Warframe Story Pack Feedback Thread!

[-Krism-]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

New players cannot buy skill and knowledge. You cannot sell them skill and knowledge. Dumping newbies into the newest (and hardest) content in the game will not prepare them for success. They won't know what's happening, or who is who, or why things matter. They won't know who the Orokin are, who the Entrati are, why there are two Loids, who MitW is or why he matters, what the Void is, even what the Warframes are. They won't know their Drifter, they won't know their Operator, they won't know the Lotus or Ballas or Erra. They won't have the mods they need, or the frames they need, or the weapons they need. Even if they buy those things too, they still won't know how to use them or mod them. They won't have any of the mechanical skills developed by actually playing the game. And they'll be dumped in with veteran players trying to play the same content, where they'll get to sit in a corner and be carried with nothing to do.

Honestly, the whole debate should end with this

I don't see any positive with this idea

[alaskari007]

If the game absolutely needs this (I don't believe it does) Instead of a 'story skip' what about a simple 'prerequisite skip', the player will still have to play the quests themselves, but all the nodes, gear, weapons, etc, needed to do the quests themselves will be skipped.  They'll get the full story experience just none of the actual grind to get to them.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They won't have the mods they need, or the frames they need, or the weapons they need.

  

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Provide value in this pack by giving gear that would be earned in the course of play so they are ‘ready’ for content at a given level range

[Stormandreas]

My concern here is that NONE of this feedback will be listened to (Hydroid hasn't already, Prime access/Regal Aya/Heirlooms doesn't seem to have been so far either).

This is NOT a good idea in its current state. Paying money to skip quests because someone doesn't want to do the grind but still unlocking NUMEROUS systems that the THE QUESTS INTRODUCE, is not a good idea. This is because the quests INTRODUCE AND TUTORIAL THESE SYSTEMS! Not to mention that you're wanting to just hand them Endo, Credits, mods, slots etc. that many of us spend a lot of time playing for, which then completely removes the need to play the game.

This cannot be overlooked. The reason the quests are split how they are, is simply because there are systems that require tutorials or setup to make sense to any player. Think, Railjack, Operators, archwing...

Now.... a STORY ONLY mode, would be ok. Pay Plat, get only the story quests, use loaner equipment and ONLY get to play the story, nothing is unlocked, only the story experience. THAT is a good idea.

[Jorak_Falconstar]

NO SKIPPING

 

if we have to have skippers.  then let them be marked so we know they skipped and can given them what they deserve when they beg for help because they skipped  - which is of course a mocking reply of "Oh you skipped the story, well your so much better than us you clearly need no help because you skipped"

[PublikDomain]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

  

15 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Even if they buy those things too, they still won't know how to use them or mod them. They won't have any of the mechanical skills developed by actually playing the game.

I also have doubts that enough content could be included to actually prepare a new player for the bleeding edge of content.

[MutoManiac]

Who cares if a new player buys frames, mods, guns, etc.? Not me. If they want to skip the story they should be able to do it as it doesn’t affect anyone else. What’s important to some is not important to others. Live and let live.

I started a new account just to have something to do (again),  but most people aren’t masochists and wouldn’t do it. It was great being able to start off in Duviri and rank up my focus points and get some good incarnon adapters for low MR weapons. Makes farming so much easier. I find this would be similar to that and even if it isn’t, I wouldn’t care less and neither should you.

[(PSN)ChaoticDoomOfBob]

A Perspective:

I write this post from the perspective of a player who has guided a large amount of new players through the game from start to current. As someone in game design myself, this is a more complicated topic than most people realize as well as controversial. You have to consider the upgrades that players have received over the course of the game that are required to play new content as well as the progression players have made with knowledge of the content, damage, difficulty scaling, and survivability. It's true that while the game continues to grow in size and the time investment required escalates, it will create a gap between new players and new content releases. That being said, I don't think this is the right time for this to occur in the games life and the way this is intended to be implemented has some permanent negative repercussions that will be created for new players entering into content they may either not be prepared for or overwhelmed by. Warframe has and still is a game that can be overwhelming for someone new to the game even with the current quality of life changes. Railjack, Amps, Operators, and Necramechs are all pre-requisites for the upcoming content of the game. There is already a knowledge and progression discrepancy conflict for players who have already reached the current story with these features unlocked and that will only grow once a new player has "tossed themselves into the fire unknowingly". There are players who have reached "Angels of the Zariman" content that "do not" fully understand Railjack, Amps, Operators, and Necramech systems, mods, and progression. As content releases, the lack of understanding on these aspects of the game or not seeing the obligation to play and upgrade them grows. This is only going to be an exponentially larger problem for a new player experiencing these additional features simultaneously. Just requiring content such as "Vor's Prize" as a baseline is not a valid way to determine knowledge base of these systems including the mod system itself. This quest does not create any sort of baseline for Amps, Operators, Railjack, or Necramech content. It's the same with granting a player Endo and Mods to begin with. There is still a baseline confusion occurring for the new player experience on "What mods should i invest the endo in?" and "When should I upgrade my mods?". The improvements to the New Player Experience has been a great step in the right direction, but there is still a long way to go. 

Regarding Duviri:

This situation was not present during "The Duviri Paradox" due to Warframe and Weapon Presets. Duviri allowed for new players to experience different warframes and weapons with loadouts capable for players to see the potential in the Frames or weapons. It was also not necessary for players to have previously played other aspects of the game with a new operator style new game experience that even veteran players would need to learn and adapt for. Yet there are many of those players that played through Duviri and felt lost starting the rest of the game due to the sudden shift without actually knowing that they had started with preset modded loadouts. 

My opinion and Player Retention:

My personal opinion on this topic is that a new expansion release gives a new player a goal. I have seen countless people that have wanted to keep playing the game to experience Railjack and New War content. It was something wild and interesting that gave them a long term purpose to play. Some of those players became invested in the story, others did not. Some Completed the latest content, some never made it to "The Second Dream". I have also had the problem where new players have notified me that they would have been so lost playing the game without help that they would have quit if it wasn't for community assistance. Yet I have not had a player stop because they felt it was to much content to get to the new releases. It has always been:

• A- Someone not into Progression on games that has no interest in upgrading, leveling, or replaying content. 
• B- Someone whose sole reason for playing is to reach "endgame" with a maxed out weapon and quit. 
• C- Someone who doesn't like sci/fi fantasy content and is looking for something more real world and grounded.
• D- A pvp player that finds out the game is not focused on pvp content.

Generally these players are not players who have any intention to play the game for any longer than a few hours, have no intention to return to the game, and even if they had access to playing the new content would stop after the quest was completed "if" they even decide to make it through the quest. 

Conclusion and Direction:

The focus should never be to give players immediate access to new content. Game Design exists to engage and teach players as they continue playing with new features, mechanics, and experiences even if they are not aware it is happening. Great Design enforces player knowledge of how to play the game, how to improve themselves, and provides a direction and path to an end goal. Removing this path for players to experience not only detracts from the overall user experience, but also impacts other player experiences when playing and interacting with others. While the resources and time required is significantly more to do so, it would be best to continue to focus on improvements to the new player experience and not on allowing players to cut content. On a side note, I also "Do not" agree with added inbox messages being a primary solution to this problem. While I understand the inbox message system does give you access to providing players a direction and context for content, this is not a viable way to improve the new player experience that will interest, engage, and direct players by itself. The additional inbox messages help, but they should be an addition over a primary solution. 

If this was to be implemented, it would need much more groundwork to be laid down beforehand before becoming irreversible. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by (PSN)ChaoticDoomOfBob

[-Krism-]

DE: "We can't change the Heirloom pack because we want to respect the people who already bought it"

Also DE: "New players can simply skip the entire game to play the latest story mission"

[Mazifet]

nope nope nope nope nope nope

[Agall]

Warframe has had one of the better "time = money" relationships I've seen as a free 2 play game after trading was added. This is just a natural progression of that concept.

 

Just like any optional purchase in the game, if you don't want it, don't buy it.

 

Almost anything in the game can be obtained with platinum which could be equivalent to a quantity of tradeable item/resource. If this skip cost X platinum, to someone who doesn't enjoy playing the story, they may enjoy getting X platinum by doing another type of content, even if it takes them longer. Whether that's flipping rivens, cracking open relics to sell the parts, farming bosses for arcanes/mods, etc. Just another mechanism to allow people to play the game how they want.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

I also have doubts that enough content could be included to actually prepare a new player for the bleeding edge of content.

I hang around the modding advice channels of the Warframe Discords a lot. So I'll say that "playing the game" doesn't prepare them or let them know how modding works either. The mechanical skill (which WF doesn't require most of the time) when required is extremely low, so that's not a major concern.

Also how does buying a gun or frame vs grinding them suddenly make you know how to use them better? How to use a Braton effectively is the same as a Kuva Hind. if all you've used is Excalibur, Rhino is going to be a shakeup regardless of whether I paid the 200p for him from the market or ran Jackal 10 times.

[operative-verona]

A skip button is definitely something that's needed. We players have no stats, obviously, but it's pretty clear that a considerable number of new people couldn't care less about the Second Dream and just want to dive into the content they saw in the promo. We hold the story sacred because of the way we experienced the release and the lead up all those years ago, but that experience is gone now. The dream doesn't hit anymore because the players aren't really wondering who they are, so the answer doesn't matter. They just don't have the lore they need to even care about it. Early content is mind numbing and rushing through nodes on early planets destroys retention.

There's two options: Line the game with main story quests in between Earth and Uranus OR let the player skip.
One of those is very easy to implement and lets a person who otherwise wouldn't even understand what is going in the quests at all just get past them.

However, Warframe devs should still proudly own the story and the universe they inherited, and every player should be highly encouraged to at the very least look at the story recap should they choose to skip everything. Make a narrated supercut of the main story beats for them to watch and prompt them when the skip is bought. Would you like to see a story recap? Yes/No.

I don't see this as an issue and wouldn't take the twitch chat reaction seriously at all because they are reactive and often just parrot what the chat is generally saying. People have been reasonable and civil in this thread and that's the people you are looking to hear out anyway.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Amebot
typo

[Agall]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

if all you've used is Excalibur

Can relate

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I hang around the modding advice channels of the Warframe Discords a lot. So I'll say that "playing the game" doesn't prepare them or let them know how modding works either. The mechanical skill (which WF doesn't require most of the time) when required is extremely low, so that's not a major concern.

I agree, and that's why that part of the NPE should be improved - not skipped. Skipping the early areas where the game is more forgiving won't help get players engaged and prepared.

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Also how does buying a gun or frame vs grinding them suddenly make you know how to use them better? How to use a Braton effectively is the same as a Kuva Hind. if all you've used is Excalibur, Rhino is going to be a shakeup regardless of whether I paid the 200p for him from the market or ran Jackal 10 times.

Because grinding for it implies actually playing the game. A player that's played 20 hours to reach the new quest will have 20 more hours of experience and knowledge and skill and resources than the player who played 0 hours and paid to reach the new quest.

[Temragon]

1 hour ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

I personally am against the idea of throwing new players who have no idea how the game works in the deepest end possible like this. Especially without a specialised quest to catch them up and drill in each gameplay element they will be unlocking. I like the idea on the grounds that people who played on one platform can use this to get to speed on this platform, but unlocking all the rewards? I don't think that far is necessary for what you want to do - which is get newer people faster access to the content they yearn to experience.

Here is my proposal: Drifter's Path.

Proposal's baseline:
Teshin's Cave + random gear + rental assets to act as a 'Drifter Path'.
This would skip having to force-unlock quests linked to getting to Whispers by providing a literal backdoor to entering any quest.

Tempestarii, or a Void-addled Railjack, would include an out-of-place fully-suited Drifter as a temporary crewmate to repair any damage acrrued.
The Archwing would be an unmodded default one, along with related weapons.
Snake, the unmoddable mech from Heart of Deimos, will stand in for the lack of your own.

These will serve in lieu of any un-owned requisites.

This route will be free, but require you to complete Duviri Paradox, which last I checked was available after Vor's Prize.

This would allow you to go into any quest with randomised gear from Teshin's Cave, Transfer out into Drifter with the Lotus Hand, and use their Sirocco.
You'd obtain the Quest's intended rewards. Secondary completion via the other Path will result in a large stockpile of resources as loot, rather than just a Riven.

Some quest elements may benefit from additional Drifter dialogue to smooth this feature over, or be locked behind other quests you can access via this alternative route:

Second Dream, Heart of Deimos, New War.
Completing Second Dream would be required for Operator customisation. Heart of Deimos to acquaint yourself with the Entrati. New War for obvious reasons.
These three are all you'd need to do in the Drifter Path to get to Whispers. Of course, there's one small drawback of this route:
Drifter Path starts you in Teshin's Cave, meaning your gear is randomised, and the provided Mech and Railjack are unmoddable. You'd also be Drifter with Sirocco.

 

This is the best solution I've seen so far.

I'm for the skip in general, but I can respect the concerns about lack of investment/JSH argument

[Gullim92]

I'm not against the idea, but I do worry about how it might look to a new player in terms of, for lack of a better word, "devaluing" the content that has been produced in the past 10 years of Warframe by giving them the option to skip through it. That said I do understand the position DE is in and why they'd want to implement something like this.

I think in the end, as long as the option clearly states that all of the skipped content can be replayed from the codex whenever the player decides (and as long as that content isn't removed *cough* Destiny *cough*) it should be mostly fine.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Because grinding for it implies actually playing the game. A player that's played 20 hours to reach the new quest will have 20 more hours of experience and knowledge and skill and resources than the player who played 0 hours and paid to reach the new quest.

I'll say that this experience doesn't really make a noticeable difference, as it's not going to where it matters. The battle is won in the arsenal, not the field. What makes "hard" content challenging is mostly the gear requirement, not direct player "skill". Grinding 20 hours for those 10 core mods, or new frame, or new gun doesn't make you better at applying them. If anything, the opposite is true. Having immediate access to them allows you to actually use and experiment with them.

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Skipping the early areas where the game is more forgiving won't help get players engaged and prepared.

You still have junction requirements. The post doesn't say they would be skipped.

[TheLorekeeper]

When recommending the game to my friends, the story is what I promote the most.

If this "pay to skip pack" goes live, it'd be the biggest thing I'd advise new players not to buy with plat (especially since slots for frames, weapons, companions and even certain colour packs would be more worth it). 

I'm against it because what this pack advertises is that the story thus far isn't worth witnessing, which is a sentiment I heavily disagree with. If you pay to skip a foundry build, you don't miss out on anything. I've had more friends get turned off by foundry build times rather than the time it takes for them to get to know the world. 

I don't know if the Whispers update is a good idea for new players since its seemingly a sequel by nature, but if 1999 is a prequel-perhaps that might be a better alternative starting off point for new players to join with vets? 

If players do skip the story, there is the fear that it creates the perception that warframe is a shallow experience because they jumped ahead so much (which couldn't be further from the truth).

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

I think the concern "it looks bad to offer a new player to skip your story" is a pretty big one. Regardless of intention, it looks bad. I don't know if it is possible but I think avoiding a monetary cost would be best.

As for implementation, I think it would be more interesting to approach it as an "in medias res" as opposed to a skip. Utilize the Duviri 'rental' gear mechanics, let them play with decent gear and grind some of their own new stuff. But then leave the original progression path completely intact. Then allow for that player to swap between their "new content" and "personal progress" paths at will, two separate silos of progression. Have any new content acquired in the 'personal' path feed into the 'new' path, then whenever the 'personal' path meets the 'new' path the silos merge into each other.

So basically make it like Duviri...

 

I could imagine this actually acting as something that gets some players more interested in the story. Vor's Prize doesn't grab everyone, but imagine starting with Whispers. I could very much imagine someone going "how did we get here? I gotta see how we got here."

 

Attempting to summarize the story into a digestible time frame will ruin the story. Yall at DE are great, but that is an actually impossible task. Don't try to summarize it, put it off to the side and leave it for later. Those summaries as a reminder would still be awesome though.

I 100% agree. Even with all the good intentions and understandable reasons to add this feature, to me, the perception I get from this is "this looks bad to offer a story skip" (considering how good some of the quests are) as well as "this just feels like another feature primed for Warframe Mobile."

I would love to be proven wrong on my gut feelings, but this just feels like an avenue to cheapen progression to make sure the Warframe Mobile launch has heavy revenue streams on the day it matters most: launch. Regal Aya, "Story Packs", Update Supporter Packs, Heirloom Collections, on top of the normally time-gated content and Prime Access is becoming a bit much.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Voltage

[Roye2]

I honestly don't think a story skip should be added. I think that one of Warframe's strongsuits is that it gives new players lots of space to learn the game and find enjoyment before layering cinematic story quests, which makes these quests feel more engaging and rewarding when they are finally reached, and I think a story skip in any form would undermine this.

That being said, there are a few ideas I'm gonna throw out that go beyond just "pay plat to skip", in no particular order or connection:

New mission types could be available so long as the host as them unlocked (similar to the dagath node just added). This would allow players to play with their friends who are new to the game without necessarily interrupting the flow of quests. There may be visual spoilers, but skipping the quests would have the same result.

Quest bonds: Rather than just paying plat into a vacuum to skip quests, that plat could be added to the quest rewards to incentive players to eventually return to them. 

lower quest requirements: similar to how Duviri can be played right after vor's prize. Even using Duviri as the prerequisite quest instead of the New War would lower the grind time drastically. This may not be feasible for whispers in the wall, but could be done in the future.

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I would love to be proven wrong on my gut feelings, but this just feels like an avenue to cheapen progression to make sure the Warframe Mobile launch has heavy revenue streams on the day it matters most: launch. Regal Aya, "Story Packs", Update Supporter Packs, Heirloom Collections, on top of the normally time-gated content and Prime Access is becoming a bit much.

It is absolutely partially due to Mobile launch. They are going to have a ton of new players see an ad for new content and... content wall. With good intention (I believe) DE are looking at a massive wave of new players and trying to think of a way to get around a problem they perceive to be significant. I know I get a bit white-knight-y about some of DE's recent controversial decisions, in my mind everything makes sense from a good faith perspective, but that doesn't mean I think that this is an all-around good idea.

I think if poorly done this could kill the game for a whole generation of players. Mobile players are more willing to shell out money, but they still are in it to have fun. I think the potentials of the skip creating a bad image or it making for an even worse new player experience are far bigger issues than a slippery slope. Assuming the demographic of these Forums, I don't think anyone here would use a skip. Same goes for DE, game devs aren't likely to be the crowd to skip playing a game. Trying to empathize with the desires and predict the responses of people we fundamentally don't get is hard.

Edited October 27, 2023 by DrBorris

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

It is absolutely partially due to Mobile launch. They are going to have a ton of new players see an ad for new content and... content wall. With good intention (I believe) DE are looking at a massive wave of new players and trying to think of a way to get around a problem they perceive to be significant. I know I get a bit white-knight-y about some of DE's recent controversial decisions, in my mind everything makes sense from a good faith perspective, but that doesn't mean I think that this is an all-around good idea.

I think if poorly done this could kill the game for a whole generation of players. Mobile players are more willing to shell out money, but they still are in it to have fun. I think the potentials of the skip creating a bad image or it making for an even worse new player experience are far bitter issues than a slippery slope. Assuming the demographic of these Forums, I don't think anyone here would use a skip. Same goes for DE, game devs aren't likely to be the crowd to skip playing a game. Trying to empathize with the desires and predict the responses of people we fundamentally don't get is hard.

For sure. It's hard for me to add to this thread as someone who's been here and played every major quest on launch day all the way back to Echoes of the Sentient (Update 17). For me, the quests have a completely different tone, impact, and influence over how I feel about skipping, especially when I've always met the requirements for every quest as I was around when they released. I personally can't see the benefit in skipping things like The Second Dream or The War Within.

I can absolutely see someone looking at all these quests and the requirements and wanting to skip along (because they may not like story missions among other things).

Edited October 27, 2023 by Voltage

[(PSN)killer115550]

Sounds great!

I have some friends who have expressed interest in playing warframe, but don't have 100-200 hours to spend trying to catch-up to where I am in the game. Being able to drop a bit of cash to get them at least somewhere near where I am would be awesome.

[Jhaiisiin]

As others have said, pay to skip the quests is a bad idea.

The story is the reason I've used to get people into this. It's by far the biggest draw, and is the main reason I'm still here. Sure, the thousands of hours I've put in aren't in the story, they're in the grind and acquisition of various gear pieces. But I love the story and live for it.

I agree with what others have said. Pay to remove prerequisites. Make it so they can do the quests now with no time gating involved. The new player would spend a day or two worth of time going through the story in order, unlocking everything, and understanding the various mechanics that are introduced through those quests.

It's not going to impart skill or knowledge, but at least it'll let them understand *why* the story exists and get them caught up. Please don't skip all of that. It doesn't help the players out, nor does it help the community.