The 2023 usage stats are out: Revenant on the nerfing block

[Aruquae]

“Oh no, it’s too popular! Time to nerf!”

Sounds like your mindset here, I recommend reading what others have stated for the reason Wukong got nerfed. He even got a compensation buff to fix his sucky stick. 

[Aldain]

I don't see much of a reason to nerf him since the increase in popularity is most likely incidental with things like Netracells being added (and apparently being a such a pain in groups that I legit never see calls for it in LFG chat, ergo solo durability is a must).

Worst I could see happening is the Augment getting smacked down from 50% Strength to something more like 25-30%, since that amount of Strength may well be a bit overkill.

[Joylesstuna]

The only part that kinda bothers me if just how much better he is at tanking then nezha, rhino and a few others. Maybe a slight adjustment to mesmer skin would be healthy for variety sake. It really is an invincibility button.

[Aenris]

I don't think they will nerf him just for being the most used of 2023

Wukong had a lot of faculties that allowed players to be pretty much AFK. And while DE has stated that they don't like abilities in the vein of "Set and forget" (I'm talking about Ember's old ultimate) I don't think Revenant goes directly into that spot.

Maybe he is overpowered (I don't know, haven't played it a lot) but he's probably in the same bin as Saryn, where it is a frame with a very strong ability/kit and makes it very desirable, but it's not disrupting everybody else's gameplay.

[TeaHands]

[SneakyErvin]

The usage stats are vastly different though for Revenant compared to previous years for Wukong. And while Mesmer Skin is powerful, the point where it becomes useful over health tanking or other skill based tanking methods you are in content DE arent really considering balancing the game around. If you plan on doing the content the game has to offer overall, which includes Archons and Netracells, frames like Lavos and Kullervo are just as strong at not giving a S#&$ about incoming damage.

35 minutes ago, Joylesstuna said:

The only part that kinda bothers me if just how much better he is at tanking then nezha, rhino and a few others. Maybe a slight adjustment to mesmer skin would be healthy for variety sake. It really is an invincibility button.

Those frames have other ways that help their survival, like heavy CC. They also provide so much more damage through their buffs and debuffs. Revenant doesnt have a real edge elsewhere. He has a decent AoE skill, mediocre CC and a movement skill. And while reave can scale infinitely, the point where that becomes useful you are also in content so high that DE doesnt bother with balance for it. It also isnt an exactly fast or efficient way to kill since it requires setup and is practically capped to the number of enemies that Enthrall can affect at a single time, which is 7.

However, I wouldnt mind if Revenant had his Mesmer Skin turned into a 90% DR with a duration, where enemies killed while stunned by the skin grants Revenant Overguard.

I played Revenant for a while again after WitW released since he is a nice frontline frame for melee. But I grew tired of having to rebuff Mesmer so often that I went back over to Kullervo. A frame that has high armor, high HP, a heal that grants overguard which is also instant cast, deals slash procs, builds combo and grants a brief invulnerability window. Simply just part of the rotation and not really something you need to keep an eye on. In addition to that he pumps out such silly amounts of damage, even more if you add Roar.

[Slayer-.]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The usage stats are vastly different though for Revenant compared to previous years for Wukong. And while Mesmer Skin is powerful, the point where it becomes useful over health tanking or other skill based tanking methods you are in content DE arent really considering balancing the game around. If you plan on doing the content the game has to offer overall, which includes Archons and Netracells, frames like Lavos and Kullervo are just as strong at not giving a S#&$ about incoming damage.

Those frames have other ways that help their survival, like heavy CC. They also provide so much more damage through their buffs and debuffs. Revenant doesnt have a real edge elsewhere. He has a decent AoE skill, mediocre CC and a movement skill. And while reave can scale infinitely, the point where that becomes useful you are also in content so high that DE doesnt bother with balance for it. It also isnt an exactly fast or efficient way to kill since it requires setup and is practically capped to the number of enemies that Enthrall can affect at a single time, which is 7.

However, I wouldnt mind if Revenant had his Mesmer Skin turned into a 90% DR with a duration, where enemies killed while stunned by the skin grants Revenant Overguard.

I played Revenant for a while again after WitW released since he is a nice frontline frame for melee. But I grew tired of having to rebuff Mesmer so often that I went back over to Kullervo. A frame that has high armor, high HP, a heal that grants overguard which is also instant cast, deals slash procs, builds combo and grants a brief invulnerability window. Simply just part of the rotation and not really something you need to keep an eye on. In addition to that he pumps out such silly amounts of damage, even more if you add Roar.

Bravo. 👍

[quxier]

14 hours ago, Lord_Chibi said:

14 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

DE doesn't seem to be triggered to easy immortality due to how many tools we have to reach Revenant's mesmer skin levels. But if Revenant can clear rooms effortlessly thus ruining other people's horde-clearing experience? Yeah, that will get it on the chopping block for sure.

Dagath, Voruna, Protea seem to disagree lol...

 

But seriously, if Voruna 4 is triggered by the pet dying, why can't you recast the 4 to revive it? It wouldn't be *that* op anyways...

It's like "roll a dice". One frames are "powerful" and other have "bad abilities". It's like 2 different people creating them.

ps. sometimes it's not that extreme

14 hours ago, Lord_Chibi said:

14 hours ago, Kaiga said:

For 2023, revenant prime slightly beats out wukong prime to be the most used frame, with those two taking a commanding lead ahead of the other most-used frames. 

Wukong held the top spot previously, in addition to his powerful passive, mobility, and good stats, his 1 provided attention-free, consistent DPS, making the game much easier than it normally would be (though since the nerf, the AI of his clone suffers from numerous targeting bugs like ignoring being shot at, but that's another thread)

And revenant, since his buff has now reached this level of trivialization- a single cast of his mesmer skin with sufficient strength can be made to last an entire mission, even more unkillable than wukong, and frees up enough mod space to be even stronger of a helminth buff tank.

 

So the question is- is revenant next to be given the nerf hammer, for making the game too easy?

The top usage items are generally considered to be up for changes. DE balances around equip rates, with popular weapons getting dispo hammered every mainline, is revenant due for a rebalance?

Expand  

If Revenant gets nerfed then everyone will hop back to Inaros anyways...

That's who everyone used before the introduction of Revenant Prime/Revenant's Mesmer Skin buff.

I doubt it. People use shields more than hp nowadays.

13 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Actually I was pretty surprise to see Revenant being one of the most used frame in 2023. Him being even more popular than wuclone was crazy.

Revenant was my second most used frames (only because I was lazy to learn new frames between MR10 to 20) and tbh I do not understand his appeal. Yes he is immortal, just like 10+ other frames in the game. Why him?

He has no armor strip. He has no nuke. He has no damage buff. His so-called CC is underwhelming. His 3 one-shot requires setup. He has nothing to offer to his team. 

I understand he was useful in archon hunt but com'on, archon hunt? Just because there is a "no revive" condition and everyone cannot live without Revenant?

And I do not think Revenant deserves a nerf because, if you ask me, his kit is not particularly good already. The most I can do is to reduce his mesmer skin window from 1s to 0.5s.  

It's just it works (his immortality) on demand (just need some energy). You press button and except Nulliies, toxic and few enemies you are immortal for some time.

 

Other frame's immortality are not the best:

- Inaros - big hp bag, no shield gate, so you can even get "one shot" with strong enemy

- Styanax + augment requires lot of energy and it's just status immunity + additional health

- Nidus has unding passive but you need stacks first, they reset after death or Grasp focus ability

-  Shield gate meta needs you to spam abilities to be immortal, as shields are not restored when getting hit

11 hours ago, Pakaku said:

13 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Revenant was my second most used frames (only because I was lazy to learn new frames between MR10 to 20) and tbh I do not understand his appeal. Yes he is immortal, just like 10+ other frames in the game. Why him?

Because when they buffed Mesmer skin, that got a lot of attention, and a lot people only go by what the popular youtuber talks at them about rather than deciding for themselves

Maybe they decide for themselves that this youtube guy talking right? Haha.

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Make it so Mesmer has a lot fewer charges, make Eximus just ignore it so he's not immune to literally everything, there's a lot you can do really.

So... let's make him vulnerable to enemeis that we need to be aware of as they are dungersous. The enemies that are in larger quantities in "end game". That makes pretty reliable ability to useless "perk".

To be honest immortality shouldn't be issue if it's like in warframe - stack X items and you do Y damage or take Z damage without dying.

[tucker_d_dawg]

The usage stats being broken into prime/nonprime/umbra is stupid.
They should report only on combined usage when considering any changes to kit.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

If he does get nerfed it won't surprise me, but several frames like Hildryn, Styanax etc are also pretty good at not dying, and it sedms to me that nigh immortality is intentional, or at least not worth a nerf on it's own. Its abilities snd interactions that fight for you that DE are iffy about and revenant doesn't really have that:

-Enthalled enemies are susceptible to friendly fire and don't help any more than Nekros' shadows do. They arent scaled up by the player in terms of damge so they can't clear the room for you, they're just for drawing agro.

-Mesmer Skin is a great ability, especially with the Augment, but YOU still have to do all the shooting and stabbing. Again, he isn't the only frame that's unkillable in most content, though I think its also worth pointing out that DE may consider countering these abilities with deactivations on being hit, like we saw with the 60 eye boss, who folded many an optimistic Revenant main lol.

- Reave needs a buff if anything, and is healing all that useful on him when Mesmer Skin exists? I hvent subsumed on ny Revenant but i'm guessing either this or his 4 is what gets scrapped.

- Danse Macabre can be fun, but unless you do a stupidly niche meme build, it falls off on Steel Path, or even before that. Some people probably don't even know it has 2 modes..

All in all, I think he's powerful, but doesnt seem to break the game or intrude on others, so he'll probably be left as is, but if he does get a nerf it'll be to Mesmer Skin, 100%

[SDGDen]

when looking at normal + prime frames combined, revenant isnt even in the top 3.

it's:

#1: volt
#2: wukong
#3: excal
#4: saryn
#5: revenant.

it's more likely that volt will get some fixes, he tends to end up being weirdly optimal for a lot of niche things and as a result he's very popular.

btw, #6, wisp, is only 0.4% less than revenant. so if revenant gets hit, expect wisp to also get hit.

 

personally, im more excited about buffs to the bottom 5 (Excluding qorvex because he's too new):

#50: sevagoth
#51: atlas
#52: banshee
#53: nyx
#54: caliban

 

[quxier]

25 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

The usage stats being broken into prime/nonprime/umbra is stupid.
They should report only on combined usage when considering any changes to kit.

Except from Umbra, I guess it's for simplicity. They have stats for frame X and frame X Prime so they just show it.

17 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

#50: sevagoth

I wonder how Gloom fares.

18 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

#54: caliban

But we will have Nidus rework/change. ;)

[SDGDen]

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

I wonder how Gloom fares.

tbh, sevagoth (alongside grendel) falls into the category of frames where their subsume is their strongest and most desirable ability. kinda just sad but it's hard to get most of the other parts of their kit to be a subsume because they're so tightly integrated. 

[Tiltskillet]

57 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

The usage stats being broken into prime/nonprime/umbra is stupid.

Nah, both ways are useful.  And if it's only going to be shown one way, breaking them up is smarter.  Mostly because people can always add up the percentages if they want.   But it also lets us adjust mentally for things like starter frame usage.

Edited February 1 by Tiltskillet

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

could've easily just kneecapped the damage and made it so the Clone has to reload so there's actual downtime.

Clone does reload.  It's actually one of the many frustrating things about him, as he'll happily reload long before a magazine is empty.   I think this dates from before he was nerfed.

I agree with the general sentiment though, that he needed a nerf, but DE could have gone about it in better ways.

[Kaiga]

5 hours ago, Aruquae said:

“Oh no, it’s too popular! Time to nerf!”

Sounds like your mindset here, I recommend reading what others have stated for the reason Wukong got nerfed. He even got a compensation buff to fix his sucky stick. 

This has been the DE mindset on many occasions throughout the game's history 

[Aruquae]

Just now, Kaiga said:

This has been the DE mindset on many occasions throughout the game's history 

Only example I can see is Nova’s Null Star augment.
Any others?

[Kaiga]

Just now, Aruquae said:

Only example I can see is Nova’s Null Star augment.
Any others?

Bramma, coptering, plague zaws, zephyr bomber, catchmoon, aoe guns in general, there are many examples.

[Aruquae]

9 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Bramma, coptering, plague zaws, zephyr bomber, catchmoon, aoe guns in general, there are many examples.

Alright then… AOE and Bramma (same with Catchmoon) were being used to cheese multiple types of content. They were being abused and were already disruptive to other Tenno. Besides, they’re still useful, just not as prominent. It still clears rooms, it’s just not trivializing content.

Zephyr Bomber being popular? I know you can still copter bomb with her, but even then it’s not like you see many Zephyrs. Never heard of plague zaws ever being popular to get nerfed. These weren’t popular and clogging every single public lobby. 

[UnstarPrime]

I have yet to hear a reason that would inspire DE to nerf Revenant.  He doesn't automate the game, and all he really brings to the table is survival.  And while survival is certainly an asset, survival alone doesn't give you a nerf-worthy edge.

Beyond that, Revenant's survival kit is double-edged.  He can take any hit, but you've gotta keep inserting quarters or he'll die.  Meanwhile, there are tanks like Hildryn and Inaros who with the right mods and arcanes can just be left AFK for 10 minutes, and they'll still be alive when you get back.

Finally, Wukong hit 10% before he was nerfed.  Revenant is at a much more reasonable 5%.

So with respect, there is no reason to expect that this will be seen as a problem, and there are many reasons to suggest it won't be seen as a problem.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Never heard of plague zaws ever being popular to get nerfed.

There were some nerfs to Exodia contagion:

- super clunky use (bullet/double jump + aimglide + attack) instead of simple solution + some limits (e.g. attack + aimglide, you can attack once, or every next attack without landing is N times weaker)

- exodia don't get benefit from some stats... or something, don't remember it

Before you could, afair, spam Contagion. Now it's USELESS.

[Lord_Chibi]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

 

It's just it works (his immortality) on demand (just need some energy). You press button and except Nulliies, toxic and few enemies you are immortal for some time.

 

 

You're actually immortal while mesmer skin is active so any damage type that bypasses the ability (like toxin) will still hit you, but your hp won't drop below 2. 

Rolling guard basically gives you 100% uptime against toxin damage.

[PR1D3]

2 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

He can take any hit, but you've gotta keep inserting quarters or he'll die. 

I lol'd at this analogy. I love it.

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

There were some nerfs to Exodia contagion:

- super clunky use (bullet/double jump + aimglide + attack) instead of simple solution + some limits (e.g. attack + aimglide, you can attack once, or every next attack without landing is N times weaker)

- exodia don't get benefit from some stats... or something, don't remember it

Before you could, afair, spam Contagion. Now it's USELESS.

Ohhh yes... I remember that
A shame they nerfed it

[RichardKam]

9小时前 , quxier 说:

Other frame's immortality are not the best:

- Inaros - big hp bag, no shield gate, so you can even get "one shot" with strong enemy

- Styanax + augment requires lot of energy and it's just status immunity + additional health

- Nidus has unding passive but you need stacks first, they reset after death or Grasp focus ability

-  Shield gate meta needs you to spam abilities to be immortal, as shields are not restored when getting hit

You missed out the elephants in the room which are Rhino, Yareli and Nezha, all of which only required pressing one button.

And Rhino with augment, if stacked with enough overguard, can nuke the entire room including SP level cap demolyst and acolyte. 

If other immortality are "not the best", mesmer skin is definitely also not "the best". For argument sake, Rev also needs rolling guard to cover the tiny window of re-casting mesmer skin to achieve true immortality.