Energy siphon is kinda useless

[Hexerin]

11 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Nothing beats the Squad Energy Restore then......

Only the larges, Hardened Wellspring beats out the mediums.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Incorrect usage of that phrase. We're comparing [Energy Regen] to [Energy Regen] here, so the comparisons are direct.

Nope. Apples to oranges is accurate.

The use-mechanics are the at-question here, and comparing the aura (which is intended to be a slow trickle of energy) to "eny other energy generation method" is wantonly disproportionate both in practicality and purpose. 

46 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Nothing beats the Squad Energy Restore then......

Exactly.

"lets compare this thing that instantly gives you 100 energy and can be spammed to fill your energy pool" to "this thing gives small persistent ticks of energy throughout a mission"

Apples to oranges.

[ShogunGunshow]

Apples coming in tiny little slices doesn't suddenly make them oranges.

[Hexerin]

35 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Nope. Apples to oranges is accurate.

The use-mechanics are the at-question here, and comparing the aura (which is intended to be a slow trickle of energy) to "eny other energy generation method" is wantonly disproportionate both in practicality and purpose.

You're simply wrong here, but I'll go ahead and humour you for a sec.

The only rational way to define a "trickle" of regen (which is redundant, if you bothered to learn the simple definitions of the words) is "obtaining continuously over time". You could argue that squad restores (which provide lump sums via timed pulses) are not the same kind of "over time" by their pulse nature. Compare them to Energy Siphon, which is continuously regenerating your energy capacity. Fair argument.

However, there is another thing that provides a continuous regen over time, mechanically identical to Energy Siphon. Wellspring provides 8.(3)x more energy per second than Energy Siphon, or 2.08(3)x more than a full squad with Energy Siphon.

Considering the power level of Zenurik school (only other school that comes close in general content is Unairu, while Madurai beats Zenurik is certain use cases like Eidolon hunting), you aren't really sacrificing anything by running it. On the flip side, by running Energy Siphon, you are giving up any of a dozen other MASSIVELY stronger alternatives. There's no real rational comparison between Energy Siphon and something like Corrosive Projection or Growing Power, Energy Siphon is just outright garbage by comparison.

Also, to nip the inevitable and completely laughable counter argument ya'll love to give: No, MR and easy of acquisition are not valid in a debate about balance. In fact, such arguments are how you end up with rampant power creep (like Warframe has suffered over the years), because "it's the rarest thing ever, so it should be autowin!" is the foundation of such horridly flawed and childish logic.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Hexerin

[Nanika]

de posting aura use percentages challenge 2023 (impossible)

 

energy siphon would still be underpowered at 2/s, nearly every frame that wants to be spamming abilities has at least one built-in or augmented ways to regen, and almost all the others can get by with just the 5/s from zenurik, even without energize. with energize, you're nearly always sitting at full energy and waiting for enemy spawns or moving to the next objective.

basically, the aura slot might as well not exist once you have access to subsumes for gap coverage in your frame's kit, which is usually (efficient/aoe) armor stripping or self healing

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

27 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

There's no real rational comparison between Energy Siphon and something like Corrosive Projection or Growing Power, Energy Siphon is just outright garbage by comparison.

Also, to nip the inevitable and completely laughable counter argument ya'll love to give: No, MR and easy of acquisition are not valid in a debate about balance. In fact, such arguments are how you end up with rampant power creep (like Warframe has suffered over the years), because "it's the rarest thing ever, so it should be autowin!" is the foundation of such horridly flawed and childish logic.

or energy siphon and rejuvenation could, i don't know...         be inbuilt on every warframe so players actually can survive and attack, whilst giving space for "balanced" auras

Though that doesn't sound like an option.

The only other thing that could happen...       ah yes i see, we could buff the garbage to be on level with the autowin balanced auras

I don't know, maybe 1 energy per sec and 5 health per sec

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

1 energy per sec and 5 health per sec

wow look at that a aura mod that gives energy and heath freely

It would sure be a unique change to how new players and casual farmers might play the game that is "played for fun"

[Leqesai]

42 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You're simply wrong here, but I'll go ahead and humour you for a sec.

The only rational way to define a "trickle" of regen (which is redundant, if you bothered to learn the simple definitions of the words) is "obtaining continuously over time". You could argue that squad restores (which provide lump sums via timed pulses) are not the same kind of "over time" by their pulse nature. Compare them to Energy Siphon, which is continuously regenerating your energy capacity. Fair argument.

However, there is another thing that provides a continuous regen over time, mechanically identical to Energy Siphon. Wellspring provides 8.(3)x more energy per second than Energy Siphon, or 2.08(3)x more than a full squad with Energy Siphon.

Considering the power level of Zenurik school (only other school that comes close in general content is Unairu, while Madurai beats Zenurik is certain use cases like Eidolon hunting), you aren't really sacrificing anything by running it. On the flip side, by running Energy Siphon, you are giving up any of a dozen other MASSIVELY stronger alternatives. There's no real rational comparison between Energy Siphon and something like Corrosive Projection or Growing Power, Energy Siphon is just outright garbage by comparison.

Also, to nip the inevitable and completely laughable counter argument ya'll love to give: No, MR and easy of acquisition are not valid in a debate about balance. In fact, such arguments are how you end up with rampant power creep (like Warframe has suffered over the years), because "it's the rarest thing ever, so it should be autowin!" is the foundation of such horridly flawed and childish logic.

That's quite the fantasy land explanation you've written up for yourself there. 

 

How's that for a counter argument. Lol

Apples

Oranges

G'day sir.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Leqesai

[Hexerin]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

or energy siphon and rejuvenation could, i don't know... be inbuilt on every warframe

Would be one way to handle things. Considering how combat in this game works, it wouldn't even require any other balance changes really. Would make the usage percentage of the HP regen archon shard option bottom out to 0% (or near enough) overnight pretty much, though. It's not a stat you need much of, since in normal star chart you only need a small amount to outpace the potential incoming damage and SP star chart kind of just steamrolls you unless you have an insane amount like from Wisp motes.

[Nanika]

6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

That's quite the fantasy land explanation you've written up for yourself there. 

 

How's that for a counter argument. Lol

Apples

Oranges

G'day sir.

energy siphon is only useful in the absence of... arcanes, augments, operator abilties, and consumables.
so basically for new players. the players least likely to have it or access to it.
so it's useless in its entirety, since alerts with item rewards don't exist anymore and they require battlepass interaction now.

[(NSW)Greybones]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

wow look at that a aura mod that gives energy and heath freely

It would sure be a unique change to how new players and casual farmers might play the game that is "played for fun"

I fail to see why you’re stopping at one energy and 5 health, like there’s meant to be an attempt at balance or something.

Right now the game offers item-rewarding scenarios where we have to keep an eye on our health and energy and whatever gameplay comes from juggling the decisions made according to how much of either we have left and how the fight is unfolding, as well as scenarios where we can spam abilities and whatever game-destroying decisions we make according to what flavour of particle colour we want.

Lemme don an alternative perspective to where I’ve been coming from; I reckon we should make our characters invincible, energy cost no longer a consideration, instant-death AoE the default, and pure grind itself for things that are unused the only source of accomplishment or entertainment

Edited August 17, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Leqesai]

21 minutes ago, Nanika said:

energy siphon is only useful in the absence of... arcanes, augments, operator abilties, and consumables.
so basically for new players. the players least likely to have it or access to it.
so it's useless in its entirety, since alerts with item rewards don't exist anymore and they require battlepass interaction now.

I'm not sure "for new players" means "useless in its entirety"

I mean, even if you're right. A thing that has value to some of the playerbase has value. 
Having said that, I still use Energy Siphon fairly often if I don't need another aura. Sure it isn't a lot of energy, but that trickle over the course of a mission does help. I typically do survival missions and that 0.6/s translates to an extra 720 energy. That's nice. Of course it doesn't please the power-hungry but it is nice :)

[Tiltskillet]

I'd propose making Energy Siphon's 0.6 regen built-in to frames by default, and adding an additional (but weak) Nourish type Energy source boost effect to the aura.  Maybe 1.2x?    That would mean 1.44s energy regen for one aura, plus orbs, Adrenaline, Wellspring, etc. would be 20% more effective.

Maybe that percentage is too strong in the case of multiple auras, especially later in the game.  It could be reduced, or maybe just apply to orbs.

 

[PsiWarp]

Buff it~

0.75 energy per second

+0.25 energy per second from each player in combat

So a solo player that engages in combat often gets 1 energy/sec. In a team, when everyone is fighting and if all equipped with Energy Siphon, you get a team-wide 4 energy/sec.

[Nanika]

51 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm not sure "for new players" means "useless in its entirety"

I mean, even if you're right. A thing that has value to some of the playerbase has value. 
Having said that, I still use Energy Siphon fairly often if I don't need another aura. Sure it isn't a lot of energy, but that trickle over the course of a mission does help. I typically do survival missions and that 0.6/s translates to an extra 720 energy. That's nice. Of course it doesn't please the power-hungry but it is nice :)

it's legitimately useless to new players since it doesn't come from alerts anymore, instead on a weekly rotation from battlepass offerings.
would you, as a new player, waste nightwatch creds on an aura that's one of the worst options to have, or would you use it on potatoes?
thought so.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'd propose making Energy Siphon's 0.6 regen built-in to frames by default, and adding an additional (but weak) Nourish type Energy source boost effect to the aura.  Maybe 1.2x?    That would mean 1.44s energy regen for one aura, plus orbs, Adrenaline, Wellspring, etc. would be 20% more effective.

Maybe that percentage is too strong in the case of multiple auras, especially later in the game.  It could be reduced, or maybe just apply to orbs.

 

Agreed.
These are the kinds of things that I had hoped would be built into the MR system when they started fleshing it out but it never appeared.

Just some small little buffs to increase value to the MR system would have been nifty besides daily trades. 

 

[Joezone619]

The idea behind it oh so long ago was "what if the entire squad has it since it'll be the most popular aura?" Nowadays, its become outdated and never fixed. I would increase it to 1.5/s so that at 4 people it becomes 6/s, which is respectable if all 4 people are gonna dedicate their aura slots to it. Although that is without coaction drift which i am not bothering to calculate, probably something like 8-10/s at most.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Joezone619

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

These are the kinds of things that I had hoped would be built into the MR system when they started fleshing it out but it never appeared.

That's an interesting idea, but energy regen is something I'd want people to get immediately.

[(NSW)jhj82]

It has it's uses. I use it on my Archon Rev build since I use madurai. By the time phase 2 comes along my energy is fine as I only need to cast 2 once and (roar) once

[quxier]

On 2023-08-15 at 4:25 PM, chaotea said:

True that its from a time when energy restore sources were limited to energy vampire and orbs. Though 2 might be too much with 4 players (8 per second). Maybe 1per second = 4per second with full squad.

Or just... not stack it? Or pick the highest (if players use not full mod)?

[Tiltskillet]

Side-topic, but I've long wished that aura bonuses were stronger at baseline, but multiple instances had diminishing returns.  Encouraging people to bring different auras feels more interesting to me than encouraging duplication.  

Plus it addresses the concerns about "If we make X effect feel impactful for one player, it gets too crazy when multiplied by 4 and Coaction Drift."

[CatboyPrincess]

58 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Side-topic, but I've long wished that aura bonuses were stronger at baseline, but multiple instances had diminishing returns.  Encouraging people to bring different auras feels more interesting to me than encouraging duplication.  

Plus it addresses the concerns about "If we make X effect feel impactful for one player, it gets too crazy when multiplied by 4 and Coaction Drift."

A relatively simple solution would be to add a personal-only energy regen component.

My balance-considerate ideal for Energy Siphon would be:

+0.8 energy/s for all squadmates

+0.2 energy/s for self

A squad with 4x Energy Siphon would each have 3.4 e/s each. A solo player would have 1 e/s. I think that's not too strong nor too weak. It makes for a clearly strong option for newer players. I'm definitely on the side of "most energy options are too powerful" -- quite frankly, Nourish's base multiplier is way too high. In fact, I think its current rank 1 multiplier (1.5x) should be its rank 4 (currently 2.0x), scaling as such: 1.2/1.3/1.4/1.5. Nourish does way too many things to justify a max rank multiplier of 2.0x.

Also, wrt apples to oranges: it's just apples to apples. Every energy source in the game can be simplified to one number: energy over time. Almost every other energy source in the game has higher energy over time. On top of that, some of the most popular (Equillibrium, Arcane Energize) also have the benefit of working even during channelling abilities. Even a rank 0 Arcane Energize provides 0.4 e/s (this value is taking into consideration its proc rate) more than Energy Siphon, is team-wide, works for channelling abilities, and is nearly as reliable given that Eximus units both reliably spawn and reliably give energy orbs.

At least Arcane Energize can justify its power level due to its mid-to-late-game progression positioning.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

12 hours ago, Nanika said:

it's legitimately useless to new players since it doesn't come from alerts anymore, instead on a weekly rotation from battlepass offerings.
would you, as a new player, waste nightwatch creds on an aura that's one of the worst options to have, or would you use it on potatoes?
thought so.

It's just 20 credits and you get 150 at level 1 anyway, it's very useful early on when you don't have many energy regeneration sources and just rely on enemies potentially dropping energy orbs.

Also it's not one of the worst auras, we have plenty of stinkers and energy siphon is definitely not one of them even if it becomes less useful the more you progress through the game.

Edited August 17, 2023 by (XBOX)C11H22O11

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Also it's not one of the worst auras, we have plenty of stinkers and energy siphon is definitely not one of them

I'd agree there are worse.  EMP Aura, Infested Impedance, Shield Disruption, all the amps, It would be interesting to see usage charts for auras.  I'd guess 20% of them account for 80% of usage.

[Hexerin]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Also it's not one of the worst auras, we have plenty of stinkers and energy siphon is definitely not one of them even if it becomes less useful the more you progress through the game.

"These other examples are terrible, so this is fine by comparison" is not how that works. Energy Siphon is horrid, and an absolute example of a "noob trap". There's a couple frames that can technically make use of it, since they literally don't care what's in the aura slot, but those are exceptions to the rule.