(Survey) Are you for (+) or against (-) an item for changing a Riven Attribute?

[PollexMessier]

The thing I find so infuriating about the riven system isn't just the extreme grind and rng.
It's that you can go through all the effort to get a good riven for the weapon you want and then a few months later DE can nerf the riven disposition of that weapon down so low that a normal mod outperforms your riven you worked so hard/paid so much for. Or the weapon itself will be nerfed into being unuseable. or a similar weapon will come out that functions nearly identically to the one you got the riven for, except it's better without a riven than your current weapon is with a god roll. I've had this happen to me on nearly every single riven I've gotten anywhere between a half decent roll to an "as close as I'd ever hope to get to a god roll" for a weapon I liked.

Power creep, how riven disposition works, and DE's frustrating proclivity towards sweeping up things that don't deserve to be nerfed into huge blanket nerfs they make because of one or two overpowered weapons they're responsible for making, Culminates in a system that's almost guaranteed to make anything you get from it nearly worthless eventually. Which for one of if not the grindyest thing in the entire game is unacceptable. Every other grind that comes close is something that is permanently useful.

The ONLY exception to this is stat stick rivens on already worthless meles (and so will never be nerfed) to buff abilities that scale off weapon mods.... which is a function of the game that shouldn't exist at all, the game puts 0 effort into even letting you know is a thing let alone actually explaining it to you, works slightly different in nearly every instance of it so it's unreasonably complicated to understand, and only exists because DE can't be bothered to ether balance abilities to scale well with progression or just make every ability that works like this have its own mod section. Or weapons that are garbage enough to be unchanging but you just like them so much you take that mile for them anyways, even tho with an absolutely perfect roll they'll be half as effective as even a mid tier weapon.

The riven disposition system is fundamental to rivens not destroying the game more and DE's never gonna be less flippant about power creep and weapon nerfs. So the only thing that can remove this issue for rivens it making them way easier to get good rolls on. Maybe tie the ability to manipulate stats in your favor TO the riven disposition of a weapon with a % chance to keep the stats you want.

[Zimzala]

I love the Riven system because I love RNG based rewards, yes, even slot machines.

Gathering kuva to re-roll gives me something to do.

To me the only mistake involved with Rivens is the ability for players to trade them for Plat, because we then have players who cannot control themselves and ruin it for everyone else with their inability to have self discipline and do things in reasonable moderation.

The only issue with Rivens is the human obsession and greed to get bigger numbers in video games.

It's always silly to me when players blame game companies for their own lack of self control.

People were foolish enough at one point in time to lease ringtones, so people will do some crazy things with the rent money given the chance.

I hate that the rest of us have to suffer through a nanny state because some humans have no self control, but this has not changed since we have been human.

[taiiat]

16 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure, but it doesn't change that some stuffs are (near) useless

Shields is an anomaly. all of the rest of the Stats are useful.
Rivens is the same way, but even moreso. every single possible Stat has use. +Impact/Puncture are the closest to not having a use, but they do still have one.

"but i didn't want it" - it's still useful. you're just trying to make a different playstyle than what it is for.

[RobWasHere]

Rivens are the closest thing we have like hack&slash loot, so WF could implement "map" system already. Preferably tradeable currency to reroll specific mod types like Path of Exile does

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

31 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

The thing I find so infuriating about the riven system isn't just the extreme grind and rng.
It's that you can go through all the effort to get a good riven for the weapon you want and then a few months later DE can nerf the riven disposition of that weapon down so low that a normal mod outperforms your riven you worked so hard/paid so much for. Or the weapon itself will be nerfed into being unuseable. or a similar weapon will come out that functions nearly identically to the one you got the riven for, except it's better without a riven than your current weapon is with a god roll. I've had this happen to me on nearly every single riven I've gotten anywhere between a half decent roll to an "as close as I'd ever hope to get to a god roll" for a weapon I liked.

Power creep, how riven disposition works, and DE's frustrating proclivity towards sweeping up things that don't deserve to be nerfed into huge blanket nerfs they make because of one or two overpowered weapons they're responsible for making, Culminates in a system that's almost guaranteed to make anything you get from it nearly worthless eventually. Which for one of if not the grindyest thing in the entire game is unacceptable. Every other grind that comes close is something that is permanently useful.

The ONLY exception to this is stat stick rivens on already worthless meles (and so will never be nerfed) to buff abilities that scale off weapon mods.... which is a function of the game that shouldn't exist at all, the game puts 0 effort into even letting you know is a thing let alone actually explaining it to you, works slightly different in nearly every instance of it so it's unreasonably complicated to understand, and only exists because DE can't be bothered to ether balance abilities to scale well with progression or just make every ability that works like this have its own mod section. Or weapons that are garbage enough to be unchanging but you just like them so much you take that mile for them anyways, even tho with an absolutely perfect roll they'll be half as effective as even a mid tier weapon.

The riven disposition system is fundamental to rivens not destroying the game more and DE's never gonna be less flippant about power creep and weapon nerfs. So the only thing that can remove this issue for rivens it making them way easier to get good rolls on. Maybe tie the ability to manipulate stats in your favor TO the riven disposition of a weapon with a % chance to keep the stats you want.

You can thank your fellow players for disposition changes. If they didn't whine about their highly popular weapons going from 1.1 to 0.7 then it wouldn't be an issue. 

This is why all weapons start at 0.5 now. 

You should be using a weapon if you like it anyways...and since casuals follow whatever is meta or strongest, that weapon will perform just fine with a riven or not.

You shouldn't have expected a bramma or Kronen to stay at 1.1 dispo because its stats are already so good. 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

"but i didn't want it" - it's still useful. you're just trying to make a different playstyle than what it is for.

First, for you but not for another person.

Secondly, excluding weapons with unique features (e.g. Vitrica that shoots freezing stuffs on aimglide) it's more useful to just use weapon with given stats.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Why should the least amount of effort be given to achieve the best rivens in game? If you decide you want the best, then you made that decision.

You tell me. Because right now the "least amount of effort" is to buy your Rivens. Why should that achieve the best Rivens in the game? It is cheaper, faster, and easier to buy your way to the top than to actually put in the "effort" you're talking about.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You tell me. Because right now the "least amount of effort" is to buy your Rivens. Why should that achieve the best Rivens in the game? It is cheaper, faster, and easier to buy your way to the top than to actually put in the "effort" you're talking about.

But you just gave your math example, assuming everyone works minimum wage and has to shell out 500 dollars (and you left out your PC 75% off anyway).

How is working to buy plat all of a sudden easy now? According to you it literally requires actually working outside in the real world with your body, as opposed to just running fissures and selling full sets and Vox solaris arcanes.

 

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, quxier said:

So on and so forth. There are some better or worse slot machines in game but PCG content like map generation, enemy spawn, random missions are not slot machines.

Kinda missing MY point with your analysis. Your question was "so you enjoy slot machines?" and the answer for some people is "unironically yes." And as I said before, the people answering "yes" are probably NOT gambling addicts (because addiction is just... it's hell on the brain)

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

But you just gave your math example, assuming everyone works minimum wage and has to shell out 500 dollars (and you left out your PC 75% off anyway).

How is working to buy plat all of a sudden easy now? According to you it literally requires actually working outside in the real world with your body, as opposed to just running fissures and selling full sets and Vox solaris arcanes.

 

You wanna maybe look at that post again? Do you not see what that's in comparison to? Read the whole thing. Or don't, here try reading this one.

Look, let's use more realistic numbers since that's what you were going on about. That Riven isn't worth 10k, you say it yourself. You say it's only worth 5k, and I see another that's basically the same for 2.5k. So that $465 is more realistically something like $115. And you keep bringing up discounts, so sure, let's assume you only ever buy plat at a full 75% discount. Now that $465 Riven's looking more like $30, and that 64 hours of minimum wage labor is looking more like 4. Of course that's just the federal minimum wage for the US, the national average makes those 4 hours look more like 2.5. YMWV. Now maybe you can make 2,500p in less than 2.5 hours ingame "just running fissures and selling full sets and Vox solaris arcanes", but either way I think we're in agreement that getting plat is not difficult. You yourself previously described this process as taking "a few weeks or less". Then you just send a PM and buy it. Done, you've got a god roll. That's method 1, which takes a few hours or according to you a few weeks, and it gets you a god roll Karak worth 2,500p.

Now what's that in comparison to? For Rifles, it's a 6.79% drop rate you can only attempt 8 times per week, followed by a 1.3% drop rate when unveiling. I didn't include Palladino or Teshin either with my breakdown, so for giggles let's include them too. Palladino sells 2 random Rivens a week which appear to have equal chances between Kitgun, Zaw, Melee, Pistol, Primary, and Shotgun. With that you'll get an extra Rifle Riven every 3 weeks. Teshin also sells one Rifle Riven every 8 weeks. That works out to almost exactly a Rifle Riven a week if you never miss Palladino, Teshin, a Sortie, or a Hunt. Which you'll need to do for 75 weeks. That's 600 Sorties and Hunts, 1,500 Riven Slivers, and about 700 Steel Essence. That's just the first step of method 2, which takes over a year of daily effort, and all that gets you is an unrolled Karak that could be bought immediately for 40p.

So unless you can complete just the first step in doing it yourself in less than a half shift working at a McDonalds in Wyoming or in the "few weeks or less" you yourself suggest, then yes, working in the real world and buying plat, or doing what you suggest and "just running fissures", or even your suggestion to just sell the Rivens you get but don't want, are the methods with "the least amount of effort" that will "achieve the best rivens in game". That's the easy way, which is your suggestion, and paying will always be the easy way.

So again, you tell me. Why should the least amount of effort be given to achieve the best rivens in game? Why would it be such a problem if playing the game and putting in actual hard work and effort were a bit closer to what any casual player can already achieve with mom's credit card?

[quxier]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Kinda missing MY point with your analysis. Your question was "so you enjoy slot machines?" and the answer for some people is "unironically yes." And as I said before, the people answering "yes" are probably NOT gambling addicts (because addiction is just... it's hell on the brain)

Ugh....

Your point were that when stuffs has randomness it's similar to slot machines. It's not good comparison.

You only mentioned that some gamblers don't like slot machines. You have even said:

Quote

Setting aside the addiction element

so you don't want to talk about it. So I haven't mentioned addictions.

[Voltage]

On 2023-01-22 at 10:38 PM, thetdw2000 said:

Paying to win is one of the dumbest things and I will never understand it.

If you like the game so much why are you paying to skip playing it? Seems to me you see the actual gameplay as a chore and undesirable, which begs the question, why are you playing it?

Life is pay to win, and it's also a chore. People still play "life" (and Warframe) because exchanging time for enjoyment is something we all do; money is just one form of this transaction.

On 2023-01-22 at 8:10 PM, PublikDomain said:

What? Where do you even get that? I have almost 6,000 hours in this game. I'm L2. But I'm less invested? I'm very invested in this game - just not hateful enough of my own free time that I'd choose to waste it grinding on something that even you suggest isn't necessary.

You're less invested in Rivens specifically, not the game as a whole. And yes, you're at 60% of my play time, so that 40% difference in power/wealth is expected and not an issue. I suggest Rivens aren't necessary to remain competitive in the game's missions and challenges. They provide mathematical beneficiary, but that optimization is part of severe diminishing returns across the rest of your arsenal.

On 2023-01-22 at 8:10 PM, PublikDomain said:

Well, where have those complaints about accessibility led? Historically, most of the game's exclusive and exclusionary systems have followed a similar path: towards improved accessibility and a better, more equal game. Like the Arcanes you mention: all the newest Arcanes since Fortuna can be bought directly for tokens or standing. RNG protection mechanics are widely praised and nowadays exist for most content, even brand new content. That might bother you if you've attached some value to your "investment", but I'm not here to look at your "investment" and I do not care what it is. I want to play the game for me.

I have never been a fan of dumbing down the game's grind just to pander to players who don't want to engage as much in the mode but feel entitled to the finish line. Warframe lacks depth. It is 10 years of hundreds of shallow systems stretched over a very long road that ultimately leads no where. Someone with 200 hours and me with 9900 are both playing level 20 Lith Fissures for the new Prime Access. There's no depth or progression. Praising them for repeating mistakes and repeating the solutions in the form of band-aids is braindead following. Rivens are clearly meant to be something you realistically never finish, and the same goes for Archon Shards. 6 years of no change clearly gives the writing on the wall with how this is supposed to function.

I'm not even going to get into the rest of your post because we just have to agree to disagree. Your goal with Riven proposals is making a system that once again can be finished by any MR 10 who's caught up on the quests and dabbles with a few missions once a month after checking in on a Devstream. I'm more a fan of retaining atleast 1 system with no finish line, something specifically for the Warframe addicts that they can sink as much time into at their pace (not a forced pace like Archon Shards). We play the game a very different way and have very different approaches to what we care about from playing the game at this point.

The best I can do now is linking my own thread. It's a little outdated with some changes made to the game, but I still feel strongly about the suggestions there. Reducing some randomization is okay, but the core of the system should remain a randomized mod you have to refine over time through good luck or trading. That's what appeals to me with them.

 

[PollexMessier]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can thank your fellow players for disposition changes. If they didn't whine about their highly popular weapons going from 1.1 to 0.7 then it wouldn't be an issue. 

This is why all weapons start at 0.5 now. 

You should be using a weapon if you like it anyways...and since casuals follow whatever is meta or strongest, that weapon will perform just fine with a riven or not.

You shouldn't have expected a bramma or Kronen to stay at 1.1 dispo because its stats are already so good. 

I think you missed the part where I said disposition was a necessary mechanic to prevent rivens from absolutely destroying the game.
Disposition isn't an issue. it's a requirement. The issue is that because of a number of factors, including disposition, something that's so difficult and costly to obtain can be rendered entirely obsolete. You're not just gambling on getting something worth using. You're gambling on how long what you get will be worth using. Because eventually, inevitably, it wont be.

Something needs to give. Stat locking, stat transfer, re-rollable weapon, something. They're nothing but a trap in their current state.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You wanna maybe look at that post again? Do you not see what that's in comparison to? Read the whole thing. Or don't, here try reading this one.

Look, let's use more realistic numbers since that's what you were going on about. That Riven isn't worth 10k, you say it yourself. You say it's only worth 5k, and I see another that's basically the same for 2.5k. So that $465 is more realistically something like $115. And you keep bringing up discounts, so sure, let's assume you only ever buy plat at a full 75% discount. Now that $465 Riven's looking more like $30, and that 64 hours of minimum wage labor is looking more like 4. Of course that's just the federal minimum wage for the US, the national average makes those 4 hours look more like 2.5. YMWV. Now maybe you can make 2,500p in less than 2.5 hours ingame "just running fissures and selling full sets and Vox solaris arcanes", but either way I think we're in agreement that getting plat is not difficult. You yourself previously described this process as taking "a few weeks or less". Then you just send a PM and buy it. Done, you've got a god roll. That's method 1, which takes a few hours or according to you a few weeks, and it gets you a god roll Karak worth 2,500p.

Now what's that in comparison to? For Rifles, it's a 6.79% drop rate you can only attempt 8 times per week, followed by a 1.3% drop rate when unveiling. I didn't include Palladino or Teshin either with my breakdown, so for giggles let's include them too. Palladino sells 2 random Rivens a week which appear to have equal chances between Kitgun, Zaw, Melee, Pistol, Primary, and Shotgun. With that you'll get an extra Rifle Riven every 3 weeks. Teshin also sells one Rifle Riven every 8 weeks. That works out to almost exactly a Rifle Riven a week if you never miss Palladino, Teshin, a Sortie, or a Hunt. Which you'll need to do for 75 weeks. That's 600 Sorties and Hunts, 1,500 Riven Slivers, and about 700 Steel Essence. That's just the first step of method 2, which takes over a year of daily effort, and all that gets you is an unrolled Karak that could be bought immediately for 40p.

So unless you can complete just the first step in doing it yourself in less than a half shift working at a McDonalds in Wyoming or in the "few weeks or less" you yourself suggest, then yes, working in the real world and buying plat, or doing what you suggest and "just running fissures", or even your suggestion to just sell the Rivens you get but don't want, are the methods with "the least amount of effort" that will "achieve the best rivens in game". That's the easy way, which is your suggestion, and paying will always be the easy way.

So again, you tell me. Why should the least amount of effort be given to achieve the best rivens in game? Why would it be such a problem if playing the game and putting in actual hard work and effort were a bit closer to what any casual player can already achieve with mom's credit card?

Actually working to spend dollars and/or farming, as well as that year of daily effort.... is more effort than trying to get a game changing update that gives you all of that in a couple weeks. 

These suggestions for locking rivens always take the least amount of effort, hence them trying to implement the easiest possible way for them to get something rare and expensive with no effort. Seriously....people have suggested locking a riven stat with 5 riven slivers.....5....

New and/or low effort players already have access to lichs and sisters they can't even kill for the best weapons and most gear and mods take little effort to acquire. 

Some games aren't meant to be something you play for 3 months and get everything. 

You're actually rewarded for that year of daily effort, and it will show if a person decides to go after a groll.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Someone with 200 hours and me with 9900 are both playing level 20 Lith Fissures for the new Prime Access. There's no depth or progression.

And that someone with 200 hours can have the same Riven or better than you at 9900 just because they spent some money. That "MR10 who's caught up on the quest and dabbles with a few missions once a month after checking in on a Devstream" you've got a pining for can just buy their way right past all of it. Where's the "depth or progression" in something you can buy and be done with?

And for me, I've pretty much given up on the Riven system. It's just a waste of my time, and every time I touch it I'm reminded of that. Many feel the same: the highest-liked comment in this thread advocates for deleting them altogether. Where's the "depth or progression" in something people don't even want to touch?

You've said that "the power Rivens provide isn't even required anywhere in the game either". Well, where's the "depth and progression" in something that you feel is so unimpactful it can be ignored?

Despite your insistence that...

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Rivens are clearly meant to be something you realistically never finish

... you can already finish your Rivens. You and me and anyone can do that that MR10 you're out for can do that today. Like I've been saying, you just have to buy them. Whatever "depth or progression" you're attributing to Rivens is already gone. It was gone the second people could skip to the end with trade. So I see no reason to cling to some "depth or progression" that only exists for the poor.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Your goal with Riven proposals...

You don't have even the slightest clue what my goals are, nor what I think should go into building a Riven. I don't see how you possibly could since I haven't really elaborated. My goals aren't any different than yours, they just include an understanding that the "depth or progression" you talk about has always been undermined by trade to the point of non-existence. There is no "depth or progression" when you can just buy your way to the end, and there never has been. And as long as that continues to be the case there never will be. This is especially true when the "progression" involved in doing it yourself and actually exploring that "depth" is so outlandishly steep compared to just giving up and going to the market.

Regarding your thread, here's mine:

There's a whole section just about Rivens. The differences?

• You want a lower cost per roll, I want stat locking with a higher cost per roll.
• You want more stats in the available pool, and so do I.
• You want to increase the rate that Rivens are acquired and have universal Veiled Rivens, I want the same split acquisition rates we have now and deterministic unveiling.
• You want to spend Kuva and Slivers to increase stat values, I want to fuse multiple Rivens to increase stat values.
• You want to narrow the Disposition range, I want stats to only change if Disposition pushes them. It's not in that thread specifically but it's something I've posted about elsewhere.
• You want to protect trade, and I think it'll be fine without any of our protecting.
• And we seem to have a different idea of how much time and effort one item for one weapon out of hundreds should ask of the player.

You can make up whatever you think my "goals" are, but in the end we want much of the same stuff. The main difference seems to be that you want to protect your "investments" and the Riven market, and I want to be able to ignore it and just enjoy the game's progression on my own.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

and the same goes for Archon Shards.

Just to single this out, since I think it's important. You know that systems like Archon Shards and Rivens can be perpetual and be accessible, right? It doesn't have to be just one or the other; it's not mutually exclusive and there's no reason it would be.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Actually working to spend dollars and/or farming, as well as that year of daily effort.... is more effort than trying to get a game changing update that gives you all of that in a couple weeks. 

Hey now, you're the one with the claims that Rivens are already so fast and easy to acquire through trade.

22 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I could buy that riven in no time because I just sold thousands of plat worth of items in a few days. 

11 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That same riven is 5k on PS4 and that can be made in a few weeks or less.

So if it's that fast why are you so bothered by the idea of someone spending a few months to do it themselves? Especially when you're always going on about the "casuals" that want everything right away. Which is especially ironic given your idea that..

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some games aren't meant to be something you play for 3 months and get everything. 

Like, which is it? Because I'm here saying that I don't want everything right away. If I did I'd just buy it all like you apparently do. I want to play the game on my own, and all I want is for that to be a bit less absurd compared to the rate of progress you're boasting about.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

These suggestions for locking rivens always take the least amount of effort, hence them trying to implement the easiest possible way for them to get something rare and expensive with no effort. Seriously....people have suggested locking a riven stat with 5 riven slivers.....5....

And that's always going to be more effort than just buying it.

FYI, under the stat-locking with escalating costs and deterministic unveiling I'd like to see, getting a specific +3/-1 Rifle Riven would take about 12-15 hours of doing Sorties, Hunts, and SP Kuva Survival over the span of about a week, followed by another 70 hours of the same for another 20 weeks to work on the stats. That's what I want: to get my perfect Riven, whatever it is, in 82-85 hours over a half a year or so of continuous play. That's a couple hours a day to entertain my whims and keep me busy while making forward, reliable progress as I'm actually rewarded for that daily effort. And heck, maybe I work on two or three at once! 😱

Now compare that to your claims about how you can already do the same thing "in no time" or a few days/weeks through trade. That sounds kinda "low effort" to me! So who is really advocating for the "least amount of effort", here?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Hey now, you're the one with the claims that Rivens are already so fast and easy to acquire through trade.

So if it's that fast why are you so bothered by the idea of someone spending a few months to do it themselves? Especially when you're always going on about the "casuals" that want everything right away. Which is especially ironic given your idea that..

Like, which is it? Because I'm here saying that I don't want everything right away. If I did I'd just buy it all like you apparently do. I want to play the game on my own, and all I want is for that to be a bit less absurd compared to the rate of progress you're boasting about.

And that's always going to be more effort than just buying it.

FYI, under the stat-locking with escalating costs and deterministic unveiling I'd like to see, getting a specific +3/-1 Rifle Riven would take about 12-15 hours of doing Sorties, Hunts, and SP Kuva Survival over the span of about a week, followed by another 70 hours of the same for another 20 weeks to work on the stats. That's what I want: to get my perfect Riven, whatever it is, in 82-85 hours over a half a year or so of continuous play. That's a couple hours a day to entertain my whims and keep me busy while making forward, reliable progress as I'm actually rewarded for that daily effort.

Now compare that to your claims about how you can already do the same thing "in no time" or a few days/weeks through trade. That sounds kinda "low effort" to me! So who is really advocating for the "least amount of effort", here?

"That's what I want: to get my perfect Riven, whatever it is, in 82-85 hours over a half a year"

How is this not a joke lol? 

85 hours is nothing to an actual player. People will have grolls for a bunch of weapons in such a short amount of time the consequences are unfathomable.

It is what it is man. I can't debate about this all night. 

Opening the flood gates for MR 5s and everyone in between to beg in recruit chat for others to help them get grolls for 7 different weapons is something no one wants to deal with. 

If they enjoy the game, they'll stick around and work towards it like everything else. 

If DE actually caves on this I'll personally come apologize to you, but there's no reason to from numerous angles.

It's a pretty reasonable game with one or two long term grind for bored vets and is in no way mandatory.

[PublikDomain]

54 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"That's what I want: to get my perfect Riven, whatever it is, in 82-85 hours over a half a year"

How is this not a joke lol? 

85 hours is nothing to an actual player.

Hey now, you're the one going on about how you can already do in a few days what I'd like to do over a half a year. You're the one saying I should be doing the same as you and just buy my way to the top instead of playing the game. lol which is it, do you care about people actually playing the game and putting in real effort or not? This entire time you've been telling me nothing should change because I should just take the easy way out like you do.

And 85 hours over 21 weeks is a lot. If I spent every waking hour of my entire account's play time just working on Rivens using the mechanics I've talked about, you know how many Rivens I'd have been able to complete? Just 24. And my account's about as old as it gets; there aren't many people who would be able to do much more than that through regular play. So... big whoop. I can't say I see what the problem is when you compare that to your "a few days".

54 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If DE actually caves on this I'll personally come apologize to you, but there's no reason to from numerous angles.

To the contrary, there are many reasons they should, whether it's for equity, or for balance, or for bringing back players who have lost interest, or simply to give players more reasons to actually play the game instead of sitting around glued to trade chat.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Ugh....

Your point were that when stuffs has randomness it's similar to slot machines. It's not good comparison.

I don't think you understand the environment of a slot machine. Which is not your fault, it's a dirty secret that casinos try to keep on the down-low

Slot machines are more than the chance at a jackpot. Slot machines are more than just the pretty spinning wheels. No, slot machines are about luring you into a comfortable trance. You're either on vacation in a ritzy resort getting handed free drinks by the casino wait staff enjoying some rich and gaudy decor, or you're in Australia walking home putting some loose chance in the machine while you pick up your coffee and groceries (seriously, Aussies will play the same penny slot every day like clockwork, they literally consider it national pride). That's the true power of a slot machine

Warframe has a lot of the same stuff going on. Randomized mission layouts, randomized mission rewards, it's all there to keep the wheel turning a little bit longer. To keep you in their awesome space ninja power fantasy game. I don't actually WANT Baruuk Prime, but I'm grinding randomized Axi relics in randomized Lua tiles with randomized conduit routines because I like pulling the lever on the slot machine.

And people who enjoy rivens pull THAT slot machine instead

[Graavarg]

I am totally against.

Allowing you to extra-tweak rivens would only cement them as a "power source" for meta, which is the opposite of why rivens were brought into the game (to increase diversity by making less used weapons more interesting).

All we REALLY need for the riven system is the possibility to have (at least) one riven for every weapon in our arsenal. This would increase the potential for weapon diversity immensely, and it would counteract the basically dumb sorting of weapons into "fodder" or "meta".

Allowing us to have (at least) one riven per weapon would also make the current "riven rolling" make more sense. By adding/returning the missing "diversity" concept to rivens a player could get 400 rivens for 400 DIFFERENT weapons and select to play and tinker with the weapons that got good initial rolls, instead of trying to get a riven for ONE specific weapon and rolling that ONE riven 400 times to get a "good/god roll". It doesn't stop the current meta god-rolling possibility, but it adds the potential to use rivens as they were actually meant to be used and would allow us to choose if or how much we farm kuva for rolling.

For me, the current riven system is in the top three "big mistakes" made by DE: "dumbass immersion-breaking damage attenuation", "arbitrary 180 max limit of all and any rivens" and "illogical shield-gating programming code trickery".

So, a big NO!

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

the highest-liked comment in this thread advocates for deleting them altogether. Where's the "depth or progression" in something people don't even want to touch?

This is the most average normie take that you see. Let's not forget the most popular response to removing Raids for the game was praising DE for removing "buggy" content (literally the whole game lol) because most players couldn't get easy Arcane acquisition. This is the uphill battle I knew I was jumping into with this thread. It's always the same demographic of response strong-arming a discussion into "easier is better". It's not. Good Rivens should not be accessible. The entire point of Rivens is you yourself raise your standards over time and manage a limited amount of mods. Rivens are accessible as a system, but good Rivens are not. You can get more rolls to be worth slotting by getting DE to fix their horrendous multiplication creep in builds so more Riven attributes are actually a good opportunity cost, and remove Riven Disposition. Disposition has never once made any impact on gear choice, and the people into Rivens only see new weapons and new Prime Access as a dead on arrival update. Afuris Prime being the most recent example.

This is all I'm quoting because it sums up why we can't meet eye to eye on almost anything about this topic. The best part of the Forums is when you enter the topic as someone invested in a system of the game and get told that "I know what's better for the playerbase, but I don't actually care or use this system at all". Happens way more than just Rivens. I've had enough in this thread because it's a hamster wheel of the same comments.

[L3512]

18 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This is all I'm quoting because it sums up why we can't meet eye to eye on almost anything about this topic. The best part of the Forums is when you enter the topic as someone invested in a system of the game and get told that "I know what's better for the playerbase, but I don't actually care or use this system at all". Happens way more than just Rivens. I've had enough in this thread because it's a hamster wheel of the same comments.

Remember all the people here praising void sling and saying how it wasn't slower than void dash, or was good, or an improvement?

That's about the level most folk on the forum are on, much like in game actually, pretty casual.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Good Rivens should not be accessible.

And yet they already are.

Any "average normie" can already buy their way to the best Rivens in the game. You can ignore that all you want but it doesn't make it any less true. All this going on about how Rivens should be hard to get and you should have to "raise your standards over time and manage a limited amount of mods" and how all those normies just want everything with no effort >:( .... while every ounce of it is completely undermined by the existence of trade. Trade which you defend because you want to protect your "investments".

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is all I'm quoting because it sums up why we can't meet eye to eye on almost anything about this topic.

And if you took the time to read my "goals" instead of just making things up you'd see that we meet eye to eye on more than you think. A lot of the mechanics you suggest would have a similar effect to what I'd like to see.

Like your idea for universal Veiled Rivens: what you suggest in your thread would result in about 6.8 Rivens a week for someone with just 30k daily standing to feed into Simiaris. That'd reduce the time it takes to get a specific Rifle Riven from about 75 weeks down to just 11. And with Transmutation, which you want to be easier, you could recycle unwanted Rivens and immediately unveil them again without them ever being turned into a type you're not looking for. That drops the time it'd take from 11 weeks to just 7. You want to reduce the roll cost to 2k, too. Isn't all that just making it easier to roll? Yet you go on about those "average normies" who just think "easier is better". You're asking for things to be easier, too!

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

getting DE to fix their horrendous multiplication creep in builds

Gee, and I wonder where some of that "horrendous multiplication creep" is coming from? It couldn't be the 3-in-1 mods some players have that can't be included in game balance, could it?

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

It's always the same demographic of response strong-arming a discussion into "easier is better". It's not.

It's not that simple. Let me first define some terms as it seems you are using them interchangeable. It will make less confusion later.

 

You say "easier is better".

 

We need to divide it to acquisitions and.... hmm... refinement/usage.

Acquisition:

Except trading, acquisition of rivens have several layers of randomness. You go buy it for Slivers,get from Sortie or some other means. There is roll for weapon type (e.g. melee or zaw). Then you get riven challenge that determine specific weapon (e.g. Sarpa). After that you have your base riven (rank 0) with some stats.

Refinement/usage:

Then you increase stats with Endo. You can change stats with Kuva. Your frame is learning different patterns (e.g e.g. Buff yourself with Roar then use weapons).

 

 

Then we have time investment and complexity.

Time investment:

Time is how much time it takes to get or use (efficiently) something.

Rivens requires afair 40k endo so, let's say, normal mission gives you 100 endo then you need 400 mission to get 40k endo. There are mission that gives you more endo so number of missions decreases. There is sometimes randomness so exact number of runs is not the same in all cases.

You can invest time to learn something. Frames are the best example. It's very subjective. Some frames are easier to use. Some frames are similar to your previous frames so you know how to use them. So on and so forth.

Complexity:

Complexity is how many different things you have to do to achieve something (in simple terms!). To get headshot you have to hit specific body part. To get health orbs with using Voruna's 3rd you need to activate 3rd and kill enemy with melee.

 

Something may have little complexity with huge time investment (e.g. doing random missions to get 40k endo with 100 endo per mission - 5 minute per mission then it's ~33hours). Or there could be very complex but time investment may be lower (e.g. you can learn new frame without need to do N hours).

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now back to topic.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

"easier is better". It's not.

I'm in favor of "easy to get and hard to master".

So acquisition shouldn't be too long. If it's longer we should be able to decrease it via some ways.

Usage/Refinement should be longer. However the longer they want us to use something the more complex it should be. As for rivens I hate that aspect that it's braindead farming kuva without too much complexity. You can get to some amount per hour but it doesn't matter because one riven may require 50k kuva while other may require 500k.

And how we use riven should matters as well. Like I get that cold+toxin riven so I can replace my "viral" mods. That's it. Not very complex.

 

6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Ugh....

Your point were that when stuffs has randomness it's similar to slot machines. It's not good comparison.

I don't think you understand the environment of a slot machine. Which is not your fault, it's a dirty secret that casinos try to keep on the down-low

Slot machines are more than the chance at a jackpot. Slot machines are more than just the pretty spinning wheels. No, slot machines are about luring you into a comfortable trance. You're either on vacation in a ritzy resort getting handed free drinks by the casino wait staff enjoying some rich and gaudy decor, or you're in Australia walking home putting some loose chance in the machine while you pick up your coffee and groceries (seriously, Aussies will play the same penny slot every day like clockwork, they literally consider it national pride). That's the true power of a slot machine

Warframe has a lot of the same stuff going on. Randomized mission layouts, randomized mission rewards, it's all there to keep the wheel turning a little bit longer. To keep you in their awesome space ninja power fantasy game. I don't actually WANT Baruuk Prime, but I'm grinding randomized Axi relics in randomized Lua tiles with randomized conduit routines because I like pulling the lever on the slot machine.

And people who enjoy rivens pull THAT slot machine instead

So you want talk about addiction of slot machines.

Sure, randomness makes user use system (e.g. game) longer. But there is difference between generating maps that are different and slot machines. PCG of maps is not slot machine. When you play game do you want to play 1 and only map? Probably not. You want to experience different "things". When game offers me different places to explore it makes me happy. Different places have ways to tell different stories. That's makes good for immersion. Randomness in PCG just make it little bit easier for game designers to create unique maps for your fresh experience. It makes it possible for game developers to create map that may not be possible to handcraft.

Randomized mission rewards (e.g. Holokeys, frame/weapons drops) or riven's stats are slot machines. In lots of cases you don't know if you need "pull the lever" 10 times (e.g. use 35k kuva for riven) or 1000 times (3.5 M kuva). It prolongs your experience by NOT GIVING YOU REWARD. You can do very little. In most case you have to "pull the lever" again till you are satisfied. In PCG of maps you get new layout but you can adapt to it. Your mission is not failure when RoomX is next to RoomY IN MOST CASES. You just continue with your mission.

3 hours ago, L3512 said:

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is all I'm quoting because it sums up why we can't meet eye to eye on almost anything about this topic. The best part of the Forums is when you enter the topic as someone invested in a system of the game and get told that "I know what's better for the playerbase, but I don't actually care or use this system at all". Happens way more than just Rivens. I've had enough in this thread because it's a hamster wheel of the same comments.

Remember all the people here praising void sling and saying how it wasn't slower than void dash, or was good, or an improvement?

That's about the level most folk on the forum are on, much like in game actually, pretty casual.

I don't remember MANY people praising void sling. To be honest I remember, maybe not most people but more than 50% having some issues with void sling. People that "like it" still had some issues.

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And yet they already are.

Any "average normie" can already buy their way to the best Rivens in the game. You can ignore that all you want but it doesn't make it any less true. All this going on about how Rivens should be hard to get and you should have to "raise your standards over time and manage a limited amount of mods" and how all those normies just want everything with no effort >:( .... while every ounce of it is completely undermined by the existence of trade. Trade which you defend because you want to protect your "investments".

And if you took the time to read my "goals" instead of just making things up you'd see that we meet eye to eye on more than you think. A lot of the mechanics you suggest would have a similar effect to what I'd like to see.

Like your idea for universal Veiled Rivens: what you suggest in your thread would result in about 6.8 Rivens a week for someone with just 30k daily standing to feed into Simiaris. That'd reduce the time it takes to get a specific Rifle Riven from about 75 weeks down to just 11. And with Transmutation, which you want to be easier, you could recycle unwanted Rivens and immediately unveil them again without them ever being turned into a type you're not looking for. That drops the time it'd take from 11 weeks to just 7. You want to reduce the roll cost to 2k, too. Isn't all that just making it easier to roll? Yet you go on about those "average normies" who just think "easier is better". You're asking for things to be easier, too!

Gee, and I wonder where some of that "horrendous multiplication creep" is coming from? It couldn't be the 3-in-1 mods some players have that can't be included in game balance, could it?

Trading is not trivial, and I highly doubt there are a sizeable number of players credit card swiping 5k plat Rivens at a time. Most people paying the 4 and 5 digit prices do so from spending time trading. It still takes time to own enough Plat to afford these (given you're forfeiting purchasing other items such as Forma, Boosters, Skins, etc.), let alone tracking them down from sellers in the first place. If you haven't already figured it out, I don't even roll Rivens, I just own many high quality ones. The system has given me a reason to farm past completion of systems to trade for Platinum and spend later on Rivens that I want for my collection and usage. These mods have kept me playing, and I want to protect one of the only end-game item the game has to offer anymore that really separates yourself from the rest. And yeah, no S#&$ I want to protect my investments. Hundreds of thousands of Platinum is as ludicrous amount. It took serious time and patience to maintain Rivens through multiple major updates changing our mods around, arbitrary Disposition updates, and the powercreep added since I got a Riven from The War Within on the first day. Throw rocks at me and laugh for being that kind of player if you want, but I'm just a very old and active player with the only realistic things to engage with being the systems that cannot be completed. 

All my suggestions revolve around more rolls, not better chances or Riven "crafting" (creating the Riven you want over time). I like that the perfect rolls are just completely random and rare to turn up. I could care less if owning 180 perfect Rivens is feasible. Not being a realistic goal is what makes it enjoyable to slowly build up a collection. Quite possibly, the suggestion I made to open up all multipliers to roll for on all weapons would nullify the suggestion of increased rolling and make the odds potentially worse for specific rolls.

Multiplier creep comes from Bane Mods, Base Damage, GunCO, Arcanes, Helminth Eclipse/Roar/Xata's Whisper, and other stuff. Rivens certainly don't help the situation, but they are honestly archaic in comparison to the other powercreep available to the player. I brought up multiplication creep because it has made Rivens even more strict on what is "top notch" to slot. Oversaturated Base Damage, Status Chance, Critical Chance, and the nerf to Maiming Strike/Slide Attack Critical Chance being the major ones. When Rivens first got added you had much more freedom for what a "god roll" would be, because you could substitute a bunch of different stuff/stack 2 of the same modifier, and it was okay. Now though, you have so much saturation that so many weapons now need Toxin on them just to be slottable.