New EULA stipulations regarding information of bugs in videos is baffling and concerning

[Silligoose]

• Warframe: End User License Agreement :
• We hope that you enjoy our games and support your interest in producing game-play videos, whether live or recorded (“VIDEOS”), that share your gaming experiences with others, using images, video, sound effects, in-game music, or other assets from our games (“CONTENT”)
• What you may not include in your Video that leverages our Content:
• "Any information related to cheats, hacks, exploits, bugs, or third-party programs, including links to any of the foregoing;"

The above are excerpts from the new EULA. I've posted them to make it clear what "videos" and "content" refers to but include a link so people may verify and have access to the full context.

I understand the DE wouldn't want videos that share cheats or hacks to be available, but I can't remember the last time this game had a new content update without a myriad of bugs and the last few were especially bug-ridden. Duviri still suffers from them, as evidenced in the bug section. According to this, Warframe content creators posting videos on a site such as Youtube for commercial reasons, are no longer allowed to have videos that contain any information related to bugs. Technically, certain ranged weapons with Galvanized Savvy mods are not allowed in videos, as it would serve as information related to a bug (Galvanized Savvy applies multiplicative damage instead of additive damage, which would be seen if one takes the build, enemy, procs etc into account when looking at the damage done). No more mention of bugs in the game when we get a new update, even if it is again riddled with game breaking bugs, such as Duviri. If a new weapon comes out and it is not working as intended (ie bugged), it may not be mentioned or shown. Incarnon weapons that STILL have talents that do not properly work, may not be mentioned. The list goes on.

If one wants to get real technical, it means even general gaming content creators and reviewers with wide audiences (eg Videogamedunkey), would not be allowed to make an honest review of the game or new updates, since an honest review would mention bugs and of course certain meme videos are out of the question.

Is this DE's way of trying to maintain better public sentiment? To me it is very concerning. It seems very dodgy and red flags are waving all over the place, in that bugs are apparently big enough a concern to want to silence bigger content creators from having any information on them in videos, but not so big a concern as to actually just sort out the bugs, especially the more game-breaking ones, prior to release to the public.

Why is this even in the EULA? If DE is so concerned about bugs, why not fix them?

Edit: The EULA does state: "Your use of our Content in Videos must be limited to non-commercial purposes, except as expressly stated under this Streaming Policy:". As such users posting videos to simply serve as non-commercial proof of bugs are likely free and clear.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Silligoose

[Skoomaseller]

so my whole yareli bug post is in violation of the EULA

they couldn't fix her so they outlawed mentioning anything about her. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

[Genitive]

It should probably be worded better, but I assume this point means those bugs that lead to exploits, considering this particular line talks about them.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

It is a bit vague, maybe they're talking about bugs that benefit the player but I guess that's what an exploit is and that was already mentioned 

Edited July 7, 2023 by (XBOX)C11H22O11

[Silligoose]

12 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

so my whole yareli bug post is in violation of the EULA

they couldn't fix her so they outlawed mentioning anything about her. 

At first I thought users posting videos to serve as proof of bugs may be in violation of the EULA as well, but the EULA does state "Your use of our Content in Videos must be limited to non-commercial purposes, except as expressly stated under this Streaming Policy:", so I believe posts such as those would not be in violation.

[Tsukinoki]

33 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Is this DE's way of trying to maintain better public sentiment?

Context is supremely important in eulas and similar materials.

Let's look at the context of the bug line again:

33 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

"Any information related to cheats, hacks, exploits, bugs, or third-party programs, including links to any of the foregoing;"

It is referring to bugs in the context of cheats, hacks, exploits, and third-party programs.

This is most likely talking about vidoes that showcase "Hey if you do X, Y and Z then it causes a bug that allows you to do this exploit and get tons of resources/arcanes/debt-bonds/whatever!"

DE doesn't want people to post "Here's a bug in this content and how to exploit it for maximum profit!"
Such as if you found a bug that allowed you to instantly finish the fishing minigame in duviri and do it repeatedly, DE would use the EULA to stop you from creating a video that outlines the steps needed to reproduce that bug.
Or a bug that allows you to gain extra decrees in the circuit.
Or something along those lines.

 

They don't care if you post a bug that is either game breaking, or "funny" but doesn't have any actual impact.
They care if you're tryi ng to give out tutorials on how to exploit events.

Such as what happened around some older clan events where some clans figured out "Oh hey, if you limit the hosts FPS to under 1 then the timer bugs out and you can get infinite points, and here's how to do it!"

 

They aren't trying to stop people from talking about bugs in warframe (that is impossible).
They are trying to stop people from making content that is essentially a tutorial on how to exploit the game.

[Silligoose]

5 minutes ago, Genitive said:

It should probably be worded better, but I assume this point means those bugs that lead to exploits, considering this particular line talks about them.

We can make assumption, but the current does indicate any information regarding bugs in "videos" as set out in the EULA would be in violation of the agreement. I would like to assume it is badly worded and simply ineptitude from whomever wrote that up, but when it comes to matters such as these, one goes with what is stated. 

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

It is a bit vague, maybe they're talking about bugs that benefit the player but I guess that's what an exploit is and that was already mentioned 

My thoughts exactly. Between vast number of bugs released with new content these days and now this coming out... maybe I've become too distrusting of DE, but, well, as I've said I find it concerning.

[Silligoose]

1 minute ago, Tsukinoki said:

It is referring to bugs in the context of cheats, hacks, exploits, and third-party programs.

This is most likely talking about vidoes that showcase "Hey if you do X, Y and Z then it causes a bug that allows you to do this exploit and get tons of resources/arcanes/debt-bonds/whatever!"

DE doesn't want people to post "Here's a bug in this content and how to exploit it for maximum profit!"
Such as if you found a bug that allowed you to instantly finish the fishing minigame in duviri and do it repeatedly, DE would use the EULA to stop you from creating a video that outlines the steps needed to reproduce that bug.
Or a bug that allows you to gain extra decrees in the circuit.
Or something along those lines.

 

They don't care if you post a bug that is either game breaking, or "funny" but doesn't have any actual impact.
They care if you're tryi ng to give out tutorials on how to exploit events.

Such as what happened around some older clan events where some clans figured out "Oh hey, if you limit the hosts FPS to under 1 then the timer bugs out and you can get infinite points, and here's how to do it!"

 

They aren't trying to stop people from talking about bugs in warframe (that is impossible).
They are trying to stop people from making content that is essentially a tutorial on how to exploit the game.

I considered the situation as you and considered it may be meant within the context you speak, but they use the word "or". This means the mentioned bugs do not have to be related to the aforementioned hacks or exploits.

One could assume they meant it within that context, but that is merely an assumption and one interpretation. Given the wording, however, regardless of what we assume, it would be against the EULA for non-commercial videos to contain any information related to bugs. That is what it says.

It could be that DE meant something else. We'll know if that's the case if wording changes.

 

[MouadSaqui]

From what I understand, Players don't share bugs for sport.. in fact they record videos hopping someone at DE notice the bug and fix it..

I don't think someone who exploits warframe would go to such extents.

[SneakyErvin]

Very likely "bugs" is mentioned just to cover cases where an exploit tied to a bug is getting spread by content creators. You know like Venari a few years back and so on. I mean, the very first line of what you posted is in regarding to showing gameplay experience, so the line regarding exploits and bugs probably refers to not showing behavior in-game that can lead to reproduction of bugs tied to exploits and so on. 

It is highly unlikely it refers to mentioning or showing a bug such as a broken bounty step, a skill not working at all or an enemy turning invulnerable at times.

[Numerounius]

Couple of comments about it:

I know for some major exploits or detrimental bugs they couldn't be fixed except by a cert update which could take a couple days for PC and weeks for console would now take weeks for all with update polarity across platforms it makes this a big issue. Wonder if that played a role into this.

It looks like it is still viable to produce in a text-based or auditory guide with no relevant gameplay in the background since it wouldn't be leveraging the WF content to showcase a said bug.  So it looks like content creators can still create videos around the topic.

Needing to clarify what constitutes as a bug or exploit is very important since the waters can get muddied in this area. And we all know how responsive DE can be at responding to bugs which is never for your bug that you want an answer to.

[kamisama85]

At the end of the day, 'legal' wording always has to be open ended because if left too rigid, someone will always find a way to dodge around it by saying "Oh but you said it has to be -exactly- this". There is nothing to be alarmed about here, both as a player or a content creator. Basically just don't make videos with the intent of leveraging any information related to cheats, hacks, exploits, bugs, or third-party programs or any related and you're golden.

Simple as that.

[Letter13]

This is one of those times where it's really helpful to stop and look at the things written immediately before and immediately after, so that you can get that very valuable thing called 'context'.

In this case, is pretty clear that the use of 'bugs' in the written statement pertains to their use in gaining an unfair advantage.

If you're making a non-monetized video to capture/demonstrate a bug to help create a bug report, I highly doubt you're at any sort of risk.

If you're making a video to showcase a bug that provides an unintended benefit or advantage to those who use it and publicly broadcast it (instead of sending it to DE), them you're probably gonna get slapped by this EULA rule.

 

Really it probably comes down to how you use the video of said bug.

[-Krism-]

46 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Really it probably comes down to how you use the video of said bug.

Not everyone has the time nor patience to read a 20,000 words page, a TL;DR would be appreciated; & in own words: "probably", we shouldn't have to guess, the new terms are vague enough that anything can potentially happen

 

If there is a bug detrimental to players or even gamebreaking, & someone makes a video to warn people, how does the new EULA affect it? The wording expressly says "You can't make a video about bugs", period:

What you may not include in your Video:

• Any information related to cheats, hacks, exploits, bugs, or third-party programs, including links to any of the foregoing;

& how does that affect AlecaFrame? It's been going for quite some time, & DE never said nor did anything bad about it; if the answer is "don't use it", they wouldn't have waited so long to say so

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

This is one of those times where it's really helpful to stop and look at the things written immediately before and immediately after, so that you can get that very valuable thing called 'context'.

In this case, is pretty clear that the use of 'bugs' in the written statement pertains to their use in gaining an unfair advantage.

If you're making a non-monetized video to capture/demonstrate a bug to help create a bug report, I highly doubt you're at any sort of risk.

If you're making a video to showcase a bug that provides an unintended benefit or advantage to those who use it and publicly broadcast it (instead of sending it to DE), them you're probably gonna get slapped by this EULA rule.

 

Really it probably comes down to how you use the video of said bug.

I think it would be more helpful to everyone if the following was said instead:

Terms of Service and End User Agreements are always worded in a vague way so that the party responsible for writing said contract is free from all liability and always has the technicality of being in the right in any given situation for legal and disciplinary reasons.

There is no real context or importance to these agreements for common people. It's legalese for a "CYA" (Cover Your Ass) statement. It solely exists so that no matter what action is taken for any given situation, all bases are covered and it isn't the company's problem (Digital Extremes in this case). If DE did not write the word "bug" in this section, a player could argue that they did not promote anything in bad faith, but was sharing a bug with the software to be fixed.

This is why nobody who's an average player should really care about the stipulations of these agreements:

Quote

From time to time, we may offer a beta version of one of our Services (a “BETA”). As the name implies, Betas are not commercial launch versions, are not guaranteed to work properly, and may make other parts of your system not work properly as well.

From the "Beta Testing" section of the EULA. The implication here is that the loss of functionality with the software is temporary and rare, which is hardly the truth at all.

It seldom matters how you actually behaved or what you meant and moreso matters how said behavior is interpreted by the authority reviewing the incident given the liability-free nature of this authority in an environment with these guidelines and agreements in place. This is why everyone who has an ounce of sense disables Region Chat, it's why major bugs, exploits, and datamining is shared through 4Chan, Discord, Reddit, YouTube, and Twitter instead of the official Warframe Forums, it's why "discussing a moderation incident" on the Forums doesn't result in an appeal, and it's why Support has the ability to just say along the lines of 'sorry, that's unfortunate' when something negative affects your account by accident that wastes your time at best and can be catastrophic at worst.

Agreements and guidelines in video games are always set up so that the player is guilty until proven innocent, but if the player was in fact innocent, it can be swept under the rug without consequence for the party administering discipline unless it blows up enough to where the incident negatively affects the PR of the accuser.

 

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Context is supremely important in eulas and similar materials.

Let's look at the context of the bug line again:

It is referring to bugs in the context of cheats, hacks, exploits, and third-party programs.

This is most likely talking about vidoes that showcase "Hey if you do X, Y and Z then it causes a bug that allows you to do this exploit and get tons of resources/arcanes/debt-bonds/whatever!"

DE doesn't want people to post "Here's a bug in this content and how to exploit it for maximum profit!"
Such as if you found a bug that allowed you to instantly finish the fishing minigame in duviri and do it repeatedly, DE would use the EULA to stop you from creating a video that outlines the steps needed to reproduce that bug.
Or a bug that allows you to gain extra decrees in the circuit.
Or something along those lines.

 

They don't care if you post a bug that is either game breaking, or "funny" but doesn't have any actual impact.
They care if you're tryi ng to give out tutorials on how to exploit events.

Such as what happened around some older clan events where some clans figured out "Oh hey, if you limit the hosts FPS to under 1 then the timer bugs out and you can get infinite points, and here's how to do it!"

 

They aren't trying to stop people from talking about bugs in warframe (that is impossible).
They are trying to stop people from making content that is essentially a tutorial on how to exploit the game.

DE are the ones who determine whether something is unintended, not the player. This is worded so that DE has the right to ban a player such as Dystopia on YouTube who is a known player to maximize the way damage works in this game. This isn't an ethical discussion on whether something is wrong or not, it's a legal discussion on whether DE has the authority or not. You can toot the horn DE wants you to hear that this only affects bad actors, but this game has a long history on applying false punishments and then not acknowledging the mistake unless it results in negative PR because it blows up on a social platform.

All OP brought up is one of many examples where DE is tightening up loose ends in their agreement so the player has no loopholes should DE be making a mistake in their justification of an action.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Voltage

[Silligoose]

Thank you @-Krism- and @Voltage. Well said.

[Voltage]

16 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Thank you @-Krism- and @Voltage. Well said.

I just find it silly that there's discussion going back and forth when you should just ignore it if you're common folk. These things are written so that you don't have recourse anyway, so you should just give up and not care to begin with. It's pointless to care when you're on the wrong side of the document to begin with.

I understand someone will interpret my posts here as "not wrong, but rude". However, I think it's more rude and unhelpful to beat around the bush of how it actually works and pretend like that's the best advice.

[-Krism-]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I just find it silly that there's discussion going back and forth when you should just ignore it if you're common folk. These things are written so that you don't have recourse anyway, so you should just give up and not care to begin with. It's pointless to care when you're on the wrong side of the document to begin with.

I understand someone will interpret my posts here as "not wrong, but rude". However, I think it's more rude and unhelpful to beat around the bush of how it actually works and pretend like that's the best advice.

Exactly, but I'm always in for the better of the many & the lone alike, even if it doesn't concern me

This policy is just here to benefit DE, they can't do wrong & if you say otherwise you're punished

 

I always loved DE for their transparency & freedom of speech with us, this is just a huge step backwards

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Thanks for posting this and people actually seeming to care. While I'm sure there is no huge conspiracy going on, the changes are still extremely dodgy and shows DE is just like any other company and isn't this beautiful community centric company some seem to imagine.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

In this thread: A bunch of people that just discovered rich people do rich people things. 

Wait until you guys hear about how all your clothes and electronics come from slavery. 

[Letter13]

Going to go ahead and lock this since it's become clear to me moving forward that the majority of discussion about this topic isn't going to be very constructive.

If DE starts banning people 'til 2035 for making video content that show bugs for the sake of reporting said bugs to DE, feel free to tell me that you told me so (though if said video happens to be published in a way that encourages other users to exploit it, I'm probably going to dismiss that "I told you so" directed my way with prejudice).

No, DE isn't slowly plotting to subvert all of your freedoms. No, DE isn't slowly enacting plans to oppress you. Well, probably not. (Yes, that's last bit was snark.)

You're all better of focusing your energy elsewhere than worrying over this perceived Boogeyman of the week.