Ignis Wraith Bp research, a 2 year endeavour

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, --TL--Sui said:

Mediocre take before, horrible take now, given the now clear intentions backed up by other people and evidence

Selling it for 5x the usual asking price? That's still a ripoff in my book, no matter how legit it can get or "free market this free market that" meta response.

[nslay]

But people liked buying Ignis Wraith BP for 50 plat. If you read the threads, he got all sorts of gratitude and everything. It was amazing!

He sold the experience of buying Ignis Wraith BP for 50 plat when it could be free. Some people apparently like that experience... and who am I to judge?

[haha]

haha

[--TL--Sui]

4 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Selling it for 5x the usual asking price? That's still a ripoff in my book, no matter how legit it can get or "free market this free market that" meta response.

Did you even read the part where he explained how much he gave people back? Spoiler - at least twice of what they spent on his blueprints, mostly but not exclusively in Forma. Imagine being upset about someone selling built Forma for 5p each, with a free Ignis Wraith Blueprint included.

[Voltage]

10 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

My mind is still boggled about why people thought it was a scam, honestly. 

How can you be surprised? I'm sure you're very well aware of how the internet rewards majorities for creating a "hive-mind" opinion about a topic that is adopted as "the morally correct side" of a discussion. It's like going into a Riven Mods topic. Not always, but the hazmat suit helps there too.

[DrivaMain]

4 minutes ago, --TL--Sui said:

Did you even read the part where he explained how much he gave people back? Spoiler - at least twice of what they spent on his blueprints, mostly but not exclusively in Forma. Imagine being upset about someone selling built Forma for 5p each.

 

Stop trying to justify what is a clearly a scummy behaviour. 

It's like someone who opresses people for money and then gave that money away for charity. The way he got the plat is worth condemning for.

Now, I will not continue this conversation further because I am not changing my views on this person based on out-in-the-open behaviour. Have a good day.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, --TL--Sui said:

Did you even read the part where he explained how much he gave people back? Spoiler - at least twice of what they spent on his blueprints, mostly but not exclusively in Forma. Imagine being upset about someone selling built Forma for 5p each, with a free Ignis Wraith Blueprint included.

I gave away Saryn Primes, Chroma Primes, Mag Primes, Braton/Lato Vandal, scores of Shell Shocks and High Voltages... do you believe me? It's all true! I swear! Take my word for it! I also don't buy or sell anything for plat.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Thats a lot to take in. A lot of this comes off a bit too convoluted, then again, I do acknowledge that anytime you have a large group of people who share common interests, and money, time is involved, things can get complex, especially when you add in factors like exclusivity, trading, and other systems. Also, I try my best to try and avoid drama and certain issues, but understandably, for many, its harder to avoid, if they are more tied to the game, in clans, have been around longer, trade. or have some sort of grievance or issue  etc

There may be good reasons for why it wasn't the case, I am not exactly sure why more transparency couldn't have been practiced. Like yes, to some extent, some situations may require subterfuge and manipulation, and I acknowledge I am not as invested in this situation or interacting with DE throughout the years so it may have been necessary... Eh, just seems a bit off to me. Also, like we recently got a change in Warframe leadership. Could this change have happened that way?

Was this plan necessary? Would this change have happened if we didn't have new leadership? Also, if I were to make such a plan, wouldn't I actually be grateful and appreciative of all the anger, and overzealous threats and outrage? Not to condone them, but for playing the role and causing more drama and drawing more attention to the issue? So like, here is the reveal, "for all those that dislike, despise, sent me threats etc, here are my receipts, I agree in principle with you, I secretly gave all those I traded with more value, and requested they not reveal my generosity or plan, it was all a grand manipulation on my part to get better practices around exclusive items, if my name Lelouch vi Britannia!" or I don't know... Otherwise it means a lot of drama and negativity were created, that sounds like it still lingers on multiple parties fronts. Basically, if the intent was to deceive and manipulate and play the Heel, to achieve a purpose, there has to be some sort of understanding, that things can get messy, especially as far as peoples behaviour and pressing buttons, especially complicated when people with some good intentions, can get emotional enough, to start behaving badly despite good intentions... but if they are being manipulated to try and ring out a certain amount of negativity/animosity, as far as reactions and feedback... 

To put it another way, I know more about human behaviour than the history behind DE, the original method of acquiring Ignis Wraith and then changes and all the complexity and nuance that occurred after across multiple sites, with multiple people. 

Maybe I need to have known more about what was going on, to really get it but yeah. Good to know you were compensating players and giving them value with their trades. 

 

[Saad]

Real or not, this whole conundrum was quite stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if people still hate you for it. If you're going to act as someone who constantly manipulates new players into buying some common item for a premium currency, you'll be hated in the community regardless of whatever intentions you have. If you want a change, there are better ways to go at it.

This post just feels like you pulling mental gymnastics and damage controlling while trying to paint everyone as evil who called out your BS and rightfully so.

[Letter13]

6 minutes ago, Voltage said:

How can you be surprised? I'm sure you're very well aware of how the internet rewards majorities for creating a "hive-mind" opinion about a topic that is adopted as "the morally correct side" of a discussion. It's like going into a Riven Mods topic. Not always, but the hazmat suit helps there too.

I'm not surprised, just... boggled. Maybe I overestimate people or expect more rational behavior, or at least for people to read big brightly colored text warning them before posting... I don't know.

Reminds me of the bench scene in Men in Black with Tommy Lee Jones talking about how a person is smart and all that. 

[RichardKam]

44分钟前 , RafMatador22 说:

I'm mr 23, and I haven't built this Ignis Wraith yet, is it that good to deserve such a long text? lol

No. Real tenno use Lega Prism.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, Saad said:

Real or not, this whole conundrum was quite stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if people still hate you for it. If you're going to act as someone who constantly manipulates new players into buying some common item for a premium currency, you'll be hated in the community regardless of whatever intentions you have. If you want a change, there are better ways to go at it.

I've been a person advocating changes in this game for 7 years now. What Kireek did is pretty much the only way to see a change about something very specific that doesn't affect the game at large in a reasonable time. You have people tracking Galvanized Mods not working for years now, a Codex bug Google spreadsheet that is also years old now, archived bug reports that are just decaying here on the Forums/Reddit/etc., and more. Reasonable timelines for these kinds of changes only come from exceptional attention to the issue.

It was either this or the discovery of an abusive Clan XP exploit or something to see this sort of thing addressed. It's like, what kind of situation usually drives change? Usually it's something negative with lots of attention towards it. I hope you can see how that works out.

5 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Reminds me of the bench scene in Men in Black with Tommy Lee Jones talking about how a person is smart and all that. 

That's pretty spot on.

[--TL--Sui]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

I gave away Saryn Primes, Chroma Primes, Mag Primes, Braton/Lato Vandal, scores of Shell Shocks and High Voltages... do you believe me? It's all true! I swear! Take my word for it! I also don't buy or sell anything for plat.

I'm not taking anyone's word for anything here, but i can just look at my own inbox ingame, from back when i bought some blueprints because i thought it would be funny.

Now your turn... ah wait, right, just trying to make some point by ridiculing something without even bothering to look into it. This is the internet after all, and no one can ever have any deeper motive behind anything other than to just be harmful. Good is good and bad is bad, and which of those something is depends on the opinion of Reddit and <insert big warframe youtuber>.

[L3512]

57 minutes ago, B.P.Emma said:

however, we didnt see that, did we? you call people haters, yet all you did was present yourself as someone to be hated.

And look at how people were so eager to hate when they could have just minded their own business.

Self righteous is a key factor in most appalling human behaviour.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Eh, I have meet a decent amount of naive people in Warframe. Naive in the sense, they might not necessarily have a good understanding of the value of Plat or certain items, because of the games style of progression, exclusivity, potential to progress through the game, other players attitudes towards such items, equivalent items etc 

Its why, when super new players make threads, most players try to recommend about how they should spend their initial free 50p/starting Plat, and how slots can be valuable, as opposed to say buying the Credits bundle. Slots don't really seem that exciting, or glamorous, but it really opens up the choices you have near the beginning, which then helps you progress and get mastery, and build up some momentum. 

Informed consent is different from consent. Rules can allow a player to sell Intensify for 500 Plat, but it can be dubious in other ways. You could even ask the purchasing player "hey, you know you can grind this Mod in game right?" then they could say yes... So, informed consent right? Possibly, but for all we know, in their mind, Intensify is a late game Mod, that takes months to earn, or may be behind some massive grind. If you ask them... "Most players would just give you this Mod for free, I have over 100, they drop like candy, you'll probably get one in 2 or 3 hours of playing, if this trade for 500p occurs you may be setting a record. Unless you are literally some ultra wealth Saudi Prince who can literally throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at the game, this trade just feels wrong.." Well, thats a whole other level of informed consent and transparency. 

Hard to incorporate such transparency into the games rules though, as how trades are currently done. So you sort of have to rely on the goodwill and morality/ethics of the players, especially those that understand/know more. Making new players feel informed, and that they are getting good value, is good for players and the game in general. Having new players feel cheated or ripped off, can discourage from future trades, which sucks, given how important it can be to the overall WF experience.

[Marvelous_A]

8 minutes ago, --TL--Sui said:

I'm not taking anyone's word for anything here, but i can just look at my own inbox ingame, from back when i bought some blueprints because i thought it would be funny.

Now your turn... ah wait, right, just trying to make some point by ridiculing something without even bothering to look into it. This is the internet after all, and no one can ever have any deeper motive behind anything other than to just be harmful. Good is good and bad is bad, and which of those something is depends on the opinion of Reddit and <insert big warframe youtuber>.

Oh I get it. He's like Robin Hood of some sort. Just instead of robbing the rich, he robs the poor.  Robin Hood is a hero with good intention, but he's also a criminal before all that.

[KIREEK]

10 minutes ago, Saad said:

Real or not, this whole conundrum was quite stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if people still hate you for it. If you're going to act as someone who constantly manipulates new players into buying some common item for a premium currency, you'll be hated in the community regardless of whatever intentions you have. If you want a change, there are better ways to go at it.

 

This post just feels like you pulling mental gymnastics and damage controlling while trying to paint everyone as evil who called out your BS and rightfully so.

my appologies if i didn't make it easier to read, but it's 2 years, featured dojo, me bumping the subject with support a few times and many, many topics, the primetime chat is an example of what may happen in a few minutes, let alone 2 years, it's something that you will only find if you seek it.

I tried my best to guide users in the right direction and away from users misleading them, for them "ignis wraith sellers are bad" is a simple thing to get behind

[--TL--Sui]

Just now, Marvelous_A said:

Oh I get it. He's like Robin Hood of some sort. Just instead of robbing the rich, he robs the poor.

I'm not sure how you got that, because neither my comment nor the one i quoted is in any way related to Robin Hood or robbery, nor does it have any mention of anyone's wealth. It was kinda funny, i'll give you that, might even steal that joke myself, but it really isn't related to anything here.

[Kaiga]

47 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

My mind is still boggled about why people thought it was a scam, honestly. 

Yeah to me the concept of selling the blueprints felt like an ethical gray area--I wouldn't have done it personally--but it was a tradeable item and a free market. No rules were being violated nor were there any indications of you acting in bad faith.

 

This thread was a good read, but mostly I'm pumped about not having to moderate your thread anymore... 😂

It was never rulebreaking, nobody ever said it was, and if they did they're incorrect.

What it was, was a form of inherently dishonest exchange purported by greasy snakes that are well aware of the information asymmetry between them and the buyers. In other games we call this "sharking", and it's a bannable offense in for example CSGO/TF2 trading, when committed on such a large scale and for so long. It is bad faith in and of itself to even run something like this, due to the ridiculous value disparity between the asking price and the ease of obtaining, which seems to have been confirmed by the statement in today's upadate. DE has literally described it for what it is.

It is true that you can sell or buy an item for whatever you want, but let me ask you this- Does it serve the community for people to throw platinum away? Is it good for warframe's players to squander premium resources, if they don't have to? Because this is objectively that, a waste of premium resources, often bought with irl funds. It is reasonable to believe that it is also in the interest of the community to prevent things like that from happening. Hence the calls to shut down the circus that were made.

If you asked a player what they'd rather do, spend 50 plat for an item they can get through a vastly easier method or just attempt the vastly easier method, it is a very obvious answer that doesn't serve the interests of the players to pretend otherwise.


You should know this. Freedom of enterprise loses it's value when it harms the community.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

4 minutes ago, L3512 said:

And look at how people were so eager to hate when they could have just minded their own business.

Self righteous is a key factor in most appalling human behaviour.

 

This has some merit, but also depends on the context. 

You know the Nigerian Prince scam emails? Well actually... they were scamming some people, but what you didn't know, is that they actually sent people Mansions and Yachts to people, and there really was a Prince! So all those people who were upset at elderly people being scammed, should have minded their own damn business... 

Obviously I am not saying you condone that, but we shouldn't vilify peoples empathy, or feeling injustice, especially if manipulation is purposefully being sewn. You can even have situations, where multiple parties are evoking self righteous behaviour. It can be complex and tricky to try and actually separate and untangle all the motivations and behaviour in certain scenarios. 

[Luxpluff]

4 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

It was never a scam or rulebreaking, nobody ever said it was, and if they did they're incorrect.

What it was, was a form of dishonest exchange purported by greasy snakes that are well aware of the information asymmetry between them and the buyers. In other games we call this "sharking", wildly bad faith acting, and it's a bannable offense in for example CSGO/TF2 trading, when purported on such a large scale and for so long.

That's the definition of a scam.

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

It was never a scam or rulebreaking, nobody ever said it was, and if they did they're incorrect.

What it was, was a form of dishonest exchange purported by greasy snakes that are well aware of the information asymmetry between them and the buyers. In other games we call this "sharking", wildly bad faith acting, and it's a bannable offense in for example CSGO/TF2 trading, when purported on such a large scale and for so long.

It is true that you can sell or buy an item for whatever you want, but let me ask you this- Does it serve the community for people to throw platinum away? Is it good for warframe's players to squander premium resources, if they don't have to? Because this is objectively that, a waste of premium resources, often bought with irl funds.

If you asked a player what they'd rather do, spend 50 plat for an item they can get through a vastly easier method or just attempt the vastly easier method, it is a very obvious answer that doesn't serve the interests of the players to pretend otherwise.


You should know this. Freedom of enterprise loses it's value when it harms the community.

The largest reason this discussion goes in this direction is because it's a discussion of idealism vs realism. Letter13 is speaking in terms of reality. Whether you like it or not, the world doesn't work in an ideal setting where the individual/community is valued more than enterprise and/or results. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. If DE wanted to ban this behavior, they would have changed the way trading works long before Riven Mods or Void Fissures. Fact of the matter is that DE benefits from this behavior and it keeps the economy stimulated. That's just the way it is.

Ignis Wraith was not the first item to be traded like this nor will it be the last.

[Marvelous_A]

3 minutes ago, --TL--Sui said:

I'm not sure how you got that, because neither my comment nor the one i quoted is in any way related to Robin Hood or robbery, nor does it have any mention of anyone's wealth. It was kinda funny, i'll give you that, might even steal that joke myself, but it really isn't related to anything here.

Good intention doesn't justify bad acts. Like V in V for Vendetta imprisoned Evey to prove a point to her. It's good intention and impressive enough for a movie. It's still a crimial offense in real life. You're just playing the anti-hero feel good game here.

[nslay]

Just now, Luxpluff said:

That's the definition of a scam.

No, the players wanted to have this experience where they pay 50 plat for something they know is free. You should read the gratitude posts for the trades. I kid you not! OP brought genuine thrill and values to players who enjoy this experience.

[Kaiga]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

The largest reason this discussion goes in this direction is because it's a discussion of idealism vs realism. Letter13 is speaking in terms of reality. Whether you like it or not, the world doesn't work in an ideal setting where the individual/community is valued more than enterprise and/or results. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. If DE wanted to ban this behavior, they would have changed the way trading works long before Riven Mods or Void Fissures. Fact of the matter is that DE benefits from this behavior and it keeps the economy stimulated. That's just the way it is.

Ignis Wraith was not the first item to be traded like this nor will it be the last.

that's a rather grim view of how the moderators handled it, but i suppose it is what actually happened