We need an augment slot

[(PSN)Unstar]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Pulled out my trusty calculator and the math checks out!  1 capacity remains with this build, and it's even using a full Umbral build with an Umbral mod in an un-Forma'd slot!  Suffice to say, this demonstrates that capacity would not be a meaningfully limiting factor if another mod slot were introduced.

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

I'll repeat this because it is a core argument: there is only one meta (though theoretically that "most effective" setup could be two equally effective but different builds), which makes meta the anti-thesis of variety. Meta has NOTHING to do with variety, and would use an augment slot for one thing only: that single most effective build. However, for all those players NOT fixated on the meta and especially for those players that enjoy VARIETY, one or more augment-specific slots would mean a great deal. So release your mind, momentarily, from the meta/power-fixation and THINK: it is a mathematical and logical FACT that you can achieve MORE VARIETY with 8 slots and 1 augment slot than with 8 slots only. It adds that increased potential for variety for every single player in the game, but if and how you use that potential is, of course, up to you.

With respect, you don't need a new mod slot to ignore the meta.  You can do that now.  Adding a new mod slot will in no way change that.

What I imagine you're theorizing is that this mod slot will be a "bonus".  That you'll be able to have everything you can have now, but also a free augment slot to just have fun with.  If that is indeed where your mind is at, then what you are forgetting is that DE balances the game against the meta.  If the potential power level of Warframes rises — which it will when Warframes that are already using strong augments get access to an additional normal mod slot — DE will in turn raise the level of challenge the game offers.  And we'll all be right back where we started, except now players will have to toss in a few more Forma to max out their Warframe.

Not to mention that if you're playing as a Warframe that doesn't have strong augments, it'll suck even more because you won't even have the choice you have now, the choice of whether to use a strong mod versus a weak augment.  Because you'll have an augment-only slot, which your strong mods won't be able to go in.  The best you'll be able to do is use a weak augment in that slot, meaning you'll be at a disadvantage relative to Warframes with strong augments.

In short, this is not a good idea.  It will be a single normal mod slot worth of power creep, it will widen the disparity between Warframes with strong augments and Warframes with weak augments, and it will require more grinding and Forma to max out Warframes, which would have increasingly restrictive polarities on their slots.  The downsides are too severe to ignore.

[TioMegaManX]

On 2023-11-05 at 10:19 AM, Waeleto said:

I know that DE said no before but we REALLY need an augment slot and i'm tired of pretending that we don't
So many warframes will ALWAYS have at least one augment in their build which they will almost not function without or are very bad without it and tbh an augment slot is a win win situation for EVERYONE, we get an extra slot to optimize our builds even more and DE gets 20 platinum per warframe 

I think the real solution is getting more archon shards and other arcanes to compensate for the slots used for augments.

[Reitrix]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Pulled out my trusty calculator and the math checks out!  1 capacity remains with this build, and it's even using a full Umbral build with an Umbral mod in an un-Forma'd slot!  Suffice to say, this demonstrates that capacity would not be a meaningfully limiting factor if another mod slot were introduced.

I would argue that needing 11 Forma to fit it all in is a meaningful limitation. 
You'd have chosen to expend additional forma to fit a QoL augment. 

Though I'd also not put Eternal War in a category that could go in that slot. The leap augment, yes. Eternal War .. No. lol
The slot should be used for things cannot reasonably compete with a regular mod. Much like how we got the Exilus slot for that very reason.  

[_Eclips3_]

No idea why everyone is self policing. Would be very convenient to have an extra slot for them.

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 hours ago, Graavarg said:

This isn't quite true. First of all, if you have the augment in your build and move it to the new augment slot, you are still limited to the same mod space.

I literally pointed that out, right here:

On 2023-11-07 at 2:51 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

A Dedicate Slot doesn't account for that, nor does it account for our limited Mod Points on builds that can already be tight

Limitation is not variety. Limitation breeds the necessity of creativity, yes, but it doesn't breed variety. Variety comes from having more options that fit into the space we already have. Making the space bigger, but not changing the root cause of all this debate, is missing the entire point of the debate.

A dedicate slot won't change the whole concept of why Augments are so divisive in the first place: They're either worth a slot or they aren't, They could be worth it because they add a function that's powerful, or because they're a band-aid to an ability, or because they have some trade-off function (like Funnel Clouds) that can make some other builds far more powerful. Or they could be not worth it because they don't add anything special, or because the base ability is so bad that what the Augment adds isn't worth it.

What you actually want, if you want diversity and flexibility in builds, is to make Augments actually do more. Offer more. Be actually special and be worth a regular mod slot permanently because of what they can bring to a build.

You want an Augment that can add stats to compensate for the other mod you can't slot, or to have options to min-max to a stat you're already adding, and a function that adds on/trades off the ability itself to make that ability seem like a new one.

I can tell you that the problems you have with Augments won't be solved by just throwing another slot at them.

It's like saying 'My pool is full of green algae, and it keeps making the pump clog up, I'll just dig out a new section of pool where I can put the pump so it's in the clean water.' And then expecting the exact same problem to not happen again in a couple of months.

Because it will happen again, when DE release more Augments that are band-aids or that you really want to run on your build, and you don't have the space to slot them, since your Dedicated Slot will be filled up with another mod you're so used to running that you don't want to let it go.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2023-11-05 at 8:39 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

We've never needed augment slots less than we do now.  Archon shards and more recent arcanes offer ways to beef up our stats without mods. 

I do generally agree with this, but I will admit, some Augments should probably be something the ability already does with a new Augment being added instead.

Valkyr's Ripline is an awful ability, but if you're going to keep it around, you may as well let us be Spider-Man and give it something better for an Augment.

Ash's Shuriken is not worth even casting outside of the Augment, and it has quite a few separate issues like pathing, so I'm not sure why it isn't inherent with it gaining an Augment for better scaling damage or something. 

Nekros' Desecrate augment has been a hot topic with this debate for ages, but honestly, it's probably better as an Augment only. I would think the base ability just needs a lower cost while the Augment receives a higher drain.

Edited November 10, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

I do generally agree with this, but I will admit, some Augments should probably be something the ability already does with a new Augment being added instead.

Valkyr's Ripline is an awful ability, but if you're going to keep it around, you may as well let us be Spider-Man and give it something better for an Augment.

Ash's Shuriken is not worth even casting outside of the Augment, and it has quite a few separate issues like pathing, so I'm not sure why it isn't inherent with it gaining an Augment for better scaling damage or something. 

Nekros' Desecrate augment has been a hot topic with this debate for ages, but honestly, it's probably better as an Augment only. I would think the base ability just needs a lower cost while the Augment receives a higher drain.

Agreed.  I love Ripline (I know, I know), but the augment is laughable, and could be baked into the base ability without resulting in balancing issues.  The same can be said for many augments.  DE has been touching them up here and there, but there's clearly more to be done.

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

No idea why everyone is self policing. Would be very convenient to have an extra slot for them.

If you're interested in having more of an idea, a handful of Warframe players have written 5 pages worth of comments explaining their reasoning.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

16 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Agreed.  I love Ripline (I know, I know), but the augment is laughable, and could be baked into the base ability without resulting in balancing issues.  The same can be said for many augments.  DE has been touching them up here and there, but there's clearly more to be done.

At the end of the day, you could keep Ripline as a movement ability if it just worked better. I would have to suggest removing the odd single enemy throw mechanic, since I find it more annoying than helpful, and just make it into two abilities. Ripline and Pounce.

Tap Ripline and it works as it does currently, directly pulling you to a target for a Finisher or the environment with some improvements to help with the physics jank. If pulling an enemy to you has to stay, make it so having Hysteria active pulls the enemy to you instead for a Finisher, so you have a way to control it better. Killing an enemy with a Finisher doubles Pounce damage for a short time.

Pounce is now the Hold function of the ability. You leap in front of you, releasing an AoE that causes knockdown to nearby enemies. If you have Warcry active, you slow enemies in the AoE. If you have Hysteria active, Pounce has increased range.

Honestly I like Ripline myself as well, I just feel like it needs more applicable uses in her kit with some serious elbow grease to work out the kinks. It's a fun idea for Itzal when it actually works, but I guess I was expecting something more akin to Scorpions Hook, or a grappling hook in general.

Edited November 10, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[Graavarg]

I'm not all that keen on debating this, since my initial point was along the lines of "the world is round, not flat". But I'll point a few such things out before moving on.

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Limitation is not variety. Limitation breeds the necessity of creativity, yes, but it doesn't breed variety. Variety comes from having more options that fit into the space we already have. Making the space bigger, but not changing the root cause of all this debate, is missing the entire point of the debate.

Yes, exactly. And 8 slots available for modding is "more limitation" compared to 8 slots + separate augment slot(s). You can produce more variety with 8+1 slots than with 8 slots, with the same content (mods). It is an indisputable mathematical fact. It really is. And it leads inevitably to the logical conclusion (which can be proven mathematically too) that "adding an augment slot creates the potential for more variety".

There is no point whatsoever debating or "having opinions" on this, since it is all fact and math. Unless one belongs to the "bonkers brigade" (closely affiliated with the "flat earthers"). So I'll repeat: adding an augment slot creates the potential for more variety. Period.

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A dedicate slot won't change the whole concept of why Augments are so divisive in the first place: They're either worth a slot or they aren't, They could be worth it because they add a function that's powerful, or because they're a band-aid to an ability, or because they have some trade-off function (like Funnel Clouds) that can make some other builds far more powerful. Or they could be not worth it because they don't add anything special, or because the base ability is so bad that what the Augment adds isn't worth it.

What you actually want, if you want diversity and flexibility in builds, is to make Augments actually do more. Offer more. Be actually special and be worth a regular mod slot permanently because of what they can bring to a build.

You want an Augment that can add stats to compensate for the other mod you can't slot, or to have options to min-max to a stat you're already adding, and a function that adds on/trades off the ability itself to make that ability seem like a new one.

I don't care about the the "value" of the actual augments themselves, and would politely point out that this is a completely separate question. This thread is about adding an augment slot, not about changing what all kinds of augments do.

I would also like to point out that you again slip into some sort of "meta"-thinking, leaving variety behind and instead adding "worth" and "doing more". Variety is a goal in itself, characterized by (surprise, surprise) being a bit "different". The actual "worth" of variety is this difference. And as can (also) be logically proven, meta is all about singularity, which is the opposite of variety. So while different "augmented" warframe builds obviously can be more or less "powerful" than other builds, what actually matters from a variety-viewpoint is that they play "differently". If you include "power", you will immediately compare the builds from an entirely different perspective as "power" is a universal measure (theoretically even). And "universal" is once again the opposite of variety, which creates "diversity". While this might sound a bit philosophical it is also completely and totally true.

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I can tell you that the problems you have with Augments won't be solved by just throwing another slot at them.

It's like saying 'My pool is full of green algae, and it keeps making the pump clog up, I'll just dig out a new section of pool where I can put the pump so it's in the clean water.' And then expecting the exact same problem to not happen again in a couple of months.

Because it will happen again, when DE release more Augments that are band-aids or that you really want to run on your build, and you don't have the space to slot them, since your Dedicated Slot will be filled up with another mod you're so used to running that you don't want to let it go.

I completely agree with you, but that is a DIFFERENT debate. You are talking about what the augments themselves do (from a "power" and/or "effectiveness" viewpoint, not a variety/diversity one). Which is a relevant discussion too, regardless of having extra augment slot or not. But which also is irrelevant regarding the point that an additional augment slot really, logically, mathematically, truly, absolutely WOULD ADD MORE VARIETY. How powerful and how fun that variety is, and how many players would prefer using that new variety (instead of indulging in their meta/power fantasy) is another question. I agree with you that this discussion is also quite relevant, but it does not detract from the mathematical fact that we need an augment slot (or slots) in order to immediately get more variety from the already existing content.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Graavarg

[chainchompguy3]

18 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I completely agree with you, but that is a DIFFERENT debate. You are talking about what the augments themselves do (from a "power" and/or "effectiveness" viewpoint, not a variety/diversity one). Which is a relevant discussion too, regardless of having extra augment slot or not. But which also is irrelevant regarding the point that an additional augment slot really, logically, mathematically, truly, absolutely WOULD ADD MORE VARIETY. How powerful and how fun that variety is, and how many players would prefer using that new variety (instead of indulging in their meta/power fantasy) is another question.

18 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Variety is a goal in itself,

19 hours ago, Graavarg said:

but it does not detract from the mathematical fact that we need an augment slot

I think you're misunderstanding the debate, then.

If all you wish to hear is "Yes, mathematically, 8.5 choices are more than 8 choices", then there you go, yes, you are correct.

But the topic of whether or not to add an augment slot is not some singular question of "Does it add variety? Yes/no?". The goal is feeling out if it'll make the game more fun. The is a videogame. For fun. The Thread-OP, while misguided, was ultimately trying to suggest a way for the game to be more fun.

But unfortunately, Variety =/= fun. A deck of cards has more permutations than the universe has atoms. But it's still just as boring. The "fun" happens when you're limited to only the cards in your hand, the cards on the table, and thinking about what the enemy player might have. Fun is derived from many sources, but in Warframe's Modding's case, from the cathartic feeling of making interesting, meaningful, distinct choices of consequence. "Yes, sacrificing this mod-slot for this augment will hurt, but it'll change up my build, and I feel like that's a worthwhile trade". "Yes, I've figured out exactly how I want to spend the last remaining Mod-Capacity-Points in my build", etc.

The Fun comes from what we do with that variety. And that necessarily runs parallel to the discussion of "well, what CAN the player do with it?"@Birdframe_PrimeIsn't bringing up some random-but-relevant topic, they're digging into the discussion at a deeper level than you are. "Getting to the Heart of the Issue", as they say.

 

 

 

I also see a bit of a logical-leap happening here. I see your logic for how an augment-slot will lead to some amount of variety. What I don't see is how, in order to get variety, we need augment slots, and can't use something else. Heck, if I follow your own logic, and assume that Mod-slots don't factor into player power, only "Mod space Capacity" does, (this isn't the case, and hasn't been for Years), then logically we should just add 64 more normal mod-slots to every weapon/frame. Loads more variety, no need to fiddle with Augment vs not-augment discussions. Just clear and simple hard injection of variety, and player power is exactly as it was before, because supposedly only "Mod space Capacity" affects that, and it's un-touched.

This is such an obvious next-step to your own logic, I'm interested in why you haven't brought it up yet. Either you know it wouldn't work, or you just haven't actually thought about it all that much.

 

And this is all on top of the fact that "Variety", is in of itself a form of power. Adaptability is not something to be dismissed. The ability to choose between [8 strong mods] and [7 strong mods, 1 weak mod, and 1 augment] is itself a means to fine-tune oneself to a given challenge, thus allowing them to beat that challenge easier: Thus, Power.

 

 

 

Really, I could go into a whole lecture on Player-psychology, Video-game Development's endless fight to trick/control it, the nature of meaningful choices, Warframe's utter lack of Balance, and much more (and in fact, I did. But the time and effort it'd take to edit it down into something publicly readable isn't worth it, so this is the heavily-shortened version). Ultimately, I feel like I've already put way too much effort into this thread/post as-is.

Your steadfast defense of such...misguided conclusions was just interesting enough for me to comment on.

Augment-slots, if you truly think about their implications, are NOT a worthwhile solution to the game, and the Developers have long-since realized this. I appreciate that these threads necessarily provide platform for the real solutions to be voiced, but I've gotten sick of them by now, so surely the Developers/Community-Managers have.

 

Good luck, everyone.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Variety =/= fun.

Speak for yourself, my dude.

[Graavarg]

 

4 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I think you're misunderstanding the debate, then.

If all you wish to hear is "Yes, mathematically, 8.5 choices are more than 8 choices", then there you go, yes, you are correct.

But the topic of whether or not to add an augment slot is not some singular question of "Does it add variety? Yes/no?". The goal is feeling out if it'll make the game more fun. The is a videogame. For fun. The Thread-OP, while misguided, was ultimately trying to suggest a way for the game to be more fun.

But unfortunately, Variety =/= fun. A deck of cards has more permutations than the universe has atoms. But it's still just as boring. The "fun" happens when you're limited to only the cards in your hand, the cards on the table, and thinking about what the enemy player might have. Fun is derived from many sources, but in Warframe's Modding's case, from the cathartic feeling of making interesting, meaningful, distinct choices of consequence. "Yes, sacrificing this mod-slot for this augment will hurt, but it'll change up my build, and I feel like that's a worthwhile trade". "Yes, I've figured out exactly how I want to spend the last remaining Mod-Capacity-Points in my build", etc.

The Fun comes from what we do with that variety. And that necessarily runs parallel to the discussion of "well, what CAN the player do with it?"@Birdframe_PrimeIsn't bringing up some random-but-relevant topic, they're digging into the discussion at a deeper level than you are. "Getting to the Heart of the Issue", as they say.

...

No, I don't think that I am misunderstanding the discussion. But any meaningful discussion needs to start from a common set of facts or parameters in order to not just become an opinion-driven squabble and/or a screaming match, which is why I wanted to point out that an augment slot actually and factually "adds variety".

That is not the whole issue, just one of basic premises for the discussion.

Another premise is the logical conclusion that a meta-driven quest for "power" is "anti-variety" by it's very nature, as it explicitly compares "varieties" and then discards less powerful "varieties" in favor of more powerful ones (until there is only one left, the "most efficient/powerful").

I completely and absolutely agree with you that "fun" is THE most important thing, both for computer gaming in general, Warframe overall and with regard to variety. From this follows that "variety" has to be a source of fun to be a meaningful component in the game, otherwise it is mostly meaningless. Like a menu with a thousand dishes that looks very impressive, but you will only ever select between a few of them, rendering 99% of "the variety" meaningless. A meaningful version of that menu (from a variety viewpoint) would be one where you would enjoy picking new dishes to eat until you had tried most of them.

Power is also quite important and a source for fun in Warframe, since it is a game of "progression" towards handling more difficult content (tougher enemies). Difficulty increases in the starchart and later, special "more difficult" missions exist (the sortie etc.) and all "endless" mission type increase difficulty as you go on. So increasing you power and being able to handle "more" is also fun. The third of three most important "in game"-characteristics (for any computer game) is "engagement", which for some players is a more important source of fun than either "power" or "variety", but since it functions along it's own axis (just like power and variety) it is fairly irrelevant for this discussion.

To the point (and my morning coffee cup is almost empty too 🙂): Warframe has become so infused with a focus on "power" that a discussion about the importance of variety seems to veer into "but that is also about power"-territory almost immediately. That is why it is important to recognize that variety is NOT about power, and that they measure the game in so different dimensions that you can't group them, together and have a meaningful discussion. Which is why threads about "variety" tend to quickly get subsumed into the "power fantasy", instead of focusing on the fun you get explicitly from having access to and using the variety of the game content.

This "power oblitering everything else" is a quite peculiar Warframe-thing, you won't the same kind of mindset in a game like WoW (just to pick an example) about which class or setup is "the most powerful", since everyone implicitly understands that they are all "different", they play "differently" and that a large part of the fun is choosing between both classes and gear (and a lot of other stuff besides). WoW is also about "power progression" (and even about co-op), but the idea that everyone should want to play "druid" and use the same skills and gear is completely ridiculous. While in Warframe it seems to be a core goal, reaching that singular "meta top". Even in a game like LoL, which pits players vs. players and there is a pro league continuously figuring out "most powerful" stuff at a very high level and there is an active and ongoing meta-discussion, it would be quite a ridiculous concept that everyone should always use the same "meta" (in the same lane). Especially in non-pro play, where part of the fun comes from trying out all the possible champions. There are quite a lot more games to pick from, but comparing games is not actually all that useful for a meaningful discussion about "variety" in Warframe. However, in order to have that meaningful discussion you need to de-mix "the power fantasy" from "variety", as they (really) are different things.

You fall into the "power fantasy" trap when you claim that "variety" is subservient to "power", that variety is just a secondary part of the game designed only to make that all-important "power climb" more interesting. That is simply viewing the whole game through the "power fantasy"-lens, once again. It's still "all about power", and in practical terms all about selecting and DISCARDING variety in order to climb the "power fantasy"-ladder. It's about trying to find the best dish on the big menu, not about trying all of them.

I whole-heartedly agree that the "power"-dimension is an important one in Warframe, but I completely disagree with the concept that it is the singular one, or even the singular "most important" one. Playing Warframe "differently", by being able to utilize the variety (already in the game) is just as an important part.

And adding that augment slot (or even more than one slot) would allow players to use that variety better and for more fun. That the "power crazies" wouldn't use them (because they already have their "meta build") or that they "don't add even more power" is completely and totally irrelevant, from a variety point of view. An augment slot would add the option for more variety, period. And variety is important, all in itself. That a player need to step away from a "power is everything"-view of the game to actually enjoy the variety for it's own sake is a "between the ears"-problem, and while one could fault DE for continuously feeding that mindset the choice is 100% the player's.

4 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

I also see a bit of a logical-leap happening here. I see your logic for how an augment-slot will lead to some amount of variety. What I don't see is how, in order to get variety, we need augment slots, and can't use something else. Heck, if I follow your own logic, and assume that Mod-slots don't factor into player power, only "Mod space Capacity" does, (this isn't the case, and hasn't been for Years), then logically we should just add 64 more normal mod-slots to every weapon/frame. Loads more variety, no need to fiddle with Augment vs not-augment discussions. Just clear and simple hard injection of variety, and player power is exactly as it was before, because supposedly only "Mod space Capacity" affects that, and it's un-touched.

This is such an obvious next-step to your own logic, I'm interested in why you haven't brought it up yet. Either you know it wouldn't work, or you just haven't actually thought about it all that much.

...

Just had to comment this too, because your idea of 64 mod slots vs. variety is actually correct (or "true"), though maybe a tad overblown (😉). From a variety perspective, that is. If the premise would be to allow all and any players the absolute maximum use of (modded) variety, without allowing "more power", you would need to remove the limitations on usage and keep the limitations on "power". That boils down to keeping the current "mod space" and having the maximum amount of "mod slots" you could (mathematically) need. Since non-upgraded mods commonly take up more "space" than 1 and you can slot only one of each mod, the "max slots"-number is less than 64.

And no, I don't think having 30 or 40 mod slots is a good idea, but it WOULD allow more variety and diversity than the current system.

In more ways than one actually, because even if it is not necessarily significant for this thread the option of having more slots that you could forma would allow you quite a lot of more relevant builds as well (imagine having 8 slots forma'ed per every polarity). However, since forma'ed slots are as much about "power" as about "variety" that is a different discussion.

4 hours ago, chainchompguy3 said:

Really, I could go into a whole lecture on Player-psychology, Video-game Development's endless fight to trick/control it, the nature of meaningful choices, Warframe's utter lack of Balance, and much more (and in fact, I did. But the time and effort it'd take to edit it down into something publicly readable isn't worth it, so this is the heavily-shortened version). Ultimately, I feel like I've already put way too much effort into this thread/post as-is.

Your steadfast defense of such...misguided conclusions was just interesting enough for me to comment on.

Augment-slots, if you truly think about their implications, are NOT a worthwhile solution to the game, and the Developers have long-since realized this. I appreciate that these threads necessarily provide platform for the real solutions to be voiced, but I've gotten sick of them by now, so surely the Developers/Community-Managers have.

 

Good luck, everyone.

I agree with you on the psychology. Even while it is true of most forums on the might internet, "psychology factors" tend to influence the factual discussion quite a lot, and often to a degree that obscures, obfuscates or even destroys any meaningful discussion. Unless one considers it "meaningful" venting one's own feelings, pre- or misconceptions, "values" or other "mental" stuff.

As for devs, they do not exist in a vacuum where they can implement solutions that are most meaningful for players playing the game, since there are other factors involved (like "money"). They are also not über-humans (I don't know anyone at DE but I do know a few devs, and they are quite "normal" even if generally true to form: introvert and a bit nerdy). Development processes and decisions are also seldom consensus-driven, or even factually decided, there are usually core differences between "technical aspects", "content aspects" and "economical aspects", and things can get even more complicated if you add "creative aspects". The first three are all fact-driven, but they all use different sets of facts. The last one is feelings-driven, a "creative vision". While the first three can (and have to) learn to co-exist, the last one often throws all that into the blender (for good and/or bad).

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-11-11 at 9:14 AM, Graavarg said:

I don't care about the the "value" of the actual augments themselves, and would politely point out that this is a completely separate question. This thread is about adding an augment slot, not about changing what all kinds of augments do.

No, it's not about that. Adding an augment slot is not a topic that is up for discussion, it hasn't been since DE deliberately and emphatically said they won't do one.

It's about showing you, and others like you, that you don't need one and there are other things that you can do instead of that to get yourself the results you actually want.

Blindly repeating that an augment slot is needed is not only objectively wrong, since players here have directly given you multiple examples and reasoning explaining they aren't, it's also completely nonsensical in the wake of that actual fact.

The only way you will get any results. Any. Results. Is by changing the debate.

You absolutely must change the debate in order to get any change at all.

The question was asked, the answer was no, any rational person can ask why. DE have explained why.

From that point, there is only one possible way to move forward, which is to ask for something that makes your experience better without being able to have the original thing.

Toddler-screaming about the thing you want just doesn't cut it. It doesn't do anything. It only makes DE continue to maintain their 'no' verdict.

Worse, it makes DE continue using the method they have now, because for all the time they don't get given a better idea about Augments, they just repeat the exact same problems we have with Augments now.

You tried to say that what you're arguing is 'the earth is round, not flat' when you're on the exact wrong side of that debate. When science and observable fact tells everyone that the world is round, the flat-earthers are the crazy ones.

So when DE's words and observable facts say that you won't get a dedicated augment slot, you're the proverbial flat-earther in this debate.

Find something else.

Find something that works.

It's tired, it's done, you lost this whole debate before it even started.

We're giving you different topics and debates, because this one has failed.

[Leqesai]

While having an augment slot would be a nice QOL change, it would also be a straight (and somewhat inconsistent) increase to player power. Way I see it the inconsistency of augment utility/usefulness makes a dedicated slot very difficult to implement fairly. The frames with "mandatory" augments see a flat bonus while frames without augments and/or useful augments would see basically no benefit. 

Seems like it would not be beneficial to dedicate dev time into something that has wildly disproportionate benefits. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Seems like it would not be beneficial to dedicate dev time into something that has wildly disproportionate benefits. 

That's correct.
An augment only slot means that the augments would need to be re-coded to also fit into an augment only slot which has deeper balance concerns than simply adding a slot as it also means that a slot is potentially freed up among the main 8 slots. 
That essentially becomes the "2 cake" solution to the question of how to "have your cake and eat it too".
 
The game is balanced on 9 slots (1 aura and 8 mod slots) and has been since 2014 when ability mods were discontinued along with the removal of 2 warframe slots.

 

For those keeping track, Warframe was originally balanced for 1 augment, 6 mods, and 4 ability mods.
When the ability mods were removed they ostensibly gave players a hefty buff by allowing us to keep 2 mod slots (for those that weren't min-maxing by avoiding slotting weak abilities)

So for those intent on getting an augment slot? DE already gave you 2 of them—In 2014.

[(XBOX)Darkskytzo]

well... not everyone has the same playstyle, so for most more slots would be amazing to have for our frames/companions/weapons etc... and then there's the vets who make it work with what they have. it's a double edged sword.

[Aruquae]

Still think an augment slot would add more variety

Which will admittedly add more power, but at the same time we’re already OP without an augment slot.  

[PR1D3]

On 2023-11-05 at 10:39 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

We've never needed augment slots less than we do now.  Archon shards and more recent arcanes offer ways to beef up our stats without mods. 

For real. Before shards I could even fit 1 augment into most builds. Now? I'm at the point where I can fit 2 augments if I wanted to.

[Marvelous_A]

I used to oppose it but honestly now I don't see the point of not allowing a dedicated augment slot. 80% of augments will still not be worth it anyway, but at least some of them will actually be viable in a build and that's a good thing. All worthwhile or necessary augments are really just bandaids that should have come with the ability in the first place, so more reason to have an augment slot because we shouldn't need to waste 1 of 8 slots for a bandaid.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Marvelous_A

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

You know, i only suggested a Focus skill tree so that things like Wisps tri Mote could be Earned as a free addition upon completing a branch

Aswell as a buff to the Operator to go with the Warframe on the other branch

Then Warframes could be different based on that instead of just Abilities or default stats

It would be balanced by the fact you have to reach it ie Operator and Transference

Better yet an actual reason to focus on Focus

Edited November 20, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89