Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework

[Lancars]

1 hour ago, (PSN)aarott said:

Very much this. It's like Pablo had a checklist that said 'stuff a modern warframe needs', with 'defensive ability', 'offensive amp', & 'armour strip' on it. But then he gave up and just made it one ability in Plunder. 

 

See, he could direct the RNG on his tentacles with Undertow, but that's being taken away.

He made plunder because his mindset is brain dead button clicking. I'm going to be harsh about this because they wanna appeal to the new players who have a low attention span and need "press4win" buttons and not think. This is a filthy change to hydroid but all the new players aren't going to agree with me which some have which in turn proves my point they want no think button mash gameplay.

Don't get me wrong there has been many frames that needed changes for the better. Like when Excal's jump was remove and replaced it was the best change for him. But hydroid? His kit was fine and had versatility. Now due to the "armor strip" mindrot that has set in with the team they want to homogenize gameplay. Now i can't trust them moving forward with any more changes because they will just decrease playstyles from now on to low standards for retention. They now sit in their ivory tower pleasing the investors. They only need wallets playing.

[ShogunGunshow]

Hydroid's kit was very much not fine, and it's not from a lack of brainpower that people didn't play him. Even played optimally, he was suboptimal for... 99.9% of content. But anyway.

I'm not thrilled either that almost every frame has to deal with the fact that all but three or four statuses suck big, and that armor removal almost has to be a thing because we're reaching a point in scaling where removing armor multiplies relative damage by twenty times, but it's just the reality of modern Warframe because DE doesn't seem willing (or able) to address the underlying issues, and keeps leaning into them more with each update. Why does Grendel, all about stomach acid, have viral? Why does Hydroid's new augment? What happens to all these abilities that don't fit thematically, and only exist to satisfy this deeply unsatisfying meta, if statuses were to ever be reworked and viral was somehow not nearly as good?

Sadly, based on the arcanes that have been released where DE has tried to make people take things like elec and cold (and have largely failed because the numbers just aren't there because I guess nobody in the design team has heard of the term 'opportunity cost'), I don't think that these problems are ever getting fixed, just band-aided.

[bangarang35]

10 hours ago, Lancars said:

He made plunder because his mindset is brain dead button clicking. I'm going to be harsh about this because they wanna appeal to the new players who have a low attention span and need "press4win" buttons and not think. This is a filthy change to hydroid but all the new players aren't going to agree with me which some have which in turn proves my point they want no think button mash gameplay.

Don't get me wrong there has been many frames that needed changes for the better. Like when Excal's jump was remove and replaced it was the best change for him. But hydroid? His kit was fine and had versatility. Now due to the "armor strip" mindrot that has set in with the team they want to homogenize gameplay. Now i can't trust them moving forward with any more changes because they will just decrease playstyles from now on to low standards for retention. They now sit in their ivory tower pleasing the investors. They only need wallets playing.

@[DE]Juice

Gonna gauge each of Hydroid ability's pre and post rework and will elaborate on how effective he is at still performing his current kits roles which is dmg, survivability, crowd control, and utility via stealth.

So if I were to gauge his kit in each of those current categories on a scale of 0 to 3 then he'd be in this ballpark: Survivability-3, dmg-1, crowd control-2, utility-1

Hydroid's new proposed kit probably puts him in this ballpark though: Survivability-2, Dmg-2, Crowd Control-3, debuff-2

So his survivability goes down since that armor buff is weaker than current undertow.

Dmg likely goes up because of his Plunder's buff. He's losing undertow's ability dmg buff but this may be able to effectively replace it. Plus, all the corrosive dmg will give him a boost in this category too.

Crowd Control goes up since the ragdoll mechanic is being traded out thankfully on most of his abilities and his 4 can grab any enemy in the range of the ability's AoE. 

Utility category is gone now though from his kit since his only utility was stealth via Undertow. So he instead now has debuffing which introduces a new category to his role.

 

There are improvements in this rework which is why I continually say he's at least B-tier now after this. He did genuinely go down in some of his fields of expertise and some were even eliminated, granted some of his categories did go up too.

 

However, I am curious about why they chose to go in the direction of making Hydroid a debuffing frame. He doesn't have that anywhere in his current base kit. Honestly, I never thought that this would be the direction they take him. I guess the obvious answer that many players requested to fix his Tempest Barrage, which was add the augment into the base kit, was decided to be a good idea and then perhaps they just ran with the corrosive idea from there. Again, I think plunder is effective, but it does feel a bit foreign to classic Hydroid since it's a debuff too. Is this really staying true to the role of the frame by venturing into the territory of debuffing? Again, I recognize plunder is effective. The corrosive dmg could reasonably be seen as part of his theme but that's still a noticeable step outside of his current role. If his role changes then his playstyle will be forced to change too. 

 

I say all of that though because I understand the concern of every warframe just starting to feel the same. Warframes must be unique. If they're not then their isn't a point to having different warframes. For example, I don't like Voruna because I see her as just so generic IMO. She doesn't do anything new really or super unique. She doesn't even lean too heavily on the wolf theme in her abilities. So, it's concerning to see more unique abilities starting to change especially when in this instance removing Undertow brings in a new category/playstyle to Hydroid that is becoming increasingly common in the game, i.e. Armor strip. Again, it might fit his theme, but it is undeniably a shift in his current role. I believe we have to stay true to a warframes role and theme at the same time. So reworks need to make a warframe more fun, unique, and effective while still staying in the boundaries of the frames theme and role. Hydroid does lose a part of himself. His role changes a bit too.

 

I don't think that's really fair to the true fans of Hydroid. They play this frame because they enjoy his current role and theme. This rework does change that though to some degree. Wukong's theme and role didn't really change. The numbers in his categories fluctuated, and he became universally better. However, his theme and role were still preserved and he became more fun, unique, and effective. Wukong's the perfect example of how you can have it all in a rework.

 

I feel like what we're seeing in this rework right now is not to the same quality of rework as Wukong, granted I acknowledge it's an improvement still. I just don't want any rework to miss a golden opportunity. Push for excellence DE. Please don't take the easy way out guys. If I had your coding skills I would do it myself for $1.00 lol. 

 

I also recommend taking a rework slowly. Perhaps go through phases. For example, come out with draft of a reworks concept design. Post a thread on it and let the players give you feedback for like a week or two. Then, make your changes accordingly. Do this a few times until you start to see a strong average amount of players give it at least an 8 of 10 in terms of the reworks overall quality. I would be willing to spend tens if not over 100 hours refining the perfect rework for any given frame while maintaining direct collaboration with DE. I'd do it for free or super cheap lol. I already did it with reworks for Inaros and Hydroid.

 

At the core, this is a business relationship. As the service provider, listening to customer feedback is crucial in improving the quality of your product/service. You have to satisfy the customer. In this case, the customer is genuinely the Hydroid mains out there since they're the ones who use that part of the service. If only a small group of people use a certain aspect of your service and that aspecct is what keep them coming back, then you have to maintain the integrity of that aspect and build upon it. Like I said before, I'm watching this rework because it will show the mentality of DE and their approach to all future reworks. I do it all to help the sandman and get him the rework he deserves in order to reach his full potential of awesomeness lol. Push for excellence DE!!!

 

#SaveUndertow

#ReworkInaros

 

We just gotta keep giving good feedback. Even after some of the recent reworks and new frame releases, DE still made some changes based on player feedback. So let's see what state Hydroid is in around the end of the month.

Edited October 7, 2023 by bangarang35

[Udoshi]

Feature Request for Hydroid:
Instead of removing Undertow, add it to 'hold to cast' on tidal surge.
Make tentacles duo-type damage (ie magnetic and slash) so its not one sided or wierd and you can use it in all content.
Make Pilfering Swarm unique and pirate like by checking BOTH 'on death' at its current value and 'petrify' loot types, so hydroid has some relevance. 
Add 'hold to cast' functionality to his 4 (ie, like celestial twin's hold to stomp augment) that makes tendrils surge/swell and reach out to gather enemies (like khora's ensnare or mags pull or exodia hunt and add time to the ability). IE, you still have to actively play and cast powers, but his loot trap can pull enemies in - just like khora.

With his new passive, tentacles should probably have a bonus chance to proc corossive status on hit, ie, like wyrmling's aid

[(NSW)Yeyeg]

#listenandsavethegoddamnpuddle

[(PSN)rexis12]

On 2023-10-07 at 9:14 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

Sadly, based on the arcanes that have been released where DE has tried to make people take things like elec and cold

The sad thing is, Cold could have LEGITIMATELY made a massive comeback if it was a Multiplicative 50%, massively increasing the damage while allowing for cool combos like how Gas deals more damage with CRIT or just damage in general with Corrosive.

But no, its a flat 50% or just an extra .5 CRIT damage which is nothing in any build that already has CRIT damage, or in a weapon that spits outs status like crazy.

[Lancars]

On 2023-10-06 at 10:00 PM, bangarang35 said:

@[DE]Juice

Gonna gauge each of Hydroid ability's pre and post rework and will elaborate on how effective he is at still performing his current kits roles which is dmg, survivability, crowd control, and utility via stealth.

So if I were to gauge his kit in each of those current categories on a scale of 0 to 3 then he'd be in this ballpark: Survivability-3, dmg-1, crowd control-2, utility-1

Hydroid's new proposed kit probably puts him in this ballpark though: Survivability-2, Dmg-2, Crowd Control-3, debuff-2

So his survivability goes down since that armor buff is weaker than current undertow.

Dmg likely goes up because of his Plunder's buff. He's losing undertow's ability dmg buff but this may be able to effectively replace it. Plus, all the corrosive dmg will give him a boost in this category too.

Crowd Control goes up since the ragdoll mechanic is being traded out thankfully on most of his abilities and his 4 can grab any enemy in the range of the ability's AoE. 

Utility category is gone now though from his kit since his only utility was stealth via Undertow. So he instead now has debuffing which introduces a new category to his role.

 

There are improvements in this rework which is why I continually say he's at least B-tier now after this. He did genuinely go down in some of his fields of expertise and some were even eliminated, granted some of his categories did go up too.

 

However, I am curious about why they chose to go in the direction of making Hydroid a debuffing frame. He doesn't have that anywhere in his current base kit. Honestly, I never thought that this would be the direction they take him. I guess the obvious answer that many players requested to fix his Tempest Barrage, which was add the augment into the base kit, was decided to be a good idea and then perhaps they just ran with the corrosive idea from there. Again, I think plunder is effective, but it does feel a bit foreign to classic Hydroid since it's a debuff too. Is this really staying true to the role of the frame by venturing into the territory of debuffing? Again, I recognize plunder is effective. The corrosive dmg could reasonably be seen as part of his theme but that's still a noticeable step outside of his current role. If his role changes then his playstyle will be forced to change too. 

 

I say all of that though because I understand the concern of every warframe just starting to feel the same. Warframes must be unique. If they're not then their isn't a point to having different warframes. For example, I don't like Voruna because I see her as just so generic IMO. She doesn't do anything new really or super unique. She doesn't even lean too heavily on the wolf theme in her abilities. So, it's concerning to see more unique abilities starting to change especially when in this instance removing Undertow brings in a new category/playstyle to Hydroid that is becoming increasingly common in the game, i.e. Armor strip. Again, it might fit his theme, but it is undeniably a shift in his current role. I believe we have to stay true to a warframes role and theme at the same time. So reworks need to make a warframe more fun, unique, and effective while still staying in the boundaries of the frames theme and role. Hydroid does lose a part of himself. His role changes a bit too.

 

I don't think that's really fair to the true fans of Hydroid. They play this frame because they enjoy his current role and theme. This rework does change that though to some degree. Wukong's theme and role didn't really change. The numbers in his categories fluctuated, and he became universally better. However, his theme and role were still preserved and he became more fun, unique, and effective. Wukong's the perfect example of how you can have it all in a rework.

 

I feel like what we're seeing in this rework right now is not to the same quality of rework as Wukong, granted I acknowledge it's an improvement still. I just don't want any rework to miss a golden opportunity. Push for excellence DE. Please don't take the easy way out guys. If I had your coding skills I would do it myself for $1.00 lol. 

 

I also recommend taking a rework slowly. Perhaps go through phases. For example, come out with draft of a reworks concept design. Post a thread on it and let the players give you feedback for like a week or two. Then, make your changes accordingly. Do this a few times until you start to see a strong average amount of players give it at least an 8 of 10 in terms of the reworks overall quality. I would be willing to spend tens if not over 100 hours refining the perfect rework for any given frame while maintaining direct collaboration with DE. I'd do it for free or super cheap lol. I already did it with reworks for Inaros and Hydroid.

 

At the core, this is a business relationship. As the service provider, listening to customer feedback is crucial in improving the quality of your product/service. You have to satisfy the customer. In this case, the customer is genuinely the Hydroid mains out there since they're the ones who use that part of the service. If only a small group of people use a certain aspect of your service and that aspecct is what keep them coming back, then you have to maintain the integrity of that aspect and build upon it. Like I said before, I'm watching this rework because it will show the mentality of DE and their approach to all future reworks. I do it all to help the sandman and get him the rework he deserves in order to reach his full potential of awesomeness lol. Push for excellence DE!!!

 

#SaveUndertow

#ReworkInaros

 

We just gotta keep giving good feedback. Even after some of the recent reworks and new frame releases, DE still made some changes based on player feedback. So let's see what state Hydroid is in around the end of the month.

I agree that feedback still needs to be given but it feels useless. I'm gonna keep doing it because hydroid is perfect as is. His undertow is just under utilized by people who think you can just sit in the puddle and do nothing. You know what puddle does for me that plunder will not? Undertow gives me a moment to breath, asses the situation and change course on what i need to do in a fight. I have survived in higher end content with hydroid as in then i could with an armor and damage buff. Undertow allows you superior tactical advantage then a poorly designed one off move.

I also gain better control over tidal surge and kraken with undertow. Sure you can steer with the new one but i think that is gonna cause more issues since you can't control if you want big or small tidal crash like you can with undertow.

Again the current people in charge seem to have a brain dead mindset to how abilities work. They want to make plunder such a boring ability you're not even gonna think about it as you will just mash it when you have energy. 

Barrage is the only ability i'm find with the loss of the push. It never helped and would shove people out of it. I swapped it in the helminth for yareli's aquablades cause i noticed it would sit outside the puddle and cut anyone i pull in and cut them when i jump out thus doing more damage, way more in the water so i had moments of deleting high level enemies.

#SaveUndertow

#ReworkInaros

Hydroid is perfect as is. I now stand on the fact that people who don't know how to use him right are weak.

EDIT: I will also continue to believe DE has abandoned us for just to please the shareholders if this change goes through.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lancars
Driving home the point.

[AegidiusF]

Just to add something I've forgotten to talk about before : Undertow was nice to protect you, granting total cover, during some bosses' attack phase : Jackal (even in the Circuit), Kela... 

I'd really like to see Undertow merged with Tidal Surge into a unique ability and a Tap/Hold mechanic. Plunder is nice, but Undertow (reworked) still has a place in Hydroid's kit, I think. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[Lancars]

Now will they listen to the people or was this "workshop" be a farce and the rework is going through without the say of the people?

[MapleOre]

5 hours ago, Lancars said:

Now will they listen to the people or was this "workshop" be a farce and the rework is going through without the say of the people?

Ah yes, if they don't agree with my incredibly hostile delivery of my critiques, clearly they are ignoring the "people."  The whole reason hydroid is getting this overhaul is BECAUSE the majority of people have, for a long time, made huge forum posts, youtube videos, etc, that hydroid is the worst off frame.  You can go ahead and disagree, heck i think inaros needs more of a look than hydroid personally, but don't get on some bizarre moral high horse that since you think hes fine that means everyone does.  If he was majorly thought of as a serviceable frame this rework wouldn't have been so prominently touted by the staff.  Its sad to see reworks always getting hear from so called "real players" no matter the quality, heck I remember the rework that took saryn from bizarre negative duration press 4 spammer to the absurd plague spreader she is now was originally panned because miasma got "weaker."  Give it some time to display its worth before you keep with this "I only care about my favorite improving if its along my narrow wants" petty tirade.  At the very least this'll make ol waterboy have some interesting mechanics besides borderline annoying cc and sitting there in a puddle acting like hes helping.

[CapinPotato9711]

I think most folk in this forum agree that undertow should be implemented into the new kit as a tap hold function to tidal surge in some way

I feel like the hostility in the more recent comments towards the devs is, unnecacery to say the least. with such a diverce comunity of players who all play for diferent reasons, its nearly imposible to predict what people want, and quite frankly, it will never be able to please everyone . we all like and dislike diferent things, hell, some folk even claim to "not like clem".  ThE HoReR.

but that aside, with 16 pages of "reimplement undertow", Im fairly certian the devs will have gotten the messege, any further hostility is unnesasery (not that it ever was to any extent)

Edited October 10, 2023 by CapinPotato9711
side note: happy naborus:) now go commit some warcrimes

[bangarang35]

4 hours ago, CapinPotato9711 said:

I think most folk in this forum agree that undertow should be implemented into the new kit as a tap hold function to tidal surge

personaly, to keep the panick button utility, I beleive tap should be undertow, hold should be tidal surge, keeping you in tidal surge until you let go, allowing for smoother travel.

 

 

I feel like the hostility in the more recent comments towards the devs is, unnecacery to say the least. with such a diverce comunity of players who all play for diferent reasons, its nearly imposible to predict what people want, and quite frankly, it will never be able to please everyone . we all like and dislike diferent things, hell, some folk even claim to "not like clem".  ThE HoReR.

but that aside, with 16 pages of "reimplement undertow", Im fairly certian the devs will have gotten the messege, any further hostility is unnesasery (not that it ever was to any extent)

I don't know if I would say most people agree with the hold mechanic on 2. I think it might safe to say the majority think it's smart to keep undertow in some fashion though. Regardless of it's on one of his abilities via a charge mechanic, or it's his roll/crouch mechanic, Either could work. Whatever method they would hypothetically choose would definitely impact the small details of how Undertow would work though. Gonna be interesting to see what they do though.

Yeah, definitely can't insult the Devs. Give them a chance to adjust based on feedback. They always do to some degree. No matter what though we can at least say that this rework does improve Hydroid in some key areas, even if his uniqueness and role do take a hit. Trying to look on the bright side. Nonetheless, I encourage DE to save the puddle somehow even if that means tweaks to it lol.

 

#SaveUndertow

#ReworkInaros

[Psianide73]

I'd like to clarify my position on Hydroid.

I gave an example earlier in this thread, of a method for keeping the puddle. That doesn't mean though that I want it to stay. I always subsumed it off as, in my opinion it was a non-ability. Something you could use if you wanted to afk for a drink, bathroom break ect.

That said, I'm looking forward to the rework, bring it on!

 

[Lancars]

14 hours ago, shadeeye said:

Ah yes, if they don't agree with my incredibly hostile delivery of my critiques, clearly they are ignoring the "people."  The whole reason hydroid is getting this overhaul is BECAUSE the majority of people have, for a long time, made huge forum posts, youtube videos, etc, that hydroid is the worst off frame.  You can go ahead and disagree, heck i think inaros needs more of a look than hydroid personally, but don't get on some bizarre moral high horse that since you think hes fine that means everyone does.  If he was majorly thought of as a serviceable frame this rework wouldn't have been so prominently touted by the staff.  Its sad to see reworks always getting hear from so called "real players" no matter the quality, heck I remember the rework that took saryn from bizarre negative duration press 4 spammer to the absurd plague spreader she is now was originally panned because miasma got "weaker."  Give it some time to display its worth before you keep with this "I only care about my favorite improving if its along my narrow wants" petty tirade.  At the very least this'll make ol waterboy have some interesting mechanics besides borderline annoying cc and sitting there in a puddle acting like hes helping.

I agree that a lot of frames got better with reworks but this one just looks bad. Taking an ability that helped survive more and handle the powers better for a brain dead push button no thought buff is annoying because several other frames have stuff like that and i see this for what it is. The beginning of homogenization where frames will start to feel the same. The same push4omnibuff not thought gameplay. It strips armor, gives hydroid armor, gives damage buff. And since you're always surrounded by enemies you just have to melee mash and button mash this ability. Again i think most people see his puddle and thing afk but that is because they lack creativity. plunder is not creative and lower then basic it makes water look like an exotic drink.

 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I want to once again state my proposed change for undertow here.

Back before the rework I wanted this basically.

Tidal surge and undertow are combined.  It's basically now a movement ability like cloud walker and speed.  But when moving it's tidal surge and while stopped it's undertow. 

No tap or hold.  just are you moving or not. 

[LysanderasD]

This has been a long discussion, and I do not have time or inclination to read multiple pages, so it's quite possible that my thoughts have been voiced, but as long as the floor is open, my thoughts to do with Hydroid are less to do with Undertow and more to do with his intended role as an anti-armor unit.

Much can and has been said about the problem of enemy armor, and how the design paradigm of the game has been shifting ever gradually toward "just remove armor so you can kill enemies"; I find this personally to be a deeply unsatisfying change and it highlights an apparent refusal or inability to address the problem of Warframe's power curve in general (and armor's DR curve specifically), but there's no need to beat a dead kaithe on that subject.

The issue I see is that the proposed changes to Hydroid's abilities (and thus his role in a squad) mean that he joins the ranks of warframes like Styanax, Grendel, Caliban, and Hildryn, whose main focus at high levels is foremost the removal of armor. However, Hydroid is the only warframe in this niche who must do so through an intermediary (i.e., Corrosion). All other defense-stripping warframes simply activate a power, and it is the power itself that removes armor.

Hydroid's process is more complex; it necessitates a specific damage type (which he at least innately provides) and requires him to "solidify" the armor reduction by casting a third power. This is essentially a multi-step process, wherein he must attack an enemy, then apply ten stacks of corrosion,  then cast Plunder to "make it count." In any content where the removal of armor matters, this means Hydroid must perform two to three times as many actions and wait an indefinitely longer amount of time for his armor stripping to work compared to any of the other defense-removal warframes (by which point, even on Steel Path, other warframes can and will have killed the enemy in question).

And this is to say nothing of the fact that many high level enemies cannot even suffer the necessary ten stacks in order to fully remove armor. Styanax can press two and totally remove an acolyte's defenses; Hydroid, because of the nature of his armor removal, cannot ever permanently remove all armor from such targets.

(EDIT: as an aside, has it been specified whether Hydroid's passive works retroactively? e.g., if an enemy already has ten stacks of Corrosion and Hydroid damages them, does this retroactively make the first stack powerful enough for the entire stack to strip all armor?)

I am not one who normally argues for efficiency over fun or thematic purity, but the simple fact of the matter is that Hydroid (at least as he is presented here) cannot compete in the niche he's being moved to, and the removal of his intangibility in Undertow is a severe blow to his survivability even accounting for the fact that Plunder can give you armor (and then only if the enemy has armor to plunder).

Edited October 9, 2023 by LysanderasD
Corrected an error and added an additional thought.

[bangarang35]

On 2023-10-09 at 3:35 PM, LysanderasD said:

And this is to say nothing of the fact that many high level enemies cannot even suffer the necessary ten stacks in order to fully remove armor. Styanax can press two and totally remove an acolyte's defenses; Hydroid, because of the nature of his armor removal, cannot ever permanently remove all armor from such targets.

(EDIT: as an aside, has it been specified whether Hydroid's passive works retroactively? e.g., if an enemy already has ten stacks of Corrosion and Hydroid damages them, does this retroactively make the first stack powerful enough for the entire stack to strip all armor?)

I am not one who normally argues for efficiency over fun or thematic purity, but the simple fact of the matter is that Hydroid (at least as he is presented here) cannot compete in the niche he's being moved to, and the removal of his intangibility in Undertow is a severe blow to his survivability even accounting for the fact that Plunder can give you armor (and then only if the enemy has armor to plunder).

@[DE]Juice

 

That's a good point. Even though Hydroid does improve with this rework in some ways, he won't be able to compete with the other armor strip frames. Armor strip works even on eximus enemies for the other warframes. Hydroid's corrosive stacks likely cannot armor strip an eximus though since his stacks should be blocked by the enemy's overguard. Yikes, he genuinely does end back up at the bottom of his new role again while also sacrificing his best form of current survivability. That's a problem. 

 

To take it a step further, Frost is also a great cc and armor strip frame. I feel like Frost would  be the much easier choice to pick over Hydroid though. Frost has no limit to the amount of enemies he can cc. It's just based on range, and he has pretty good armor strip nowdays, better than Hydroids for sure in light of this problem. If you try to move Hydroid into a new role then he has to be competitive.

This is exactly why I believe DE really needs to put out a rework workshop prior to any coding being commenced. Everything has to check out conceptually first. The player base is VERY GOOD at pointing out potential flaws in a rework. Hopefully DE does see this and implements a fix for this clear issue. 

 

EDIT: correction didn't realize enemy OG is different than the players. So, the corrosive stacks would still work but the way the armor strip is applied seems like it could be a bit slower due to more steps and less reaching than other frames.

#SaveUndertow

#ReworkInaros

Edited October 13, 2023 by bangarang35

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 2 horas, bangarang35 dijo:

Hydroid's corrosive stacks likely cannot armor strip an eximus though since his stacks should be blocked by the enemy's overguard.

Why couldn't I remove the Eximus' armor? overguard doesn't block corrosive status and so far all armor strips work.

[bangarang35]

2 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Why couldn't I remove the Eximus' armor? overguard doesn't block corrosive status and so far all armor strips work.

just checked the wiki. I know overguard on players will block all status effects, but it seems it slightly different for enemies. Looks like overguard on enemies does impact many status effects. However, it doesn't seem to be that corrosive is on the list. That's confusing for enemies to have a different type of overguard lol. If the wiki didn't make a mistake by leaving out details on corrosive's relationship to overguard, then corrosive might be ok. Probably a little slower than the instant forms of armor strip though. Not entirely sure if it would be the end of the world, but it is an extra step to apply the stack and then hit plunder. each stack from any source on Hydroid should do some armor stripping though so perhaps that might balance it out. Can't say for sure. Need to get my hands on it first to really see/test.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't corrosive only impact ferrite armor? How many enemies would this be effective against if that is the case?

Edited October 10, 2023 by bangarang35

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

6 minutes ago, bangarang35 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't corrosive only impact ferrite armor? How many enemies would this be effective against if that is the case?

It affects all Armors that have a numbered stat which means not Adaptation and not Damage attenuation

 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 48 minutos, bangarang35 dijo:

just checked the wiki. I know overguard on players will block all status effects, but it seems it slightly different for enemies. Looks like overguard on enemies does impact many status effects. However, it doesn't seem to be that corrosive is on the list. That's confusing for enemies to have a different type of overguard lol. If the wiki didn't make a mistake by leaving out details on corrosive's relationship to overguard, then corrosive might be ok. Probably a little slower than the instant forms of armor strip though. Not entirely sure if it would be the end of the world, but it is an extra step to apply the stack and then hit plunder. each stack from any source on Hydroid should do some armor stripping though so perhaps that might balance it out. Can't say for sure. Need to get my hands on it first to really see/test.

Additionally, his passive also works with weapons that apply corrosive.

hace 48 minutos, bangarang35 dijo:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't corrosive only impact ferrite armor? How many enemies would this be effective against if that is the case?

Affects both armors.

[(PSN)aarott]

6 hours ago, LysanderasD said:

 

And this is to say nothing of the fact that many high level enemies cannot even suffer the necessary ten stacks in order to fully remove armor. Styanax can press two and totally remove an acolyte's defenses; Hydroid, because of the nature of his armor removal, cannot ever permanently remove all armor from such targets.

It might be only mostly that bad. Hypothetically, he'd just need to put a corrosive proc on status resistant eneimes ( 1 of his enhanced procs neutralising 50% armour) and then cast pillage twice. Resetting his Plunder damage and armour bonus when he does so, of course, to a probably lower amount.  So twice the effort for less gain than his contemporaries. 

 

5 hours ago, bangarang35 said:

 

To take it a step further, Frost is also a great cc and armor strip frame. I feel like Frost would  be the much easier choice to pick over Hydroid though. Frost has no limit to the amount of enemies he can cc. It's just based on range, and he has pretty good armor strip nowdays, better than Hydroids for sure in light of this problem. If you try to move Hydroid into a new role then he has to be competitive.

Very much a 'uses four abilities to do the same job slower than other frames do in 1' kind of frame. Only exception is his passive, which is genuinely good, since he'll be able to neutralise armour without any abilities. It just feels kind of smarm that the best feature of his rework is that Hydroid, and only Hydroid, gets unnerfed corrosive from before the latest status rework. Kind of similar to how Inaros is 'health so good he doesn't need abilities,' Hydroid is becoming 'passive so good he doesn't need abilities.'

To be fully fair to nu hydroid, his tentacles do last longer than Frosts. Which is good, since it'll take the full 10 or so seconds Avalanche lasts for the tentacles to inflict 10 corrosive stacks. So arguably better CC, worse amour strip. A much better comparison would be Vauban's Bastille, which also takes 10ish seconds to strip armour. In fact, OP passive aside, nu Hydroid's looking a lot like Vauban. 

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, bangarang35 said:

If the wiki didn't make a mistake by leaving out details on corrosive's relationship to overguard, then corrosive might be ok.

Corrosive affects enemies through Overguard.

3 hours ago, bangarang35 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't corrosive only impact ferrite armor?

It affects all three types of enemy armor.  (Probably Tenno armor too, but I don't know for sure.)

[(PSN)aarott]

If you think Hydroid is better with these changes, I agree that you are, with exception to one of his abilities, largely correct.

 

If you think the passive is good, that’s because it is. Stripping armour with weapons alone was good back when all frames could do this, and it’ll be even better with stuff like Nourish and Incarnons running available. Almost certainly better than a random tentacle sometimes messing your plans. Maybe a bit of a shame this nixes any chance old style corrosive armour stripping will be granted to other frames, and a bit lame that the best ability in Hydroid’s kit will be buffing the corrosive procs of himself and occasionally his squadmates, but otherwise this is a fine passive.

 

If you think his 3 remaining abilities are better, I agree they pretty much are. Only small caveats is whether tentacles can slap CC immune targets still (and by extension whether pilfering tentacles might cease to work on stuff like grove spectres), the nerf to damaging shields on tentacles and barrage both that comes with shifting to corrosive from impact and magnetic, and whether making tidal surge controllable compromises it’s speed. Beyond those very few considerations, I’m as baffled as the puddle haters why some people don’t like these changes.

 

If you think Plunder is better than Undertow, here’re some firm arguments that you are wrong. The only really good thing about the ability is that it let’s your guns use the passive without having to mod for it, but that’s more the passive being good than + corrosive being an intrinsically good effect. And even at it’s best when you’re using it to run corrosive AND viral, you’d probably be better off just running nourish and modding corrosive instead since that’s less variable, gives you energy as well, and doesn’t need to be re-setup every minute or so where you'll still be reliant on inflicting corrosive procs with your other abilities. 

The defence is very meh, like you’ll be in Atlas, Valkyr, Lavos and Inaros levels of EHP, but if you think having a high EHP alone will save you in late SP you’re mistaken; all of those frames have abilities to replenish their health and avoid damage that Hydroid does not have. And high EHP is just factually not as good for not dying as being literally invincible, even if you can’t shoot and run around you can still restore your shield gate and restore your health and wait out rolling guard cooldown.

As for the armour strip, it’s redundant to strip the armour of an enemy with neutralised armour, and the only time this really matters is when the enemy is resistant to status and so only takes limited corrosive procs. Even at its best, it’s still worse than comparable armour strips in Pillage and Tharros Strike. Most of the time this’ll only be relevant in Steel Path when acolytes appear, but there’s already plenty of weapons that handle acolytes. MAYBE this’ll be helpful when farming necramechs, and depending on whether tentacles’ll will work on them this might become something meta for Hydroid. But that’s a big if, I’m 95% sure Pilfering Tentacles don't hit mechs now and I’m doubtful DE’ll suddenly let Pilfering work where it didn’t before.

Also, undertow is way more interesting visually, thematically and mechanically than plunder is. Yeah, I'm saying "gun glow green and do bigger number ability #n+1" is boring, and you can't convince me otherwise. 

 

But other than Plunder replacing Undertow, and relatively minor considerations for his other abilities, I agree the new rework is better for Hydroid. Although the passive being the best part is intensely lame.

[Bossman252621]

14 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

It might be only mostly that bad. Hypothetically, he'd just need to put a corrosive proc on status resistant eneimes ( 1 of his enhanced procs neutralising 50% armour) and then cast pillage twice. Resetting his Plunder damage and armour bonus when he does so, of course, to a probably lower amount.  So twice the effort for less gain than his contemporaries. 

I'm not even sure if that'd work. From how I understood it, plunder seems to strip what corrosive status reduces the armor by and, unless it gets its own special gimmick, corrosive would only reduce the new current armor after you cast plunder. This means in the above situation, he'd end up reducing 50% of the enemy's armor on the first cast of plunder, then 50% of the new armor amount, resulting in 75% of the original armor stripped.

10 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

If you think his 3 remaining abilities are better, I agree they pretty much are. Only small caveats is whether tentacles can slap CC immune targets still (and by extension whether pilfering tentacles might cease to work on stuff like grove spectres), the nerf to damaging shields on tentacles and barrage both that comes with shifting to corrosive from impact and magnetic, and whether making tidal surge controllable compromises it’s speed. Beyond those very few considerations, I’m as baffled as the puddle haters why some people don’t like these changes.

I somewhat dislike the change of tempest barrage from ragdolls to staggers, though I can see why people may prefer the latter's less obtrusive effects. Because of the nonscaling tentacle cap of tentacle swarm, its single instance limit and its poor ability to grab new enemies, tempest barrage has personally always felt like the more consistent crowd tool for missions where enemy suppression is more important than just killing enemies, like interceptions and mobile defenses.