Warframe Story Pack Feedback Thread!

[moondog548]

On 2023-10-29 at 12:38 PM, Valkyrie9001 said:

I think that this route is going to hinder the game more than help it. I'll provide a few solutions, some not mutually exclusive. The reasons are because:

I think passing a paywall to newbies who don't know better, especially since we're currently unaware of the price, is a bad idea already, but also disrespectful to the immense amount of hard work that has been put into the game so far.

I understand people will be able to go back and play what came beforehand, but how many will do so for the story rather than just the rewards? Warframe's atmosphere and story is much of what has kept me around so long and it's already jumbled enough as it is nowadays without the CRITICALLY IMPORTANT Events issued back into the game (that should be).

Are people really going to understand just what the hell is going on if you do this? Doesn't that kind of defeat the point of, not the gameplay content, but the Quest itself if people are just going to be confused about and/or taken off guard by it?

Player retention might be difficult to maintain for a few reasons. The first would be a lack of guidance. This will only be made worse if this is the only solution we're chasing for this more subcategorical problem of new player accessibility. You know what's provided me guidance in my 10,000 hours of playtime? The Events that have introduced nearly all of the game's systems. These must be reintroduced as Quests. After that, it's a matter of reconfiguring the Junction Objectives and Quest Prerequisites so that the story lines up linearly as it has for veterans across the game's lifespan.

Ultimately, I don't think new players accessing new content is the problem. It's investing them so they get that far. I've started a new account on a Switch. It's not half as captivating now as it was for me then without all these patches of lore. The update cycle and growth of the game participated toward much of that feeling as well, but that's its own separate thing. However, if we're really insistent on doing this, here are my few solutions I suggest to you:

1. First and foremost, provide any kind of detailed synopsis for the events of the game up until this point.

2. Even doing that, the new content could be shocking and not representative of the game at all up until this point. Go the extra mile and make a few unique missions for new players, or better yet, a whole 'nother introductory Quest.

3. Follow the earlier proposed idea of redesigning the Events and Quests in order to provide a more holistic experience that will make players more than happy to head toward the new content. This will solve more than one, more than two MAJOR issues with the whole of the game.

Excellent insights and suggestions

[Dragoon]

I already posted once here laying out what the potential problems were, but the more I think about it the more I can't help but think how bad an idea this is. Looking over some of the other replies shows even more issues and possible solutions, but I found one that really stands out to me.

21 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Personally, I think the issue isn't that we need a "Story Skip" to unlock the new content.

I think the issue is we need a "Skip to Story" option

This is probably my favorite one. I play Warframe because it's a fun third-person action game with honestly one of the best movement systems in any game I've ever played, but I love story. I love lore, and waiting for Warframe story quests was always agonizing to me because I wanted them so bad. People have brought up great points in that it's not just lore being delivered to us - almost every story quest involves new gameplay mechanics (like the Operator and all they entail) that will be used in everything going forward. Skipping all that and being thrown in to the latest story quest? Forget the meme about how little Warframe tells the player and how much they use the Wiki, they'd be dropped in to the deep end with no gameplay experience in those facets whatsoever.

Another thing worth bringing up again is that the story quests honestly do not take that long to complete. It's the grind between them.

If we want to talk about actually skipping story though, I have to bring up a point I made in my first post. Warframe's story and quest lore is all messed up (particularly regarding Alad V and how we interact with him over the quests) because all those Operations that happened between quests have been entirely skipped for everyone else who wasn't there at the time. We don't see Alad getting infected or working on the Mutalist strand. We don't see him getting cured and owing us. Players in the last 3 years will have no idea about Scarlet Spear or Orphix Venon, or there actually, you know, being a war that The New War lacks, because it was in an Operation beforehand. Want to know how much sense some parts of the quests make, missing those interactions? Can you imagine expanding that to the entire story of the game so far?

I don't think a Skip mechanic would be a good idea. I think, like many others in this thread, that the grind needs to be lessened and the flow of story improved. We need the old Operations brought back as text inserts, Nora narrations, or even just back as actual mini-quests or mission nodes in their timeline on the star chart so that there's more story, not less! We need the lore properly established in the right order with incentives along the way (catalysts, reactors, etc.) to keep players immersed in the world while they go about having a blast shooting everything that moves!

I'm not a Founder, but I've been playing since 2016 and the fact that over THREE QUARTERS of the Operations stats on my profile are empty because they all happened before my time saddens me immensely.

I don't regret my time playing this game, and I've been playing for a long time. Warframe needs to continue improving the new player experience to the point where the story quests don't take 100 hours to get to, not skip the great stories that have already been told.

 

[TheArmchairThinker]

I'll be straight to the point

1. It makes people think the story might not worth playing or not enjoyable. This is the case with bungie selling story skip on another character because the story can be very unenjoyable to do it on three characters

2. It makes people think you make the story unenjoyable or hard on purpose to goad people into spending money (even if their end of problem/skill issue)

3. People will jump into "Warframe is p2w" narrative and we already have one jumping on it

I'd suggest not adding it because players would be lost if they don't go through the story. But it you really want to add skip option, add it for free but forfeits any rewards from the quest, requiring you to run through it for the rewards.

Another way to keep players from being lost is giving them the summary of said quest through cinematics (they're cool so add them please), bonus points if we see our fashion on it

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

I felt I should chime in, and point out that a lot of the narrative issues with The Jackal and The Sergeant could be fixed if they flipped their locations.

 

The Sergeant was originally intended to be Nef Anyo anyways, so making him the main boss of Venus is something thats been a long time coming, and just makes more sense in general for gameplay reasons. It also allows for him to be tied into the rest of the Venus storyline without distracting from it; killing him is purely for the benefit of the Solaris, and the detriment of Anyo.

 

As for the Lynx, putting it on Phobos could be used as a better explanation for why Phobos is in Corpus control instead of Grineer control; its purely business, one moon for one deathmachine. killing Lech and destroying the Lynx ensures that the Corpus and Grineer keep fighting eachother instead of making peace and threatening the rest of the system.

This makes a lot of sense. The Sergeant could be a good first boss for any new player in Venus. I have no problems swapping Rhino with Mag too considering Mag is a starter frame to begin with if we'll go with that. Plus isn't he planned to be reworked into a son or relative of Nef Anyo? It would be also a good introduction towards Corpus and a good resaon for the Corpus and Tenno to have a huge animosity with each other.

 

For Lynx, you mean Jackal? Either way, along with Lech it could go both ways but I can see a plot being formed involving those two.

[(PSN)SilentEcho999]

As someone who's done all quest Solo without any help or platinum to use as a shortcut, I think this could good but it can also be very bad.

10 years of content is definitely difficult to catch up on if you're a new player, so a few skips won't cause any harm if the price is fair number. A price you cannot use a coupon on as a double shortcut. 

The issue is here is that what makes Warframe good is its unique storyline and its already mostly unknown to alot of people specially newer players. Other than that its just constant grind for MR then just extra stuff to make a profit off of. So if there's gonna be a "skip" button which means they know absolutely nothing about the story behind those quest, then what's the point of catching if they're gonna be confused afterwards? Confusion and lack of understanding normally tends to make people quit games.

🔸️In my opinion, One of the solutions is to add a new page that has short stories behind each quest followed by maybe a few images for demonstration. Something accessible for everyone to read incase they skipped or its simply been too long since they played a quest that they forgot everything about it.

🔸️Another possible solution turning solo quests into multiplayer quests so newer players can be assisted by others if they got stuck somewhere.

🔸️Last solution (best one) that comes to mind is not adding a "Skip all" option but to add a "skip mission" button. If there's a tough to beat mission like a boss fight or defence (anything that requires a little bit of endurance) due to lack of mods and endo to make a decent Frame/Weapon/Companion build then it can be skipped to the next chapter of the quest while still being able to see the remaining cenimatics which let's be honest, it's the best part about Warframe. So no lore is being skipped. You'll have all the knowledge you need. 

 

Other than that, requirements to complete the starchart, open junctions between planets and acquiring more quests could be reduced.

 

You cant instantly teach newer players that they're gonna be catered for. That's never a good start. 🙂

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by (PSN)SilentEcho999

[-Nightwayfarer-]

Why do you want to give new players possibility to skip everything that made Warframe the game it is now?.

Guess the best way to speed up new players will be exactly speeding them up. The reason why quests take so long right now is timegates. You need craft 3,5 days a warframe, You need to lvl it up to get new mastery rank (the only step which is boostable now). You need wait 24 hours between ranking up. Timegates everywhere. Give them new kind of boosters, that they can buy once when they start the game, and it will set those timegates to something they can grow fast enough with until they are rank 8-10-12-14, whatever Whispers will require.

You gave us a wonderful story with those quests. You dont need to take it from new players.

Edited October 31, 2023 by -Nightwayfarer-

[voidfoxunknown]

From what i can gather alot of people are agenst the proposed idea of "story skip with plat" which i understand even though on switch i am mr 18 i have had 3 other's before this to understand the lore and Beauty of grind hard for the weapons u want grinding out the mod's, and then playing with other's to fight awesome battles, i love it too BUT for new player's (i.e. mr 1-10's) may find it hard to go out and grind out all the material like the older player's on al platforms, soo if people would humor me for a moment and consider the following: 

we could add an incentive to not do this, for example what is the one thing people want most after new war and so on? PLAT, now i'm not saying "flood the markets with plat to destabilize it" i'm talking giving 20 more soo new players can get sum more warframe and weapon slot's , because u can only buy one of each in the beginning and then if u want more u have to do either trading for primeparts to get plat or buy the plat and i'll be honest not everyone has the spare pocket money for it (*cough* mr/miss deep pocket's *cough*)

or option 2 we could add a bragging right's ephemera witch u can only get if u go through the grind and get caught up with everyone else, i would also recommend adding an in game link for new player's (which can be toggled off if not needed) which can send them to helpful guide's for items and videos, cause if anything i have found my self asking "where do i get this" or "where do i mine this at".

the idea with the dedicated links which will lead to trust worthy videos by the people for the people will probbably help new player's or refresh the minds of returning player's. 

hopefully i may have brought some good ideas to the table if not then  U SEE NOUTHING

Edited October 31, 2023 by (NSW)unknownvoidfox

[pythonxi]

Bungie is on the verge of implosion. If you don't fumble this, you're gonna be eating well in the mid to long term future, DE.

 

This message was brought to you by "Completely separate story quests from star chart progression" Gang

[NekroArts]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I'll be straight to the point

1. It makes people think the story might not worth playing or not enjoyable. This is the case with bungie selling story skip on another character because the story can be very unenjoyable to do it on three characters

2. It makes people think you make the story unenjoyable or hard on purpose to goad people into spending money (even if their end of problem/skill issue)

3. People will jump into "Warframe is p2w" narrative and we already have one jumping on it

I'd suggest not adding it because players would be lost if they don't go through the story. But it you really want to add skip option, add it for free but forfeits any rewards from the quest, requiring you to run through it for the rewards.

Another way to keep players from being lost is giving them the summary of said quest through cinematics (they're cool so add them please), bonus points if we see our fashion on it

If new players are having these thoughts, and only these thoughts, the moment they see the pay to skip they're stupid. I would give them a pass if it was there first rodeo with it, but not when they default to it because they listen to the stereotypes rather than thinking critically on their own.

 

Put genuine effort into playing devil's advocate with yourself when dissecting the subtext of paying to skip.

• The most obvious one: am I skipping for myself or am I skipping for someone else? If it's the latter, don't do it. High chances are they're jeopardizing your potential enjoyment for their own.
  • If I'm skipping for myself what are the benefits? I could be skipping bad story and unenjoyable gameplay and get to the better stuff.
  • What are the cons? I could be missing out on something I like to experience.

The last point should evoke doubts that the skip has gray meanings and not just black and white. "If it's good at its purest then why would they skip?" From your Bungie example, if I'm skipping the story for another character it's not because it's bad, but because:

• I've already played it and it's relatively fresh in my mind.
• I know how long it takes to finish so I ended up "losing" time to get them into the same spot as my first.
• I want to engage in content post campaign, that's where the meat is.

Knowing all that, if I have to justify playing the story content again on the other character because it's the "right way" I feel like I'm disrespecting myself. Granted, I'm not spending Silver to skip I'm just not going to play through the story again unless my "time" is open for it.

 

The skip is meant to serve for the gray perspectives, it got lost because other game studios ended up using it in bad faith thus players started to tie skips to that. For Warframe, new players need to put the effort into looking into what they could be missing out on and we (and I don't just mean the forums) need to be the ones to inform them in the most objective way possible.

[(PSN)rexis12]

As far as I am concerned this whole debacle is just this

The fact that the idea wasn't completely thrown out the moment it was uttered means that every single person in that Dev Stream was complicit.

 

[DrBorris]

58 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

As far as I am concerned this whole debacle is just this

So you haven't payed attention to the whole debacle or tried to understand any other perspectives.

Got it. 

 

I'm getting tired of repeating this, but the issue DE raises ISNT'T FIXED BY A PERFECT NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE. The issue this is trying to address is that any content wall, no matter the quality, while discourage some players from ever playing. Even if there were no "filler" content between quests that is dozens of hours. When a new update drops people want to play that content with with their friends right away. Dozens of hours could be multiple weeks for some people. 

It is also completely dismissing that there isn't a single correct way to enjoy the game. Having an actual progression curve is, for me, an integral part to the game's experience. Being rail-roaded through quest back-to-back would be terrible... for me. Everyone isn't me.

DE have been putting in the work with every major update since New War to smooth out the new player path, to insinuate that DE is doing nothing when a significant part of Abyss of Dagath's patch notes were dedicated to new player experience is downright ignorant. It isn't there yet, there are issues, but what I find interesting is that a way to make the experience better would actually be to lengthen it in some places. A more thorough tutorial, more world-building, that would take even more time. 

A pure skip that effectively deletes skipped content is, in my opinion, still a pretty bad idea. But having a way for new or even returning players to engage with new content when it is new is not a bad idea. There are plenty of potential issues, but the "lol, just make NPW better" takes just make yall look not smart. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)rexis12]

9 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Most of the criticisms I've seen levied in this thread could be subverted by going with the "come back to it later" approach

Come back to WHAT?! the gameplay that THEY KNOW will and HAS made players quit? AFTER spending money? Money that they can't refund due to how Plat Purchases work.

Don't kid yourselves, if DE gave a S#&$ about the 'wall' between starting players wanting to play the new shiny thing that makes players quit, they'd actually try to fix the wall with proper stairs and railing so that the new players can actually do it comfortably and get to the new Content before they quit.

Instead they're just giving you a lift to see the shiny thing and then shoving those new players back down the wall that makes Players quit. What you're gonna tell me that if a player quits near Venus because of the contents of Venus, seeing the new Whispers of the Wall is going to make them not hate the content wall that is Venus?

[DrBorris]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Come back to WHAT?! the gameplay that THEY KNOW will and HAS made players quit? AFTER spending money? Money that they can't refund due to how Plat Purchases work.

Don't kid yourselves, if DE gave a S#&$ about the 'wall' between starting players wanting to play the new shiny thing that makes players quit, they'd actually try to fix the wall with proper stairs and railing so that the new players can actually do it comfortably and get to the new Content before they quit.

Instead they're just giving you a lift to see the shiny thing and then shoving those new players back down the wall that makes Players quit. What you're gonna tell me that if a player quits near Venus because of the contents of Venus, seeing the new Whispers of the Wall is going to make them not hate the content wall that is Venus?

The new player experience is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be (in the ways it is being criticized). I've seen a lot of complaints about how the star chart is bloated with way too many nodes and that it takes forever to get through. I'm not sure what star chart yall are looking at, but most every planet is less than 8 nodes from one side to the other. Other than that, we have these apparent obscene grind requirements that are.... what exactly? A Venus content wall? I'm... um... what? What is on Venus that is a wall? Necramechs were absolutely a problem, but as of Dagath that is basically a non-issue. I don't think the new player experience is in a good place, but at this point I think the bloat is mostly fine, if anything it is the holes in tutorialization and world building that are hurting it. It needs more content, not less.

This whole "why would anyone play that" has a very similar vibe to the all too common "I don't actually want to play the game to get the rewards" (then complain about not having anything to play) comment cycle. 

And my suggestion is largely tied to this not being a paid option, but I did fail to mention that. In my opinion, having an easily accessible and free "skip to new" option for everybody would indirectly make far more plat than any skip ever would. 

 

Also, you conveniently forgot to address the issue at hand. You're up in arms about the new player experience, that's fair, I'm with you in spirit, but I do find it kinda funny that you ignore the first 3/4 of my post. You could at least hand-wave it away with "that's not a real problem, people wouldn't care to play 20-30 hours of a new player experience if it was good," but nah... we can't have on-topic discussion here. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by DrBorris

[LuckyCharm]

It's a weird thing to think anyone would skip the story grind as a new player. The only grinds needing to be removed are

a) mastery rank restrictions on quests etc. If an mr1 has made it up to the area just fine if theyve say.. bought a prime frame pack, they should just be able to do the quests. Its an arbitrary restriction thats there for almost no reason. 

B) weapon and warframe slots. Like i get it  yall wanna make money. Would it really cut your bottom line that much to give newbies say 5 frame slots and 15 or so weapon slots to start with? We've got like 55 frames now and probably around 400 or more weapons. Feels bad seeing just how many slots you need, thats the real turn off for the game when as a new player you really see those dollars tick up in your head calculating just how much you'll have to pay if you want everything. 

C) and would it really hurt to just give them a better starting gun than the braton after 10 years. I know youre selling power but we've got so many middle of the road basic weapons now, its insane thinking that after so long newbies are still forced to use such weak equipment and then be expected to farm everything else. 

D) its also silly that with so many frames to pick from, one extra hasnt been added to the starting 3. Oberon would make the perfect starter frame, as would rhino, or frost. Theres no tanky frame in the 3, and with how much of a pain the jackal is to fight now with weak gear, itd be just as annoying to farm the frame there too. Assuming you could get the resources needed before say.. mars. New frames to pick from would just add to that feeling of playing it your way. 

 

Fix all that, add some actual tutorials, and you wouldnt need skips to keep people playing 

[Emwue]

1 hour ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Don't kid yourselves, if DE gave a S#&$ about the 'wall' between starting players wanting to play the new shiny thing that makes players quit, they'd actually try to fix the wall with proper stairs and railing so that the new players can actually do it comfortably and get to the new Content before they quit.

Just for the benefit of others, since you seem to be set in your opinion of "DE bad" to the extend that I doubt it will change your stance about this issue, they have, in fact, worked on that for the past year at the least to the point that the experience I had starting back in May, doesn't even exist in the game anymore and every single update since I started had also improved the new player experience in some capacity, including the current one too.

In fact, watching something like Josh Strife Hayes' review of Warframe in 2021 left me baffled at how he even gave Warframe a good review, given that his early game experience looks way worse than mine.

Genuinely, looking at some old videos of people starting up in Warframe and comparing them to my start(which, reminder, that's already different than what people starting the game right now experience) I'm fairly sure the new player experience is what have changed the most in last 2 years in Warframe.

So, when Rebb is saying they are going to continue to improve the new player experience, it is *very* easy to believe her, simply because they have been "walking-the-walk" instead of just saying that, for at the least past year and a half now.

But do go on.

[OrionHisSon]

I have a few accounts, across various platforms, and I was able to grind out everything within 6 months.

If people want to waste money on a story-skip with no value, then so be it. I'm a story/lore wh***, and warframe's story is important to me. Plot-holes aside, every event and person has a meaning behind it.

 

[DrBorris]

16 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

It's a weird thing to think anyone would skip the story grind as a new player.

Some people are weird.

But I think the more interesting group is the group that wants to play but feels daunted. The ones that see cool shiny stuff and have friends who are playing shiny stuff, but are too daunted by 10 years of content (quality being irrelevant) to make the investment. 

 

I don't think DE should cater to the people who don't want to play everything leading up to the new content, that type of short-term gratification just ain't gonna work with Warframe's content structure. But I think that group of daunted people could very well become long term players if they were given the ability to jump in with everyone. I think way too much of this thread has focused on the specific idea proposed by Reb and not enough looked at the problem.

Nowhere was it implied that people didn't want to play the content, rather that they don't want to do it first. I think this motivation came through far clearer in the Devstream, the OP got to the point a bit too quick and did the noob mistake of focusing on a specific implementation of a concept rather than emphasizing the concept (something most of us who post here have long learned). Rather than put themselves in DE's headspace, people are creating rationalization based on the proposal.

 

All this is why I think, given the issues stated here and in the Devstream, a free "skip it for now" option is the way to go. I'll keep it brief as I have a ranty version of this on the first page, but basically utilize the Duviri loaner weapon mechanics to give players a decent arsenal and separate its progression path in a way not all too dissimilar to Duviri. I am actually strongly opposed to any story recap, a person who is jumping to new content isn't doing it because they wanted a TL;DR of the story, it was for the new content. If they want the story, they should play the story. Obviously narratively it won't make sense, but that's a far smaller sacrifice than the potential of deflating 10 years of narrative in an inevitably insufficient lecture. Despite having a strong narrative Warframe is gameplay first, I don't think narrative question marks will ruin the gameplay. 

Embrace the skip as an in medias res. 

Let the new player come in, be confused by wally, see lots of new shiny and explosions, and once they've had their fill of the new content start working their way through the old, see how we got from an ugly old guy with a gold key to eldritch horrors. Once they play through up to the new content the two "paths" will merge. I think it is imperative that a person who skips looses nothing. There is a massive FOMO wall to "skip this and never get the experience ever again" that will lead to people not skipping that might enjoy the game more if they could have the communal experience. This type of mechanic has the potential to bring the community together for content drops in a way we've never seen. There are many, many, many "lost" players who don't return because the know they have a bunch of stuff to do, I think the game would be better if those players could be brought into new content despite them "skipping" some stuff. 

[mactrent]

In brief: I'm OK with a story skip, but I don't think it should be paid.  There's plenty of other things to pay for in WF, but paying to play (or to skip) the story doesn't match the balance I've come to expect from Warframe's monetization strategy.

Long-form:
Thank you DE for your openness.  We forum-posters have always been the vocal minority, but I'm glad you asked for our input on what could be a pretty major change.   Sorry for the folks who aren't so civil.

There's been good effort on improving the new player experience - the recent updates have removed some gates, softened others, and given more new-player-accessible explanations to complex systems.  I hope to see this trend continue in any case!

I also very much liked the idea of the Duviri Path, where players got a new way to begin their Warframe journey.  I can understand that it was scrapped because new players were then "dumped into normal Warframe", which was pretty different from what they saw in Duviri.  I hope that if/when there's more of a bridge between the two, this can come back as an option.

What I don't like is that while this was presented as very much "under consideration", the first we are hearing directly on this topic is a "pay with plat" suggestion.  You're obviously working on other paths to the same goal of getting new players up to speed, but I was expecting even more on that front before we reach for that "pay with plat" as a solution.  There are plenty of items to buy with plat - WF needs to make money somewhere, and adds more items that can be purchased with each update - but when it comes to the story experience, I'd expect that to continue to be free, whether it's all in order or if folks can skip around.

My suggestions:

1. Story skip?  Free.  The current missions serve as both story and tutorial for the mechanics of the operator, drifter, archwing, mech, and railjack.  If folks don't care about experiencing the story in a given order (or don't care about it at all), I say... make a streamlined tutorial for each of those items, and let that substitute for completion of the quest.  If you're trying to cater to folks who don't want to do the story (or at least, not right now), then make the story truly optional.  They can always circle back to it.
2. What about gear?  Paid options, obviously.  We already have the choice of buying or grinding for each item once the quest unlocks it for us.  If players want to rush the Operator tutorial before they get to that point in the story, and buy an amp rather than grind one... then that's fine, I have no objection.
   Maybe give them a freebie or a "loaner" item so they won't be totally underpowered in the time it takes them to earn better gear, if they go that route.  Not every Tenno has to experience the early gameplay the way I did.

Edited October 31, 2023 by mactrent

[Onyxtraz]

I've read the comments to integrate all these important points to the thoughts i already had about this.
Normally i never spend such time just for a comment, but i see this like some kind of possible turning point in WF, for the best or for a reaaally slippery slope.

So after reading almost these 15 pages of comments & thoughts on this topic, first here's my sum up of key points. Then my recap of key points and a list of suggestions (mines and people's) considering all of these.

 

FIRST a recap of the clearest or most helpful messages of each points of view.

( Italic+bold type = what i consider as especially relevant, organized &/or pertinent)
 

        System suggestions

• p1    BraveDude8 ->Not a "Story Skip", but a "Grind Skip". A "Story Acceleration" pack that gives the player all of the requirements they need for the main story quests, or waives them outright.
• p1    balckillofdeath -> too high costs -> BraveDude8's way
• p1    DrBorris    -> Using paths in a Duviri(sh) way with two separate silos of progression and allow to swap between their "new content" and "personal progress" paths at will. "New content" with 'rental' gear mechanics to play with decent gear and grind some of their own new stuff, the other with their own stuff from "personal progress" .
• p2    Heal        -> Getting to play the replaybable story quests with preprovided inventory & loadout in chronological order to experience the lore & quests while heavily reducing the grind. Then later making the progression through the main story more clear and accessible.
• p2    PublikDomain    -> How players feels the mechanics, what bother them, and ways to solve some major keys that induce the huge grind.
• p3    Stormandreas    -> A "Story Only" mode with loaned equipment. [though, doing so would in fact require that it unlocks these steps of the story and gives the quest completion rewards accordingly to make sense and gain time as intended].
• p5    (XBOX)JHodges0845 -> Recap of community solutions AND how introducing someone to the game REALLY feels on the long run for someone who stay.
• p10    vampiru94    -> Instead of offering story skip options, you could provide temporary free access to the new expansion for all players, say, for a month. (with default loadouts and steps to achieve to keep them after the month. If steps not done, suggestion to buy the appropriate packs)
• p10    SeigneurSauron    -> Respect toward the work done and the time players invested in the game => no skips. Aiming to lessening the farm & grind aspects to achieve the primary goal of this suggestion.
• p11    yarl5000    -> Aim of the function, and Codex restructuration
• p12    RLanzinger    -> Quests UI
• p13    SilentMobius    -> Rather than make it "pay to skip" make it like an eternalism "Time break" where you get a summary and the stuff but you get a specific guide-list of things you need to "fulfil your timeline" and when you complete those and "earn" the things that were previously given to you "out of order" you get given things (like rivens, forma, catalysts, slots) as alternate, one time, rewards. Meaning that the Plat expenditure isn't made irrelevant by going back to earn the thing in question.
• p13    Synitare    -> Instead of a "Story Skip", make it a TRUE Efficient "Starter Pack" (Starter frame lvl30+6built forma+some efficient weapons+RJ with some intinsic+Necralvl30+useful mods+endo and a tutorial for modding and using Endo,...)
• p14    Archwizard    -> "Skip to Story" option instead of "Skip Story"
• p12    (PSN)Worta696    -> Review of TRUE requirements and suggestions on how to alleviate them.
• p12    shut        -> GREAT recap of real spending time with graph + comparison to other game's systems.

        Feelings and approaches

• p1    2wentyThre3    -> Induced economy and feeling about it
• p2    _Illindi_    -> Value about taking time to experience something
• p3    (PSN)ChaoticDoomOfBob -> Reminder of what such feature would imply and suggestion to approach this differently.
• p4    Petroklos    -> Skipping = lessening the impact of upcoming content AND lessening the value of the work done to make all the skipped content.
• p4    (PSN)rexis12    -> If a new player were to skip up to Whispers in the Wall and finish the quest... then what?
• p6    mrgudveseli    -> There is no need for "skip", there is a need to fluent and quicker learning instead of all in trials and errors.
• p6    DecadeX        -> What a skip induces and why wanting it in the first place? Wouldn't there be lot better ways to adress the original intention?
• p12    -Krism-        -> His own recap of key points as to why this feature is a bad idea
• p12    Hexanaticious    -> an accelerated beginning option instead of a skip, comparison to other games using similar methods, and hopes for futures decisions from DE.
• p14    DawnoftheWhiteFury -> Review and list of facts about how WF works & realistic hypothesis behind the reasons given about this feature, and what it would generate...

        Feelings said more or less bluntly, but clearly showing what could go wrong with the approach and needing caution

• p3    -Krism-        -> The kind of feelings induced by approaches like "pay-to-skip"
• p10    Roble_Viejo    -> the concept of buying progression
• p11    (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan -> Good recap of the feeling induced by "skipping"

 

 

SECONDLY the key points in this

-The very meaning of this feature is to make recent content accessible for new players, and encourage them to come play WF (and preferably on the long run, not one purchase, 2h of playing and bye). Thus:

• -New players who just want to play the new content could experience it right away.
• -New players who want to play with their long time player friends can do so.

-It require Vor’s Prize for basic game understanding, and The New War for story reasons.

Questions induced:

-A lot of big main quests that will be skipped and mastery tests done through playing are in fact the immersive way to teach the player how to play and use features (archwings, operators, amps, Focus Schools etc...). For "The New War", you need a Railjack, a Necramech, and an Amp. How to adress this since the new players won't know how to use them, and not even what these are?

-If this feature goes with the use of plat:

• -won't it go from "WF is really a game that can be enjoyed for free" (which is a noble approach which, in fact, motivate players to invest because they respect this unique and ethic economic way) to "To access the New stuff, either you grind 100h-200h or you pay", which can be quite a slippery change of approach. In the end, people will tend to sum this up to "pay to play/win".
• -what will be the price range? (Basic stuff required for New War: railjack 400plat + necramech voidrig 375 + archwing 175 = 950 (+ base damage mods & crit chance mods at half of max rank + A basic Amp. All of these are required to have basic stuff usable. If we add the value of story-skipping and some other stuff? Yeah, that will become very pricey very quickly, won't be bought, and probably will have a bigger effect of driving new players away instead of attracting them).
• -ensuring it won't be the beginning strong pushes (nor intrusive ones) to buy plat.
• -How far will this go? Main quests? + absolute required stuff (Necramechs, railjacks, Amps)? + Stuff necessary to make previous requirements useful (MODS, focus schools, companions, Arcanes...)?
• -Will players who just pay to skip will still be invested in the game after the quest to keep playing?

-Will new players even be able to keep up in the new content if they just skip everything to get there or will the new content be even further tuned down to make it easier for them?
-Invested players already have a tough time to understand a lot of mechanics and key-points due to the lack of proper explanations/tutorials
(about How to mod stuff? ; How does armor, shields & overguards works? How critical hits & Status works? What are the elemental damages, and how to combine them? What is the use of the companions and how? What is affinity range? How do these "Tenno schools" works and how to level it up? How could know how/where to try my arsenal? Etc...)
and content addition over the years. To the point that anyone immersed in playing & understanding the game NEEDS to go search community knowledge on the web or being lucky enough to find a mentor.
    ->So, while a full course of playing the game is already vastly lacking to understands the "how" and "what should i aim to do what i want", how someone skipping all the steps that gives a basic understanding of features could possibly make it? He'll feel completely overwhelmed and won't feel in touch or immersed with anything, so he'll leave.

Important thoughts:

- You shouldn't be taxed to play with a friend after being attracted to te game thanks to him.
    ->Asking for payment after someone has added to the player base is innappropriate and greedy.
- Adding a "Story Skip" is an insult to your own hard work. Moreover, it will halve the impact and richness of the story for those who would use such function.
- As it is, Warframe IS a game working on grind. That's an aspect that artificially extend the playing time, but at the same time is one of the most frustrating point of the game.
Were you to implement a "Story skip", once the purchase made and the new quest finished, will the new player stay and invest more on the long run when he'll discover that the game by essence works by grind? Or will he leave? If it's the 2nd, then maybe the efforts were put toward the wrong audience at the cost of the good one. Then, the "skip option" isn't a solution for the problem, and alleviating the high grind parts AND improving the visibility of where the player should go to complete his objectives would be a true solution.
- If there is a skipping option, the overall quality of experience of matchmakings will decrease since all the people skipping won't have decent stuff and even if they had, wouldn't know how to use it.
- If Warframe have 10 years of content, not all of it are mandatory to play the most recent parts. Someone knowing what he was doing succeded to go to The New War from a new account in 15 hours. It shows that it's mostly the guidance that is lacking plus an exessive grind on a lot of stuff (this guy knew what he was doing. A new player would need guidance and good equipment to do something similar in 3x this time).
- Never once heard of any new player expressing the desire to skip Warframe's story. It's the grind & the feeling of being lost that push people to leave.
- This is a poor business decision in the context of how DE make money off of Warframe, since it's by getting players hooked via building upon a foundation more and more overtime, tempting players further and further to spend money on the game as they continue to see customization options shown to them over time.
- Allowing this option, you are pitting TWO groups of tenno against each other in the future STORYWISE, the old "we know it all, give us more depth" tenno and the "meh i know kinda whats going on i guess, but can we keep it understandable and easy to follow please?" tenno.

Comment from "shut" showing extremely well what actually takes time for a player:

Le 29/10/2023 à 04:31, shut a dit :

This about sums up my experience with getting friends to play the game (video link, which I'm sure has already been shared a bunch in this thread).

WF has a heavy time investment requirement for progressing through the main questline, which is incompatible with many would-be-players out there for infinitely many valid reasons. Implementing an option to speed through ~10 years' worth of content to get to the shiny new stuff would greatly improve accessibility if done right, and the subsequent influx of new players enjoying the best of what Warframe has to offer will be good for literally everyone involved (new players, old players, and devs alike).

HOWEVER: I don't think that skipping quests outright is the best solution for this. Warframe's cinematic quests (ESPECIALLY The New War) contain some of the most memorable and iconic moments in the entire game, and the time commitment for doing the quests themselves is quite small compared to the time investment required for simply unlocking them. As a very very VERY approximate visualization of what I mean, here's what I imagine this time investment might look like for a new player starting Warframe in 2023 and playing through the end of Whispers in the Walls:

My problem is that DE's currently proposed solution (i.e. paying to skip the red+yellow wedges to get to the green) is that the yellow (i.e. cinematic quests such as The Second Dream + The War Within + The Sacrifice + The New War, and arguably less-cinematic-but-still-important quests such as Chains of Harrow) is really, really, REALLY DAMN GOOD in terms of production quality and general appeal. Just as importantly, IMO, is that the cinematic quests provide important story context that is arguably necessary to understand and appreciate what newer cinematic quests will involve.

IMO, a better solution would be to let the player skip the red wedge (i.e. the core gameplay loop of grinding -> crafting/modding/etc to get stronger -> grinding more, until all quest/Junction prerequisites are satisfied), but not the entirety of the yellow. Skip the tens of hours of grind that would otherwise pad out the logical prerequisites for the new content, but not the logical prerequisites themselves (since that would rob players of essential background knowledge). For example, a brand-new player who takes this option would experience the game as something like:

1. TUTORIAL (Awakening + Vor's Prize)
2. The following, to be completed in no particular order:
   • THE MAIN QUESTLINE (Natah* -> Second Dream^† -> War Within -> Chains of Harrow* -> Apostasy Prologue -> The Sacrifice -> Prelude to War)
   • "VEHICLE" TUTORIALS (The Archwing**, Rising Tide**, Heart of Deimos^††)
3. THE NEW WAR
4. ANGELS OF THE ZARIMAN*
5. WHISPERS IN THE WALLS

* Could be relegated to a short expository text window or something, instead of having to complete the quests in their entirety
** Could be relegated to a single 1 mission long tutorial on how to use a borrowed Railjack and Archwing
^† Unlocks access to Cetus, Fortuna, and the Necralisk along with their accompanying quests; none of which are essential to progress the main storyline
^†† Only really here to introduce important characters prior to Whispers in the Walls, and so the player isn't seeing a necramech for the first time during The New War

The key is to maximize engagement while minimizing time investment, so this could probably be condensed even further. It would help a lot to sprinkle in some goodies in between these prerequisite quests-- e.g. instantly unlocking the other two "tutorial warframes" (e.g. Mag and Volt if they picked Excalibur) + some weapons with less "conventional" mechanics (e.g. Miter? Arca Plasmor? Zymos? Glaive?) + some pre-leveled mods-- to make sure that the player feels adequately rewarded and engaged as they progress.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~~ TL;DR ~~

• Maybe don't give the option to skip literally every single quest prior to Whispers in the Walls. Important story and gameplay knowledge would be missed, causing the player to feel overwhelmed by WitW.
• Instead, give the option to simply unlock only the most essential tutorials+quests, in sequence. This prevents <insert newest quest here> from being nonsensical and jarring for players, while also eliminating ~>90% of the time spent on the "grind" (i.e. the core gameplay loop) that would've been required to unlock it.
  • The result is a simple, streamlined experience that teaches new players everything they need to know while letting them experience the best story content WF has to offer. And, of course, saving them tens to hundreds of hours.
• During this "streamlined experience", periodically reward the player with a variety of fully-crafted equipment (e.g. the other two tutorial warframes? some weapons with interesting, unconventional mechanics? pre-leveled essential mods?) to maximize engagement while minimizing time requirements and mental load.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Buuuuut, don't take my word for it! Other games already have solutions to the issue of story content being locked behind tens/hundreds of hours' worth of the "core gameplay loop". The one that I'm the most familiar with (and, IMO, the most relevant to Warframe's situation) is:

  Révéler le contenu masqué

~~ MONSTER HUNTER FRANCHISE ~~

For those unfamiliar, Monster Hunter is a PVE loot grinder that locks content behind a series of story quests (which themselves merely punctuate extended periods of the "core gameplay loop", very similarly to Warframe). Whenever a major DLC drops that unlocks new storylines+maps+monsters (e.g. the Iceborne and Sunbreak expansions for the previous two games), nearly all aspects of that DLC are locked behind completion of the main story of the base game.It's worth noting that Monster Hunter tends to be far less story-focused than Warframe. 

In order to give the option to speed through the base game and get to the DLC faster, Capcom gives players easy access to the Defender Armour Set and Defender Weapons-- which, basically, are reasonably powerful equipment with virtually zero crafting cost that removes the necessity for pre-DLC grinding. This lets the player progress through the main story very quickly, without actually skipping the main story and missing out on valuable context for the DLC.

• However, players are still expected to actually complete prerequisite story quests before accessing the new stuff. Otherwise, the story "continuing" based on things that the player has never experienced, as well as the difficulty spike, would be so jarring that it would sour the experience.
• It's worth noting that the Defender Set is free for all players regardless of whether players purchased the DLC or not. But the core games are not free-to-play to begin with, so the monetization scheme isn't super relevant to how DE will handle it in Warframe.

 

 

 

CONCLUSION WHILE CONSIDERING ALL OF THIS:
 

A "Skip Story" option as it were described would be a no-go.
It would only push player's perception of the game a lot closer to the "pay to play/win" concept, and the monetary value of such function would either be way too high to be considered, or would make the buyers of other packs (Necra, RJ, etc...) feels scammed.
And in the end, even if all were to miraculously go well, the player base targeted by this "Skip-pack" and using it will be entirely overwhelmed after completing the new content, won't feel any link or immersion to anything, will discover the grindy aspect of Warframe and leave (instead of being bit by bit addicted to it by all it's qualities).
So instead of a cheap cheat-skip that will halve the experience of the game and the perception of value about all the work done by DE on these quests, let's think it the wise way:
What bother new players? The Grind. And something that can tire Veteran players? Helping (sometimes to the point of babysitting them) new players again and again, doing the same thing way too many times.
Solution? Reducing the grind, polishing mechanics, making the progression more fluent and ordering the codex & quests.
The Grind is by essence an artificial way to extend the time spent playing a game. Now that WF have 10years of additions & reworks, there's plenty enough of content to play, making all this old tedious ways of grinding way too much. Here's some polishing suggestions, then some alternate ways to adress the issue aimed:

Polishing suggestions:

- Reducing the overall hardblock MR requirements (for a lot of weapons, Rivens, etc...) (and remove it completely for quests)
- Reducing grind and craft times on lower MR gear
- Remove the access conditions of junctions.
- Increasing the rewards of the story quests, like orokin reactors , important mods, materials, and other stuff as guaranteed rewards so they can get a headstart.
- Increasing drop rates and/or altering drop tables
- Giving more continuity and/or logical structure to the quests. Even if some parts are intertwined between realities, as it is lots of parts are given out of order or context, worsened by old events that played major roles in the overall story, requiring to search OutGame content (community-ran wiki's and youtuber's videos) to be able to understant and link most of it.
- Making in the Stellar chart some highlight of the road through the main quests, at least until the second dream.
- Adding old temporary story arcs as optional missions to be able to experience it too (Wolf of Saturn Six, Arlo, Nihil, etc...).
- Giving starting players just a bit more slots (strict minimum +3WF slots & +4 weapons slots) to lessen the early frustration and allow them to taste a bit more of the good sides of the game, having opportunity to grow fond of it and finally making them more inclined to stay and invest in it. It will allow them to understand that they will be able to gain plat later by themselves too, which will make them enter your buisiness funnel.
- Adding some kind of tutorial/explanations missions & tips about basic and important knowledge through the game. Essentials shouldn't have to be learned outside the game.
    -> as mentioned higher: Modding ; How armor/shields/overguards works ; Critical hits, Status, Elemental damages, Combinations, Companions, Affinity range, "Tenno schools" & Focus Lens, Learning that the Simulacrum exists, What is and how to acquire Corrupted mods? How to use Dragon Keys? etc...
- Making the codex more fluent, easy-to-use. Especially the "how to acquire stuff" parts:

• -adding to the Prime frames descriptions some icons of each parts which, when highlighted by the cursor, would show the list of relics containing it ;
  adding some lines of text to give an idea as to where these can be obtained would be great if technicly reasonable.
• -if the previous point were done, adding the location hints lines to codex library of relics
• -adding similar hints for the weapons & companions acquisitions

- Turn Steel Path into a personal modifier so newbies and veterans aren't segregated.
- Removing the Necramech requirement, add a few father voice lines to new war where he send You a Nechramech to help for those specific sections if you don't own yours.
- Removing the Railjack requirement by providing a pre-built Railjack in the quest if none owned. It would pick the player interest to craft Them later to access the rewards it offers.
(would require to rework need to break the Crystal in the anomaly node since that requires a good RJ setup. A good way to do it would be to turn this requirement into a small mission quest for Veil Proxima so people don't have to craft & improve theirs just to unlock the next steps of the story.)
- Include some kind of rewards for replaying skipped quests.
- Adding a new specialised Tier on radiant relics: would need an item ("Void cristals?") hard but certain to obtain. From Liches/Sisters rewards, we would get an "Incomplete Void cristal". When used on a radiant relic, you'd choose a specific loot. Then it would have 50% chances for the player using the relic of getting another choice of loot at the opening of the relic containing the selected loot. From Archon's rewards, we'd get a "Perfect Void Cristal" which ensures at 100% to have the additional choice for the player ("Cristal radiant relics" would become untradable of course).

- Since the game would in fact become less tedious & grindy, each old steps will take considerably less time. It could be a good mark of appreciation towards the old players who played it the hard way to offer them something nice & exclusive (a WF skin & a Syandana, stuff like that, which would be given to all players who have an account the day of the update).

 

ALTERNATE SOLUTIONS about the Story-Skip feature:

- A "Starter pack" that gives the player all of the requirements they need for the main story quests, or waives them outright.
(the choice of a Starter frame lvl30 + 6 built forma + some efficient weapons + RJ with some intinsic + Necramech lvl30 + useful mods + endo) (a tutorial for modding and how to use Endo would be most appropriate if such packs were to me added)
- Using paths with two separate silos of progression in a Duviri(sh) way, allowing to swap between paths "New content" and "Personal progress" at will.
"New content" with 'rental' gear mechanics to play with decent gear and grind some of their own new stuff, the other with their own stuff from "Personal progress" .
- A free "Story Only" mode with loaned equipment to bypass the strict requirements (Necra/RJ/Amp...). Would allow to unlock quest conditions locks very, very quickly to be able to access newer content while learning essential mechanics and the story through the quests.
- Providing temporary free access to the new expansions for all players, say, for a month. (with default loadouts and steps to achieve to keep them after the month. If steps not done, suggestion to buy the appropriate packs).
 

 

Adding an alternative feature in a proper and clean way for december would be way too rushed. (exept maybe the "Starter Pack"?)
It would be better to implement this on the next update to do it in an immersive and fluent way instead of a basic "pay plat to acquire a pack of stuff you won't know how to use and be overwhelmed with in the middle of nowhere" way?

If a way to experience the new content first were made nonetheless, barging in without having experienced the previous quests should be made with high cautious and ingenious steps story-wise (imagine how bad it would feel to begin the viewing of "Lord of the Rings" by the 3rd film ? The experience, understanding of the story and it's rythm would be a complete mess, without any immersion from the spectator).
A good approach to adress this (from a narrative point of view) could be something Matrix-like: we barge somewhere where we don't understand what's happening nor the reason behind some strange stuff that occurs around us. We meet important key characters (in Matrix, Trinity, Morpheus & Agent Smith, here Albrecht Entrati and others), but don't understand their part in all of this yet. Then, later when we dig in (here when the player will do the quests that would have been kept for later, NOT SKIPPED), we begin to understand and become more and more interested by the story.

 

Important Side-note about the parity for stores:

Tennogen content being buyable only with money and not plat on PC is already quite unpopular (most of the PC players i know just don't touch it for this very reason).
What's great about the platinum economy system is that it's core stand with paying players, but extand to all the playerbase, making everything really accessible for any player who could want it. It will just takes time and care. Paying the Plat make the  gains a lot quicker and bigger for the player, and sustain the economy and income for DE.

TennoGen's PC's paying system goes agains that (same goes to Regal Aya). For both the pack is always WAY too pricey compared to what it worth (a Helmet cosmetic DON'T worth 6$, and a frame standart skin DON'T worth 7$. It can cover half of the price (or even full price) of full games...).
While Plat have the nice coupons systems (with  25/50/75% off) to be able to buy virtual content at honest prices and imply all the player base. Even if the price paid is greatly reduced at first, it induce the players to actually spend money and buy stuff, and even if it makes harder to follow which investment of money for plat is used on what and when,  the final amount of money spent will be higher.

If while doing the parity, you'll choose "TennoGen = $" instead of "Tennogen = plat", a lot of the console players will be quite angry, pushing them to not buy these anymore, while the "Tennogen = plat" will keep the console players satisfied AND make a lot PC player really happy, inciting them to actually spend money to buy more plat.

(To DE) Objectively, you have all the real stats and numbers of each economic systems (Plat, Tennogen by $, Tennogen by Plat, Regal Aya, Prime Packs & Special packs like "Heirloom"). You know what stuff brings more money. Just please don't forget to include the time criterion to use and understand these numbers the best way.
(for example were I had to choose PC or Console Tennogen payment, i'd be curious to compare the total amount of Tennogen purchases through the past 3 or 5 years from PC compared to Consoles. Then consider the number of player on each and do the maths to put them on an equal base of number of players. Then see the results.)



(if i made disturbing grammar mistakes, don't hesitate to tell me and I'll fix it. But please do ignore the minor ones. English isn't my native language, and it already took quite some time to write this ^^)

Edited November 1, 2023 by Onyxtraz
page layout

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Also, you conveniently forgot to address the issue at hand

 

6 hours ago, Emwue said:

Just for the benefit of others, since you seem to be set in your opinion of "DE bad" to the extend that I doubt it will change your stance about this issue, they have, in fact, worked on that for the past year at the least to the point that the experience I had starting back in May

And the issue with this, and why I didn't deem to actually 'address' it is simple.

Instead of them continuing with this, instead of more post posts or dev talk about them streamlining the process or whatever you want to call it.

They suddenly decided to come out and say "#*!% it, we want you to PAY to skip the content that we know is actively pushing players away due to us continuously working on to make it better." Like the fact that there's 'internal debate' instead of 'immediately veto'd due to the effort already done for the new player experience' means that all these cuddly talk is worthless.

Like they are actively trying to make it better, why waste developer time and effort on a story pack when even the infinitesimal dev power used for this could've been used to... I dunno make a 5 minute quest that explains disruption or something.

It's the kind of 'were trying our best, but we see that it takes actual effort so screw it we want you to PAY to Skip' that making me go 'DE Bad' because all this is is greed, and the fact that it's being considered as Whisper of the Wall is coming closer is just bad timing.

Like hell, what's going to happen when Whispers of the Wall happens and it somehow releases on Railjack levels of broken? New Players first experience is that the game wants you to play to skip most of the gameplay for the new shiny, and the new shiny barely functions.

7 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Venus content wall?

I said Venus Content, imagine you're a New Player skipping to the Whispers of the Wall and seeing all that flashy new gameplay and lore and character talking with each other that new missions have, and then suddenly you get sent back to repeatable generic boring missions that, besides Fortuna, have like no plot and you simply do things because you do things. And that's assuming a New Player doesn't accidentally hit the walls of Cetus and Fortuna bounties thinking THATS the progression route, because that's still an issue even with the inbox emails.

[VykDragostief]

I confess I have not read the posts on this thread, I'm just posting my idea (to the risk of redundancy) for the sake of making sure it is on the table. So, if anyone has already proposed this, take my post as support in that direction instead.

An option that I have been thinking since the Devstream, though, is another type of pay-to-skip (or rather "pay-to-reach" of sorts): instead of paying Platinum to skip the cinematic quests, what could be "skipped" is the whole grind needed to reach said quests in the first place. Be it for a comprehensive skip (like all the way to Natah, for example), or small jumps (like blocks that include the smaller quests leading to Natah as well), we should be able to pay to skip the grind (just like with the Foundry, Dojo rooms and decorations, or cool weapons, or new frames etc) instead of the quests themselves.

This would kinda look like following:

* Bigger blocks: Don't want to grind your way to Natah? Pay X Plat to unlock the quest automatically and also gain an Archwing (maybe also a K-Drive, just because we'd have gone through Fortuna inevitably), some slots, a moderate-duration affinity booster to reach the MR needed/expected and voilà. Don't want to grind from Natah to the New War? Pay another pack of X Plat to immediately unlock the quests (Second Dream, The War Within, all the Prologues, The Sacrifice), throw in a Necramech, a Railjack, more affinity boosters, maybe a couple more slots, plus whatever other essential resource I may be forgetting and voilà again.

* Shorter blocks (same as above, but more like): Don't wanna grind until Saya's Vigil? Here, a smaller pack of benefits and unlock the quest automatically. Don't wanna grind until Stolen Dreams? The New Strange? Natah? Second Dream? The War Within? and so on? For each quest, immediate unlock and a couple benefits that make it playable.

This way the new player will still have to play through the campaign to catch-up on the story, but chooses which shortcuts to pay for in order to get there. It's literally a skip-the-grind approach, which is already a practice within the game and would make a player's lack of patience or time available to grind profitable.

In some Youtube videos, I've seen people complain about having a job, kids, a life outside the game and not wanting to spend hours grinding for stuff. Fair enough, use plat to rush your way through the quests (to the risk of boredom once you reach the end of the track), but do the mainline quests. That's how the story can still make sense via the Operator path (instead of a parallel Drifter path, as proposed in a given video) and make everyone as satisfied as possible.

As Reb said on the Devstream, Platinum is farmable, it's giftable, it's not like Regal Aya or Access packs, where you inevitably have to put in cash by yourself in order to access the content. Have a friend lend you some plat, or ask for help to farm a few relics on the chat, sell your prime parts to other players, pay to skip a good chunk of grind preventing you from the meat of the game and that's it.

[RLanzinger]

Before Word : I've waited a full day of reflexion before posting...
-I have given my Opinion already and do not wish to convince others players
-I also want to help them understand what is this Topic about.
-To avoid Kilometric posts I'll use Spoilers tags (the most brave can read it all). Italic for citation.

 

First I will thanks @DawnoftheWhiteFury, his post is organize and the most relevant. I also thanks lot of others Tenno like @Firaxion, and will apologize to not have fully read post of players like @Warlohk.

Best post critique and analysis ... (No full post copy)

Dawn of the White Fury : "I need to be blunt. This is a terrible idea for a multitude of reasons, as well as a poorly presented one. Allow me to explain with the following rationale :"

Sorry but I will be Blunt to but there is so much wrong I'll need to be BLUNT, PRIME BLUNT. Sorry but I need to use my worst move...

Spoiler

[MODE =\\CAPTAIN OBVIOUS//= ON]

1. Warframe's story does not take "hundreds of hours of gameplay" to complete in its current state.

The New War ALONE take me a full Holiday week to complete because I’m no I-play-8h-gamer, nor a skilled one and I’ve some minor health issues, ALSO I want to enjoy my 4-to-6h-per-day-max game time.

=> A Full Story Quest as Prerequise to play IS More than 2 weeks of holidays^~40H spend only in gaming; THAT IS FAR TOO much.

 

2. Warframe is not an MMO. … The rest can be sum up as « MMO use Pay2Skip, Warframe is not MMO, Warframe is not P2Skip ».

=> That is the exact definition of a Sophism, there is ZERO logic in it… a pure and simple fallacy. don't do that, please !

 

3. Confirmation bias, but I have never once heard of any new player expressing the desire to skip Warframe's story.

I meet all the times Players that wish to have necramech / railjack /Umbra without spending days or weeks for it. Lot of players are fine with learning Lore Secrets by a friend and not playing them.

=> Your Biais about this like lot of players may come from something I will answer afterward.

That not you fault (only).

 

4. Vor's Prize is NOT at all a good point for this story skip option to be made available. Vor's Prize covers basics, but doesn't even begin to summarize how complex of a game Warframe is.

Vor's Prize IS The Tutorial. Once you’ve done it, you play the game with full basic options.

=> A basic setting in any game : You end Tuto, you can play in the big pond !!!

 

5. This is a poor business decision in the context of how DE make money off of Warframe.

Are you the businessman expert ? Do you have any idea of the cast/income it can generate ?

I will answer this arguments afterward about How much will it cost and how much this mean for [DE]; You clearly have not idea about it.

=> Personnal guess : Peanuts or near Peanuts

 

6. This can and will likely lead to the targeted harassment and bullying of new players. It is a very common trend in multiplayer games that have such mechanics

So you ask for rules because you or others will bully players ? that the Sophism of the Legitimate violence by blaming [DE] for others/your own wrong doing

Answer to this always, was and will be : BULLY =>REPORT => BAN

 

7. Finally, it is quite obvious that this idea came from a place of greed rather than a place of truly wanting to improve player experience.

Same arguments as 5… and that’s sophism knowed since antiquity AND was end 2 Millennia AGO  by Euclide : « what is asserted without reason may be denied without reason ».

 

In short : This is a bad idea, … Let Warframe be Warframe.

Should have start by this and throw the lot of 1-7 in a spoilers/trash bin

To sum up :

1/ THERE IS Nothing RATIONAL at ALL.

2/ You just don’t like the idea without a true logical meaning behind it;

Yes, I understand, [DE] too

3/ Without understanding it yourself, you are using the Sophism of Confirmation For your intellect to validate your feeling.

Don't do it.

==>You don't like it, just tell it and no need to do a dissertation for it.  Having a Feeling is not bad; To Believe it’s the truth, that a bad move…

 

Spoiler

[Edit 3 : deleted comment]

To @mactrent,

... Will post one my "elogious" comment to make a proper sum up that Onyxtraz did not "properly...

... was gong to do a "the bad, the good and the evil" jokes but take too much place ...

[/Edit 3]

 

To @Onyxtraz Same problem, same punition :

1/ You post is Damn too long. A big post is not a good post

2/ Don't pretend to resume all post to validate you own theorie n' feeling

3/ If you really wanted to sum thing up, you should have count Own many PRO and Own many CON. You did not do it, I have the feeling why ...

 

[MODE =\\CAPTAIN OBVIOUS//= OFF]

AFTER WORDS

 I'll keep short to the max...

Why this Feeling ?

Spoiler

I will speak about the only ONE reasons that is the responsibility of [DE] ^{and yours and mine too} : 

The NO SPOILER policy

We all learn this policy since the second dream : SPOILING the story IS BAD !!! even if it is on every YT video.

 

We all still don't like at ALL when someone spoil the STORY.

Your feeling of it's bad come form here...

=> That the only [DE]'s wrong doing and mine too (I report bunch of spoilers ^^)

What about Income / Greed ?

Spoiler

FACT :

• A Warframe, railjack or Necramech is around 300 plats.

• Railjack + Necramech is 465 Plats^{True Price} (bundle) which Skip all the Quest and MR ^{needed to have the firepower} to get them...
• A Story Pack may be between 300plats and 1000 plats bundle which mean 18€/45€ (yes, I'm in France and that the price).

How much this mean ? like I say before : "PEANUTS". I've spend ~60€ since 2013 that is 6€ per year for my fav' game .... PEANUTS^{slang for nothing}

 

The Mr Rank skip Not-a-problem ! 

Spoiler

When Someone go to Darvo and buy a weapon and skip ALL the MR for It, why nobody say it IS bad ?

When Someone buy "Railjack + Necramech" at 465Plats and skip ALL the MR for It, why nobody say it IS bad ?

==> There was never a problem about skipping Rank... do not create one, please.

 

DO NOT let anyone dictate how you spend your money for your hobby ... don't do it for others. Pay to SKIP is fine...

Edit : shorten the post a bit
Edit 2 :
Edit 3 : Some error, very thanks to @mactrent 👍 👍

Edited November 1, 2023 by RLanzinger
shorten the post a bit

[finnishcoffee]

Oof... This is a tough nut to crack. DE checking in with us Tenno that has been around a while is definately a cool thing to see so here are my thoughts on it:

Platpack to skip? - Big no-no ... That would violate the primary marketpoint Warframe has lived by for a decade. A free-to-play should remain free-to-play.

Some other games that have been around for a while use some sort of free boosterpacks for new players. I think this should be the case with warframe as well.

This boosterpack should not cost anything at all but simply be available for a new account upon creation with an explanation of what it does and why.

 

Using this boosterpack (better name for it needed) should be available after either Vors prize or the Duviri start.

As much as I have done all of the grinding for Amp, railjack, frames etc etc - I would have no problems at all with brand new players getting the most basic things given to them by the game upon getting through any one of those starting points. Many other online games do have some form of intro/tutorial as well and those honestly dont take long in Warframe either.

 

Just Give new players any decent Amp, an Odonata Archwing, voidrig and maybe the Carrier sentinel together with basic mods (a la Teshin cave lending frames style) so they get something to start with.
I have a feeling that if a new Tenno arises via a friend that plays the game, getting better mods is not really going to be much of a problem. They are tradable. Just need that bit of space credits for the trading "fee" (wich seriously could also be gotten rid of lol). Any of us veterans will happily give away mods we have duplicates of to help a new Tenno.
And like someone else mentioned in this thread, we would also gladly join quests that are known to be really hard (the sacrifice with its Operator only etc) if we were allowed to (hint hint, nudge nudge).

A nice touch for such a catch-up tweak could be the cinematics telling the story. Its something you DE people have done a fantastic job of over the years and I think it would also impress and ettract new players to see something like that. We all love Grandmothers stories for example, but Leverians voice and Teshin and others could definately be there as well doing the "briefing".

There is also the cool thing that most big cinematic quests are replayable so a new Tenno wanting to experience it could simply do so that way.

 

/M

 

[DrBorris]

13 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

And the issue with this, and why I didn't deem to actually 'address' it is simple.

I don't think it is. [DE]Rebecca was in the official Discord and mentioned something along the lines of adding more quests to the new player experience, specifically stuff in-between Vor's Prize and Second Dream (the part of the experience that needs the most work imo). This has the consequence of making that wall to new content even higher. 

Basically, if DE continues to make the new experience better by fleshing it out, it is going to have the knock-on effect of lengthening the experience. This means the issue of "quality content wall is a wall nonetheless" will become more important as time goes, finding a solution to this growing issue (as both the main story and NPE gets longer) is absolutely something to address. Criticisms of the new player experience are fair (although your "stop wasting time and just fix it in 5 minutes" comes off a bit ignorant to the reality of game dev) but this issue is separate.

And again, you can just dismiss it... I'm not asking you to admit that it is an issue, I just think that in this discussion about a thing you should at the very least address the thing. Because of Warframe's progression structure I do believe that the experience of playing through is incompatible with the MMO 'skip' norm. Mostly being that the story isn't that long, that it is mechanically quite a bit more simulating than most MMO early games, and that this is an incredibly complex game that needs a lot of time to fully grasp.

Like... I get it. While I'm in favor of a temporary skip, I'm not fully confident that even a watered down version makes sense. 

 

And the Venus thing... if a player gets bored of the game going through Venus, which at that point is 'new' content to them, in what is less than 10 missions... they aren't going to be a Warframe player for long no matter what. Giving a false impression that the game is all narrative all the time hurts everyone, it'll lure in players that don't jive with what Warframe is. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)rexis12]

9 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

And the Venus thing... if a player gets bored of the game going through Venus, which at that point is 'new' content to them, in what is less than 10 missions... they aren't going to be a Warframe player for long no matter what. Giving a false impression that the game is all narrative all the time hurts everyone, it'll lure in players that don't jive with what Warframe is. 

YES that is the point, that a player can waste unrefundable money on a game with a false image and experience that when shot back into the older game where things are 'less shiny' they'll quit.

And this time, instead did quitting in the first 10 missions and wasting like an hour. They'll waste Money.

Well it's a waste of money for them, for DE it's just them getting more money doing what is essentially tricking players thinking Warframe is something else with the new quests when the core and older gameplay that they would have to go back and go through would make them quit.

Again, if the idea is that the new experience can make players quit. Having the new experience be shunted to the side so that new players can be tricked with a shiny NEW QUEST only for them to fall flat into the older game that has made players quit, it's tone deaf AT BEST and exploitative AT WORST.