Circuit Progress (and materials gained) are lost upon Mission Failure

[twigothee]

Just learned this the hard way. Feels a bit bizarre that in a mode in which you don't have the option of making optimized loadouts you're punished so harshly, particularly given the ability in the Duviri experience being able to extract at any time and keep ALL rewards gained? I'm enjoying pretty much everything else in this update but man I don't think I'm going to engage with the steel path circuit until this is changed.

[Dr_Mechano]

Honestly they should change it so that it's more like Railjack in that it 'saves' (aka sends to the server you've completed said mission) rewards between rounds,

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

you do have the option if you want to continue.   And how many games let you keep all your loot if you fail?   What would be the point in even having fail mechanics in the game in that case?   Would invalidate most of the game.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

how exactly did you fail? genuine question: the only fail state I can imagine is the defense target being destroyed, unless you and the squad actually died so much you ran out of revives..

 

[BuckarooBanzai]

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx a dit :

you do have the option if you want to continue.   And how many games let you keep all your loot if you fail?   What would be the point in even having fail mechanics in the game in that case?   Would invalidate most of the game.

Yes failure should lead to not earning rewards but only for that instance... Losing all rewards from all previous instances makes no sense. Especially for a mode that that is this difficult and rng heavy. In extreme cases where this is bad is a case where rest of the team selects extract at the final second causing you to end up solo... 

It would feel much better to be able to push your self to your limits and let the game decide for you when you hit that limit instead of constantly wondering if you are going to lose hours of progress because you wanted to challenge your self (we are not even gaining any extra reward for all that risk...)

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

17 minutes ago, BuckarooBanzai said:

Yes failure should lead to not earning rewards but only for that instance... Losing all rewards from all previous instances makes no sense. Especially for a mode that that is this difficult and rng heavy. In extreme cases where this is bad is a case where rest of the team selects extract at the final second causing you to end up solo... 

It would feel much better to be able to push your self to your limits and let the game decide for you when you hit that limit instead of constantly wondering if you are going to lose hours of progress because you wanted to challenge your self (we are not even gaining any extra reward for all that risk...)

 

I'd argue that for once we have a meaningful decision to make - continue or not.   It tells you the next mission type, if you're starting to hit a wall or don't like the next mission, leave.   You can come back in for another run.   The "risk" is a choice you are responsible for.   These are rogue-like missions, it's how they are supposed to be.   I think it's good to have some risk back in the game after so long with virtually none.

The extract thing, yeah, but it's like that on all endless missions, it's not a new feature.

[Hayrack]

Welcome to Warframe. This game mode is designed to be as annoying and tedious as possible, that's the point.

[twigothee]

17 hours ago, BuckarooBanzai said:

Yes failure should lead to not earning rewards but only for that instance... Losing all rewards from all previous instances makes no sense. Especially for a mode that that is this difficult and rng heavy. In extreme cases where this is bad is a case where rest of the team selects extract at the final second causing you to end up solo... 

It would feel much better to be able to push your self to your limits and let the game decide for you when you hit that limit instead of constantly wondering if you are going to lose hours of progress because you wanted to challenge your self (we are not even gaining any extra reward for all that risk...)

See this approach I would totally be down with! I think given the structure of the circuit it just becomes a situation wherein you just are simply forced to leave if you roll into a defense objective post wave 5 sp? Dependent on team size ++ what your squad rolled into. I think DE is actually already looking into correcting this what with the devstream discussion alterations and bonus objectives to the defense objectives. I think something akin to Mirror defenses citrine bits would be fantastic to that end. I'm excited to see what comes of that!

 

[twigothee]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

you do have the option if you want to continue.   And how many games let you keep all your loot if you fail?   What would be the point in even having fail mechanics in the game in that case?   Would invalidate most of the game.

They have literally done surveys on what way players would like failstates to occur before and what consequences they incur. I really don't feel like it would invalidate the game at all, but just by the way you're phrasing things I'm inclined to believe you have a fundamentally different perspective.

[Phunk42069]

On 2023-04-28 at 1:02 PM, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

 

I'd argue that for once we have a meaningful decision to make - continue or not.   It tells you the next mission type, if you're starting to hit a wall or don't like the next mission, leave.   You can come back in for another run.   The "risk" is a choice you are responsible for.   These are rogue-like missions, it's how they are supposed to be.   I think it's good to have some risk back in the game after so long with virtually none.

The extract thing, yeah, but it's like that on all endless missions, it's not a new feature.

There's no wall when one unit can one shot the defense, It's impossible and it should not lose us all the progress. 

[Tsukinoki]

17 minutes ago, Phunk42069 said:

There's no wall when one unit can one shot the defense, It's impossible and it should not lose us all the progress. 

Sorry, but provide proof of this.

I ran a SP circuit last night to where the enemies were well over level 1000 when we finally were looking at it and going "Ok the defense objective is actually getting damaged...." and even then we only stopped because it was more tedious than difficult.
The enemies were still a very long ways from one shotting the defense objective...and they were still easily locked down to the point of being utterly harmless nearly the instant the spawned in.

 

But maybe you should be paying attention and going "Oh the enemies can actually take chunks out of the defense target...might be a good idea to stop before the next defense mission instead of pushing it." if you aren't confident you can handle the situation.

On 2023-04-28 at 1:52 AM, twigothee said:

I'm enjoying pretty much everything else in this update but man I don't think I'm going to engage with the steel path circuit until this is changed.

So you failed, you suffered the penalty of failing and that is too much for you?

Honest question: What's the point of having objectives that you have to complete if failing to complete them results in absolutely no penalty or anything else?

 

Steel path circuit is just like any other mission in warframe: If you fail you lose everything.
And there are multiple reasons for that.
One of which can be blamed on the playerbase: If it's faster to force a mission failure than successfully finish a mission the playerbase will choose the force a mission failure the majority of the time.  So DE puts in a penalty to stop you from forcing a mission failure.  It used to be quite the problem back in the day...

Beyond that it adds a factor of risk vs reward: Progress further in the rounds and get more points per round finished....or quit out now and bank what we got because you aren't confident you can handle the next round.

[Kaiga]

51 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Sorry, but provide proof of this.

I ran a SP circuit last night to where the enemies were well over level 1000 when we finally were looking at it and going "Ok the defense objective is actually getting damaged...." and even then we only stopped because it was more tedious than difficult.
The enemies were still a very long ways from one shotting the defense objective...and they were still easily locked down to the point of being utterly harmless nearly the instant the spawned in.

 

But maybe you should be paying attention and going "Oh the enemies can actually take chunks out of the defense target...might be a good idea to stop before the next defense mission instead of pushing it." if you aren't confident you can handle the situation.

So you failed, you suffered the penalty of failing and that is too much for you?

Honest question: What's the point of having objectives that you have to complete if failing to complete them results in absolutely no penalty or anything else?

 

Steel path circuit is just like any other mission in warframe: If you fail you lose everything.
And there are multiple reasons for that.
One of which can be blamed on the playerbase: If it's faster to force a mission failure than successfully finish a mission the playerbase will choose the force a mission failure the majority of the time.  So DE puts in a penalty to stop you from forcing a mission failure.  It used to be quite the problem back in the day...

Beyond that it adds a factor of risk vs reward: Progress further in the rounds and get more points per round finished....or quit out now and bank what we got because you aren't confident you can handle the next round.

The "git gud" take remains a bozo one on this issue no matter how lengthily you try to word it. 

The health of defense objectives does not scale properly, and while your team may have been fortunate enough to have rolled good spawns or enough CC or lockdown gear to prevent yourself from experiencing this, other squads have seen this happen at around level 400 and above.

The enemies appear randomly, and sometimes the mission doesnt even start until suddenly BAM enemies and the thing's half dead (yay duviri playtesting). The corrupted heavy gunner is also notorious for having atomic bullets, which at these levels makes it rather easy for this to happen.

But sure. I'll shadowplay our next run to see if we get bad luck'd or not.

[Tsukinoki]

16 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

other squads have seen this happen at around level 400 and above.

I want specifically to see the defense objective being one shot at level 400 SP....because that sure as hek wasn't happening in my runs.

Enemies were over level 1000 and sure they hurt the defense objective quite a bit, but it was still a long ways off of being a one shot.

 

And again that just goes back to:
If you don't think you can defend the objective why are you pushing past that?

[Kaiga]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

I want specifically to see the defense objective being one shot at level 400 SP....because that sure as hek wasn't happening in my runs.

Enemies were over level 1000 and sure they hurt the defense objective quite a bit, but it was still a long ways off of being a one shot.

 

And again that just goes back to:
If you don't think you can defend the objective why are you pushing past that?

Look, I know you're invested in this but there's no defending the objective against delayed spawns or bugged burst damage. Not everything can be dumbed down to "lol skill issue"

Let me break this down barney style: The objectives don't seem to appear until everyone loads in, which is fine, but- if it takes too long in the case of the host having a slow network/computer or temporarily losing connection, the objective might never appear at all, or will randomly appear with no warning along with the enemies next to it, which results in that one shot potential.

The content suffering performance problems or bad design should not be considered as yet another gear check, thinking that is should be is white knighting DE at this point.

[Raanab]

I can't say for sure if this works for the circuit too, but I know in the experience while if you leave/fail out that it will give you a blank reward screen like that, but if you check your inventory the stuff is there (at least the marrow and cinta parts that I knew what I had before hand) I feel like there's an issue at the moment where the rewards get saved at certain points, but if you drop out or fail, it only uses the info from the failed round. But like I said, haven't checked on the circuit, so don't know if it's the same way.

[Phunk42069]

7 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Sorry, but provide proof of this.

I ran a SP circuit last night to where the enemies were well over level 1000 when we finally were looking at it and going "Ok the defense objective is actually getting damaged...." and even then we only stopped because it was more tedious than difficult.
The enemies were still a very long ways from one shotting the defense objective...and they were still easily locked down to the point of being utterly harmless nearly the instant the spawned in.

 

But maybe you should be paying attention and going "Oh the enemies can actually take chunks out of the defense target...might be a good idea to stop before the next defense mission instead of pushing it." if you aren't confident you can handle the situation.

So you failed, you suffered the penalty of failing and that is too much for you?

Honest question: What's the point of having objectives that you have to complete if failing to complete them results in absolutely no penalty or anything else?

 

Steel path circuit is just like any other mission in warframe: If you fail you lose everything.
And there are multiple reasons for that.
One of which can be blamed on the playerbase: If it's faster to force a mission failure than successfully finish a mission the playerbase will choose the force a mission failure the majority of the time.  So DE puts in a penalty to stop you from forcing a mission failure.  It used to be quite the problem back in the day...

Beyond that it adds a factor of risk vs reward: Progress further in the rounds and get more points per round finished....or quit out now and bank what we got because you aren't confident you can handle the next round.

You want proof? stay there until the enemies are at least at level 2550 and go defense, let the thrax unit go and slap your objective and then come at me with those "wise" words. 

[Tsukinoki]

9 hours ago, Phunk42069 said:

You want proof? stay there until the enemies are at least at level 2550 and go defense, let the thrax unit go and slap your objective and then come at me with those "wise" words. 

Then I have an honest question here:
Why are you pushing to level 2550 without being sure you can handle that level of defense?

 

I mean seriously.
Yes you do get more points for later waves...but you have to be sure that you can actually, you know, kill enemies and protect the defense objective.
And it's not like the defense missions are complete surprises.

 

So it still goes back to a player issue, not a game issue:
If you can't handle level 2550 defense missions, why are you continuing knowing that is exactly what you are getting?

[przemo877]

I wouldn't mind if defense objectives were actually scaling properly with their HP. But they don't.

[Hypernaut1]

I hope this ushers in era where Warframe players actually try to protect the objective again. 

[maru7w]

I wish DE just removed Defense from the mission rotation. It feels miserable to play Defense in the Steel Path Circuit mode, while the other mission types are pretty fun even with RNG loadouts. Maybe replace it with Interception or Void Armageddon.

[Marvelous_A]

There's really no point in staying for more than 1 complete round. If anything you should extract before the 2nd defense.

[L3512]

28 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I hope this ushers in era where Warframe players actually try to protect the objective again. 

It just gets instantly deleted at higher levels.

All that happens players extracting as soon as they see a defence, it leads to an absolute pittance in progress on the reward track and is completely against the idea of building power through decrees.

[Phunk42069]

4 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Then I have an honest question here:
Why are you pushing to level 2550 without being sure you can handle that level of defense?

 

I mean seriously.
Yes you do get more points for later waves...but you have to be sure that you can actually, you know, kill enemies and protect the defense objective.
And it's not like the defense missions are complete surprises.

 

So it still goes back to a player issue, not a game issue:
If you can't handle level 2550 defense missions, why are you continuing knowing that is exactly what you are getting?

That's the whole point, not everyone has friends or people that know this game well enough not to suck. also remember that the circuit gives you random warframes and weapons to choose from. it's not like I can get a defense or dps frame just cause I want to.  also let's say I get an amazing damage frame like Mirage, do you think I can protect that defense with *Potentially* random weapons with probably random builds cause no one has all the weapons with 5 forma, catalyst and adaptor ready to go. like fr fr. 

I am also going that high because it's fun, it's Warframe and I love going against super high level enemies. I can survive and kill well enough but when I have to protect a target that dies from a wind blow....It's just not fun. Defense is horrible for random loadouts and even more for randoms that also have to use random loadouts that want to experience high level and get rewards in one go. 

[Kaiga]

7 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Then I have an honest question here:
Why are you pushing to level 2550 without being sure you can handle that level of defense?

 

I mean seriously.
Yes you do get more points for later waves...but you have to be sure that you can actually, you know, kill enemies and protect the defense objective.
And it's not like the defense missions are complete surprises.

 

So it still goes back to a player issue, not a game issue:
If you can't handle level 2550 defense missions, why are you continuing knowing that is exactly what you are getting?

Checkmate stalingrad, DE agreed with me/the rest of us and subsequently patched the very obvious scaling problems



Pretending these problems didn't exist and saying "Well erm, you're just not up to handling the content!" is very silly, i expected more from a founder tbh