AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Venus-Venera]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AyinDygra:

so AoE isn't disrupting everyone's fun

how should it work?
there are complaints even about wisp, volt, limbo, frost skills etc. 🤦‍♂️
there will always be something to complain about...
because the problem is not the game! but that apparently there is internet in Psychiatric Clinic!

[Dunkelheit]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Venus-Venera:

how should it work?
there are complaints even about wisp, volt, limbo, frost skills etc. 🤦‍♂️
there will always be something to complain about...
because the problem is not the game! but that apparently there is internet in Psychiatric Clinic!

The overwhelming majority is for an AOE nerf. If you don't believe me, just consult Reddit.

Being disrespectful to everyone and posting all day won't help you get what you want.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

4 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

how should it work?
there are complaints even about wisp, volt, limbo, frost skills etc. 🤦‍♂️
there will always be something to complain about...
because the problem is not the game! but that apparently there is internet in Psychiatric Clinic!

The rest of my sentence explained that...

 

26 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I'd rather see more variety in mission objectives, so AoE isn't disrupting everyone's fun, because all missions wouldn't be best served by people killing all the hordes real fast with their AoE.

AoE should be king of any mission where the OBJECTIVE is to kill hordes of enemies. There will NEVER be a valid complaint against a player for killing hordes in such missions. I don't care if you don't have anything to kill because someone else has effectively killed all the enemies around... that's what your team was trying to do. Mission accomplished! Don't get mad that it's working.

With missions added (or objectives), where killing hordes isn't the thing you need to do, AoE won't be needed, and it won't matter if enemies are dead or not, if you're not actively trying to wipe them all out fast. I've given a variety of suggestions above. The primary idea being: new modes that do not benefit from AoE will BY DEFINITITION prevent AoE from being the Most Effective Tactic Available... it removes that tactic!

This doesn't require nerfing AoE, and if people don't want their game ruined by people using AoE, they can play these other mission types! Win/Win.

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AyinDygra:

The rest of my sentence explained that...

I don't have to understand...
but whatever. Everyone has their own opinion.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AyinDygra:

The rest of my sentence explained that...

 

AoE should be king of any mission where the OBJECTIVE is to kill hordes of enemies. There will NEVER be a valid complaint against a player for killing hordes in such missions. I don't care if you don't have anything to kill because someone else has effectively killed all the enemies around... that's what your team was trying to do. Mission accomplished! Don't get mad that it's working.

With missions added (or objectives), where killing hordes isn't the thing you need to do, AoE won't be needed, and it won't matter if enemies are dead or not, if you're not actively trying to wipe them all out fast. I've given a variety of suggestions above. The primary idea being: new modes that do not benefit from AoE will BY DEFINITITION prevent AoE from being the Most Effective Tactic Available... it removes that tactic!

This doesn't require nerfing AoE, and if people don't want their game ruined by people using AoE, they can play these other mission types! Win/Win.

 

Man, if there would be a weapon that instanukes all enemies on the map and instafinishes all the objectives, you would still be here and tell everyone how fun it is to use such mechanics and how everyone who does not have the insta-buttons or does not want to use them is ruining your fun when they want it nerfed.

Now we don't have this instanuke, but the current AOE meta is very, very close to it.

- You can kill enemies without even aiming by just looking at the minimap or shooting at your feet
- If you have a fast frame like Wukong, you will get nearly 95% of all kills on all maps and all modes, which makes it very unfun for everyone who is in your group. And no, it is not fun to finish a mission without even playing it just by running to the exit
- you invalidate all single target weapons... even the mighty new incarnon weapons cannot keep up with a Bramma at all. Hell, you are hardpressed to get your headshots to get into incarnon mode
- This is a multiplayer game with automated matchmaking, so do not ask people to form groups in private to get away form the oppressive meta. Because you could have done it with your Bramma/Zarr friends and maybe a nerf would have never happened
- And no, Frost, Ember, Saryn are not as good as a Wukong with Bramma/Zarr. Ember is very good, but has line of sight issues and loses power very fast when enemies become stronger, Frost is a joke, his 4 takes way too long to cast and his 2 is powerless, Saryn kills slowly and once her stacks are too high, she will kill everything very fast at one point and her stacks will drop. Saryn though, like every other tool in Warframes toolbox, has specific situations when she starts to shine. But and this is a big BUT, when someone plays Saryn I don't have the feeling that I need to play her as well to have a chance to participate in the game. There are many frames who have powerlevel 2, Saryn might have powerlevel 4, but the current AOE meta is powerlevel 30. This is why it needs to be nerfed and this is why having AOE frames who can kill many mobs at once is not an argument or reason not to nerf the AOE meta.
- Yes, there are alternatives which use AOE as well and might take the place of Bramma/Zarr, but they are far, far less oppressive. Noone has anything against a headshot with a Chakkhur killing a couple of enemies. It requires skill and won't happen with every shot.
- Yeah, there are other AOE weapons like Lenz who will somehow get nerfed as well in the same patch. But everyone who uses a Lenz now will continue to use the weapon, because he is surely not using it, because the weapon is so powerful. I use a lot of underpowered weapons myself and no matter how they will be nerfed, I will use them, because they are cool.
- They explained every single problem they have with the AOE meta in detail in the stream #163. I suggest you watch the stream. If you don't understand or accept the reasons, I don't know how to help you. For me, they were precise, crystal clear and very convincing. And for hundreds of others as well.
- The nerfs are very, very sensible and in my humble opinion, they won't solve the problem with AOE meta. But hey, they go slow, which is very nice, so in the end the weapons are not overnerfed and still fun to use. Just play at least after the first wave of nerfs, because your fun won't be gone with them, I promise you. They will only nerf the ammo economy, i.e. they don't want you to kill every single mob with your Bramma/Zarr. And they will nerf the range of the explosions. Both are very reasonable and sensible changes if you put it in relation with the enormously oppressive meta.
- Yes,  this is a horde shooter, but even a horde shooter is bad when you kill every enemy in the vicinity by pressing one button, without aiming or without showing any skill at all.
- No, you cannot lift everything in this game to the level of current AOE meta, so that every weapon, every frame and every button clears the whole room in an instant without any skill involved. Even if DE would manage to miraculously get every single of the 500+ weapons to this status, I would simply quit the game, because it is the most boring thing I could even imagine
- last but not least, there are single target weapons which do as much dmg per shot as a Bramma/Zarr, even the great ones but against one target instead of the whole room. Don't you think this is bad?


I know you won't accept any of those arguments, because they have been posted numerous times and you still post and post and post and don't give up. Just go back in time and dig up postings that happened before the melee meta nerf. It was supposed to be the end of the game, the end of the universe and the end of time itself according to many users here. Turns out, it wasn't and now you have other options than playing melee, but melee is still useful and fun.

Wouldn't it be great that in the end the available options are all viable and when we play together we all can do our part in having a succesful mission? You use AOE weapon, I use single target weapons, the next guy brings a frame to the table (maybe a CC frame, because CC might be required again) and the last guy uses melee and everyone is happy and we can share the success. How is that bad for the game? And how does your idea of fun trump that?
 

[MekaDovah]

The way I see it: if ammo is too hard to come by for certain weapons, they're simply not going to be used and we'll just use the weapons that don't have this issue, but otherwise produce the same results and literally nothing changes. 

Either way, certain weapons just won't get used because they're not convenient. It's always going to boil down to convenience. As far as I'm concerned, I suspect this means everyone will go from complaining about ranged AoE to something else, but similar.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Minute schrieb MekaDovah:

The way I see it: if ammo is too hard to come by for certain weapons, they're simply not going to be used and we'll just use the weapons that don't have this issue, but otherwise produce the same results and literally nothing changes. 

Either way, certain weapons just won't get used because they're not convenient. It's always going to boil down to convenience. As far as I'm concerned, I suspect this means everyone will go from complaining about ranged AoE to something else, but similar.

there are already weapons like bubonico or weak tenet alternatives for kuva nukor. this means that high-end content can actually be played very comfortably.

somehow devs themselves don't understand what they're doing. Because instead of ruining popular weapons, they shouldn't have simply designed useless junk. then the things would also be sold in the game.

but now everyone will be walking around with ignis wraith. (mr9 weapon for 15k credits)

[MekaDovah]

5 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

there are already weapons like bubonico or weak tenet alternatives for kuva nukor. this means that high-end content can actually be played very comfortably.

somehow devs themselves don't understand what they're doing. Because instead of ruining popular weapons, they shouldn't have simply designed useless junk. then the things would also be sold in the game.

but now everyone will be walking around with ignis wraith. (mr9 weapon for 15k credits)

And we'll be right back here listening to people whine about the Ignis Wraith because "wah, takes no skill, doesn't get you killed often enough, wah."

 

10 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Wouldn't it be great that in the end the available options are all viable and when we play together we all can do our part in having a succesful mission? You use AOE weapon, I use single target weapons, the next guy brings a frame to the table (maybe a CC frame, because CC might be required again) and the last guy uses melee and everyone is happy and we can share the success.
 

It would be great. My friends and I already play Warframe like this for the most part. I think a good place to start is for the elitists to ditch their "everyone's gotta play my way" attitude. No in game change will make any difference if everyone still has a bad perception and attitude about people who play different.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No thank you.

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

I think it's because of the disparity between our Warframe's effective health and their effective damage.  The OP's suggestion to set a number cap for self damage, not a percent of our own damage, makes more sense than the way Warframe used to do it.  Even capping our self damage at 1% of what we do to enemies would overkill us by absurd degrees.

 

I'm just going to wait and see how DE's changes play out before offering an opinion on it.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

3 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Man, if there would be a weapon that instanukes all enemies on the map and instafinishes all the objectives, you would still be here and tell everyone how fun it is to use such mechanics and how everyone who does not have the insta-buttons or does not want to use them is ruining your fun when they want it nerfed.

Now we don't have this instanuke, but the current AOE meta is very, very close to it.

- You can kill enemies without even aiming by just looking at the minimap or shooting at your feet
- If you have a fast frame like Wukong, you will get nearly 95% of all kills on all maps and all modes, which makes it very unfun for everyone who is in your group. And no, it is not fun to finish a mission without even playing it just by running to the exit
- you invalidate all single target weapons... even the mighty new incarnon weapons cannot keep up with a Bramma at all. Hell, you are hardpressed to get your headshots to get into incarnon mode
- This is a multiplayer game with automated matchmaking, so do not ask people to form groups in private to get away form the oppressive meta. Because you could have done it with your Bramma/Zarr friends and maybe a nerf would have never happened
- And no, Frost, Ember, Saryn are not as good as a Wukong with Bramma/Zarr. Ember is very good, but has line of sight issues and loses power very fast when enemies become stronger, Frost is a joke, his 4 takes way too long to cast and his 2 is powerless, Saryn kills slowly and once her stacks are too high, she will kill everything very fast at one point and her stacks will drop. Saryn though, like every other tool in Warframes toolbox, has specific situations when she starts to shine. But and this is a big BUT, when someone plays Saryn I don't have the feeling that I need to play her as well to have a chance to participate in the game. There are many frames who have powerlevel 2, Saryn might have powerlevel 4, but the current AOE meta is powerlevel 30. This is why it needs to be nerfed and this is why having AOE frames who can kill many mobs at once is not an argument or reason not to nerf the AOE meta.
- Yes, there are alternatives which use AOE as well and might take the place of Bramma/Zarr, but they are far, far less oppressive. Noone has anything against a headshot with a Chakkhur killing a couple of enemies. It requires skill and won't happen with every shot.
- Yeah, there are other AOE weapons like Lenz who will somehow get nerfed as well in the same patch. But everyone who uses a Lenz now will continue to use the weapon, because he is surely not using it, because the weapon is so powerful. I use a lot of underpowered weapons myself and no matter how they will be nerfed, I will use them, because they are cool.
- They explained every single problem they have with the AOE meta in detail in the stream #163. I suggest you watch the stream. If you don't understand or accept the reasons, I don't know how to help you. For me, they were precise, crystal clear and very convincing. And for hundreds of others as well.
- The nerfs are very, very sensible and in my humble opinion, they won't solve the problem with AOE meta. But hey, they go slow, which is very nice, so in the end the weapons are not overnerfed and still fun to use. Just play at least after the first wave of nerfs, because your fun won't be gone with them, I promise you. They will only nerf the ammo economy, i.e. they don't want you to kill every single mob with your Bramma/Zarr. And they will nerf the range of the explosions. Both are very reasonable and sensible changes if you put it in relation with the enormously oppressive meta.
- Yes,  this is a horde shooter, but even a horde shooter is bad when you kill every enemy in the vicinity by pressing one button, without aiming or without showing any skill at all.
- No, you cannot lift everything in this game to the level of current AOE meta, so that every weapon, every frame and every button clears the whole room in an instant without any skill involved. Even if DE would manage to miraculously get every single of the 500+ weapons to this status, I would simply quit the game, because it is the most boring thing I could even imagine
- last but not least, there are single target weapons which do as much dmg per shot as a Bramma/Zarr, even the great ones but against one target instead of the whole room. Don't you think this is bad?


I know you won't accept any of those arguments, because they have been posted numerous times and you still post and post and post and don't give up. Just go back in time and dig up postings that happened before the melee meta nerf. It was supposed to be the end of the game, the end of the universe and the end of time itself according to many users here. Turns out, it wasn't and now you have other options than playing melee, but melee is still useful and fun.

Wouldn't it be great that in the end the available options are all viable and when we play together we all can do our part in having a succesful mission? You use AOE weapon, I use single target weapons, the next guy brings a frame to the table (maybe a CC frame, because CC might be required again) and the last guy uses melee and everyone is happy and we can share the success. How is that bad for the game? And how does your idea of fun trump that?
 

You clearly haven't been reading my posts... otherwise, you're putting a lot of words into my mouth that I've never said, nor have I even made points that would lead to some of these comments... so I don't know why I was the target of this reply. To clarify:

I use the Cedo as my "Primary". (mainly for the alt fire once in a while, as a status primer)
I use the Catchmoon as a decoration. (as in, I don't fire it... like ever.)
I use either my Orthos Prime or Plague Kripath for 99% of my fun.

I use Wisp, Inaros, Loki... (Oberon for Eidolons)

Go ahead, tell me I'm playing the meta, and I think the nerfs will hurt my play style.

I don't consider AoE use to be an oppressive meta... it's just the most effective way to kill the hordes that we're tasked with killing in most missions. I don't personally use the popular weapons, because I have fun with what I have, and I still accomplish the objectives in a time that I consider reasonable for myself. I do not feel like "I'm playing wrong" by not using the "meta".

I watched the Dev stream. I rolled my eyes a lot. They came to different conclusions from myself, based on the data they had; assuming reasons for the data that I disagree with. They consider "popularity" to be a sign of something bad going on. They describe this as a bad condition for the game, when no... it's a reasonable outcome. What do you expect when most mission objectives are to kill lots of enemies real fast? Use AoE... AoE is suddenly popular, and thus is considered "a bad thing"? In what bonkers world is this reasonable?

I have not seen Wukongs using their Wuclones to AFK play the game for them. They're usually very active players zipping around in their clouds.

I enjoy being in a group of people who are having fun blowing things up, even if I'm not blowing those things up myself.

 

As far as I'm concerned, there is no problem with killing hordes of enemies easily, and people running around with Brammas isn't hurting my gameplay experience. As a melee user, you'd think I'd be highly impacted by this, and have no way to have fun... I think people are HIGHLY exaggerating the issue, because I have plenty of fun in this game. The PRE-NERF AoE range is still limited... even on these hated weapons. It's nowhere near "a whole tile" being wiped out in one shot.

I also have no problem with powerful single target weapons. They have their place in Eidolon hunts, a great number of assassination missions, etc.

 

My suggestions do not include "raising everything to the level of the current AoE META" so everything wipes out everything quickly. My suggestions remove AoE as a valid tactic, so it's not effective in the process of completing the objectives in more missions that people want to play. This way, AoE doesn't need to be nerfed, and people who don't want to encounter AoE ruining their gameplay can just choose to play missions where AoE is of no benefit.

 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I consider adding things where AoE is not the most effective tactic available preferable to nerfing AoE weapons, as a fundamental reasoning point to begin from, as opposed to the Devs' prioritizing "Automation, Dominance, or Disruption"... which I don't agree are all that important to consider when talking about nerfing things

And i already mentioned i am ok with that , it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Nerfs and buffs are part of any live service game, its what keeps players interested in new things and Devs actually getting something to sell.

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

In the past, when they nerfed things like the Catchmoon, it's been anything but subtle. It's been more like using  a sledgehammer to kill a fly. I don't even actively use my Catchmoon anymore... it's just plastered to my hip as a decoration now. (I don't have a Kuva Nukor or Tenet Cycron to replace it. and those are the only 2 other weapons in the game worth putting in that slot, IMO) So, when I see nerfs coming, all I see is things being made functionally obsolete, just with kinder packaging and sweeter wording.

Ah so you are the type to jump on bandwagons , for a guy that "only does support" you use only the most OP weapon or not at all in your slot huh. you have no clue what you are talking about. the catchmoon is fine , only needed to add some projectile speed mods for it to work , but far be it for someone to notice that , better to just complain.

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Places where I enjoy providing support, rather than killing:

* Defense: I'll bring Wisp along, and put down her motes. Whether I kill anything or not, I know I've contributed to everything in the mission.
* Rescue: Doesn't matter what frame I'm on... when I'm leading the rescue target to extraction, as long as they live, we're good. I don't bother killing stuff on my way out... everyone else can go crazy with their AoE. If I happen to bring Wisp, obviously, the motes will help slightly. If I have the Vazarin school, I can make the rescue NPC invincible or heal them fast, regardless of my frame or weapons.
* Hijack... I just go Inaros, so I can sit on the moving whatever like a living battery. Everyone else can go crazy killing stuff, I know I've done my part.
* All missions: I seek out Ayatan Statues whenever I'm rushing through missions, (on fast missions I won't go out of my way), since I've memorized many locations where they can appear. People always like to get a free statue along the way.

I can list more eventually, if need be.

The missions I play primarily:
Capture to crack relics.
Spy to level my gear.
Anything that is required for syndicate medallion hunts.
Railjack with a friend, farming the last pieces of Carmine Penta and the Ambassador.
 

Some of us dont enjoy sitting idle and leeching or playing chase the leader , you do you though.

And i think i understand now why you are so opposed to it.

You just enjoy the results , like a job , you dont actually care for the experience.

1 hour ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I realized I sort of didn't focus on this part of it.

Automation: I can "sort of" understand where they're coming from here, but I've never personally encountered anyone who has been AFK, just using a Wuclone to play for them... just hasn't ever happened.

Dominance: I NEVER support this as a reason to nerf something. There are reasons (especially in Warframe) for something to see high usage, and it's usually not because of its stats. In my experience, it's usually due to convenience and how fun it makes the game to play that encourages a high adoption rate, and then the game systems inherent to Warframe cement its use, due to investment cost (sinking reactors/catalysts and forma into it, with all the time required to re-level it each time), and limited inventory slots for all the gear, so people who don't spend plat on slots will limit their inventory only to the most effective things in their arsenal, instead of experimenting and playing around with a wider variety of things - (that was me for a year, so don't go saying people are all plat-rich and have plenty of slots.)

Disruption: In this case, as I've presented my case, I'd rather see more variety in mission objectives, so AoE isn't disrupting everyone's fun, because all missions wouldn't be best served by people killing all the hordes real fast with their AoE. And as I've noted above, I don't find my gameplay "disrupted" by people completing the mission objectives. Especially early on in my gaming, when I opened my squads up to the public, instead of running solo, I welcomed any and all help from people who had much stronger weaponry and warframes than myself. There was absolutely no "disruption" caused by people with all that great stuff.

Did you actually see the stream mate? i feel like you are speaking purely on hearsay and are just parroting someone else's words. There is a difference between nerfing things to the ground and nerfing it such that it is at a fairer level ,

Do also realise that DE is still abusiness , if players are not actually buying stuff there is less reasons for them to actually make things,

i think the subtlety is lost on you and any further discussions would not be fruitful or beneficial for either of us ,

based on your predisposition and playstyle that you have highlighted so far.

I cant say if it a right or wrong method , as DE has allowed it so far , but we will see if this is sustainable.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb MekaDovah:

And we'll be right back here listening to people whine about the Ignis Wraith because "wah, takes no skill, doesn't get you killed often enough, wah."

when were crybabies happy?
it's not about balance or whatever. it's about crying......... and the reasons are constantly being thought up.

I read posts from some clows like anecdotes. you can't take it seriously.

[0_The_F00l]

30 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

when were crybabies happy?

Truer words were rarely said by you,

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah so you are the type to jump on bandwagons

No... I chose the Catchmoon, because it had a big bullet like the Arca Plasmor, since I'm mostly a melee guy, and hate using guns. I don't particularly like the gameplay of "aiming a gun"... so I don't generally use guns. When I DO have to use a gun, I choose those that are most comfortable for me to use. MOST secondary weapons are useless... ONLY the Catchmoon, and those 2 new lich weapons are even REMOTELY worth using, if I were to use a gun at all in the secondary slot... so, I just stick with the heavily nerfed Catchmoon, since I've already stuck forma into it, and I let it rest at that. I have no use for the thing in most situations. (usually, when carrying a mobile defense thingy)

Take a look at the setup I use in the reply I made a little down the page. No bandwagon there, just personal preference in what is comfortable to me, fun for me. I really don't care what others are doing.

 

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And i think i understand now why you are so opposed to it.

You just enjoy the results , like a job , you dont actually care for the experience.

 

Quite the opposite.

I enjoy playing warframe as a super fast ninja in space, effortlessly (at least appearing so) slicing and dicing all the enemies in my way.

I play the game when I don't have a "reason"...  just for the fun of it. (1,590+ logins Legendary 1... make of that what you will.)

You asked for specific examples of me playing support. Support is when I'm not the primary killer in a mission. Those things I listed are things I do, when I am supporting other players who are more aggressive, or whatever.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

(I don't have a Kuva Nukor or Tenet Cycron to replace it. and those are the only 2 other weapons in the game worth putting in that slot, IMO)

 

Have you tried out the Laetum and the Epitaph? Just in case you haven't, you might find them respectable alternatives. Laetum is single shot pistol at first, but if you get head shots, and Evolve it, it turns into a pocket Acceltra, well, pocket almost implies weaker, I'd say it scales into harder difficulties much much better, due to its build options. Its very potent, and I wouldn't be surprised if it overtakes Kuva Nukor as the most popular secondary, eventually. 

Epitaph, is interesting. I saw you mentioned the Cedo? In my opinion the two are similar, in the sense the Alt Fire is a great Primer that hits multiple enemies with high status, and then the main primary fire is more traditional and has high crit stats and good for finishing off tanky enemies. 

My apologies if you already know such weapons and just don't like them or already mentioned that somewhere in your posts and I just overlooked that. 

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

No... I chose the Catchmoon, because it had a big bullet like the Arca Plasmor, since I'm mostly a melee guy, and hate using guns. I don't particularly like the gameplay of "aiming a gun"... so I don't generally use guns. When I DO have to use a gun, I choose those that are most comfortable for me to use. MOST secondary weapons are useless... ONLY the Catchmoon, and those 2 new lich weapons are even REMOTELY worth using, if I were to use a gun at all in the secondary slot... so, I just stick with the heavily nerfed Catchmoon, since I've already stuck forma into it, and I let it rest at that. I have no use for the thing in most situations. (usually, when carrying a mobile defense thingy)

Take a look at the setup I use in the reply I made a little down the page. No bandwagon there, just personal preference in what is comfortable to me, fun for me. I really don't care what others are doing

What? Cacthmoons size was never changed , only its fall off distance (still decent , abit better if you use some projectile speed), thats why i feel you are just parroting without any actual basis.

Also not sure what i can suggest to a guy that doesnt even like guns, and is complaining about changes to guns on some other persons behalf that may not even be impacted, maybe the cyanex that has homing bullets?

the rest of your justification Feels half assed and without valid basis from my PoV.

12 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Quite the opposite.

I enjoy playing warframe as a super fast ninja in space, effortlessly (at least appearing so) slicing and dicing all the enemies in my way.

I play the game when I don't have a "reason"...  just for the fun of it. (1,590+ logins Lengendary 1... make of that what you will.)

You asked for specific examples of me playing support. Support is when I'm not the primary killer in a mission. Those things I listed are things I do, when I am supporting other players who are more aggressive, or whatever.

 

Fair enough , you play a looter shooter without using guns and let others shoot wherever necessary.

Thats fine i am not one to judge personal preferences thats for support to decide if it ever comes up in a report,

i still dont get your opposition to the changes that are coming (oh and they are coming no matter what anyone else cries about).

But you do you mate - just note that i personally don't agree with your opinion,

[Yamazuki]

7 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

The 'risk' was easily bypassed previously. It was just specific... unlike the current 'risk' that only requires either one or three mods on any Warframe.

Even the op's suggestion of limiting it to 400 true damage, that may one shot some Warframes, but to others that is easily ignored and will never down them. If it doesn't bypass shields, then well... what would even be the point?

[Numerikuu]

The only time I was ever thankful for self-damage being in the game was when there'd be That One Douchebag, You Know The One™. In that situation one could pull out their radiation weapon, rad proc themselves, then proceed to murder the douchebag in question 😚

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

7 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

I’m a solo player so I have no skin in the game either way. But I know others have expressed, the random enemy placement or that other players like to randomly get in the way especially down all our dated and narrow tilsets can really have a endurance on game enjoyment. 

[bad4youLT]

Imagine if you had a gun that used your own revives for its ammo , would use that gun ?

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

Did some of the destiny idiots start working at Warframe???  I quit destiny due to all the nerfing and tedious crap.  Nerfing AOE, Wukong, and limit ammo just means things take longer to complete.

 

Guess I'm done playing Warframe 

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

Bungie the second?

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

nononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononono.

 

But seriously, no.  It like the proposed potential nerf to primed sure footed ultimately makes things feel worse and will only shift chad AoE enjoyers to specific frames to side step the change.  The current nerfs they have proposed to AoE that will go live are perfectly reasonable and don't immediately kill any AoE weapons.

[sunderthefirmament]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

Did some of the destiny idiots start working at Warframe???  I quit destiny due to all the nerfing and tedious crap.  Nerfing AOE, Wukong, and limit ammo just means things take longer to complete.

 

Guess I'm done playing Warframe 

Do what you want, but these nerfs seem pretty cautious and incremental by most industry standards that I've seen.  And honestly, since I started playing 2018, I haven't really noticed a lot of nerfs.  Yeah, Catchmoon got nerfed.  It's still viable, and can now be used for slash procs with those new impact mods.  And yeah, Limbo is steadily becoming less and less relevant.  And yeah, Gyre got "nerfed" almost as soon as she was released.  But beyond those, nothing really stands out.

 

I don't think we need to be sensationalist about these changes, at least not yet.