothered to properly play test literally anything ever. and the less obvious but very real issue of how much doing it extends mission time to the point that it's probably faster to ignore it entirely and just clear the mission so you can move on to the next one unless you're after specific plumes for crafting.

One thing I think is worth noting tho is that it was never really meant to be a large update on the level of the open worlds. It's really just an intermediate between the new war and the real next big content update the Duviri paradox. It's more comparable in scope and purpose to updates like Deadlock Protocol, Call of the Tempestarii, or Jovian Concord. It looks and feels like an open world but it's more of an entirely separate thing that's just piggybacking on the open world systems.

But you're right. The Zariman is peak soul sucking "least amount of effort put in for maximum play time" on the devs part. And they've been slowly testing the borders of player's tolerance of it ever since I started playing 5 years ago. Probably much earlier than that.

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