The forums are going in the wrong direction

[German]

A few years ago, roughly around the Hildryn 2-week-platinum exclusivity controversity any form of "disliking" or reacting negatively to a post was permanently removed.

The only reactions you could do to a post were different kinds of positively-vibed emojis, limiting the democratic impact the players could express on a post.

 

However, the community quickly developed an alternative as they realized they could just use the "laughing" emoji on any post they didn't like or plainly said, found "ridiculous".

The laughing emoji essentially served as a replacement for a dislike button and was thus the dominating reaction on every controversial developer post.

 

This then went on for a while until one day any form of reacting to a post has been completely removed and replaced with the single ability to "like" a post in the form of a heart, heavily limiting the democratic impact players could have on a post and the only way beeing to have your own post buried in a sea of other posts.

 

Up until recently, every person had a community rating which was essentially just a "like count". But still, it gave credit to people who have been playing a big role in the community (e.g. people like Voltage) and put some form of weight or impact on posts.

Now this has been removed aswell.

 

So why are the forums slowly beeing stripped of all forms of ratings and "quick" reactions.

This, in a time where social interactions and voicing oppinions is beeing limited all over the gaming industry, is worrying.

Also while the issue where the forums log you out like every 3 days also just persists for like a year or 2 now.

 

It just seems like the forums are moving into a direction that is just anti-player and further limiting voicing oppinions.

 

Edit: And yes i know, technically you can still see someones rep when you visit their profile but its odd that they just hide it that way now.

My concern comes from the accumulation of all the changes, not necessarely from each one individually.

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by German

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

11 minutes ago, German said:

A few years ago, roughly around the Hildryn 2-week-platinum exclusivity controversity any form of "disliking" or reacting negatively to a post was permanently removed.

The only reactions you could do to a post were different kinds of positively-vibed emojis, limiting the democratic impact the players could express on a post.

 

However, the community quickly developed an alternative as they realized they could just use the "laughing" emoji on any post they didn't like or plainly said, found "ridiculous".

The laughing emoji essentially served as a replacement for a dislike button and was thus the dominating reaction on every controversial developer post.

 

This then went on for a while until one day any form of reacting to a post has been completely removed and replaced with the single ability to "like" a post in the form of a heart, heavily limiting the democratic impact players could have on a post and the only way beeing to have your own post buried in a sea of other posts.

 

Up until recently, every person had a community rating which was essentially just a "like count". But still, it gave credit to people who have been playing a big role in the community (e.g. people like Voltage) and put some form of weight or impact on posts.

Now this has been removed aswell.

 

So why are the forums slowly beeing stripped of all forms of ratings and "quick" reactions.

This, in a time where social interactions and voicing oppinions is beeing limited all over the gaming industry, is worrying.

Also while the issue where the forums log you out like every 3 days also just persists for like a year or 2 now.

 

It just seems like the forums are moving into a direction that is just anti-player and further limiting voicing oppinions.

 

Now this is a post I can really get behind.

Edited October 5, 2023 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[German]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (PSN)FrDiabloFr:

Now this is a post I can really get behind, after recently having my opinion silenced.

Understandable but we should try to not speak about specific events as that quickly gets your post locked.

Speaking of the topic as a whole though is allowed and we should be fine.

It is how it is ..

 

With this thread I hope I can spark some good discussion regarding the forums, as now in a slow point for content, it seems like a good time to look at that.

Edited October 5, 2023 by German

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

1 minute ago, German said:

Understandable but we should try to not speak about specific events as that quickly gets your post locked.

Speaking of the topic as a whole though is allowed and we should be fine.

It is how it is ..

The media black out got it, i’ll edit my original.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

While entertaining it was to haha, a disliking option isn't great because people just drop the dislike/downvote without expressing on why they dislike something.

Using words is much more impactful than dropping a negative number or sticker on a post

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

While entertaining it was to haha, a disliking option isn't great because people just drop the dislike/downvote without expressing on why they dislike something.

Using words is much more impactful than dropping a negative number or sticker on a post

Agreed, but counter argument a lot of people are honestly lazy and I know it seems like nothing but writing a proper thought through review is effort, so the dislike button gets hit.

[German]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)C11H22O11:

While entertaining it was to haha, a disliking option isn't great because people just drop the dislike/downvote without expressing on why they dislike something.

Using words is much more impactful than dropping a negative number or sticker on a post

I think they both compliment each other. The like/dislike ratio does well in bringing attention and magnitude to an issue while a proper post brings context. Most people will never take the time to post constructive feedback. Thats where you loose alot of important voices.

[(PSN)RB3-Reloaded]

This is a good discussion to have but I HAVE to say this… these forums are supposed to be a place for constructive and high quality discussion and the ability to have that tarnished by an easy “dislike button” just because someone “doesn’t like” your idea not necessarily because it was not thought through or low quality but because they don’t like certain ideas brought to the table (I know WF players do that ALOT with any pvp discussion) can be very obnoxious and can steamroll out of control easily

I feel the like atleast now players can comment under a post with an explanation on why they don’t like something but even then that has holes…

I feel like the REAL problem with forums is how certain high quality discussions are removed or locked for no good reason meanwhile complete nonsense (as in the biggest BAITS ) gets left on here and sometimes even gets a developer response it’s kinda wild and to me disheartening on what a high quality forum is supposed to be like

Edited October 5, 2023 by (PSN)RB3-Reloaded

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

People used to use words instead of reactions....but anyways....

Basic "customer is always right" take. 

Unless it's reverted in the future, it was probably done for a reason. 

Some "gamers" love to talk about freedom of expression, but suddenly act clueless when the insults, dev bashing and echo chamber-misery squads take over. 

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)RB3-Reloaded said:

This is a good discussion to have but I HAVE to say this… these forums are supposed to be a place for constructive and high quality discussion and the ability to have that tarnished by an easy “dislike button” just because someone “does like” your idea not necessarily because it was not thought through or low quality but because they don’t like certain ideas brought to the table (I know WF players do that ALOT with any pvp discussion) can be very obnoxious and can steamroll out of control easily

I feel the like atleast now players can comment under a post with an explanation on why they don’t like something but even then that has holes…

I feel like the REAL problem with forums is how certain high quality discussions are removed or locked for no good reason meanwhile complete nonsense (as in the biggest BAITS ) gets left on here and sometimes even gets a developer response it’s kinda wild and to me disheartening on what a high quality forum is supposed to be like

I totally get you, the whole complaining posts that get toxic left untouched but real actual game discussion to possibly make things better etc insta locked, the answer is simple if the ideas are to good or fix something that the game can use to give you the solution by purchasing or something like that they don’t want that discussed.

[Zimzala]

Personally, I have watched the 'evolution' of gaming forum interactions since about 1998 and on BBS's previous to that.

If, in fact, 'the forums are going in the wrong direction', from my POV, they have been moving in the same direction since 1998.

Nothing posted on a video game forum has any real meaning, it's no different than a bunch of people in a bar, in Times Square, or at a sporting event, arguing over minutiae that they cannot control.

Gaming forum managers accept this simple fact and the evolution of the forum tools are based on that, IMO.

Why have a complex system of social interactions for the gamers playing your game outside of the game that means nothing? Why waste resources on arguments that have no real bearing on the game or it's direction?

For example, Hello Games (No Man's Sky) was really smart here - they just claimed the Reddit forum for their game was 'good enough'.

Now, I know DE and other gaming houses have convinced several player that they do have some outsized role in the creation and evolution of the games themselves, it's great PR, but it's smoke and mirrors. Why do I think this? I have been in direct contact with some of these game makers due to my professional proximity and we have had these conversations.

Do (game) developers, like any human, get inspiration form various areas, including game forums? Of course.

But that is a far cry from thinking these gaming forum posts have real value for the most part.

Why do you think when someone complains to someone like Rebecca, she will respond with "congrats, you beat WF" and then move on?

Now, extroverts often think that 'community' and the interaction with other players is 'all that matters' and I agree that is an important part of a game where you can play with others.

However, that does not give the game forums have any value beyond possibly being a place for people to find like minded people with whom to play the game. Nothing more. 

To conclude, in general, I think the issue is simply that several gamers are so full of their own steam that they really, truly think they can 'change the game' or 'change the gamers' though these types of forums and they desire the tools they think they need to make 'reputations' for themselves to be seen as 'influencers' to get a thrill and validation from 'upvotes', when, in the end, it means nothing except to stroke the egos of a few people that desire ego-stroking.

It's all hot air and wasted electricity - but it's really fun to watch minds evolve and learn to debate, so I hang out and poke fun at holes in peoples arguments.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

3 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

To conclude, in general, I think the issue is simply that several gamers are so full of their own steam that they really, truly think they can 'change the game' or 'change the gamers' though these types of forums and they desire the tools they think they need to make 'reputations' for themselves to be seen as 'influencers'

You mentioned “several gamers” in two separate paragraphs elaborate please.

[Zimzala]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

You mentioned “several gamers” in two separate paragraphs elaborate please.

I say 'several' so as not to paint with too wide a brush.

To say All or Most is not accurate IME.

Not everyone that posts on gamer forums is trying to change the world, just a subset.

[SneakyErvin]

I really cant care less about "reactions" aslong as I'm able to write and formulate what I want to say. Less "reactions" means less moderation and interpretation in the moderation that does happen. This also means less need for payed mods etc. which means less costs that go into the social platform, which is a win since it means those resources can get allocated elsewhere. 

Plus there is no way to know if the shape of the forums has anything to do with DE or simply the company that actually handles these forums. I cant remember which forum it was that I stumbled onto a while back that looks exactly the same as the WF forum minus the WF Baruuk/Mesa background. And it is the same deal with the constant log outs, it isnt on DE, since it is tied to the forum provider itself, which isnt DE.

Should we ask DE to find another forum provider? I guess we could but it is worth the fuzz all in order to maybe get some "reactions" enabled that really only cater to the generations that get upset that they must type... letters into words to express the same feeling?

[Pizzarugi]

52 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

While entertaining it was to haha, a disliking option isn't great because people just drop the dislike/downvote without expressing on why they dislike something.

Using words is much more impactful than dropping a negative number or sticker on a post

This.

Honestly I'm glad they got rid of the other vote options. If you like it, you like it. If you don't you either explain why or just move on.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

3 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I say 'several' so as not to paint with too wide a brush.

To say All or Most is not accurate IME.

Not everyone that posts on gamer forums is trying to change the world, just a subset.

I get you, but “several gamers” voicing their opinions got DE to review prime resurgence packs.

Also “several gamers” got DE once in writing and once on devstream to address the heirloom pack rubbish yes admittedly it probably won’t change but it was felt enough were it was addressed twice.

Edited October 5, 2023 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

You should revisit Region chat a few years back. Before the heavy handed moderators. Feels kind of the same...

[CrownOfShadows]

Even Youtube removed their dislike indicator. There's actual good and healthy reasoning behind limiting negativity.

I think it needs to be balanced, and shouldn't be stifling, but you do have to counter negativity, because as a social phenomenon negativity travels faster than positivity. Notice how 99% of all forum posts are just pure negativity.

Edited October 5, 2023 by CrownOfShadows

[Voltage]

The Forums have always been a way that only supports certain kinds of discussion. The other major thing to consider is that it only sorts comments chronologically.

Sure, I've gotten a reputation for my post quality and feedback, but also in regards to the timing of my posts. Even though it may seem that I "farm" reputation, I'm just voicing the opinions I would have anyway, just in a position where it's seen. I strive to make sure I'm bringing up concerns when I feel it's most relevant (given how old some issues are).

The direction the Forums are going in the way you're describing is more so due to how people comment and how it's moderated, not really the platform itself. Twitter and Reddit have their own platform issues, like Reddit only advertising the more "with the crowd" comments, not necessarily because they have the best points of discussion. 

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, German said:

So why are the forums slowly beeing stripped of all forms of ratings and "quick" reactions.

The devs mentioned and discussed it at the time: They wanted players to actually voice why they were for/against a topic, not just "downvote and navigate away" like many players had taken to doing.

If you disagree with something actually say something instead of just downvoting it.  They want discussion on the forums, not just a bunch of threads with one or two posts with a ton of different reactions.

Their thought process was even if you disagree with someones post if you can hold a conversation you might reach some compromise or understanding that just won't happen if you upvote/downvote and do nothing else.

1 hour ago, German said:

Up until recently, every person had a community rating which was essentially just a "like count". But still, it gave credit to people who have been playing a big role in the community (e.g. people like Voltage) and put some form of weight or impact on posts.

And again they removed this to further discussions.
They don't want people to go "Oh this person has 75K reputation, they must really know what they're talking about so their words mean more than the other person who only has 200 reputation!"

Sure it's there if you go looking for it, but in threads it doesn't matter at all.  There really is no point in knowing (or caring) about the reputation some poster has on the forums.  You should take their post on the topic in question and how its written into consideration, and not their posts on any other topic because who's to say where they got their reputation.

Beyond that it lead to some widespread reputation farming and alternate account upvoting of off-topic posts that were only a word or two and yet get 300+ reputation....and made it seem like the person was much more known/respected than they really were.

1 hour ago, German said:

any form of "disliking" or reacting negatively to a post was permanently removed.

And this was put in place because of the standard witch-hunts of "I don't like this person, I'll get a bunch of accounts to go through every single post they made and downvote them!"

It also lead to people who made it their entire persona to "downvote farm" and do pretty much nothing but sh!t post just to get downvotes instead of, you know, adding to the discussion on the forums like DE wants.

1 hour ago, German said:

It just seems like the forums are moving into a direction that is just anti-player and further limiting voicing oppinions.

How is it "anti-player"?
How is it "limiting voicing options"?

If anything it's just limiting the ability to drive by and upvote/downvote a post and leave and instead encourages discussions and further posts to be made to a thread instead.

DE's drive behind this has been to encourage more interactivity on the forums, and the reactions were limiting the conversations and posts on the forums compared to what was happening on the forums before reactions were implemented and what DE wanted.

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

I get you, but “several gamers” voicing their opinions got DE to review prime resurgence packs.

Also “several gamers” got DE once in writing and once on devstream to address the heirloom pack rubbish yes admittedly it probably won’t change but it was felt enough were it was addressed twice.

As I stated, it's not as if the developers never get ideas from the forums.

I realize there are people who think what they posted on the forums lead to changes.

IME, that's a great PR move, because the root cause for the changes probably came from other things, like watching revenue and direct feedback over why people leave the game, etc.

Just because the forums yelled and a thing got changed, does not mean the reason for the change was forums posters yelling, as much as they like to think that and as much as the developer, working their PR magic, will say such. Of course it will act as a data point, but to attribute causation is an assumption, IME.

The forums do not need any complex tools for liking/disliking posts, because in the end, it's all just hot air and wasted electricity. 

Just my opinion based on the facts I have at hand. I realize it is not the 'commonly held POV'. I'll live.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zimzala

[(PSN)Unstar]

Personally, I don't think anything meaningful has been lost; in fact, I would say these changes make the forums better.

2 hours ago, German said:

This then went on for a while until one day any form of reacting to a post has been completely removed and replaced with the single ability to "like" a post in the form of a heart, heavily limiting the democratic impact players could have on a post and the only way beeing to have your own post buried in a sea of other posts.

"Like" buttons make sense because they express something very clear: "The sum of what you said here, I agree with it, I second it."  It's the same as if each "Liker" posted exactly what has already been written, but in an easy, compact form.  Lots of utility here.

"Dislike" buttons cause problems because they express something incredibly vague.  "You said something I disagree with."  But which part(s)?  And why?  It's impossible to tell whether 5 "dislikes" means that 5 people see a compelling counter-perspective to your comment or that 5 people have dumb ideas.  Because of this, "dislikes" actually get robbed of any meaning they could possibly have and just become negative noise, a distraction.

Thankfully, the forum provides the ability to "dislike" in a much more productive way: if you scroll down a bit, it's incredibly unlikely that someone else hasn't already written a counter-post.  If you agree with that counter-post, "like" it.  Now not only have you left your "dislike", but it actually expresses context, and thus has value to the discourse.

And in the rare situation where you can't find a counter-post that you agree with, you have 2 options:

1. Take the time to write your own so the discourse can move in a positive direction.
2. Take 20 seconds to make a new post saying, "I disagree".  There, you made your own "dislike" button.

 

2 hours ago, German said:

Up until recently, every person had a community rating which was essentially just a "like count". But still, it gave credit to people who have been playing a big role in the community (e.g. people like Voltage) and put some form of weight or impact on posts.

I think the forum is better without this.  Discourse is at its most productive when we judge a comment based on the ideas being communicated; to add or subtract weight from words based on who's saying them invokes the ad hominem fallacy, which is counter-productive.  Kudos to the folks who removed this "feature".

Edited October 5, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
werding

[Zimzala]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Discourse is at its most productive when we judge a comment based on the ideas being communicated; 

I cannot hit the Like button hard enough for this.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Personally, I have watched the 'evolution' of gaming forum interactions since about 1998 and on BBS's previous to that.

If, in fact, 'the forums are going in the wrong direction', from my POV, they have been moving in the same direction since 1998.

Nothing posted on a video game forum has any real meaning, it's no different than a bunch of people in a bar, in Times Square, or at a sporting event, arguing over minutiae that they cannot control.

Gaming forum managers accept this simple fact and the evolution of the forum tools are based on that, IMO.

Why have a complex system of social interactions for the gamers playing your game outside of the game that means nothing? Why waste resources on arguments that have no real bearing on the game or it's direction?

For example, Hello Games (No Man's Sky) was really smart here - they just claimed the Reddit forum for their game was 'good enough'.

Now, I know DE and other gaming houses have convinced several player that they do have some outsized role in the creation and evolution of the games themselves, it's great PR, but it's smoke and mirrors. Why do I think this? I have been in direct contact with some of these game makers due to my professional proximity and we have had these conversations.

Do (game) developers, like any human, get inspiration form various areas, including game forums? Of course.

But that is a far cry from thinking these gaming forum posts have real value for the most part.

Why do you think when someone complains to someone like Rebecca, she will respond with "congrats, you beat WF" and then move on?

Now, extroverts often think that 'community' and the interaction with other players is 'all that matters' and I agree that is an important part of a game where you can play with others.

However, that does not give the game forums have any value beyond possibly being a place for people to find like minded people with whom to play the game. Nothing more. 

To conclude, in general, I think the issue is simply that several gamers are so full of their own steam that they really, truly think they can 'change the game' or 'change the gamers' though these types of forums and they desire the tools they think they need to make 'reputations' for themselves to be seen as 'influencers' to get a thrill and validation from 'upvotes', when, in the end, it means nothing except to stroke the egos of a few people that desire ego-stroking.

It's all hot air and wasted electricity - but it's really fun to watch minds evolve and learn to debate, so I hang out and poke fun at holes in peoples arguments.

Good to see you again. 

[Zimzala]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Good to see you again.