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Warframe Story Pack Feedback Thread!


[DE]Rebecca
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Hi Tenno!

We mentioned on Devstream #174 that we are considering doing something for newer players that want to play the latest Quest in our next Update on Day 1: A Story-Skip Pack. You can see the conversation in all its rawness in the link! 

We are at a point with this idea that we wanted to bring it up on the Devstream to get a conversation started about what this pack could be / shouldn’t be, which brings us to this thread. 

Where we are right now:
- Whispers in the Walls has a prerequisite of The New War to access it for narrative  & story reasons.
- While we remove grind and barriers with every Update to make the story more streamlined (and will continue this), players interested in accessing this new content day 1 must first complete 10 years of Warframe before they can dive in. This is a barrier to many people that we’re trying to provide options around. 

Our goals:
- Allow players to use Platinum to buy a pack that unlocks & completes the replayable Quests required to access Whispers in the Walls -- either purchasing it themselves or receiving it as a gift from a friend so they can play together.
- Require Vor’s Prize to be complete so there’s a baseline of game understanding. 
- Provide value in this pack by giving gear that would be earned in the course of play so they are ‘ready’ for content at a given level range (i.e Include Endo & Mods in the pack). 
- Continue to improve the gameplay path to The New War, as seen in changes with Abyss of Dagath and in future updates (unrelated to Story Skip but important to the conversation overall). 

Why are we even exploring this?
- Warframe has a decade of content to explore - this is a strength AND a weakness. 
- We treat this as a strength because we are prioritizing story content & quests that comes ‘after’ The New War. 
-This is a weakness because it can be a time investment that turns people away. A core ‘you can use Platinum to save time’ element is preserved in this approach.


There are many opinions on this idea, and we want to be transparent with our community before we consider shipping any iteration of this system. Please use this thread for constructive feedback, so we can read and understand your concerns. 

Thank you!
 

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I think for me personally my biggest question is what is the price range we are looking at potentially for a story skip. I have no problem with the concept of it existing but I'm potentially concerned that the price could be egregious. If we're talking a couple dollars worth of platinum I don't see that being an issue personally but I can also see a higher amount of plant causing more strife within the community.

Edited by SherpaRage
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Posting this from the Discord Devstream Q&A, mostly for quick reference's sake and share, since it was my main concern.

Q: Concerning the idea of gifting the story skip. Currently, gifts can't be identified until you open it in your inbox. However, once opened, it activates immediately (e.g. Boosters). What if story skip is gifted without consent? Any anti-griefing solutions for this?

A: We would come up with something yeah!

Spoiler

krbUTK8.png

 

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I completely understand where you are coming from and I understand why Warframe needs something like this.
I have several friends who would play with me, but they refuse to put in 200 hours to catch up, so I am for any kind of way to help players play the newest thing instantly.

What I have an issue with is the platinum price. I get that it's completely in-line with Warframe's imho super fair monetization, but I would fear that the onboarding experience would change the tone. Currently it's "warframe is completelly free", but it would change to "the new stuff is locked behind 200h grind, or you can pay", which is a shift in tone, which I don't think would be super great. It has to be handled very carefully.

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Paying for a story skip doesn't make much sense in the context presented on the stream.
"Oh you have a friend and you want to get them into the game and they want to play all this new stuff we just released and they can just pay to get to the part of the story where you are."

Except the hypothetical friend that just installed the game and went through the tutorial now has to pay money in this free-to-play game to be able to do so.

If you want new players to be able to enjoy the new content because it's better and more representative of the game as it is now, just let them.
Paying for power boosts already exists in the form of being able to buy warframes and weapons in the market.
The difference vs paying for the story skip is the player choosing to buy a power boost vs being faced with a paywall.

Edited by blackgu4rd
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As long as you respect the price that it would be for how much they get out of it, you remain highly open to feedback throughout the whole process, and respect some of the story beats that feel very necessary to the overall spirit of the game, I am not opposed to it being implemented. My personal preference would be for it to barely be pushed at all, to be a last resort/last ditch effort to get people into the current patch of the game, not a main avenue of approach, or that isn't advertised readily, as I think anyone who would be willing to go through the actual game, should, but I know that path isn't for everyone

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Broadly, I think this would be a huge positive for the game. 

I think the for plat/gifting options mentioned are good. 

I think allowing someone like me to say to a friend, "I'll get you this skip so you can play the new content with me now" is farrrrrrrr better than "play 200 hours and then we can do the thing you saw in the new trailer".

But I think a skip needs to come with some kind of onboarding/training quest, even a little short one, just so people that opt for it have some context for the things that they get. You want to present things after the skip in a way that isn't just a kill screen like looking at modding can be. People need to understand what they skipped, that they can revisit it at their leisure, and be introduced to the systems they have gained access to so they can have fun.

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Biggest issue I see: the starting quests (awakening/Vor's prize) do a decent job of teaching warframe combat. However, the Archwing, War Within, Heart of Deimos, New War, and Duviri Paradox are similar in that they teach how to use archwings, operators, necramechs, Kahl, and Drifter respectively, and new players would need to learn how to use those systems if they were skipped past those quests. Without learning operator mechanics, for example, a skip up to Angels of the Zariman would have been worthless as most players who never used an operator before would not be able to kill an angel, since their mechanics are based on the player having learned a great deal before reaching that point. This makes me worried about how much the Whispers update would need to be dumbed down for players who play it immediately after Vor's Prize.

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As someone who has been watching my friendslist slowly degrade and shrink, I support this idea, as long as it's presented and handled in a way that doesn't leave someone using this option lost.

It should at least include, perhaps access to something like a slideshow, covering important story events up to this point, and maybe show what quest those story points are derived from, if someone wishes to become more interested in understanding/replaying that content later. A good place for this to go perhaps is expanding the Leverian to encompass this maybe.

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When DE hired YouTube creators who never played WF to do the lead up to New War, I was blown away by how much needs to be done to get to that point - WAY more than I expected because I had been doing it over the past 10 years. There is a RIDICULOUS amount of content that might not be obvious when you've had the privilege of playing it months apart as it came out. It's totally understandable if new players feel overwhelmed by that. I have friends who got turned off by the grind and never came back. I don't begrudge them that.

I agree that going through the game is better (and I fully agree that Vor's Prize should be a requirement, perhaps the entire Mercury map as well so that players can experience most gameplay styles), but not everyone has the free time to go through what we have gone through. That's who this idea is geared towards. I won't blame anyone who chooses this accelerated path, especially if it helps to retain them in the long run rather than scare them off from the mountain of grind they face by taking this option away.

We can already use plat to buy non-Prime warframes and weapons so that we don't have to grind for them. I simply see the Story Pack as an extension to that.

Edited by WidescreenJohn
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It's fine as long as it's not in-your-face thing you see the first time you log into the game. Would feel bad it it was a bait for new players to buy platinum. If I started the game as a new player it would put me off if I immediately saw a banner advertising not playing the game for money.

 

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On my honest opinion, I am fifty fifty into this, just because someone has some kind of "adventage" advancing some necessary quests is not good, but i would rather do a button that literally skips cinematics, just do quests, kill, get resources easier and get maybe craftable parts, crafted, something like that, or even maybe just get whole frame or whatever it gives you just crafted in order to keep the process, and just being able to play it faster, less requeriments... But a straight skip? It's like, skip my 4h Steel Essence farm, give me 3000 by just paying 100pl, this is the kind of idea i have of it. But as always, i'm open to everything, this could be some "community life-changing" feature that helps people that dont really want to rush story bcz they just want to play. So, everything said. Looking forward!

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19 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Whispers in the Walls has a prerequisite of The New War to access it for narrative  & story reasons.

New War isn't really a big issue IMO as much as the pre-requisites for that quest: the Railjack and the Necramech, which are also huge time investments and are really just dead-end content islands in themselves, not very well integrated into the core of the game which New War basically is.

I'd strongly suggest something like adding loaner equipment in the form of Snake and Tempestarii cameos, especially since (spoiler alert) you get maybe 5-10 minutes max of content out of them, which feels like they're shoehorned in as a way to get players to farm irrelevant content.

Though if Railjacks and Necramechs actually had more uses when it comes to the core of the game, the problem effectively solves itself since you could potentially naturally be earning both without even thinking, instead of having to go out of your way to play some side-content

Edited by Pakaku
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I had a skim through all the quest requirements needed to unlock The New War, as that's the big capstone quest for the story at the moment.

For the quest itself, you need a Railjack, a Necramech, an Amp, and to have completed the prior main story quests. Backtrack through the quests and you need Mot (fourth Void path) unlocked for Chains of Harrow, MR5 + Sedna Junction for The War Within, MR3 + Neptune Junction for The Second Dream and MR2 + Uranus unlocked for Natah.

Story skips are generally associated with MMOs, where you can buy level boosts to skip to the latest expansion, and the older quests are just seen as a barrier you have to grind your way through to get to the good stuff. In Warframe, the quests ARE the good stuff and the requirements for them are that equivalent grind barrier.

My proposal is that it shouldn't be a story skip at all, it should be a grind skip. Sell a "Story Acceleration" pack that gives the player all of the requirements they need for the main story quests, or waives them outright. Give them a MK1 Railjack, a lightly modded Necramech and a Cetus amp - enough to skip over the beginning of each item's progression, and get them through the quests, without removing any reason to interact with these systems later. Any quest rewards given out early in this way can be handled like Warframes; give people Rivens, or some other premium reward, for finishing the Railjack/Archwing/etc quests if they've bought the skip. For the Junctions, automatically unlock the nodes they need to complete any quest as soon as they finish the previous one. For MR, just waive it entirely - I don't think there's any mechanical reason you'd need to be a certain MR for any of the existing quests. Throw in some warframe/weapon mods with partial ranks for general gameplay, and you're prepared for the main questline. All of this should be permanently given to the player, not just temporarily for the quests, so they're nicely equipped to continue playing the game after they finish the story quests.

Skipping all the quests would make the resulting dump of mechanics/unlocks/access absolutely incomprehensible to new players. Warframe is a complex game even if you've been introduced to it piece by piece over years, a quest skip would simultaneously grant new players access to Operators, Focus, Sorties, Kuva Liches, Rivens, Quills/Vox/Necraloid, Drifter, Narmer, Archwing, Railjack, Eidolons, and probably some more things I can't remember. Imagine getting all of that dumped on you in twenty separate messages.

The goal I'm aiming for here is to give players an incredibly streamlined experience, where they'd pay for this skip and then be guided through all of the quests with all of the barriers removed, so it's nothing but predesigned quest content for the entire duration of the "skip" without having to grind anything. The issue that turns new players away from the game isn't having several hours of purpose-built story content to play through, it's having to grind several dozen hours for the prerequesites to access that story content.

tl;dr: The quests in Warframe are absolutely worth playing, unlike 99% of games with a "story skip" mechanic, so I don't think it's a good solution.

  

1 minute ago, balckillofdeath said:

 

the only change is dont make new war and out right requirement but heavly warn a new player that the quest might not make sense without completing the new war.

 

Good point - a useful comparison here is the quest "The World Wakes" in Runescape. There are no strict requirements for this quest, and it's the first quest set in the Sixth Age, designed to be a jumping off point for new players to get involved in the story. If they'd stuck to their previous logic with quest progression you would have needed to complete Ritual of the Mahjarrat first; the finale to several years of total story updates, requiring over a hundred hours of questing ALONE to get to and a character with high levels in every single skill, which would also take hundreds of hours.

Jagex solved the issue by drawing a line under the old quests after a huge story event, allowing new players to start after that (while working on the older quests freely, not locking them out) and just telling them "Everything in the game that mentions the Fifth Age has already happened and you have canonically finished the older quests, so just bear that in mind".

I don't think Warframe is anywhere near that point yet, but it was a great way to handle the issue.

 

Edited by BraveDude8
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My concerns around this are:

  • Perception: New player wants to play new content which is fair, but seeing a paywall or grind wall just makes the game seem "pay to win" 
  • Cost breakdown: How much would it cost to just skip all of the quests?
  • How far does this go? will it include all quests, just the main story ones, what about future quests requiring other quests
  • Retention: Will players who just pay to skip a quest still be invested in the game to keep playing?
  • Power level: while the quests are some of the gate, what about other things like weapons, frames, MODs.  Like if you skip you miss out on the actual grind to get to the quest and thus those items.  IE will new players even be able to keep up in the new content if they just skip everything to get there or will the new content be even further tuned down to make it easier for them

 

I am not in favor of it but I think there are way more things that can be addressed first to improve the grind than just taking the money route, like how a new player who doesn't know about this discussion or comes in a few years down the road all they see is pay walls and just write the game off. 

For example: Further review of the drop tables, maybe even streamlining of early planet nodes.  

Also I will hold up Plains and Fortuna as another possible example of how to handle things, where you have content that is both new player friendly, but then also further things that unlock later on once you are further in the story line. 

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p

Quote

If you want new players to be able to enjoy the new content because it's better and more representative of the game as it is now, just let them.

problem is you cant simply do that. 1. story context and 2. you have to respect grind of necramechs/railjack.

ok doing some really basic math quickly

railjack is 400 plat

necramech voidrig is 375

archwing is 175

add in the  base damage mods and crit chance mods free, at half of max rank(gives players something to grind for later)

so added together we get  950 plat

lets briefly assume 25% off discount which means 712

buying two 370 packs each at 20 bucks

at current prices would be approximately 40$

personally i think that could be lowered to maybe 25 or even lower

 

i supremely agree with brave dude8

Quote

My proposal is that it shouldn't be a story skip at all, it should be a grind skip. Sell a "Story Acceleration" pack that gives the player all of the requirements they need for the main story quests, or waives them outright. Give them a MK1 Railjack, a lightly modded Necramech and a Cetus amp - enough to skip over the beginning of each item's progression, and get them through the quests, without removing any reason to interact with these systems later.

the only change is dont make new war and out right requirement but heavly warn a new player that the quest might not make sense without completing the new war.

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i don't believe any of the main story quests should be skipable. if a "fast track" is desired, i'd like to see the following:

> "firepower" market packs akin to the new war firepower pack for every big story quest that can be used to acquire the neccesary gear for the quest

>all story quests between vor's prize and the second dream should be made fully multiplayer, these quests are SIGNIFICANTLY dated and should also have some amount of reworking to them

>provide a clearer ingame "path" to follow to get through the story, for example after the second dream finishes, the game should tell you you need to go do the pluto and sedna junctions next so you can get to the war within quest. 

>remove or lower MR locks that prevent progression, specifically the vay hek mr5 requirement (lower to MR3) which is needed to unlock the sedna junction and thus get the war within. 


along with that, i do think a story summary view is a good idea, but NOT because of new players... instead, because of OLD players. some people haven't seen the storyline up to second dream in 8 years, some of us barely remember what the new strange questline was like or what the story was about. 

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I think the concern "it looks bad to offer a new player to skip your story" is a pretty big one. Regardless of intention, it looks bad. I don't know if it is possible but I think avoiding a monetary cost would be best.

As for implementation, I think it would be more interesting to approach it as an "in medias res" as opposed to a skip. Utilize the Duviri 'rental' gear mechanics, let them play with decent gear and grind some of their own new stuff. But then leave the original progression path completely intact. Then allow for that player to swap between their "new content" and "personal progress" paths at will, two separate silos of progression. Have any new content acquired in the 'personal' path feed into the 'new' path, then whenever the 'personal' path meets the 'new' path the silos merge into each other.

So basically make it like Duviri...

 

I could imagine this actually acting as something that gets some players more interested in the story. Vor's Prize doesn't grab everyone, but imagine starting with Whispers. I could very much imagine someone going "how did we get here? I gotta see how we got here."

 

Attempting to summarize the story into a digestible time frame will ruin the story. Yall at DE are great, but that is an actually impossible task. Don't try to summarize it, put it off to the side and leave it for later. Those summaries as a reminder would still be awesome though.

 

Edit: I see the "this will remove player's attachment for the game" take popping up a lot. If this does turn into a traditional story skip, I'm inclined to agree. But I think the "two progression paths" approach gets around that by not actually skipping anything, instead using new story content as a springboard for the old content.

Edit2: Another advantage of this approach is that it would allow you to expand the new player experience without worry. It would suck to make a new quest knowing some players would never see it. In the context of the current paradigm, adding new quests won't be hurdles to new content, they are just new content. I would love to eventually see a retelling of the events from Sling Stone to Alad's Mutalist strain, that couldn't happen now as it would likely be another 20-50 hours for a new player to get through.

Edit3: (I apparently have a lot of thoughts) Plat is part of this equation, my good-faith interpretation is that it exists as a barrier to dissuade everyone from skipping the story. I think it is a bad idea for quite a few reasons, but if money is the question I think "two progression path" solution is also a bit of an answer. Much like with how I expect yall are expecting a resurgence of players with cross-save, this could do the exact same thing for "lost" players. People who haven't played in years and are daunted by the mountain of content, a free "hey, come play this new stuff" could bring them back where a paid one will likely get an "lol" as a response.

And for new players, I'd go the Duviri(ish) route. Vor's Prize is the tutorial, it's establishment of the world has turned out to be quite important. But once you're done with that have it flash up that old new player screen when Duviri was a start option, the options being "continue," "paradox," and "skip". Embrace this "skip" not as a skip, but a jump-in point for the game. Have anyone at any point be able to take the jump to new content, make any new release be a celebration for everyone and not just those that are caught up.

Edit4: I think this solution would also alleviate the FOMO of a skip as well. While some players don't care about the new player experience or story at all, that isn't everyone. There is likely a group of people who want to play the new stuff now but don't want to "ruin" the game for themselves. Those players will likely not do the skip even though that may be the 'right' choice for them in the moment. The split path takes away the risk from skipping as you don't lose access to the proper new player experience. Again, I think the advantage of having a universally available and free skip would serve to strengthen the community during major content drops. There is potential for this to not just be a solution to a problem, but be an all-around improvement for the game for everyone.

Edit5: (I'm not done yet) I believe that the Duviri loaner weapon mechanic would also be extremely beneficial to a new player who finds themselves in the later stages of the game. Warframe is a very, very complicated game. Even just combat, which is generally tutorialized fairly well, can be overwhelming to new players. I think removing mod customization from the list of worries for a new player would be helpful if they are simultaneously being thrown into the deep end of gameplay. And as a springboard, getting accustomed to the power curve modding provides may end up guiding them to get into build-craft whenever they go back and do the proper new player experience.

Edited by DrBorris
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- You shouldn't be taxed to play with a friend after being recruited by a friend.

If you want to offer a skip on the story up to Whispers in the Wall I think it should only be allowed for people that have used the "Recruit a friend" scheme and are under MR3. And it should be 100% free. Asking for payment after someone has added to the player base for you is beyond cheek. It seems greedy. And to be honest smells like something Tencent would concoct.

Surely the idea of getting a player in, throwing them a life saver of an option and getting them engaged with the community through their friend is the way. After that they're likely to make plat purchases themselves without pressure because they are invested. Making them pay up front allows for more of a chance of buyers remorse, or the feeling that they were shook down merely for wanting to try something new - a "Free to play" game none the less.

Bad experiences lead to bad feelings ( I feel like Robocop in Robocop 2 just typing that...) and those people will be more vocal in their hate and entitlement. Why? Because they've paid their money and feel they can do whatever they want. Paying customer after all.

And honestly I feel that's why WF has done so well. Platinum purchases, of which I've made a few - always made me feel like I was saying thank you for such a great game. The game is free to play and I always sorta felt like I was robbing you. Such a great game and I have to pay nothing - yes I know engagement figures create product worth etc. but I hope you get what I mean.
Tennogen always makes me feel like I'm investing in artwork lead by the community and how cool it must be for them to say they've added a piece of them to the game we all love.

This Plat to skip idea? It feels hollow. Soulless. Greedy.
It actually makes it appear that you think less of your own game and less of us. Skipping is the same as saying the 10 years invested is only worth as much as a fee. And that really cheapens the experience. And that thought alone is sad even if not intended. And I believe it isn't the intention.

I have first hand of experiences like this with a Warframe competitor... one that is floundering at the moment. One that expects you buy into expansions to near hundreds of pounds as a soon as you start to be relevant in the game, and even before to be honest. That game is Destiny 2. It has HORRIBLE monetization options. D2 should be an example of what not to be. Their brief ownership under Activision Blizzard King near killed their game. Or so I am told by their player base. What's worse is Bungie kept all the changes after getting their freedom back. 
Their games story is in absolute shambles because of all the alterations made to accommodate selling the next new expansion - and they have done this multiple times. Honestly, It's a garbled mess. Buying those expansions allow you to go places you have no idea about. You are shown things you can't possibly understand. In the wrong order things you see contradict other things. People are dead and then alive and then dead again... 

I experienced many a bad feeling with Destiny 2 and all those feelings started from actively being asked for money for wanting to play their game with a friend. I wanted to like the game but it just felt tainted by obvious corporate greed. I stopped playing it nearly as fast as I started and my friend and the people I played it with fully understood where I was coming from once I had explained my experience as a new player.

Don't let Warframe become the next Destiny. Please.

- Multiple edits for spell check, grammar and clearing up poorly worded sections... I'm guessing I've still missed some.

Edited by 2wentyThre3
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First of all, thank you for approaching the community very open.

Broadly speaking, I would say a skip is ok. It would however need to include:

  • 1 or more pre-leveled warframes
  • a couple of pre-leveled weapons
  • builds with pre-leveled mods (should be installed) for the gear

That being said, I enjoyed the quests of warframe a lot and would encourage the skip to still give an incentive for players who used to go back and experience the old stuff.

What the skip should absolutely not contain:

  • cosmetics
  • exclusive stuff

Please continue asking the community about potentially sensitive topics

Edited by R2D3k
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I think there is no downside to introducing such a feature but it would solve a big time investment "problem" for people who just want to experience the new stuff.

New players who just want to play the new content can experience it right away.

New players who want to play with their long time player friends can do so.

Because now they don't need to grind through 100 hours of old content just to play what they came here for. Alternatively and how it works now is a Veteran would rush them through the old content, taxi them to exp farms, gift them necessary mods (or level them for them because of endo costs) etc.  I have done exactly that multiple times with people I introduced to this game. No matter if you pay to skip or get carried by Veteran you won't experience the game as intent but if you're considering any of these options you probably don't care anyway. If you want to experience the game for yourself you can do so, introducing a pay to skip option does not affect you.
And if you play with friends they can explain the game and its mechanics while playing the new stuff with you. 

However I think there should be a popup, textbox etc. notifying the pay to skip player when they try to engage with content that involves mechanics that they have skipped the introduction for. Like telling them that maybe playing second dream and war within is a good idea before going eidolon hunting so you at least know the background, of course they can choose to ignore that and play anyway.

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I think any kind of game-story skip is a really bad idea, paid or not. Paid is worse because if I have to tell a friend "hey check out this really cool game that you have to play 100 hours to be able to play the new cool content with me, or to pay to skip to it" is kind of a blow to the f2p aspect of the game. At the end of the day spending 5 minutes to swipe a card vs spending 100 hours, is a win, so you can't call this not-p2w, if you don't mind paying. Lost ark is the best example to avoid that I can think of, where you either grind hours per day, every day, or swipe a card to be able to do the latest content on release. Which is also unfair on whoever put in the effort. So most people have stopped caring about it.

Now, about skipping itself, I think the main story quests, from Hunhow and Natah, learning of the sentients, the second dream, the war within, the new war, those should be mandatory and un-skippable and having everything else not integral to the main story being a side quest that can be done whenever. It adds such a great depth to the world, it answers most "why are we doing this again?" questions and it does teach some basics on the game.

But I get that not everyone cares about the story and obviously a new player should absolutely not have to play 100 hours before they can do the new content, but instead having the grind and wait times removed from those all important main story quests, and said main quests be one after the other. Maybe kinda like how you would play a single player story game. Maybe with the option of "do you want the full experience, or a story mode where you run through the main quests with the lotus talking to you as you go". Because no matter how you look at it, someone who skips most of the game, when they play with their friends, they will have no idea what's what, what's going on, what to do and so on. They will have to have some understanding of the game otherwise they won't have a good time.

"Steve" did say there's a story catch-up in the works, but that doesn't teach you anything about the game's mechanics, so there would need to be some kind of tutorial or in game explanations about what's what. Besides, some of the coolest moments in the second dream and the war within got me hooked to the game, the most and in my opinion if Warframe didn't have any of those grand story quests it wouldn't have survived for this long, because besides all the plot twists and world building, there were some really cool boss fights and combat sequences that just make you want to play more and more.

Obviously it doesn't have to be done in any of those ways, but I think most alternatives to a full-story skip, will be better long term. 

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