PSA PSA: Heirloom Collection Platinum Changes & Lessons

[Cerikus]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Your second and third points are what feed into this situation though.

That'd be a fair point, if I didn't find plenty of time to be in this thread and provide feedback. When I am unhappy, I come and say my piece, but I refuse to doom and gloom 24/7.

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This is a new low that most older players didn't think DE could or would stoop to.

Unfortunately, I fail to see how it's a new low. It's bad, but I feel it's quite consistent with how DE were doing things for years. There has been plenty of time-limted fomo things in the game. There has been plenty of overpriced nonsense. There has been plenty of bundles and collections that prayed on fomo. There has been plenty of bundles and collections that give you unique thing if you waste enough plat/money.

This game literally lives on time limited fomo overpriced cosmetics in Prime Access. And resurgence is not an argument. How many years will it take for let's say Hildryn prime accessories to appear in resurgence? And we both know how DE completely ignored community, when prime accessories pack didn't exist. And it had to be Jim Sterling that made a big deal about it, which finally forced DE to do something. ONLY because it was a bad PR. They are still the same, they never changed.

That's why 

15 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This is disingenuous and misrepresentative of how actual discussion is going on here.

my comment was not disingenuous. It's disingeneuous to act like they crossed a line they never crossed before or that they sunk too low. It's good that we are outraged and angry and that we complain, but please, let's not pretend like Heirloom packs are something new.

[PublikDomain]

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Good points. I really wonder if the Unity fiasco was due to greed or just stupidity, because it seems like the latter. Afaik the biggest issue was that the small devs would be hit hard and unreasonably, which is something that they could've easily overlooked.

Given their CEO... I really don't know if I can apply Hanlon's Razor. News has been coming out from Unity employees saying  it came out of nowhere, they didn't like it, and argued strongly against it. Some resigned over it. It was very much a top-down decision that was pushed through with little regard for smaller end users.

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Same goes for DE I think. They often miss obvious issues and overlook serious problems IN GAME that can be predicted easily in advance. How often we get a message: "well we didn't know this new ability can do this, even though it's obvious, so we have to nerf it". I wouldn't be surprised if Heirloom packs were just someone not thinking long enough, just like Regal Aya. But I am of course not denying the possibility that it's just greed and a bad attempt to test the waters.

In this case I would like to think DE just didn't think it'd be a big deal and that the machine is just sluggish and doesn't want to move if it can just ignore it. They misread the room, like they do all the time, and would rather continue working on whatever the next new shiny is than go back and fix a mistake. Sound familiar? But that's also why I think it's so important that they correct their mistakes this time, not just next time maybe we promise wink wink. If they're going to talk about the "lessons" they've learned then they ought to be following them, not making excuses for why they don't want to.

Edited September 26, 2023 by PublikDomain

[Cerikus]

49 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Given their CEO... I really don't know if I can apply Hanlon's Razor. News has been coming out from Unity employees saying  it came out of nowhere, they didn't like it, and argued strongly against it. Some resigned over it. It was very much a top-down decision that was pushed through with little regard for smaller end users.

Sure. That's true. The question is wheter the management was really aware of what they are doing. I am not saying they were not trying to make money, but I am not sure, wheter they actually wanted the system to be soooo bad. Because the current proposition seems like it will make a lot of money for them and it is reasonable, while the previous proposition was just horrible. 

There is actually this funny story I wanna tell, but you can skip it, if you don't want to read it.

Spoiler

I loved this one restaurant, because they had a very good beer and amazing chipotle burgers. The price was fair and the food was delicious. Me and my friends went there from time to time for a dinner and a couple of beers. One day a new young manager took over. She didn't want to change the food, but she wanted to make the restaurant sexy and modern. She knew that they have a lot of customers, so she decided to increase the prices slightly, so the restaurant looked more like an A tier fine dining, but it wasn't. On top of that she came up with such ideas as flat stone slabs instead of normal plates, because it's sexy and modern. The most laugable decision was to put our favorite burgers on a wooden grate instead of a plate. Under this new management we were there once and for the last time. We ordered our burgers and immediately after biting into our food the meat juice and souce leaked through the wooden grate onto the tables and into our laps. We were annoyed. We asked the staff for normal plates and they laughed, because we weren't the first ones. We asked what's going on and they explained. They said they've spoken to the manager about it, but she doesn't care. She thinks this is how you do good restaurant. They begged us to sent a complaint or write a review, because the manager won't listen to reason. The food was still good, because the kitched staff didn't change, but the experience was ruined and then we noticed the price was increased without a good reason. The business lost a lot of customers including us and closed soon after. The reason was not greed or malice, but simple stupidity.

I am not saying this is what happened with Unity, but it's just something it reminded me of. I feel like the higher-ups simply didn't know they are stupid and that their plan is stupid. You can be greedy and want to make money a do it in a way that people will gladly give you money, but you have to be smart.

49 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But that's also why I think it's so important that they correct their mistakes this time, not just next time maybe we promise wink wink. If they're going to talk about the "lessons" they've learned then they ought to be following them, not making excuses for why they don't want to.

Yeah. Not going to happen unfortunately. DE sadly has that weird philosophy of "never take anything away from players". That's why Hema and Sibear is still nonsense. That's why the game is bloated with hundreds of nonsense mods and items that shouldn't exist, etc. "What if there is one person that would be sad, if we lowered build requirements, or removed Diamond skin mod... OR if we removed the timelimitation of the packs... I consider this philosophy stupid. They don't want to fix it now, because they fear they would insult whales who bought it solely because it's timelimited premium shiny. And there are people who are stupid who think owning something like that has some kind of actual value. And DE unfortunately cater to those people. 

For me the heirloom pack drama is done. They said what they said, I get why they won't do anyting, I disagree with the approach and I don't care anymore. If they lied and will repeat this again, they can be sure we will quote this thread.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Cerikus

[PublikDomain]

40 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Yeah. Not going to happen unfortunately. DE sadly has that weird philosophy of "never take anything away from players".

And yet:

• Then-exclusive Lato and Braton Vandal via ESO
• Then-exclusive Ignis Wraith research just given out to all clans
• Then-exclusive Prime Access Accessories via Prime Vault
• Then-exclusive Twitch Prime cosmetics via Varzia
• Then-exclusive Primed Chamber via Baro
• Etc.

They "never take anything away from players" - until they do which happens all the time. Everything is exclusive until it isn't. And yeah there are S#&$ty dinosaurs like Hema and Sibear that still remain, but they're just that: S#&$ty dinosaurs everyone would benefit from having changed.

58 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

The question is wheter the management was really aware of what they are doing.

Well again, they were told what they were doing by their employees - and ignored them and pushed it through anyways.

And you're more than welcome to exit these threads if you think the drama is done. We can keep carrying this bag, like I said before it's nbd.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

If anyone is unhappy with warframe and DE for handling this situation so poorly then I suggest boycotting platinum and market purchases untill it is truly rectified (not bandaided with additional platinum) and give your patronage to other game developers by buying a game that is actually worth 60 to 90 dollars like balders gate 3, starfeald, Spiderman, ect.... 

Or what till new games come out like the new free to play game first descendant I played the open beta and had fun it still has some bit to go but it is fun non the less  

 

[Cerikus]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And yet:

• Then-exclusive Lato and Braton Vandal via ESO
• Then-exclusive Ignis Wraith research just given out to all clans
• Then-exclusive Prime Access Accessories via Prime Vault
• Then-exclusive Twitch Prime cosmetics via Varzia
• Then-exclusive Primed Chamber via Baro

Yeah, true, but except for the PA accessories none of this is content that was obtained with money. When they talk about not taking from players they mean not devalue player time investment. Afaik it's very difficult to push them to make changes that would do that. But bringing back event exclusive items doesn't really fit the description.

It's 100% true about the PA, but it took a huge PR debacle to force them to change it.

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well again, they were told what they were doing by their employees - and ignored them and pushed it through anyways.

Yeah, and higher-ups usually think their employes are less inteligent then them and don't even think about it. Employe comes and says: "We cannot do that, it will bankrupt small developers" and the response is: "Yeah, sure, as if you know what you are talking about, haha." -> Stupidity.

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And you're more than welcome to exit these threads if you think the drama is done. We can keep carrying this bag, like I said before it's nbd.

Well drama in this thread is definitely not done and since drama is my trade I'd like to stay. :P What I meant is that DE are done. They said and done what they were willing, so we can discuss further, which can be useful, but I am not expecting anything to come out of it.

[Circle_of_Psi]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

If anyone is unhappy with warframe and DE for handling this situation so poorly then I suggest boycotting platinum and market purchases untill it is truly rectified

If only everyone did this, there would still them "those" who won't

[(PSN)SABRETOOTH1971]

What happens when DE eventually turns off the lights for warframe? You going to have a break down. Getting agitated over pixels is stupid.

[Voltage]

45 minutes ago, (PSN)SABRETOOTH1971 said:

What happens when DE eventually turns off the lights for warframe? You going to have a break down. Getting agitated over pixels is stupid.

It's very easy to write off something else that someone is passionate about. People get upset when something they are passionate about goes in a direction they don't agree with. It doesn't matter whether it's a game, politics, or the release of a new GPU. 

[MirageKnight]

It’s more than just pixels.

It would more accurate to say that we are frustrated by how we’re being treated at present and how DE has reacted to valid criticism of its offerings and handling of the situation.

We’re used to being treated better and more fairly. After several years, that appears to be changing. Its natural for people to be upset when they perceive something as being unfair.

If the lights for Warframe go off, we’ll shrug, lament the passing of a good game, and try to find something that’ll scratch the same itch.

If the game folds as a result of large numbers of players leaving due to feeling being treated poorly by the devs / publisher, then that’s the fault of the people that failed to listen to and treat its player base right.

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (PSN)SABRETOOTH1971 said:

What happens when DE eventually turns off the lights for warframe? You going to have a break down. Getting agitated over pixels is stupid.

Some may argue DE is currently using warframe as a test environment for other games (Duviri - Soulframe being the most notable example).

Do you really think they'd kill their own golden eggs chicken just like that? I'm sure it will happen some day, but will happen once they've made enough decisions to alienate the playerbase and the game isn't financially viable anymore and the company has an acceptable replacement for it already moving on its own.

[Anmorata_Armitage]

On 2023-09-24 at 7:01 AM, (XBOX)LadyWinterstorm said:

They probably will. Like the the Rifle Riven in the Luna renewal pack, that when opened turned into a Kitgun riven. They called it a bug and that was the last thing they said about it. I haven't purchased a Luna pack with rivens in since.

Im never letting go of this.  I quit Blizzard games because of their tonedeaf response to the Blitzchung incident.  The sexual assault allegations, lies and egregious predatory monetization.

I quit League because of the sexual assault allegations and predatory monetization.   And Ill quit Warframe too if this is the road they wanna take.  To steal a line from Cpt Picard. The line must be drawn here, and no further.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

53 minutes ago, Anmorata_Armitage said:

Im never letting go of this.  I quit Blizzard games because of their tonedeaf response to the Blitzchung incident.  The sexual assault allegations, lies and egregious predatory monetization.

I quit League because of the sexual assault allegations and predatory monetization.   And Ill quit Warframe too if this is the road they wanna take.  To steal a line from Cpt Picard. The line must be drawn here, and no further.

Commendable I respect that.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

1 hour ago, Anmorata_Armitage said:

Im never letting go of this.  I quit Blizzard games because of their tonedeaf response to the Blitzchung incident.  The sexual assault allegations, lies and egregious predatory monetization.

I quit League because of the sexual assault allegations and predatory monetization.   And Ill quit Warframe too if this is the road they wanna take.  To steal a line from Cpt Picard. The line must be drawn here, and no further.

We should all draw those lines that developers, marketing teams and higher ups should not cross hurting and forgetting there loyal fans is one of those lined they shouldn't cross  

We were with them for years of not knowing if warframe would make it and they forget about us so easily there are those loyal fans who can't afford the packs or the ones that dont want the filler yet the only thing they thought of was money when making sead packs not the fans 

 

[PublikDomain]

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Yeah, true, but except for the PA accessories none of this is content that was obtained with money.

Twitch Prime content could only be obtained with money. Not that it matters, money or not exclusivity has never really mattered and has been changed all the time. There's no reason it has to be different here.

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

When they talk about not taking from players they mean not devalue player time investment.

What's that got to do with Heirloom packs?

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

It's 100% true about the PA, but it took a huge PR debacle to force them to change it.

That's just the separate accessories packs. I meant the accessories in general. Early Primes like Frost Prime and Ember Prime came before there was a Prime Unvaulting was a thing, and their cosmetics were sold as exclusive the same way that Heirloom cosmetics are sold as exclusive. You can go back and look at their news posts about them. Yet DE went back on that exclusivity and brought back PA accessories in the first Unvaultings - because that exclusivity has never actually mattered.

12 hours ago, Cerikus said:

What I meant is that DE are done. They said and done what they were willing, so we can discuss further, which can be useful, but I am not expecting anything to come out of it.

Which is what they said with Prime Resurgence lol. "No, we've made up our minds, we'll think about it next time, it won't change". And then it changed. Something came out of it.

[----Legacy----]

14 hours ago, Cerikus said:

When they talk about not taking from players they mean not devalue player time investment.

Which is quite funny when the 10 years supporter accolade is locked behind a cosmetics bundle and many long time players can miss out on it despite how much money they may have thrown at DE through the years; but -hypothetically- someone who starts playing on Dec 31st, buys the bundle and never touches the game again will have the 10 years supporter accolade it in their profile nonetheless.

That's a clear sign of what DE values now.

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

That's a clear sign of what DE values now.

Arguably not players that have actively supported Warframe since 2013…

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Arguably not players that have actively supported Warframe since 2013…

Sadly the only thing they realy care about is money these days and not those people that have been with  them from the start or have supported them for years even though they didn't half to but they did so because they truly loved playing the game 

 

 

[Slayer-.]

 

17 hours ago, (PSN)SABRETOOTH1971 said:

What happens when DE eventually turns off the lights for warframe? You going to have a break down. Getting agitated over pixels is stupid.

[Circle_of_Psi]

18 hours ago, (PSN)SABRETOOTH1971 said:

What happens when DE eventually turns off the lights for warframe?

This ^

(Does that answer your question?)

[Voltage]

13 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Which is quite funny when the 10 years supporter accolade is locked behind a cosmetics bundle and many long time players can miss out on it despite how much money they may have thrown at DE through the years; but -hypothetically- someone who starts playing on Dec 31st, buys the bundle and never touches the game again will have the 10 years supporter accolade it in their profile nonetheless.

That's a clear sign of what DE values now.

That's because this "feedback discussion" is a one way assertion, not a two way conversation. Really sad.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Voltage

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

That's because this "feedback discussion" is a one way assertion, not a two way conversation. Really sad.

For a company that started in the edge of bankruptcy with a game which no publisher wanted to fund so ended up appealing to crowdfunding (Founders program) and later used open communication along listening player feedback as pillars of the reputation that took them where they are today...

Yeah, that's really sad indeed.

[(PSN)rexis12]

32 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

For a company that started in the edge of bankruptcy with a game which no publisher wanted to fund so ended up appealing to crowdfunding (Founders program) and later used open communication along listening player feedback as pillars of the reputation that took them where they are today...

Yeah, that's really sad indeed.

Remember, they tried to do that again when Reb took over with one discussions with 'Hot Topics' but bailed when the 'Open Communication' wasn't just blind praise.

I still find it funny how all it took was like a small community request for Styanax to have his nerfs rolled back, and then open communication just ceased entirely.

[Anmorata_Armitage]

On 2023-09-26 at 2:09 PM, (PSN)SABRETOOTH1971 said:

What happens when DE eventually turns off the lights for warframe? You going to have a break down. Getting agitated over pixels is stupid.

I have a solution for this as well.   Any game that has taken money from a playerbase and who is no longer able or willing to support said game.  Should make said game avaliable to the fan community to keep alive.  Just like the cost and scarcity issue the access issue is one that need not be a problem.  It is an artificial construct.  Yes people have to get paid but Reb was in Forbes 30 under 30 quite awhile ago.  And they have their own con and are buying rights to NIN tracks.  I think the company is doing just fine as are its devs and csrs. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

19 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

For a company that started in the edge of bankruptcy with a game which no publisher wanted to fund so ended up appealing to crowdfunding (Founders program) and later used open communication along listening player feedback as pillars of the reputation that took them where they are today...

Yeah, that's really sad indeed.

People forget or don't understand what it means to be a Tencent holding company (myself included, i forgot it). With almost 3 years of profits after buying Leyou, I'm not sure if Tencent has recovered the 1.5 billion dollar investment when they buy Leyou.

They have not been part of what DE has done for the last 10 years, rather I don't think they care in the first place and simply want to make money with the game they own and that's it. If they bought leyou was to make money in the first place, it´s a fuk*ng sh*t? Yes, but that's how it is, no one spends that much money without expecting more profits than the investment. We already knew this since 2020 when the purchase was closed.

I'm not defending Tencent, I'm just giving logical facts.

As I said, I will continue playing as long as the game entertains me but my vision for the future of Warframe is not good.

 

16 hours ago, Anmorata_Armitage said:

I have a solution for this as well.   Any game that has taken money from a playerbase and who is no longer able or willing to support said game.  Should make said game avaliable to the fan community to keep alive.  Just like the cost and scarcity issue the access issue is one that need not be a problem.  It is an artificial construct.  Yes people have to get paid but Reb was in Forbes 30 under 30 quite awhile ago.  And they have their own con and are buying rights to NIN tracks.  I think the company is doing just fine as are its devs and csrs. 

Tencent is not going to give us anything. They preferred to sell everything before giving it to someone, that is communism my friend.

Edited September 27, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG
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