We need an augment slot

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

but it feels weird having an augment for just, pulling in loot.

That's because it's a legacy augment, from a time when it was actually meta. DE didn't like the meta they created and nerfed it so hard that multiple frames didn't recover until reworks were done years later.

20 hours ago, Waeleto said:

again like i said before that'd require DE to actually implement those functions in the base kit and rework the augments that originally did that function which i'll be very honest i'm not expecting to happen

Okay, dude, seriously.

There is a difference here.

'Not expecting to happen' still makes any suggestion there a possibility. Which makes that more likely to happen than a dedicated Augment slot, which DE have actively said they won't do.

Look at Hydroid, they literally did exactly what you're saying you're not expecting to happen; reworked the Abilities to have some of the Augments as base functions, then changed the Augments to make them more worth having. Along with the other changes.

It's time to just let this go.

Either an Augment does enough to be worth a full Mod slot, or it doesn't.

A Dedicate Slot doesn't account for that, nor does it account for our limited Mod Points on builds that can already be tight, and it doesn't give any of the flexibility in a build that you think it does, because the free space will just be filled by the next-in-line for the exact same build you were going for all along.

[Graavarg]

On 2023-11-05 at 5:19 PM, Waeleto said:

I know that DE said no before but we REALLY need an augment slot and i'm tired of pretending that we don't

Yes, we do. Though we don't need more mod space, just the augment slot(s).

It's quite simple: the amount of "mod space" limits power, the amount of "mod slots" limits variety.

Anyone claiming that more variety would be generally "bad for Warframe" has to be straight-out bonkers.

It would be quite easy to add more variety (in the form of augment-only slot(s)) without adding more power, and that would be one heck of a "win-win".

As for the "I don't use augments"-crowd: Who cares, and why should you care about hindering other players from using them.

*** Addition ***

As for the "we don't need more power"-crowd: Of course we don't. We didn't even need Shards, not for "power". We haven't needed "more power" since I don't know when. But what boggles my mind is how anyone with half a brain can state "we don't need more power", "augments are not powerful" and "so we don't need augments" in the same post. It is a truly illogical  and senseless mindspace, that one. And just to make everything crystal: augments are FLAVOR, not POWER.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Graavarg

[Hypernaut1]

10 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Yes, we do. Though we don't need more mod space, just the augment slot(s).

It's quite simple: the amount of "mod space" limits power, the amount of "mod slots" limits variety.

Anyone claiming that more variety would be generally "bad for Warframe" has to be straight-out bonkers.

It would be quite easy to add more variety (in the form of augment-only slot(s)) without adding more power, and that would be one heck of a "win-win".

As for the "I don't use augments"-crowd: who cares, and why should you care about hindering other players from using them.

More slots and capacity decrease variety. 

What players are experiencing here is called "tough choices". And in the long run, that's better for modding. 

Warframe modding shouldn't be dumbed down like weapon modding. There's barely any tough choices to make when modding a weapon. You can pretty much slot everything you need with room to play around with. 

With a Warframe, you actually have to take into consideration what you slot and learn to compensate for any deficits.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

(Why do I need to slot in Greedy Pull instead of it being a baseline feature when an ability like Airburst pulls in loot and breaks containers simultaneously without one)
Yes, I know Mag has an 8 meter vacuum + our pets, but it feels weird having an augment for just, pulling in loot.

I was questioning Airburst pulling in loot.  I just did a quick Sim test and it did not.  So it'd be interesting to me if it's doing it under other conditions.  I don't play Zephyr, so that wouldn't be an enormous shock.

As background, I have a theory that DE nerfed injected Pull's range to 12.5m largely because of Greedy Pull.  Obviously that theory should be tossed in the bin if they left another injectable loot gathering ability with 100m range and a pretty good radius.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Better idea would be making some of the weaker less desirable augments into exilus mods.

I think the problem there is with the subjective nature of doing that. As I've learned from a vet when I was a Warframe youngun, my augment choices were for my specific style of play at that time. I honestly couldn't tell you which mods would not make the cut.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 3 horas, Tiltskillet dijo:

I was questioning Airburst pulling in loot.  I just did a quick Sim test and it did not.  So it'd be interesting to me if it's doing it under other conditions.  I don't play Zephyr, so that wouldn't be an enormous shock.

Well that's weird, I recall using Zephyr when the Zariman came out precisely to break containers on big areas and drag in all the loot effortlessly.
Maybe I'm wrong about the loot pull or it got changed?

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Anyone claiming that more variety would be generally "bad for Warframe" has to be straight-out bonkers.

We're not claiming that more variety would be bad.

We're pointing out that a Dedicated Augment Slot doesn't create variety. All it does is allow another mod, the next choice in line, to make the exact same build as before more powerful. Not a single player out there is going to say 'Oh, I have an extra slot now, let's put in that utility mod I saw four years ago.' They're going to say 'Oh, that's good, I can min-max just a little more of this stat I'm going for.'

More variety would be making the Augments actually do something more, rather than either being a purely additional function that makes the ability better, or being a straight band-aid.

A good suggestion from another thread was to make Augments be like slotting a mini upgrade tree. You put Endo in to get the full effects, but you complete challenges (like Incarnon challenges) based on using the ability in order to unlock new stats, like more Range or Strength just for that Ability, with the final unlock being a functional addition to the ability. That way the Augment is always useful for that ability, even if the actual addition is not very good.

So it would then be absolutely worth using a regular Mod slot, it would cost a normal amount of mod points, the investment into it is both the Endo and the game time, instead of some silly unlocking device and slotting all four Ability Augments could potentially result in compensating for the other mods you would have slotted, because the Augments are buffing the abilities instead.

A change like that has some real possibilities, and would provide some actual build variety, since you could treat each one like an Incarnon tree that has different stats and different functions to choose from depending on whether you're actually using it as an Augment or just running it for the bonus stats.

A dedicated augment slot doesn't have any of the potential that introducing a new system would have.

Oh, Edit:

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I was questioning Airburst pulling in loot.  I just did a quick Sim test and it did not.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Well that's weird, I recall using Zephyr when the Zariman came out precisely to break containers on big areas and drag in all the loot effortlessly.

Air Burst affects loot that hasn't been 'placed' yet. So broken containers and so on create loot that pops out, and then is placed on the Nav Mesh where it lands, enemy drops are not affected because they're already placed on the nav-mesh since they're marked to fall where the enemy died.

I play Zephyr... a little too much... and my annoyance is that it makes Ayatan Stars go flying and often land in places where they can't be picked up without squeezing into a corner and clipping over to its 'Press X' range.

Makes her a great box-buster for loot, but doesn't help so much when looting enemies.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Air Burst affects loot that hasn't been 'placed' yet. So broken containers and so on create loot that pops out, and then is placed on the Nav Mesh where it lands, enemy drops are not affected because they're already placed on the nav-mesh since they're marked to fall where the enemy died.

Got it, 👍

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 hours ago, Graavarg said:

augments are FLAVOR, not POWER.

The only way you can say this and believe it is if you have forgotten that strong augments exist.  Here's just one example:

Without this mod, Crush is already well-worth using.  It provides temporary CC, outputs damage, and caps my entire squad's overshields (including my pet).  This single mod makes Crush even stronger by giving it:

1. a cast speed buff
2. a powerful armor strip
3. a snare

There's no reasonable argument to be had as to whether this is power or not.  This is power.

[Reitrix]

16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

He doesnt need it since he can benefit from regular shields just the same as anyone else by keeping the gate up in other ways through modding. It is just that capacitance is so good that there is no reason to not run it instead of regular shield focused mods. And while Enox need the augment for a specific playstyle she doesnt need it to perform well. It is like saying you need Duality, but you only need it for one type of playstyle and the frame does fine without those playstyles. Though in the case of Enox 4 augment it would be more appropriate to just make it part of the skill in a touch up of the kit and change the augment into something else based on which form you are in.

I'd rather see them make those bandaids part of the kit. Unless of course you think a dedicated bandaid slot should be fully free when it comes to capacity costs etc. If not the slot wouldnt really solve much since we only have a specific amount of capacity, which is mostly always maxed through modding in general.

Regarding Fused Reservoirs. Yes it does deserve the spot of a regular mod considering what it does. It is effectively a massive cast speed buff to the frame since she casts 3 seperate skills in a single cast instead. Which does alot for her overall, since she suddenly goes from a frame mostly suited for holding points to a very mobile frame that is no longer restricted if she wants to reposition. No need to worry about having to go back to rebuff since you can just dump 3 new motes instantly wherever you are and so on.

I agree that those bandaid mods SHOULD be part of the kit. But we live in a world with people who believe otherwise and think the base ability as is has no flaws whatsoever. 

While i absolutely regard Fused as 100% QoL after using it, i also think its a bandaid that should be part of the ability normally. 
In the specific example you give on it regarding mobile missions, Its not hard to just drop a new mote where you stand to refresh buffs rather than run around looking for a placed one. 
Which is why i regard it as a straight QoL mod. It saves a couple of clicks in a very specific situation (you can absolutely throw down all 3 motes in a heartbeat if you are quick with your inputs) and thats all.

However, This divide in our opinions is specifically why i suggested such mods be added to a dedicated Mod Slot. 

DE will never add augment effects to baseline abilities, even when the augment is designed to literally fix the ability in the first place, such as Energy Transfer fixing the pointless penalty of swapping aspects ... On the frame designed around swapping aspects dynamically. 

There are also the ones for removing passives like for Nezha and Zephyr. The only reason those have built in Power Strength is because there are those who dislike the passive effects on those frames and DE didnt want to punish a player too hard to opting out of it (power strength is literally only a replacement if you were using Power Drift as your Exilus and not literally any other Exilus, so its still a kick in the teeth if you have enough PS from other sources to not need Power Drift)

Repair Dispensary is a good example of an Augment that came out to fix something (Dead Sentinels) and is right now literally worthless thanks to the companion rework. Making it baseline with its revive boost effect would be neat, But ill take just being able to slot it into a dedicated slot for that kind of thing. 

There is value without adding power in allowing certain, very specific augment mods to be freely equippable without hampering your actual stats.

Augments were supposed to be trade offs. 
The problem is, Many Augments are simply so incredibly powerful that NOT equipping it is being stupid while many other Augments are so stupidly underpowered that they arent worth any mod slots at all. 

A simple exilus style system, where those underpowered augments are allowed into a build without burning a mod slot while others, like Vorunas new Augment can compete for space with regular mods. 
You can even keep the capacity cost for mods in those slots. In fact, i would recommend them to keep the cost. 

For powerful gamechanger augments, you sacrifice a mod slot. 
For weak, incredibly situational or pure bandaid/QoL augments, you only pay in capacity. 

It allows for DE to make both kinds of Augments for our frames without just relegating those weaker augments to the bin. 
Heck, it lets DE make Augments that just change the visual style of an ability without needing the player to sacrifice stats for it. 

[Jarriaga]

Umbral Mods need their own slots as well. I should be able to benefit from the health, armor, and ability strength bandaids without sacrificing any real mod slot in my builds.

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, Reitrix said:

For powerful gamechanger augments, you sacrifice a mod slot. 
For weak, incredibly situational or pure bandaid/QoL augments, you only pay in capacity. 

Keeping the capacity cost would result in adding a dedicated slot for those mods rather pointless since you'd end up in the same place as now, replacing a normal mod in order to be able to squeeze out the capacity needed for the augment. I cant think of a single frame that I use now where I'd be able to switch over an augment to a dedicated slot and be able to place another regular mod, or another augment in the normal slot since I'm pretty much out of capacity or so close to it that I wont have enough for another mod. Unless I go and do something like slot Steel Charge, which at that point kinda renders the dedicated slot moot since I just gave up my beneficial aura just to squeeze out more capacity.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

Nah, we just need them all be compatible with the Prime Sure Footed slot as some suggested.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 16 horas, Birdframe_Prime dijo:

Air Burst affects loot that hasn't been 'placed' yet. So broken containers and so on create loot that pops out, and then is placed on the Nav Mesh where it lands, enemy drops are not affected because they're already placed on the nav-mesh since they're marked to fall where the enemy died.

That explains that, thank you!

Also, now that you mention enemy drops not being affected by Airburst, are they affected by Tornadoes?
Because I noticed there's an incredibly rare object in the game that I got to scan only once precisely by playing Zephyr; a Granum Crown container.
If am not mistaken, I killed a treasurer and this dropped a cylindrical object, but since he died in the middle of Tornadoes, the container instead of popping the moment it appeared (because they do so when they touch the floor), was lifted in the air and I got to scan it.

Still, can't be found in the Codex, so I'd dare say it's the hardest object to scan in the entire game.

[Reitrix]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Keeping the capacity cost would result in adding a dedicated slot for those mods rather pointless since you'd end up in the same place as now, replacing a normal mod in order to be able to squeeze out the capacity needed for the augment. I cant think of a single frame that I use now where I'd be able to switch over an augment to a dedicated slot and be able to place another regular mod, or another augment in the normal slot since I'm pretty much out of capacity or so close to it that I wont have enough for another mod. Unless I go and do something like slot Steel Charge, which at that point kinda renders the dedicated slot moot since I just gave up my beneficial aura just to squeeze out more capacity.

My Equinox build has 4 capacity left over and only 2 Forma installed. 
At a glance, i can create around 15 more capacity just by dropping a couple more formas in. 

Equinox isnt alone. Majority of my frames can easily generate more capacity than mod slots can consume. 

This is why i suggested leaving the capacity cost in those augment slots. 
You'd still have to 'make a sacrifice', in this case an extra forma instead of sacrificing critical stats for an otherwise underpowered or situational augment. 
You still have that 'tradeoff' augments are supposed to have, just in a slightly different way than the tradeoff for equipping something like Vorunas augment.
You're simply deciding if that QoL Augment is worth spending an extra Forma to create the capacity for it.  

[Rakosta_Kai]

10 hours ago, Reitrix said:

DE will never add augment effects to baseline abilities

Yet, they just did exactly that with Hydroid's Barrage...

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

Yet, they just did exactly that with Hydroid's Barrage...

Yet they changed the augment as well so it still isn't it's core functionality, in turn keeping choice of base vs more powerful at the expense of a mod slot.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yet they changed the augment as well so it still isn't it's core functionality, in turn keeping choice of base vs more powerful at the expense of a mod slot.

I do hope that "Yet" wasn't intended to be a complaint—Because making both an ability and an augment relevant doesn't actually sound like something to complain about.

You should have to choose between base and more powerful/powerful in different ways at the expense of a mod slot because that was the intent of Augments to begin with.
 

[Reitrix]

50 minutes ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

Yet, they just did exactly that with Hydroid's Barrage...

Not quite. 
IIRC, The original augment added corrosive status but not Corrosive damage, it still dealt Impact the same way the new viral one doesn't deal viral damage, just the status.
When they reworked his whole kit to be about Corrosive, the Augment applying Corrosive status would be pretty stupid. 
The rework invalidated the purpose of the augment, not that they added the augment into the ability. 
If they added the augment in that way, it'd still be dealing Impact damage. 

Thats on a different level compared to DE just taking Energy Transfer or Fused and making it baseline while touching nothing else. They have never added an augments effects to a baseline ability before.

If anything, Its an example of DE using an Augment as a baindaid (Impact is worthless, so Augment gave it a useful status) and yet it still wasn't worth using Barrage. Thus the rework. 

I would much rather see DE add those bandaid mods into the base effect.
However, utilizing augment slots in the way ive suggested previously not only means they dont have to do that, it also opens the door for DE to make Augments that aren't just raw power buffs and for those augments to actually find a way into ones build without handicapping you for it. 

There simply wouldn't be the divide that exists right now with Augments that are super powerful vs weak never used ones. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Reitrix

[Jarriaga]

45 minutes ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

I do hope that "Yet" wasn't intended to be a complaint—Because making both an ability and an augment relevant doesn't actually sound like something to complain about.

You should have to choose between base and more powerful/powerful in different ways at the expense of a mod slot because that was the intent of Augments to begin with.
 

Not a complaint. Just pointing out that replacing an ability with its augment while adding a new augment into the game means DE is not adding the augment to the base function unless the possibility of augmentation ceases to exist. I know it's a technicality though.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Rakosta_Kai]

Allow me to expand a bit more slowly, in this case, as it appears you have somewhat missed the point of your own comment.

This is (the important part of) what you said.

12 hours ago, Reitrix said:

DE will never add augment effects to baseline abilities

Before Update: Barrage required an Augment to strip armor.
After Update: Barrage does not require an augment to strip armor because the Augment got baked into the ability.


As to the rest of your initial sentence, similar arguments for any number of other "band-aid" Augments can be made but the fact remains that we now know that if DE sees a need, they aren't above making the change.

This suggests that they either do not see a need or have not, as yet, addressed it.
The feedback forum is probably the best place to make that argument for visibility's sake.

1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

IIRC, The original augment added corrosive status but not Corrosive damage, it still dealt Impact the same way the new viral one doesn't deal viral damage, just the status.

You do not, imo, remember correctly.
Corroding Barrage dealt Corrosive Damage.  The description literally read " Each projectile has a 100% chance of inflicting a corrosive status effect."
Put simply Corrosive status is Corrosive damage. 100% status chance = status damage.

Viral Tempest simply deals it's damage with both status effects (corrosive and viral) applied.

The status being applied to mobs is simply an aspect of the status in question
 

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Just pointing out that replacing an ability with its augment while adding a new augment into the game means DE is not adding the augment to the base function unless the possibility of augmentation ceases to exist. I know it's a technicality though.

With respect, It isn't so much a technicality as it is either semantics or needlessly pedantic depending on applied tone.
Thank you for sharing though.


Either way, I think DE being willing to make clearly needed adjustments( in actuality and without the need for timey-wimey temporal mechanics) is a good thing and I do hope they don't just stop at Barrage. 



 

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Also, now that you mention enemy drops not being affected by Airburst, are they affected by Tornadoes?

Yes, because of the same rules; the enemies aren't grounded to the nav-mesh at that point (just like the items that pop out of containers) so they have no fixed location for the drop to trigger, which allows the physics of Tornado to lift those drops as well. It's not entirely consistent as Tornado is supposed to drop dead bodies, but it does happen.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Reitrix said:

My Equinox build has 4 capacity left over and only 2 Forma installed. 
At a glance, i can create around 15 more capacity just by dropping a couple more formas in. 

Equinox isnt alone. Majority of my frames can easily generate more capacity than mod slots can consume. 

This is why i suggested leaving the capacity cost in those augment slots. 
You'd still have to 'make a sacrifice', in this case an extra forma instead of sacrificing critical stats for an otherwise underpowered or situational augment. 
You still have that 'tradeoff' augments are supposed to have, just in a slightly different way than the tradeoff for equipping something like Vorunas augment.
You're simply deciding if that QoL Augment is worth spending an extra Forma to create the capacity for it.  

That really depends on the builds and frames. So giving a dedicated slot that costs capacity would still result in the same dilemma, since people min-max and already juggle capacity along with the mod slot. In the end we cannot get more than 74(78) capacity, and with expensive mods in a min-maxed build that capacity is often used up. While you might have the majority of frames with capacity to spare I can safely say I experience the exact opposite. I'm sitting with min maxed builds that utilize partially ranked mods to match the capacity pool. If I was a player that just used maxed mods I'd be over the cap on some frames.

[Graavarg]

On 2023-11-07 at 11:23 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

We're pointing out that a Dedicated Augment Slot doesn't create variety. All it does is allow another mod, the next choice in line, to make the exact same build as before more powerful. Not a single player out there is going to say 'Oh, I have an extra slot now, let's put in that utility mod I saw four years ago.' They're going to say 'Oh, that's good, I can min-max just a little more of this stat I'm going for.'

This isn't quite true. First of all, if you have the augment in your build and move it to the new augment slot, you are still limited to the same mod space. So unless you have forma'ed and modded your warframe in a way that leaves you with unused mod space, you actually cannot put another mod ("next choice in line") in the now freed slot. In order to do that, you would have to remove another "high-mod capacity" mod  from your and replace that mod with two "lesser" mods.

That is why get more variety. Which btw is not a matter of opinion, it is a logical mathematical fact (by freeing up and using the mod slot previously used for the augment for another mod, you've just exchanged 25% of your mod slots for other mods).

The argument that it would "change nothing" because you will immediately get a new meta (utilizing the new augment slot) is disingenious. First of all there is always "a meta" (that is also a logical, mathematical fact). Secondly it is completely irrelevant, because meta'ists will always meta anyway and this change is not for them, it is a change aimed at the players that want variety in their builds.

I'll repeat this because it is a core argument: there is only one meta (though theoretically that "most effective" setup could be two equally effective but different builds), which makes meta the anti-thesis of variety. Meta has NOTHING to do with variety, and would use an augment slot for one thing only: that single most effective build. However, for all those players NOT fixated on the meta and especially for those players that enjoy VARIETY, one or more augment-specific slots would mean a great deal. So release your mind, momentarily, from the meta/power-fixation and THINK: it is a mathematical and logical FACT that you can achieve MORE VARIETY with 8 slots and 1 augment slot than with 8 slots only. It adds that increased potential for variety for every single player in the game, but if and how you use that potential is, of course, up to you.

So, claiming that an added augment-specific slot would NOT increase variety is, logically speaking, a false statement. It simply isn't true.

Finally, I didn't pick your response to pick on you personally/specifically, rather the opposite (your arguments were clear and the post was well-written = easy to comment).

Edited November 9, 2023 by Graavarg

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

40 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

This isn't quite true. First of all, if you have the augment in your build and move it to the new augment slot, you are still limited to the same mod space. So unless you have forma'ed and modded your warframe in a way that leaves you with unused mod space, you actually cannot put another mod ("next choice in line") in the now freed slot. In order to do that, you would have to remove another "high-mod capacity" mod  from your and replace that mod with two "lesser" mods.

That is why get more variety. Which btw is not a matter of opinion, it is a logical mathematical fact (by freeing up and using the mod slot previously used for the augment for another mod, you've just exchanged 25% of your mod slots for other mods).

↓

Oozing variety, also before saying I'm just doing meta stuff that's literally what people would do, get more power, also don't forget that a chunk of people just grab builds from YouTube instead of making something themselves.

There's not much variety now and that won't change after another free slot.