I'm noticing something disturbing

[TeaHands]

1 minute ago, Mazifet said:

I'm actually really enjoying Duviri; not many bugs, fun combat, great music, beautiful open world, and a solid amount of content.

Having randomized loadouts is also great, as it shows me weapons and warframes I've yet to get or be interested in, and allows for a lot more variety in my gameplay other than "haha equinox go brrr"

Yeah, I was having a lot of fun and got major whiplash coming here lol. I really enjoy switching between Drifter Melee gameplay and then full on Warframe. The Decrees are as hilarious and broken as I hoped they'd be.

[Raarsi]

After going through the Duviri story, I wound up having the exact same thoughts as I did after watching that latest Thor movie: it was something very different that I personally didn't mind despite most people hating it, but I'd still rather see future releases to be more of a return to form compared to what we've gotten somewhat recently.

At least the upside is that Duviri is still not as bad for me as TNW ever was, so it could be worse.

[quxier]

39 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

2. Add enemies for the Warframe that are moderately challenging. 

If games literally forces you to just obliterate a lot of enemies then they will be simple "shoot me Daddy/Mommy" kind of enemies. If we get decent rewards for taking slow action then we can talk about such enemies.

39 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

7. Let us use our Railjack to fight those more gigantic worms in space. 

 

DO THIS DE. PRINT MONEY. Just common sense. 

Suggest nice gear (frame) then suggest literal rock as gear. Not good, not good.

36 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

39 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

4. IMPROVE the K-DRIVE. Duviri is an EXCELLENT SKTE PARK. 

K-Drive is already fine, at least if you know how to use it.

It's clunky. Slams are literally 2 keys (1 hold). And others stuffs that's not great to use.

 

[SDGDen]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

I mean... 

They'd address it, but half the community passes out after hearing the single word "nerf"...

actually, i asked the devs this in the recent AMA!

 

Q: how do you view "power creep" and the topic of player power VS game challenge?

A: 

We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals!

The one downside of this, is that it's near impossible to make truly challenging content when Warframes can easily be immortal and deal ludicrous amounts of damage. Those two objectives are at odds with each other, and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.

-[DE]Pablo

 

 

so uh.... they're not going to address it, even if the community was anything less than severely allergic to "nerf"

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Does not one know what a rougelite is? Lol

[American]

Then dont play

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 29 minutos, SDGDen dijo:

actually, i asked the devs this in the recent AMA!

 

Q: how do you view "power creep" and the topic of player power VS game challenge?

A: 

We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals!

The one downside of this, is that it's near impossible to make truly challenging content when Warframes can easily be immortal and deal ludicrous amounts of damage. Those two objectives are at odds with each other, and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.

-[DE]Pablo

 

 

so uh.... they're not going to address it, even if the community was anything less than severely allergic to "nerf"

 

there are ways to keep the power fantasy without being as unbalanced as the current game, there's a very interesting thread about how they talked about adding balance to the game while keeping that feeling of power and it at least convinced me that it's possible.

[EdinaMonsoon]

1 hour ago, TeaHands said:

Yeah, I was having a lot of fun and got major whiplash coming here lol. I really enjoy switching between Drifter Melee gameplay and then full on Warframe. The Decrees are as hilarious and broken as I hoped they'd be.

same here, i've been feeling burnt out on warframe the past couple of months (which is fine, it happens) and this is the first time i've stayed up til 4am playing this game in a long, LONG time! i really wish i booked the week off work 😭

[Yamazuki]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Does not one know what a rougelite is? Lol

Yes, the type of game that Warframe wasn't, which is what the OP is complaining about.

I'm not really bothered by the random Warframes, but the random weapons at SP feels terrible.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 minute ago, Yamazuki said:

Yes, the type of game that Warframe wasn't,

But it is now so...

1 minute ago, Yamazuki said:

I'm not really bothered by the random Warframes, but the random weapons at SP feels terrible.

Then I suggest that you start building those weapons up so you can use them. 😉 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 minuto, (XBOX)Shodian dijo:

Then I suggest that you start building those weapons up so you can use them. 😉 

Warframes are viable in SP to a greater or lesser extent, but the same is not true for weapons, some are excellent and some are terrible even if well built.

[Yamazuki]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

But it is now so...

This doesn't change what Warframe is, considering Railjack, Archwing, K-Drive, etc didn't. They're all just small sub-sections of the game that have short lifespans.

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Then I suggest that you start building those weapons up so you can use them. 😉 

I never asked for your suggestion based on your made up assumption; and the matter isn't whether I built the weapon or not. There are categories of weapons I have no interest in and some are simply bad to begin with and are reliant on the Warframe it is paired with to do anything which is random; we also can't even change mods equipped with accordance to the random Warframe we got while in the cave. I would also have no control over what other people invest into, and DE has already stated most people play the game set to public.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

6 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Warframes are viable in SP to a greater or lesser extent, but the same is not true for weapons, some are excellent and some are terrible even if well built.

Much like a rougelite you'll have some great runs and you'll have some terrible runs.

[PollexMessier]

Love how the devs seem to consistently think what a game that's biggest fun factor is it's movement and build customization needs is... less fun movement and build customization.

The Void dash nerf from the angels of zariman update all but killed the game for me and completely obliterated any enthusiam for further updates I might've had. but nearly every major update they've made since I started playing repeatedly convinced me the devs have no idea what make their game enjoyable.

[Graavarg]

3 hours ago, cyntreau said:

...and it's literally because they can't seem to understand what players want from Warframe, or they are being forced by some unseen benefactor that is forcing them to move the game in a certain direction.

This is pretty much spot on, not only for Duviri but for the last year or so. It could be a sort of total lack of actually creative ideas, so they go with something they pick up from somewhere. That is usually some small idea that then gets a lot of focus and, it seems, very little creative thought. Like "oh, the playerbase really like Kahl...", or "the AoE/specter problem has got out of hands, so we [finally] need to fix it but part of the playerbase seems to play only this way, so let's change ammo instead...", or "the playerbase always like power and sure we've said we'll try to rein in the power creep, but let's give them archon shards and call it new endgame", and now... well...

It really seems like there is no clear over-arching creative vision or path, just (really) small ideas they pick up and then DE's existing "tech" (software packages, which actually are pretty good) is applied together with "math" to create something "new". The "math"-based thinking is destroying new content in two ways:

First of all it seems the guidelines for the overall "creative design" is some kindergarden "retainment" calculations, how to create numbers that show players still playing the game. The kind of numbers you show in the boardroom as an excel chart during the monthly meeting. There is a whiff of desperation when the "creative design" is all about using different gimmicks to force players to spend time playing the game, instead of trying to generate large amounts of fun and enjoyment. It might be my imagination, but I've seen this creeping into the game more and more, both for "short term" retainment (like the "mirror defense") and "long time" retainment (like "gathering Archon shards"). The reasoning: if anyone at DE is actually really and truly believing that the playerbase in general is still enjoying the content in question when they finally collect "the reward" (like getting all Citrine parts, or collecting the last arcane to max out the "mirror defense" arcanes) that dev is living in an alternate reality. The opposite is that they know we'll be "hating" the content at that point, but it doesn't matter because mathematically they've forced us to be "retained" for the designed X hours.

Secondly, the "math" has crept in as a fix-it-all in the actual gameplay as well, also replacing "really real" creative design. How combat, missions, gear and interactions work have moved from how it "feels" to play to how it "works" to play, with focus on "effectiveness" and "power". Not the "wow, I'm really getting the hang of this game/warframe/weapon/mission/mechanic/damage/modding and it sure feels great when I play the game"-kind of becoming more effective and powerful, but the "the game is all about copying an OP build, buying an OP riven and pressing a button"-kind of power and effectiveness. My personal opinion is that this destructive "math power"-view crept in at DE using the Warframe/DE-principle of "ok, the playerbase again came up with a new exploit and it isn't destroying the game so we'll allow it to stay" as a backdoor. Don't get me wrong, that principle was one of the great things about DE and Warframe, but there is HUGE difference between the playerbase using the sandbox to come up with new innovative solutions and with DE devs implementing such "innovative mathematical solutions" as a core design principle and a way to "fix" things.

What all this boils down to is a combined "leading the players by the nose"- & "it's all in the numbers"-approach to design philosophy that seems to have taken root at DE. It might be a "forced" situation (for example by an ownership needing/wanting to extract every single penny instead of re-investing in the game) or it might be a "lack of forward vision"-thing (since so much "new" stuff is just re-skinned "old" stuff and the actual "new content" is actually quite slim), or it might be a lack of creativity, pure and simple. I have no idea and I might be (even totally) wrong, but IRL I work with stuff at a level where these kinds of things come up all the time, and it doesn't feel all that complicated.

I've liked and played "still in beta"-Warframe for quite a while for three simple reasons: the whole basic concept together with the implemented technical solutions really "created" a fun player experience, it was even (a lot) more fun to play the sprawling, ever-growing game with friends and I trusted DE to "handle their humongous baby with care". The strange arbitrary "locks" on existing potential content diversity (riven slots, warframe slots etc.) and the immense repetitiveness of ALL new content has killed off most of the "having fun while playing"-aspect. It actually seems as if DE intentionally is trying to transfer the "meaning of fun" from playing to getting drops/rewards. The focus on the "single player power experience/effectiveness" has killed the co-op (with "personalized rewards" being the nail in the coffin). And while the "trust" has taken a few hits now and then over time, it just evaporated over the last year or two. From my viewpoint/feelings it is now up to DE to make me trust in Warframe again, and they are not doing a very good job of that, at present.

I still think Warframe is one of the all-time great games, and a lot of that content and fun is still there, for new players. But it just isn't fun enough at present, that kind of fun doesn't show up on the horizon and it also simply isn't a game for a second play-through. There is lot of potential already in the game, if DE were to go in a "sideways development" direction, connecting and enlarging existing content instead of creating a string archipelago of content islands leading to... well, "nowhere".

My main gripe with Duviri is that to me it epitomizes "all that is currently wrong" with Warframe. It's hyped repetitiveness, forced retainment using "rewards", and just another re-skinned content island. Of course it isn't all bad, and it is great with content focusing on newer players (once that content starts working). But "fun enough to actually play for the fun alone", well...

[Felsagger]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

If games literally forces you to just obliterate a lot of enemies then they will be simple "shoot me Daddy/Mommy" kind of enemies. If we get decent rewards for taking slow action then we can talk about such enemies.

Quxier, agree 100 percent. If tough moving and slow action enemies gives rewards of some sort, on a fair amount, why not. We can have them. 

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Suggest nice gear (frame) then suggest literal rock as gear. Not good, not good.

Why not? People will motivate buffing up their Railjacks. Railjack is Warframe too. Why not integrate it to the core loop?

5 hours ago, quxier said:

It's clunky. Slams are literally 2 keys (1 hold). And others stuffs that's not great to use.

K drives can become creat. Look how cool that Lucio dude is. K drives can be simply amazing. 

 

[Lilybun]

I guess I've played too much warframe to not find the game too interesting anymore without my own fun builds. I guess it's aimed for new players but I sure hope they don't get the same experience I have had so far. If I picked this up and was shoved into what I just played I would consider the game a student game jam project with amazing art assets. The gameplay is shallow and repetitive with no real sense of progression the same way base warframe offers progression.

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

This is pretty much spot on, not only for Duviri but for the last year or so. It could be a sort of total lack of actually creative ideas, so they go with something they pick up from somewhere. That is usually some small idea that then gets a lot of focus and, it seems, very little creative thought. Like "oh, the playerbase really like Kahl...", or "the AoE/specter problem has got out of hands, so we [finally] need to fix it but part of the playerbase seems to play only this way, so let's change ammo instead...", or "the playerbase always like power and sure we've said we'll try to rein in the power creep, but let's give them archon shards and call it new endgame", and now... well...

It really seems like there is no clear over-arching creative vision or path, just (really) small ideas they pick up and then DE's existing "tech" (software packages, which actually are pretty good) is applied together with "math" to create something "new". The "math"-based thinking is destroying new content in two ways:

First of all it seems the guidelines for the overall "creative design" is some kindergarden "retainment" calculations, how to create numbers that show players still playing the game. The kind of numbers you show in the boardroom as an excel chart during the monthly meeting. There is a whiff of desperation when the "creative design" is all about using different gimmicks to force players to spend time playing the game, instead of trying to generate large amounts of fun and enjoyment. It might be my imagination, but I've seen this creeping into the game more and more, both for "short term" retainment (like the "mirror defense") and "long time" retainment (like "gathering Archon shards"). The reasoning: if anyone at DE is actually really and truly believing that the playerbase in general is still enjoying the content in question when they finally collect "the reward" (like getting all Citrine parts, or collecting the last arcane to max out the "mirror defense" arcanes) that dev is living in an alternate reality. The opposite is that they know we'll be "hating" the content at that point, but it doesn't matter because mathematically they've forced us to be "retained" for the designed X hours.

Secondly, the "math" has crept in as a fix-it-all in the actual gameplay as well, also replacing "really real" creative design. How combat, missions, gear and interactions work have moved from how it "feels" to play to how it "works" to play, with focus on "effectiveness" and "power". Not the "wow, I'm really getting the hang of this game/warframe/weapon/mission/mechanic/damage/modding and it sure feels great when I play the game"-kind of becoming more effective and powerful, but the "the game is all about copying an OP build, buying an OP riven and pressing a button"-kind of power and effectiveness. My personal opinion is that this destructive "math power"-view crept in at DE using the Warframe/DE-principle of "ok, the playerbase again came up with a new exploit and it isn't destroying the game so we'll allow it to stay" as a backdoor. Don't get me wrong, that principle was one of the great things about DE and Warframe, but there is HUGE difference between the playerbase using the sandbox to come up with new innovative solutions and with DE devs implementing such "innovative mathematical solutions" as a core design principle and a way to "fix" things.

What all this boils down to is a combined "leading the players by the nose"- & "it's all in the numbers"-approach to design philosophy that seems to have taken root at DE. It might be a "forced" situation (for example by an ownership needing/wanting to extract every single penny instead of re-investing in the game) or it might be a "lack of forward vision"-thing (since so much "new" stuff is just re-skinned "old" stuff and the actual "new content" is actually quite slim), or it might be a lack of creativity, pure and simple. I have no idea and I might be (even totally) wrong, but IRL I work with stuff at a level where these kinds of things come up all the time, and it doesn't feel all that complicated.

I've liked and played "still in beta"-Warframe for quite a while for three simple reasons: the whole basic concept together with the implemented technical solutions really "created" a fun player experience, it was even (a lot) more fun to play the sprawling, ever-growing game with friends and I trusted DE to "handle their humongous baby with care". The strange arbitrary "locks" on existing potential content diversity (riven slots, warframe slots etc.) and the immense repetitiveness of ALL new content has killed off most of the "having fun while playing"-aspect. It actually seems as if DE intentionally is trying to transfer the "meaning of fun" from playing to getting drops/rewards. The focus on the "single player power experience/effectiveness" has killed the co-op (with "personalized rewards" being the nail in the coffin). And while the "trust" has taken a few hits now and then over time, it just evaporated over the last year or two. From my viewpoint/feelings it is now up to DE to make me trust in Warframe again, and they are not doing a very good job of that, at present.

I still think Warframe is one of the all-time great games, and a lot of that content and fun is still there, for new players. But it just isn't fun enough at present, that kind of fun doesn't show up on the horizon and it also simply isn't a game for a second play-through. There is lot of potential already in the game, if DE were to go in a "sideways development" direction, connecting and enlarging existing content instead of creating a string archipelago of content islands leading to... well, "nowhere".

My main gripe with Duviri is that to me it epitomizes "all that is currently wrong" with Warframe. It's hyped repetitiveness, forced retainment using "rewards", and just another re-skinned content island. Of course it isn't all bad, and it is great with content focusing on newer players (once that content starts working). But "fun enough to actually play for the fun alone", well...

 

This is a perfect post that hits the head of the nail. 

This post is FULL OF TRUTH. 

I invite the reader to READ IT CAREFULLY. It is a coherent, precise, exact and surgical exposition of what is happening with the game and the Studio. 

[D3thpool]

12 hours ago, Haleks said:

My thoughts exactly... And most likely why The New War had us play the drifter for 90% of the quest.

Which was another instance of forcing the player to into a different "game" and after i finished that quest i havent logged on since. Remember when warframe was about space ninjas? Over time, again and again, DE tried to assimilate other subgenres into warframe. And the majority of those are, imo, hugely against the core experience which made warframe popular in the first place.

Sure, stuff like the necramech was actually fun, the liches where a welcome addition, but i'll be damned if i ever do another hoverboard race, mine some freaking ores or grind reputation for lifeless npcs in an freaking mmo hub. I played and loved warframe once for not having game mechanics forced down my throat i couldnt care nor want in the first place.

Somewhere along the line, warframe lost its own identity and became sort of a frankensteins monster of video games. If the would introduce pokemon like game mechanics i wouldnt bat an eye at this point.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, D3thpool said:

Which was another instance of forcing the player to into a different "game" and after i finished that quest i havent logged on since. Remember when warframe was about space ninjas? Over time DE tried to assimilate other genres into the game which went, imo, hugely against the core which made warframe popular in the first place. Sure, stuff like the necramech was actually fun, the liches where a welcome addition, but i'll be damned if i ever do another hoverboard race, mine some freaking ores or grind reputation for lifeless npcs in an freaking mmo hub. I played and loved warframe once for not having game mechanics forced down my throat i couldnt care nor want in the first place.

Somewhere along the line, warframe lost its own identity and became sort of a frankensteins monster of video games. If the would introduce pokemon like game mechanics i wouldnt bat an eye at this point.

 

I will tell you an Irony of LIFE. 

GUERRILLA GAMES IS TAKING TRAITS of that GREAT WARFRAME game in Horizon Zero Burning SHORES. The damage system RESEMBLES A LOT Warframe. They are doing the pick up VACUUM item QoL identically to Warframe. 

 

See? Other great developers recognize that Warframe, the game about Warframes, IS A great game. 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

YOU ALONE SAID that Duviri is another  CONTENT ISLAND in just one line. 

 

AND?! I never said anything else?!?! You taking this as some kind of victory is bizarre.

[Felsagger]

4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

AND?! I never said anything else?!?! You taking this as some kind of victory is bizarre.

You are interpreting it the wrong way. 

 

This is the chance that DE has to RECTIFY. 

[Felsagger]

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

 

 

Also to respond to Felsagger:

Wouldn't really make sense as at the time the drifter doesn't have operator powers.

Story wise that is correct. Hence that's why we have a quest. 

But Duviri is an excellent place for roaming, testing, flying and exploring Warframe Parkour. 

You know, the true purpose of Warframe?

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

Literally impossible. 

Nullifiers says hi. 

Devices that limits and cuts Warframe powers exists. In new War happened with the Murex. Warframe where stripped pushing the player use the operator. 

Pylons of energy absorption and reduction says hi. 

Come on use your imagination. Warframe can have temporary windows of vulnerability by external devices that the enemy may use. 

THINK. 

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

PoE, OV, and CD are pretty populated (wish they weren't just let me fish in peace gosh darnit) but I do agree that duviri doesn't have very high enemy density.

We must put more enemies in it. There should be a sense of danger. True. 

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

K-Drive is already fine, at least if you know how to use it.

I know how to use them but that's not the general "consensus" that everybody has about them. They are clunky and they need refinements. 

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

There's an intrinsic that lets us do that in open worlds.

That's good. We agree here. 

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

It would be cool, but I have no idea how they would begin to implement that. 

Unexpected danger, unexpected boss fights. 

DE foreshadowed those worms previously when we were using our Railjack. 

8 hours ago, Mazifet said:

It would have to be scaled in difficulty by a lot, since one seeker volley would obliterate it.

Yes, enemy needs BUFFS and tactics instead of being bullet sponges. 

 

Next. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

51 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

This is the chance that DE has to RECTIFY. 

Rectify what? The update that they spent years on and deliberately didn't do what you want? Get real.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Rectify what? The update that they spent years on and deliberately didn't do what you want? Get real.

 

I am not the ONLY ONE who thinks this way.

 

YOU, get real.