I think its sad how many companions exist vs how many are actually useful.

[Numerikuu]

23 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

literally only relevant when doing liches. lol.

Spoiler

Not saying this to mock you btw, you should genuinely give it a shot. It's free 100% power strength, plus utility/cc etc 😉

 

[MqToasty]

1 hour ago, Mediloric said:

With respect: Can you show a video of this? I'm not wishing to call you a liar or such, but I am having a hard time believing that it's surviving Steel Path, on its own. 

It's understandable, and I respect your skepticism.  I suck at recording videos, so I hope these screenshots will suffice?  These were taken right before I extracted at the end of a solo SP mission at Zariman/Halako Perimeter (Exterminate) just now.  As you can see, my Oxylus is still hanging there, and I had zero Deaths (so it did not revive with my revive).  I am using Wisp so it is benefiting from my motes, but...  I think we can agree that motes alone could not have singlehandedly kept it alive?

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Okay, now try a steel path Zariman node, or other area where extended operator play is mandatory.  Operator mode = -1 primed regen charge. 
 

My idiot kavat has more than half her fully forma’d and maxed out build dedicated to survivability, and yet I find myself constantly reviving her when running incursions. 

Please see above.  Although admittedly, my first attempt on Tuvul Commons (Void Cascade) did not go so well for either my Oxylus or myself.  I did finish that mission, but it was after quite a few deaths.  I will admit the new mechanisms on the Zariman nodes make it harder for companions to survive, but it's really not like they simply drop like flies here...  And now that I think about it, there really is no good reason whatsoever to bring an Oxylus to Zariman -- there's nothing for it to scan there.

How are you modding your kavat?  It's not that my kavat never drops on SP, but it's really not nearly enough that I find reviving her a nuisance.

[SneakyErvin]

Companion survivability is the main issue. It isnt really noticable on the very tanky frames that rely on HP and armor, but with weaker frames, even with builds that make them durable, the companions still go down like crazy the moment you step into endless steel path. It is kinda why I barely if ever play anything but HP/Armor frames or use anything but Panzer these days. 

The thing that bothers me most is that the tanky frames, especially now with Lavos, Grendel, Garuda and Wukong, is that there is no drawback to pick them for their tankyness. They all pack a massive punch while being extremely durable aswell. The "weaker" frames just wont be able to effectively make up for their lacking companion contributing stats, and if you try to, you will give up alot that the tanky frames wont have to. Just on Saryn that is a naturally more tanky frame, you still need something like Gloom to be on the safe side for the companion, even if Saryn herself may not have real need for the skill. To me it just makes the frame roster all over the place when it comes to companion interaction, and it isnt like there are companions better suited for "weaker" frames either, they all benefit from tanky frame stats, or not at all and make them naturally fragile companions on any frame.

DE just slaps on bad bandaid "solutions" that makes us give up even more on frames that cannot make their companions tanky enough. Sure, we can pick up a helminth to res pets, but at the same time a more tanky frame can make their companion tanky either through natural means or by picking up a skill that also benefits them directly, like Gloom for instance. It doesnt give me any urge to play the frames that cannot keep their companions up without massive sacrifice.

There are 3 solutions.

1. Make companion stats seperate from Warframe stats. Merge link mods and other stat increase mods, give them a nice boost aswell so they add up to roughly what a tanky frame could end up providing for a companion. A decent mix between link shields on Hildryn and link health+link armor on Lavos/Grendel or so. This would bring all companions more inline with eachother. Ontop of it, give all companions Vulp self res.

2. Make all companions immortal with a few slight nerfs to their utility and debuffing. Since this would also allow DE to remove all stat related mods it would lead to the potential of adding utility/debuff buffing mods in return. So we mod for what we want the pets to improve in our loadout.

3. Make companion health/armor/shields simply scale like specters. And add Vulp self res to all of them. The different survival stat mods could be merged and turned into mods that increase the scaling with x%. 

I would personally prefer #1 or #3, both would work well since we can mimic #1 with any tanky frame in endless SP and we can do the same with any specter in SP aswell. Both would end up making companions just as durable and viable on the squishiest and tankiest frames in the game.

[Numerikuu]

20 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

I am using Wisp so it is benefiting from my motes, but...  I think we can agree that motes alone could not have singlehandedly kept it alive?

Definitely helped a bunch, same goes for Baruuk's Desolate Hands. Basically if you're using a frame with abilities that provide either damage reduction, some form of CC, armor/health/shield boosting, or have a high health, shield, or armor rating etc then you have a lot more flexibility regarding Companions.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

It's understandable, and I respect your skepticism.  I suck at recording videos, so I hope these screenshots will suffice?  These were taken right before I extracted at the end of a solo SP mission at Zariman/Halako Perimeter (Exterminate) just now.  As you can see, my Oxylus is still hanging there, and I had zero Deaths (so it did not revive with my revive).  I am using Wisp so it is benefiting from my motes, but...  I think we can agree that motes alone could not have singlehandedly kept it alive?

Motes likely do quite a bit, although it is hard to tell how much they actually provide. But the regen alone is a massive bonus for sentinels that otherwise cannot heal in any real way. Add the shock mote ontop of that and you have a constant CC, then bake Wisp's passive stealth on that, which iirc also applies to companions like all other stealth in the game, which is likely up 24/7 as you traverse the map. Though exterminate is hard to tell in overall, since all of it is very controlled, it isnt like when you step into any endless mode where spawn points arent always ahead of you. Grineer are probably the biggest offenders though for sentinels, especially on maps where they can spawn the tonkor using elites, those guys will poop all over your sentinel as they hit directly or near you. And if we look at SP endless as a solo player, the companions are even further exposed since you face the mob density of a full 4 man, meaning even more stray shots will hit the sentinel and even more AoE stuff coming your way.

[Berzerkules]

5 hours ago, trst said:

I don't think their problems are nearly as bad as some think they are. Expect for how many Kubrows/Kavat breeds there are and how excessively niche their abilities are, most of those really need to be opened for all breeds.

When it comes to companion survivability they're perfectly fine outside of endurance if you actually build them for it, though shield gating meta didn't help things, and the mercy buffs made Hard Reset viable. But Sentinels do have the problem that DE stopped Priming them. Shade is ten years old in a few months and not only hasn't been Primed but has the only Prisma variant for some reason.

Look at the new content DE is putting out like Zaramin missions and conjunction survival where we are forced out of our frames into operator. Our companions are left to fend for themselves when base enemy level is something like 150-200 on SP. That's not endurance, that's base enemy level. Companions were not made to solo enemies of that level. Normal starchart quick fissures and stuff is fine but newer content really shows how poorly Companions have aged.

[MqToasty]

4 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Definitely helped a bunch, same goes for Baruuk's Desolate Hands. Basically if you're using a frame with abilities that provide either damage reduction, some form of CC, armor/health/shield boosting, or have a high health, shield, or armor rating etc then you have a lot more flexibility regarding Companions.

True, but don't most frames have access to at least some of those?

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Motes likely do quite a bit, although it is hard to tell how much they actually provide. But the regen alone is a massive bonus for sentinels that otherwise cannot heal in any real way. Add the shock mote ontop of that and you have a constant CC, then bake Wisp's passive stealth on that, which iirc also applies to companions like all other stealth in the game, which is likely up 24/7 as you traverse the map. Though exterminate is hard to tell in overall, since all of it is very controlled, it isnt like when you step into any endless mode where spawn points arent always ahead of you. Grineer are probably the biggest offenders though for sentinels, especially on maps where they can spawn the tonkor using elites, those guys will poop all over your sentinel as they hit directly or near you. And if we look at SP endless as a solo player, the companions are even further exposed since you face the mob density of a full 4 man, meaning even more stray shots will hit the sentinel and even more AoE stuff coming your way.

Well, I don't do endurance so I'll take your word for it.  Though I've heard that DE won't even attempt to balance around SP, so if true, making all pets tankier/invincible just for SP endurance is probably even less likely?

[Numerikuu]

6 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

True, but don't most frames have access to at least some of those?

Eeexactly 😉 (that's why I find the Panzer vastly overrated).

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, MqToasty said:

Well, I don't do endurance so I'll take your word for it.  Though I've heard that DE won't even attempt to balance around SP, so if true, making all pets tankier/invincible just for SP endurance is probably even less likely?

They should balance around it since SP is no longer what it was when they first said that, heck, SP has never been what they first said it would be. So those old "we wont balance around it" comments really dont apply anymore, or never have since the first release. Back when it was just normal mode with a skip option to higher levels it was one thing if they didnt wanna balance around it, but now when it is its own mode as a whole, with other modes that come with the same or higher levels they should definently balance around it.

It should at the minimum be balanced around rotation C since that is what people are expected to reach in modes that have the rotation system. Then we also have Archons that are effectively at an equal or higher level compared to SP, a place when pets also tend to go dodo on non tank frames.

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Not saying this to mock you btw, you should genuinely give it a shot. It's free 100% power strength, plus utility/cc etc 😉

 

No I get you don't worry, but I've already tried all the parazon mods. only the hacking related ones seem worth it.

[Numerikuu]

4 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

No I get you don't worry, but I've already tried all the parazon mods. only the hacking related ones seem worth it.

To each their own. They're definitely down to personal play style 🙂

[AbyssalSerpent]

46 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Definitely helped a bunch, same goes for Baruuk's Desolate Hands. Basically if you're using a frame with abilities that provide either damage reduction, some form of CC, armor/health/shield boosting, or have a high health, shield, or armor rating etc then you have a lot more flexibility regarding Companions.

There's also other defensive abilities that help such as Gara's Splinter Storm and Nezha's Warding Halo (with the Safeguard augment) but with those it's annoyingly difficult to apply to a sentinel since you need precise aiming to pull it off, which has the hitbox the size of a molecule.

[AbyssalSerpent]

(If a mod sees this: I'm sorry and please delete this. My messages keep duplicating themselves for some annoying reason.)

[gioMisterio]

5 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

first of all, doing mercy kills LMAO

you might be surprised to learn but mercy kills are extremely useful with recent buffs, [Power Drain] does wonders on almost every Warframe there is, especially with [Out Of Sight] and [Swift Mercy]. Its so exciting to see Eximus units now, considering they are walking buffs waiting to be taken. Best part of all of this? Power Drain doesn't have any kind of timer, so you can wait for the best opportunity to use it.

[Skoomaseller]

7 minutes ago, gioMisterio said:

you might be surprised to learn but mercy kills are extremely useful with recent buffs, [Power Drain] does wonders on almost every Warframe there is, especially with [Out Of Sight] and [Swift Mercy]. Its so exciting to see Eximus units now, considering they are walking buffs waiting to be taken.

the potential is there, but the execution/mercy threshold thing is really clunky imo. I just don't bother w/ it, because why mercy when vaporizing them is so much easier?

if I want to mercy someone I have to actively make sure I'm not going to kill the target outright. and the break in combat is so... jarring.

like here I am on a rampage commiting warcrimes as naturally as I breathe, but suddenly I have to stop JUST to execute this one guy AC style.

[Numerikuu]

2 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

the potential is there, but the execution/mercy threshold thing is really clunky imo. I just don't bother w/ it, because why mercy when vaporizing them is so much easier?

if I want to mercy someone I have to actively make sure I'm not going to kill the target outright. and the break in combat is so... jarring.

like here I am on a rampage commiting warcrimes as naturally as I breathe, but suddenly I have to stop JUST to execute this one guy AC style.

Definitely more harder to pull off on the normal star chart, unless you're somewhat new to the game or haven't reached Sedna/Zariman or SP levels of power (though even then).
I used to not bother in the past as well, but with the changes to proc threshold last year, plus it being added to Eximus units, it's been added to my repertoire of fun 😄

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, MqToasty said:

How are you modding your kavat?  It's not that my kavat never drops on SP, but it's really not nearly enough that I find reviving her a nuisance.

2-3 link mods. The synth chance for invincibility. Medipet Kit.  Pack Leader (not Primed, as the way damage vs. health works out there’s literally no need for it). 
 

The rest is utility.

 

I don’t run Mischief, as that reduces Charm’s chance to proc.  I also basically always use Smeeta, even when another companion might help with DPS or clear times more, and this is because I consider Charm mandatory in a game this grindy, with this many new resources added each year. 
 

Another area where I am arguably at fault is that I don’t always play super tanky frames. Ivara is my main. I like playing a glass cannon Xaku from time to time. Etc. But even on frames with higher HP and/or shields, my pets can’t keep up and often fall in combat. 

[MqToasty]

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

2-3 link mods. The synth chance for invincibility. Medipet Kit.  Pack Leader (not Primed, as the way damage vs. health works out there’s literally no need for it). 
 

The rest is utility.

 

I don’t run Mischief, as that reduces Charm’s chance to proc.  I also basically always use Smeeta, even when another companion might help with DPS or clear times more, and this is because I consider Charm mandatory in a game this grindy, with this many new resources added each year. 
 

Another area where I am arguably at fault is that I don’t always play super tanky frames. Ivara is my main. I like playing a glass cannon Xaku from time to time. Etc. But even on frames with higher HP and/or shields, my pets can’t keep up and often fall in combat. 

Looking at my Smeeta, I only use 1 Link mod: Health.  I also use regular Pack Leader and Medi-Pet Kit, but use Mischief and Tek Assault (highly recommended) as well.  Honestly, I did not know Mischief would reduce Charm's efficacy.  Do you have a link describing how this interaction works?

I don't usually run invisible frames so I'm not sure how that works either -- when you Prowl, does your pet go invisible with you, or does she stay out in the open becoming the only target for the murderous mob?

[ShogunGunshow]

Companions are tanky like any warframe can be tanky with enough mods/arcanes/shards. The issue is the opportunity cost inherent in doing so. Players will usually gravitate towards ease of use and thoughtless survivability before everything else, so yeah, when there are companions that just don't have to worry about survival at all, and can load up on utility while providing free procs of the most popular combined element in the game, it's going to the top.

Respect to the people that still represent sentinels in Steel Path survival and make it work. But that's way too much caring for me for such little return.

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, MqToasty said:

Looking at my Smeeta, I only use 1 Link mod: Health.  I also use regular Pack Leader and Medi-Pet Kit, but use Mischief and Tek Assault (highly recommended) as well.  Honestly, I did not know Mischief would reduce Charm's efficacy.  Do you have a link describing how this interaction works?

I don't usually run invisible frames so I'm not sure how that works either -- when you Prowl, does your pet go invisible with you, or does she stay out in the open becoming the only target for the murderous mob?

I don’t have a dev source or anything, just a lot of posts and wiki comments about it. You can find plenty by googling “mischief reduce charm smeeta” or something similar.  I haven’t done any of my own testing on it. I just don’t use Mischief based on what I’ve read. 
 

Invisibility effects on a frame extend to the pet as well. So when my cat is in trouble, I pop 3 as Ivara. That said, my cat is most frequently in trouble when it is six rooms behind me while I bullet jump towards the next objective. I’m not one of those Ivara players that is in perma-stealth. There are times to have it active, and times to move. Movement makes pets more vulnerable, as they tend to lag behind as the only target for enemies. 
 

When I activate my 3 to save my cat, it’s often too late and falls anyway. Then I’m double delayed- slow for the invisibility and slow to revive my stupid cat. The teleport-to-master feature helps, but it’s not exactly 100% reliable. 

[trst]

6 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Look at the new content DE is putting out like Zaramin missions and conjunction survival where we are forced out of our frames into operator. Our companions are left to fend for themselves when base enemy level is something like 150-200 on SP. That's not endurance, that's base enemy level. Companions were not made to solo enemies of that level. Normal starchart quick fissures and stuff is fine but newer content really shows how poorly Companions have aged.

Unless you're using a trash Amp or you're fighting an Angel you're only looking at a few seconds where your Companion is the only thing for enemies to target. And minus during Angels most companions should be just fine dealing with that outside of endurance. And even during Angles if you're not just done with the mission within a minute or two anyways you still have Hard Reset or sacking one of our six always unused Revives to bring any Companion back.

But even then that's not an issue with Companion survivability but with them remaining functional/targetable while you're using your Operator. The same thing would apply to our frames if they were targetable, even with Umbra if he didn't become invulnerable at low hp and died instead.

Also saying they've aged because they might encounter issues during a single specific encounter on this one tileset or while in the single highest base level mission in the game is a bit of a stretch.

[Mediloric]

7 hours ago, MqToasty said:

It's understandable, and I respect your skepticism.  I suck at recording videos, so I hope these screenshots will suffice?  These were taken right before I extracted at the end of a solo SP mission at Zariman/Halako Perimeter (Exterminate) just now.  As you can see, my Oxylus is still hanging there, and I had zero Deaths (so it did not revive with my revive).  I am using Wisp so it is benefiting from my motes, but...  I think we can agree that motes alone could not have singlehandedly kept it alive?

Thank you! These screenshots show it perfectly and I thank you for sharing, I love your wisp colors by the way! 

Depending on your power strength, I'd say any sentinel absolutely could stay alive for a whole mission. Maybe not a long survival but the sort of standard fair of missions I'd say it'd be fine. 

Motes really do beef up a surprising amount of allies and yourself! Even a little passive health regen can make a surprising difference! 

 

[Skoomaseller]

11 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Definitely more harder to pull off on the normal star chart, unless you're somewhat new to the game or haven't reached Sedna/Zariman or SP levels of power (though even then).
I used to not bother in the past as well, but with the changes to proc threshold last year, plus it being added to Eximus units, it's been added to my repertoire of fun 😄

it's not just star chart dude. it's everywhere. sp, sortie, arbitration, circulus etc. 

edit: bringing the point home, that's why I feel Hard Reset isn't a good mod. bc the mercy system SUCKS. and even if it didn't suck, even if mercies weren't so clunky or weren't some strange balancing act between not killing and killing enemies, pets in high level content would just falter and die immediately rendering the bandaid useless.

[Oreades]

I can't imagine getting three mercy kills in 40 seconds anywhere that a sentinel isn't going to get double tapped instantly, thanks to shield gating absorbing the first tap. Over the last week, I can probably count the number of times I've seen the mercy kill prompt and had the enemy remain alive long enough to actually engage it on one hand. 

Maybe if that mod was get one mercy kill, or at the very very least dropped the 40 seconds qualifier. 

[Havokmancer]

10 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

2-3 link mods. The synth chance for invincibility. Medipet Kit.  Pack Leader (not Primed, as the way damage vs. health works out there’s literally no need for it). 

Another area where I am arguably at fault is that I don’t always play super tanky frames. Ivara is my main. I like playing a glass cannon Xaku from time to time. Etc. But even on frames with higher HP and/or shields, my pets can’t keep up and often fall in combat. 

Yeah, this is another aspect I hope they'd look into. The link mods are great if the 'frame you're using them in tandem with are tanky but with squishier 'frames, it's as if you're giving your pets a death sentence. This is probably just my unpopular opinion, but a companion's survivability shouldn't be almost exclusively dependent on our currently equipped Warframes. Maybe if pets weren't modable to begin with, then that would sort of be fine. But they have access to their own mods just as our frames and weapons do, so they should be able to be strong and tanky on their own.