Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework

[(PSN)aarott]

I wish Scott was still here, so he could save his boy from Pablo and preserve Zabyr's smile. 

[NecroPed]

4 hours ago, Psianide73 said:

If anything, the best suggestion I can think of is to have Puddle work like Limbos roll.

Rolling makes you dive down to become a puddle that renders you untouchable to all except Eximus units. No sprinting, only walking pace (moddable). No other abilities can be triggered (but existing abilities will persist) while down there. Shields and health will recharge while puddled.

It'll be a panic button of sorts.

Roll again to dive out of the water which triggers a radial pull.

I really like that idea. 

[NecroPed]

5 hours ago, Tellmeninetails said:

Also literally no one was annoyed with his puddle hiding enemies. Seccodnly you can shoot the puddle to defeat the enemies inside enemies. Overall the puddle was the most fun part of his kit, now his kit is more boring overall now that it's replaced with a simple armor strip.

False. I hate this, and I do not find it even remotely fun to shoot a puddle, period. So undertow is often taking my fun away when I'm not even playing hydroid. 

Most fun part? I think it was the most boring part, for me maybe even the most boring thing in warframe completely. It was the least engaging part of his kit for me and it takes engagement away from me even when others use it.

With these changes I think Hydroid is going to be way more fun. 

[(XBOX)Djinisis]

Making him more corrosive seems like they are missing the point of Hydroid being the pirate frame. Why not keep and increase his impact stagger capabilities making him a more melee/pistol focused frame with soft execute/open up finishers and headshot crit.

A “Swashbuckling Pirate” if they wanted to stay on theme.
Hold that corrosive armor melting for an acid frame they want to make in the future.

Edited October 5, 2023 by (XBOX)Djinisis

[(PSN)aarott]

Honestly, the real reason I think they’re taking the puddle out is because it would have been too good an ability.

>“Puddle too good an ability? You mean the worst ability.”

Nah, see, nigh unconditional invincibility from which you can launch spells that does %HP damage is good, depending on how good those spells are. But now Hydroid is getting actually good spells he can use in undertow. His other abilities haven’t been intrinsically good for ages – like, they’re ok at disabling enemies so you can run in and hit them with a sword, but that requires you to get out of puddle, and by themselves won’t scale to high levels and don’t super synergise with puddle. But now rain’s actually gonna armour strip to enable some proper %HP damage like in the good old days, and wave’s gonna be a good gathering tool to get enemies into that %HP damage. So Puddle would have become actually good with his first two abilities, perhaps even too powerful for the warframe meta…

Except, y’know, Revenant’s still out here being invincible and also he gets to do %HP shenanigans and can even do them to enemies that Hydroid can't, but he’s Reb’s special child so I guess he gets special treatment.

5 hours ago, NecroPed said:

False. I hate this, and I do not find it even remotely fun to shoot a puddle, period. So undertow is often taking my fun away when I'm not even playing hydroid. 

Y'know, I was going to hate on this, but I can't in good faith since I personally find it unfun to shoot at Zephyr's tornadoes. Plus I've never shot into a puddle before, I've always been the puddle asking team on voice chat to shoot me, so I guess I wouldn't know the feel. 

Still, imagine how much the average Zephyr player would riot if you took away their tornado - that's how I feel about the puddle. 

[(PSN)aarott]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Djinisis said:

Why not keep and increase his impact stagger capabilities making him a more melee/pistol focused frame with soft execute/open up finishers and headshot crit.

See, the funny thing is, Undertow opens enemies to ground finishers, and ground finishers are going to be treated as actual true finishers come the next update. So Hydroid *would* have had another tool to open up finishers for soft excecutes, except he'll be getting vex-armour-at-home instead. 

 

I’m so annoyed at the “hey, puddle was a BAD ability, and now we’re replacing it with a GOOD one” take that people are going with. Like, have you heard of Vex Armour? It’s basically the same thing as Plunder, but with more bonuses but with way less stupid a setup, being that Vex Armour doesn’t involve a cone that keys off a range stat so you can run Narrow Minded to make the egg timer nature more bearable, also it doesn’t require enemies in line of sight, and also those enemies don’t need to have a specific status applied to them, and it’s refreshable when recast rather than resetting, and provides a damage bonus that doesn’t diminish in effectiveness when the enemy has no armour oh and by the way this ability strips armour; and while armour strip sounds good this armour strip is redundant because it only works on enemies that already have their armour neutralised and also are likely in the midst of abilities that are continuously reapplying and refreshing the debuff that’s neutralising the armour, I mean for goodness sake it’s another armour countering ability on a character that already has 3 abilities that counter armour.  

It’s like Pablo made it bad on purpose, like he thought it wouldn’t fit Hydroid’s kit unless it was deliberately bad. Or more likely, he went through a ticklist of 'generic good stuff in warframe', grabbed a couple at random, and threw it on Hydroid.

But I guess it’ll be good for simulacrum meta, so as far as the majority of warframe players are good it’s a great replacement.

 

P.S.: just want a moment to explain how annoying getting a fat stack of corrosive bonus damage could potentially be. So one of my favourite weapons is the tenet cycron, I run a heat build with Primed Heat mod and a 60/60 heat mod for maximum fire procs. So it's doing about 325% heat, meaning I get lots of heat procs, about a hundred a second, for maximum tick damage that I further maximise with a Bane mod, and I typically use warframe abilities to push it even further. Murderous against infested and grineer a like. But if I chuck 300% Corrosive on top of that, almost half of my procs are going to be corrosive procs, which means a huge cut to my DPS. And sure, it can help with armour debuffing I guess, except if I'm running my abilities I'm already debuffing their armour. So getting this bonus Corrosive damage on my Cycron? Actually a DPS loss.

Edited October 5, 2023 by (PSN)aarott

[HiFixx]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Djinisis said:

Making him more corrosive seems like they are missing the point of Hydroid being the pirate frame. Why not keep and increase his impact stagger capabilities making him a more melee/pistol focused frame with soft execute/open up finishers and headshot crit.

A “Swashbuckling Pirate” if they wanted to stay on theme.
Hold that corrosive armor melting for an acid frame they want to make in the future.

The change to corrosive is meant to represent the corrosion of seawater.

Also this GIF isn’t the best choice to pick as the pirate is stabbing what looks to be a kraken’s tentacle. Hydroid literally has a pet kraken.

Other than that, the change to corrosive actually further strengthens his identity as a pirate, since seawater’s naturally corrosive. Plus pirates are usually surrounded by… seawater.

Edited October 5, 2023 by HiFixx
Just wanted to add on to what I said.

[rawr1254]

Idk if this was put out there yet but. If Tentacle swarm is still gonna be as it is only no  flailing, is there any chance we could also change it to:

Total grabbable enemies is still the same HOWEVER, when an enemy is  killed and an enemy is standing in the original painted zone another tentacle grabs an enemy not currently grabbed yet. This always felt would make so much more sense to me than having to recast the ability just because Im down to one enemy currently held.

 

Also, some kind of functionality of the kraken you summon would be much appreciated such as some some kind of synergy with plunder where if you remove a certain amount of stacks the kraken will suck in enemies intermittently similar to magus anomaly while also doing the above recommendation(would be pointless to have this if youd have to recast it anyway.)

So if say you take 10 stacks your kraken will suck in enemies 10m outside of the original radius at 20 its 20m but that is flat unchanged by mods.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by rawr1254

[Zre6]

12 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

See, the funny thing is, Undertow opens enemies to ground finishers, and ground finishers are going to be treated as actual true finishers come the next update. So Hydroid *would* have had another tool to open up finishers for soft excecutes, except he'll be getting vex-armour-at-home instead. 

 

I’m so annoyed at the “hey, puddle was a BAD ability, and now we’re replacing it with a GOOD one” take that people are going with. Like, have you heard of Vex Armour? It’s basically the same thing as Plunder, but with more bonuses but with way less stupid a setup, being that Vex Armour doesn’t involve a cone that keys off a range stat so you can run Narrow Minded to make the egg timer nature more bearable, also it doesn’t require enemies in line of sight, and also those enemies don’t need to have a specific status applied to them, and it’s refreshable when recast rather than resetting, and provides a damage bonus that doesn’t diminish in effectiveness when the enemy has no armour oh and by the way this ability strips armour; and while armour strip sounds good this armour strip is redundant because it only works on enemies that already have their armour neutralised and also are likely in the midst of abilities that are continuously reapplying and refreshing the debuff that’s neutralising the armour, I mean for goodness sake it’s another armour countering ability on a character that already has 3 abilities that counter armour.  

It’s like Pablo made it bad on purpose, like he thought it wouldn’t fit Hydroid’s kit unless it was deliberately bad. Or more likely, he went through a ticklist of 'generic good stuff in warframe', grabbed a couple at random, and threw it on Hydroid.

But I guess it’ll be good for simulacrum meta, so as far as the majority of warframe players are good it’s a great replacement.

DE keeps taking one step forward and two steps backwards.

And you gave me another reason to be mad about DE and part of the clueless playerbase pressuring them to deliberately remove the puddle ability, because if they were gonna change ground finisher to do true damage then it would've been perfect to use Obex ground finisher build with Hydroid since he can apply a lot of knockdown to enemies simultaneously, now that has been completely axed.

Edit: And I forgot to mention they changed tempest barrage to apply stagger instead of knockdown which is a minus to this,

Edited October 6, 2023 by Zre6

[NecroPed]

12 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

.Y'know, I was going to hate on this, but I can't in good faith since I personally find it unfun to shoot at Zephyr's tornadoes. Plus I've never shot into a puddle before, I've always been the puddle asking team on voice chat to shoot me, so I guess I wouldn't know the feel. 

Still, imagine how much the average Zephyr player would riot if you took away their tornado - that's how I feel about the puddle. 

I understand not liking part of the kit being removed, it does suck, though I think hydroids changes sound pretty healthy so I think it's a worthy trade off, granted I'm not really going to miss puddle. I just really hate this mentality that everyone likes it and no one has a problem with it because its clearly not true if they even thought to remove it, and myself and others on the forums have said they don't like it so to say stuff like "literally no one was annoyed" is just ridiculous to me and it's like someone else is deciding what my opinion on it is.  

I don't have an inherent problem with puddle existing, but the only way I could see the puddle being good for his kit is if it's heavily reworked. 

[Lancars]

On 2023-09-29 at 2:30 AM, LightlessIvara said:

This rework is a perfect example of changes that will make a frame "better" but does not make them more fun to play. It's sad to see but because their abilities were not really changed and the one ability that was really unique, that being undertow, was replaced by what is essentially a redundant buff I feel it's relegated hydroid to a very boring role of self buffer with a bit of armor strip and cc.

If you ask me it stripped away what made hydroid himself and turns him into a shallow armor stripper. They saw undertow in a manner that's much too binary, it had to be a stationary pool that sucks enemies under. Why not instead make it so it's a passive area around Hydroid that would restrain enemies inside it? Hell even his old rework didn't do him justice because of how much they shrunk undertow, I think they should have gone back to their roots and give it back it's old range but instead of pulling enemies under it would slow them and maybe have a tentacle disarm them while keeping the shared damage between enemies in its range. Could've also given that some synergy by making it so you could have a kraken that follows you around when holding down his 4 with it active.

Hell they could have done a lot of things differently, his kit is stronger now but because they didn't take the liberties to try experimenting with more radical changes to how an ability works they didn't actually change how he feels in a way that will make him more interesting or engaging. Like say instead of making tempest barrage a series of missiles make it an aoe acid rain that slows down enemies, or how about making it so enemies hit by tidal surge get rooted in place by tentacles to further cement that as a cc ability without having to deal with janky ragdoll physics. He's still exactly the same as he was but just sucks less with some of his identity taken away in favor of a very lackluster self buff.

Undertow didn't have to be stationary. I did a lot of dolphin diving and i would jump out and use ground finishers on targets easily. Plus it made it so if i really needed to i could take out a good chunk of enemies for a moment. Put some dots on them and put them in the undertow it seems to accelerate the damage they take so you're not sitting there.

Plus undertow allowed me to change kraken from being all over to a more confined space. Now its going to be random chaos again if it pops out in the right spots. This is a stupid change for a boring ability.

[Lancars]

6 hours ago, Zre6 said:

DE keeps taking one step forward and two steps backwards.

And you gave me another reason to be mad about DE and part of the clueless playerbase pressuring them to deliberately remove the puddle ability, because if they were gonna change ground finisher to do true damage then it would've been perfect to use Obex ground finisher build with Hydroid since he can apply a lot of knockdown to enemies simultaneously, now that has been completely axed.

Edit: And I forgot to mention they changed tempest barrage to apply stagger instead of knockdown which is a minus to this,

Wait. SO THEY ARE CHANGING HIM FOR ONE STUPID MECHANIC?! WOW.... I almost wanted to say something that could get me banned. That is vile. Ruining a frame to push in some stupid mechanic.

What's to stop them from ruining another frame for a stupid gimmick. Looks like someone Nat 1'd their Int and Wis throws. Well my trust in them in gone.

[Lancars]

On 2023-10-04 at 10:43 PM, Psianide73 said:

If anything, the best suggestion I can think of is to have Puddle work like Limbos roll.

Rolling makes you dive down to become a puddle that renders you untouchable to all except Eximus units. No sprinting, only walking pace (moddable). No other abilities can be triggered (but existing abilities will persist) while down there. Shields and health will recharge while puddled.

It'll be a panic button of sorts.

Roll again to dive out of the water which triggers a radial pull.

See DE? THIS is a good idea. This would have been a good way to fix Hydroid and keep his kit feeling the same. But nooo.

[(XBOX)TagDatFatCat]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Zre6:

DE keeps taking one step forward and two steps backwards.

And you gave me another reason to be mad about DE and part of the clueless playerbase pressuring them to deliberately remove the puddle ability, because if they were gonna change ground finisher to do true damage then it would've been perfect to use Obex ground finisher build with Hydroid since he can apply a lot of knockdown to enemies simultaneously, now that has been completely axed.

Edit: And I forgot to mention they changed tempest barrage to apply stagger instead of knockdown which is a minus to this,

This... I get the intention DE has by making enemies only stagger on spot when hit by Barrage, but especially if they'd make ground finishers work better, they could've literally let the ability work as it did at the very beginning and let it knock enemies down.

 

Really only the ragdoll was a problem.

While visually pleasing, it is super counter productive, could literally sling enemies in the direction I did NOT WANT them to go and bothered me very much since suddenly the Puddle was my more effective tool to CC enemies the way I wanted to and open them up to ground finishers, which is actually quiet usefull. 

 

DE could go as far and ad a "suppressed" state to enemies that are repeatadly knocked down.

Since it looked strange for enemies to stand up to just get knocked down again, why not have them stuck in a knocked down state, if they are affected by 2 or more Barrage projectiles/knock down effects within a certain amount of time. So enemies would remain pinned on the floor under the suppression fire of the barrage and be open to ground finishers. It would be visually pleasing, actually usefull and shouldn't be too hard to execute. 

AND it could be extended to be a mechanical change for any knockdown or rather; this mechanical change would extend into abilities like Barrage. Basically if knockdowns get stacked, the enemy will remain pinned on the floor until the stacks runs out instead of the enemy being in that weird animation loop of standing up just to lose footing again like it's slapstick comedy . 

Edited October 6, 2023 by (XBOX)TagDatFatCat
Spelling

[(XBOX)TagDatFatCat]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb rawr1254:

... 

So if say you take 10 stacks your kraken will suck in enemies 10m outside of the original radius at 20 its 20m but that is flat unchanged by mods.

 

 

I mean, also an idea would be that tentacles spawn in a fixed area, unaffected by range, while the Kraken could pull enemies into range within a wider area of effect and affected by range. So it would group enemies up in a choke point similar to Nidus' Larva ability, except for longer duration and nicely impaled by a Tentacle.

High range made this ability unbearable to use because it was random where the Tentacles would block paths and while all of Hydroid's abilities would greatly benefit from huge range, his 4th became a slot machine roll, this way it would be more controllable no matter the range. And if you build negative range it would still be usefull for the tentacles alone. 

Using puddle and grabbing enemies into range was Hydroid's only way of reliably grouping enemies, but in the way I described the Kraken could do the job. 

[Zre6]

7 hours ago, Lancars said:

Wait. SO THEY ARE CHANGING HIM FOR ONE STUPID MECHANIC?! WOW.... I almost wanted to say something that could get me banned. That is vile. Ruining a frame to push in some stupid mechanic.

What's to stop them from ruining another frame for a stupid gimmick. Looks like someone Nat 1'd their Int and Wis throws. Well my trust in them in gone.

I think you misunderstood me. I mean the current Hydroid could work well after the ground finisher change because he can apply knockdown frequently. They changed his Tempest Barrage from knockdown to stagger and replaced the puddle with some mid armor strip self buff ability, hence this possible playstyle is ruined.

And they already ruined this playstyle years ago with Valkyr's Paralysis augment being so buggy and forgot to fix it.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Zre6

[LuckyCharm]

I feel like theyre going a little too careful with his build. The changes still sound very much like he's going to be rng heavy  only this time without his puddle to avoid chunks of damage with. Like why doesnt he get a passive like x marks the spot, where after he damages an enemy his abilities target that one, and killing marked enemies gives more loot/credits.. something to make his pirate theme come through but help his rng since 2 of his abilities at the very least are so random. 

As for puddle bein removed, personally i think they should have just given it a duration and allowed it to stay active but hydroid could enter and leave as he pleased. That way its still cc, but hydroid can actually play in the mission

 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Zre6 said:

And they already ruined this playstyle years ago with Valkyr's Paralysis augment being so buggy and forgot to fix it.

Did it ever work smoothly?  I've basically assumed that stuff like its effect on targets still recovering from the last cast or from other CC is a limitation of the engine.

Still works decently despite all that, and I'm soooo looking forward to seeing how far I can push it with the changes to ground finishers.

 

[Lancars]

3 hours ago, Zre6 said:

I think you misunderstood me. I mean the current Hydroid could work well after the ground finisher change because he can apply knockdown frequently. They changed his Tempest Barrage from knockdown to stagger and replaced the puddle with some mid armor strip self buff ability, hence this possible playstyle is ruined.

And they already ruined this playstyle years ago with Valkyr's Paralysis augment being so buggy and forgot to fix it.

No you could have pointed out an unreasonable but valid reason as to why this change is happening. Sadly this stupid and terrible change will be defended and go through because this new team doesn't listen to feedback and have become the type of creative team that has ascended to the ivory tower and no longer need us for feedback. I use to believe DE was different but now they will make stupid choice after stupid choice and not listen to us ever. They don't need player feedback anymore only their wallets.

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

... with the changes to ground finishers

Wait, what's changing with ground finishers?

[Tiltskillet]

9 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Wait, what's changing with ground finishers?

Will trigger finisher conditions and inflict true damage.

[(PSN)zombie103warssmt]

Hydroid becoming relevant again. Looks like Khora has a little bit of competition now. Although i am curious to know what's gonna happen to the Pilfering Swarm augment.

[Lancars]

Why bother having a workshop when you're dead set on removing puddle for a generic armor strip power up button? Nothing is going to change your minds as you believe you're right in your choices. Like the Orokin.

[(NSW)HydroidPrime]

A different status type on Hydroids new barrage ability would have been more interesting imo. Corrosive on every ability seems kind of redundant, don't get me wrong 100 strip is very nice. Cold would have been a nice status for his first (or puddle if it wasn't gone), a nice slowing CC and now cold can give a decent crit damage buff. Maybe call it Leviathans Typhoon or something else besides Barrage. The plus viral augment seems nice but most of my weapons are already modded for viral because how strong it makes slash. I guess it will be nice for alternative CO builds. 

[(PSN)aarott]

6 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

I feel like they're going a little too careful with his build.

Very much this. It's like Pablo had a checklist that said 'stuff a modern warframe needs', with 'defensive ability', 'offensive amp', & 'armour strip' on it. But then he gave up and just made it one ability in Plunder. 

 

6 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Like why doesnt he get a passive like x marks the spot, where after he damages an enemy his abilities target that one, and killing marked enemies gives more loot/credits.. something to make his pirate theme come through but help his rng since 2 of his abilities at the very least are so random. 

See, he could direct the RNG on his tentacles with Undertow, but that's being taken away.